First thing I went for and have already gave it a good look through, especially the rage powers. Finally the barbarian isn't necessarily a 1 trick pony anymore ^_^
I will say more as it comes o.o i'm just too excited.
If you gain constitution through gaining levels (4, 8, 12, 16, 20) do you get any additional rage points? This question might be better for a seperate thread.
Ok here is a little review of each power:
First of all.... why make everything in multiples of 3?
Animal Fury: Though not exactly what I would call powerful. It's certainly useful AND flavorful. If by some unlikely event your barbarian is grappled suddenly he/she tears into the foe's flesh with their teeth.
Clear Mind: This is some good stuff, can't say anything more.
Increased Damage Reduction: I say this is too expensive.. WAYYY too expensive for the benefit. 6 points for 1 damage for ONE round? 3 for 18 points for one round? *gasp!* A better number would be 4, at the very most 5 but 6 is way too much.
Elemental Rage: This is really a massive gamble and thus I probably wouldn't ever find myself using it for the price of 12. I figure the first attack will hit and good chance the second. Assuming these hit you are adding anywhere between 2-12 damage, but more than like 6-8 damage in all and thats if they hit. 9 points is nicer.
Guarded Stance: Great stuff, but is there a minimum of 1 if you are level 1?
Intimidating Glare: Nice stuff =) I don't think i'd ever use it personally but i'm sure someone will. Though maybe 4 points is better or 5, i mean isn't shaken a -2? I dunno nobody has ever been shaken in my games so I can't give any experienced input on it.
Knockback: Nifty, though would you be able to walk the 5 feet with them with each hit?
Low-Light Vision: Nice
Mighty Swing: I'm loving this. Even with a price of 12 you are taking away a roll that has to be done. Now with my barbarian wielding a dire pick an automatic x4 damage is nice without having to worry about if its a crit or not.
Moment of Clarity: THANK YOU
Night Sight: Again, nice.
Quick Reflexes: Good stuff, though i was never one that dealt with many AoO's.
Renewed Vigor: Oh I am so digging this, though a standard action? I mean do you really expect a barbarian to be in the middle of battle to basically down the equivalent of a cure light potion?
Rolling Dodge: See Guarded Stance.
Roused Anger: Good for those emergencies when you absolutely need it.
Strength Surge: Wow, thats all I can say. Make him unable to be disarmed or tripped or bullrushed :O sweet.
Surprise Accuracy: Another good emergency power =) Me likey.
Swift Foot: Nