None of the subforums deal with magic items... but it seemed closer to the GM Tools section, so I'm putting my thoughts here.
I don't care much for the way stat boosting items are handled. Having the headband of Intellect give a bonus to skill points is a nice change. But making it so you only get 1 mental boost and 1 physical boost seems unnecessarily restrictive.
I realize that the Magic Items Compendium is not Open Source... but I thought that book did a fairly decent job of handling the various stat boosting items. Instead of reducing the number you can have, they put in fairly simple rules to add those stats to whatever cool item you happened to pick up.
In fact, it appears a similar formula appears in the Craft Magic Items section of Alpha 2. So... why not just allow players to add their stat bonuses to magic items? If the DM populates the encounter with equipment that isn't stat boosting, the party can modify it as appropriate later on. It seems this would achieve the same goal, without stopping players from having their Gloves of Dex, belt of strength, cloak of charisma, and headband of intellect.
And a related question. The bonus from stat boosting items stops being "temporary" after 24 hours... what does that mean? Is it still an enhancement bonus? Is it permanent? How long do you need to be separated from your Headband of Int. to lose that permanent bonus? Mechanically, why was this distinction put into the rules?
Director of Game Design
|
You can have a bonus to multiple physical mental stats, you just have to pay a bit of extra money. There is no rule I saw that stops you having a Belt of Strength +6/Constitution +6, you would just have to pay +50% more to add the constitution onto it.
This is absolutely correct. I actually wanted to add these items to the document, but I ran out of time for this release.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
You can have a bonus to multiple physical mental stats, you just have to pay a bit of extra money. There is no rule I saw that stops you having a Belt of Strength +6/Constitution +6, you would just have to pay +50% more to add the constitution onto it.
I understand the reasoning as well, you pick up some really fun items some times and have to get rid of them because you have an item you NEED in taht slot already. It always hurt me when I had an Amulet of Intellect +4 and found an Amulet of natural armor +2 and had to choose... It really sucked. Now they have made my choice easier by severely limiting the slots that the necessary items can go.
Here's the part I don't follow. If the goal is getting people to use a greater variety of magical equipment, there are (it seems) three approaches to employ:
1) 3.5 D&D give the players choices between stat boosting and other stuff. Obviously, this method has basically forced the stat boosting equipment due to the needs of the game.
2) Reduce the number of stat boosting gear a character can wear. If only two slots can hold stat boosting gear, that opens up a number of options for other equipment. This is the method employed in the Wonderous Items portion of the Alpha rules.
3) Simplify the process of adding basic equipment bonuses to other wonderous items (i.e., make it easy for a character to take that ring of jumping and turn it into a ring of jumping/protection +2 or make those boots of springing and striding into boots of springing and striding/Dex +4. This is found in both the Magic Items Compendium and in the Crafting section in Alpha 2.
Why do we need to use both option #2 and option #3? It seems to me that once people figure out that it is easy to take those gloves of storing and put a dex bonus into them, they will. In which case, does the added restriction help or hinder with building characters powerful enough to get through higher level challenges? There is a reason people tend to go for the stat boost or the AC boost over the random magical effect. Usually that reason has to do with survival (imho).
|
When can we stop with the stat boosting items already? This was actually one of the cool things about 4E. Can we remove them from the game? I'd like my heroes to be heroic in and of themselves, not because they have a fancy magic waistband.
The problem is that monsters as written assume you have certain ability scores to be effective against them. Example: The Dragons high natural armor bonus demands the melee fighter type have a high base attack bonus, the best plus possible AND as high a Str as possible. Same thing with the ST's for casters, you need that ST DC to be as high as possible to have a chance against some monster's ST's. No if you'd like to redesign monsters some, to give lower stats that could work but would make backwards compatability harder. NPC's aren't a problem other than editing equipment some
My question for JB is how do tomes/manuals of various ability boosting work here? Will they also require a "shifting" of ability points like wish does? I can understand the concern about having too high an ability concern and there is something to be said about shifting points around, but this does not feel right to me... Is this a balance to the universalist's wish 1/day abaility to prevent them from upping everyone's stat's by +1?
|
|
I am surprised noone noticed the hidden downside yet though.
If I am right then if you want to have your Helmet of Underwater Breathing/Intellect +2 then you will have to pay 225% of the cost of Intelect +2.
The cost is (Int+2)* 50% * 50% = 2.25(Int+2) [or 2(int+2) depending on a few things. I know that was an overly complex way of showing it]
I can see that for some warriors their belts are going to be their most valued items beside their weapons.
I can also see a general trend against Wizards/Clerics/Bards/Druids owning hatracks. Would you leave something worth that much unattended..?
Where are you getting the second +50% from?
|
|
+50 percent for the second enchantment on an item, +50 percent for putting a stat enhancement in the wrong slot:
Check the way affinity slots work now, putting Int/Cha/Wis on a headband or Str/Dex/Con on a belt would not add the second +50%, but putting them on the helmet you mentioned would. No one would do that rather than double/triple up on those two slots. So you are correct in that put +2 Int on a helmet would cost even more, but I don't think it would serve as a real deterrent.
If underwater is a big deal for your campaign, then by all means, adjust your campaign. Underwater is NOT a feature for most campaigns... AT ALL. I think underwater campaigns can be great and I've reviewed "The Deep" and I think Bastion's underwater adventure book, but most folks don't mess with underwater at all.
If you want to be PRPG and underwater, perhaps a ring or cloak or apparatus or necklace (that melds into the chest) or whatever.
Something I'm not clear on though.. if the idea is to encourage people to combine stat boosting gear with non-stat boosting gear... why the cost increase? That seems counter-productive to me. It encourages selling otherwise useful equipment so that the character can afford to buy the stat boosting enhancement for something else... or it discourages combining stat boosts with other things to save 1/2 the cost.
|
|
I think perhaps they should have gone the other direction - rather than limiting everything to one of two slots, they shoul have (more or less) taken the locks off and given all the stat boosters multiple homes. Something like:
Strength: waist, arms, hands, feet, shoulders
Dexterity: head, arms, hands, feet, torso
Constitution: waist, arms, torso, shoulders, neck
Intelligence: head, face, neck, shoulders
Wisdom: head, face, neck, torso
Charisma: head, hands, face, shoulders
That way you could just essentially swap out whatever you needed in order to make sure you could use whatever new toy came along... The Magic Item Compendium did some of this, and I thought it worked well - Pathfinder could simply take the same idea and go further with it.
i like the limits myself and dont really see an issue with em
I kind of agree with the "more slots" idea. Its true that it would make the item listing a little funky, but that can be dealt with.
Item of Strength: Equipment associated with heavy lifting, vigorous movement, and combat all qualify for the "Strength+2,+4,+6" enchantment. Equipment slots: Chest, Legs, Waist, Arms, Hands.
The only problems I really see with this are: an extra couple tables in the treasure/magic item generator tables, and a need for a slightly tighter mechanical leash on buying and selling of magic items. The Magic Item Compendium had a lot of helpful ideas, but even that fell short to some degree. Say a fighter gets a set of Bracers of Strength, but he has bracers he currently really likes. What does he need to do to find a pair of Gloves of Strength? Gather Info, and if so, at what DC? Relative to community size, or adventuring population? Diplomacy check, to negotiate the other guy into trading?
I mean, because I can come up with these examples, I could probably manage it on my own. But I like having an "official" mechanical system to back me up. I suppose I feel more comfortable thinking outside the box when I can actually see the box!
The only problems I really see with this are: an extra couple tables in the treasure/magic item generator tables, and a need for a slightly tighter mechanical leash on buying and selling of magic items. The Magic Item Compendium had a lot of helpful ideas, but even that fell short to some degree. Say a fighter gets a set of Bracers of Strength, but he has bracers he currently really likes. What does he need to do to find a pair of Gloves of Strength? Gather Info, and if so, at what DC? Relative to community size, or adventuring population? Diplomacy check, to negotiate the other guy into trading?
Isn't the solution under the MIC or Alpha 2 to simply sell the Bracer's of Strength, take the proceeds from that and other equipment sold and gold found and add the Str. bonus to the bracers of archery you've already got?
Or instead, don't give out ability boosting stat gear at all. Let the players save up to add those enhancements later.
Good points, I guess Im trying to say (using a terrible metaphor) that I want to see the "Fog of War" lifted over the space where "finding a person who can do what I want" is supposed to live.
I just dislike relying on DM Fiat to determine if an item-crafting person happens to live in the town where the PCs are. Part of that problem is because to craft competitive items, the crafter needs to be almost as high level if not higher than the PCs. This is good, in that it keeps the PCs from getting funny ideas regarding the crafter's personal possesions, but its also bad, because with the default community creation rules (which I don't know if they are SRD or not) its almost impossible to find anyone over level 6 unless you are in a metropolis. And to maintain the general flavor of D&D, metropolises should be fairly few and far between.
So maybe if item creation is tweaked to make crafting more feasible in small communities, or a system devised for the purpose of "locating" crafters, I could breathe a little easier. Just my two cents worth.
Now that crafting doesn't require exp... and characters get an additional 3 feats over the course of 20 levels... you may find more players interested in taking crafting feats (I know I'm considering it now, where before it was never even on the table). That might help with this as well.
I'm curious.
Are each of these a seperate body slot:
Headband
Crown, hat, headband
Phylactery
Eye Lenses, goggles
Cloak, cape, mantle
Amulet, brooch, medallion, necklace, peraipt, scarab
Robe
Shirt
Vest, Vestment
Bracers
Bracelets
Gloves
Guantlets
Belt
Boots
???
If so where does armor fall under these expanded slots? I'm not really complaining if they are all seperate slots now, leads to some interesting things that can be done that's for sure.
@ Anry
There has been no change in slots from standard D&D3.5 to PRPG - check the SRD, it's always been this way. All things in one line refer to the same slot (e. g. gloves and gauntlets compete for the "hands" slot). Also notice the rarley used vest(ment) and shirt* slots.
Armor occupies the same slot as a robe, I'd say.
*Anybody remember the awesomeness of Hawaiian shirts in Nethack?
@ Anry
There has been no change in slots from standard D&D3.5 to PRPG - check the SRD, it's always been this way. All things in one line refer to the same slot (e. g. gloves and gauntlets compete for the "hands" slot). Also notice the rarley used vest(ment) and shirt* slots.Armor occupies the same slot as a robe, I'd say.
*Anybody remember the awesomeness of Hawaiian shirts in Nethack?
Emphasis mine.
It does, officially; noth are the "body" slot.I like the idea of adding abilities officially to other items; gloves of arrow catching/dex +4 would be nice. However, the major cost of adding that second bonus deters most players.
Therefore, as I have in a separate post, I think it should be "free" to add certain bonuses to certain body slots, or at least cheaper. Namely:
Str - Arms, Waist
Dex - Hands, Feet (Waist?)
Con - Torso, Waist
Int - Head, Face
Wis - Head, Throat
Cha - Head, Shoulders
Deflection AC - Ring, Shoulder
Nat Armour AC - Torso
Armor AC - Body
Resistance to saves - Shoulder
Now, you can only add one for free. For example, a belt of Str +2 would cost 4000, a belt of Str+2/Con+2 would be 8000, but a belt of Str+2/Dex+2/Con+2 would cost 8000 + 4000x1.5 = 14000gp.
Personally, I prefer fewer, but more powerful items. Iconic heroes have iconic items - and that means FEW items.
Arthur isn't known for this Bracers of Swordmanship, Belt of Strength, Boots of Haste and a Longsword+1 (Human Bane), but for one single sword (okay, and the fitting sheath). Siegfried, Conan (the movie-Conan), Luke Skywalker (Yes, I count him as a fantasy hero) only have a special sword. Gandalf is a bit better equipped with (again) a sword, a staff and a ring (though he doesn't mention the latter much).
Items are easier to remember, easier to give an identity to if they are few in number.
Some known heroes carry much more stuff around, of course. Frodo's magic items include a ring, a chain shirt, a short sword, a cloak, a vial of starlight and a rope. These, however, are each awarded at a significant event, and symbolize his (transformational) journey.
This isn't usually true for magic items in D&D, as many are found as more or less random treasure, created in a few days by the party's casters or even bought in a shop. Thus, they don't really represent anything.
Adding incentive or lowering the cost of adding more abilities to one item would help to create iconic items, I think. Of course, there still needs to be good design, as simply adding the wanted abilities to random items will just feel silly (Greataxe+1, Aberration Bane, +5 to Profession (Brewer)).
I don't really know yet how to encourage "good" item design, but I'd probably start like that:
Adding additional abilities has no increased cost if the added ability fits the theme of the current abilities, as decided by the DM.
Possible themes include:
- Air: Lightning damage/protection, Flying, Dexterity, Initiative
- Earth: Acid damage/protection, Natural Armor, Damage Reduction, Strength, Constitution, Saves
- Fire: Fire damage/protection, Charisma, Destructive Power
- Water: Cold damage/protection, Wisdom, Swimming, Water Walking
- Interaction: Wisdom, Charisma, Bluff, Diplomacy, Intimidate, Sense Motive
- Protection: Armor Enhancement AC, Energy Resistace, Saves
- Magic: Caster Level, Intelligence, Spell Penetration, Save DC's, Spell Slots
- Necromancy: Channelling negative energy, Wisdom, Charisma, Intimidate
- Healing: Channeling positive energy, Wisdom, Charisma, Heal
- Battle: Weapon Enhancement, Deflection AC
I'd also get rid of Body Slot affinities when a theme is involved, I think.
@ Anry
There has been no change in slots from standard D&D3.5 to PRPG - check the SRD, it's always been this way. All things in one line refer to the same slot (e. g. gloves and gauntlets compete for the "hands" slot). Also notice the rarley used vest(ment) and shirt* slots.Armor occupies the same slot as a robe, I'd say.
*Anybody remember the awesomeness of Hawaiian shirts in Nethack?
Well, see catching site of that made me think one could where one each of those listed seperately.
|
|
Good points, I guess Im trying to say (using a terrible metaphor) that I want to see the "Fog of War" lifted over the space where "finding a person who can do what I want" is supposed to live.
I just dislike relying on DM Fiat to determine if an item-crafting person happens to live in the town where the PCs are. Part of that problem is because to craft competitive items, the crafter needs to be almost as high level if not higher than the PCs. This is good, in that it keeps the PCs from getting funny ideas regarding the crafter's personal possesions, but its also bad, because with the default community creation rules (which I don't know if they are SRD or not) its almost impossible to find anyone over level 6 unless you are in a metropolis. And to maintain the general flavor of D&D, metropolises should be fairly few and far between.
So maybe if item creation is tweaked to make crafting more feasible in small communities, or a system devised for the purpose of "locating" crafters, I could breathe a little easier. Just my two cents worth.
I've long used the conceit of the "professional agent" whose entire livelihood is based on scouting out prospective clients for very powerful mages. As players rise in level, these agents seek them out and make the proper arrangements to courier the money and magic items from the PCs to the wizard and vice versa. Additionally priests of powerfl temples seek the players out and try to convince them to make sizable donations to their church, and moe than a few of these churches are willing to create customs religious relics (i.e. magical items) for these patrons of their church.
As long as the players have a home base and a pile of money, people will show up and try to sell them stuff.
I'm thinking about writing a supplement on exactly this topic, how to have a brisk magic trade without resorting to the rather asinine conceit of the Magic Item Costco.
|
|
Having items that boost INT add to skill points is horribly broken. It completely removes the need to have different skills. Take a 10th level character who buys or find a +2 INT headband. Whenever he needs a particular skill he can just remove the headband, put it back on and voila! 24 hrs later he has 10 ranks in the needed skill. Need a blacksmith tomorrow, no problem, need som know: arcane to research that tome, no problem, need to be able to sneak past some guards tomorrow night, no problem.
Not a good idea!
An easy fix to this is to say that once the headband is attuned to the user and the skills are chosen, they cannot be altered by removing and re-attuning to either that particular headband, or any headband of that particular power level.
Or you could just have thought eaters constantly attack and harass the player, plague them with debilitating migraines, and generally make their life miserable as just reward for being a rules-exploiting twink.
Having items that boost INT add to skill points is horribly broken. It completely removes the need to have different skills. Take a 10th level character who buys or find a +2 INT headband. Whenever he needs a particular skill he can just remove the headband, put it back on and voila! 24 hrs later he has 10 ranks in the needed skill. Need a blacksmith tomorrow, no problem, need som know: arcane to research that tome, no problem, need to be able to sneak past some guards tomorrow night, no problem.
Not a good idea!
An easy fix to this is to say that once the headband is attuned to the user and the skills are chosen, they cannot be altered by removing and re-attuning to either that particular headband, or any headband of that particular power level.
Or you could just have thought eaters constantly attack and harass the player, plague them with debilitating migraines, and generally make their life miserable as just reward for being a rules-exploiting twink.
This still leaves the problem of the headband being an item - the only item - that actually gives a greater benefit as you use it longer. This goes completely against the grain of magical item design and also makes it impossible to price correctly.
This still leaves the problem of the headband being an item - the only item - that actually gives a greater benefit as you use it longer. This goes completely against the grain of magical item design and also makes it impossible to price correctly.
But it does bring all the ability bonus items into line. Can you imagine a Con bonus item not giving extra hit points?
It does also say in the item that it comes with its skill points set to certain skills when created.
the headband has been worn for 24 hours. A headband of
vast intelligence has one skill associated with it per +2 bonus
it grants. After being worn for 24 hours,
the headband grants a number of
skill ranks in those skills equal to
the wearer’s total Hit Dice. These
ranks do not stack with the ranks a
creature already possesses. These skills
are chosen when the headband is created. If
no skill is listed, the headband is assumed to grant skill
ranks in randomly determined Knowledge skills.
Page 141 of Alpha 3.
And in theory you can rule that you wouldn't get any extra hit points, attack bonus, damage bonus, AC bonus from Dex, or extra spells from Int, Wis or Cha until you have worn your item of awesomeness for 24 hours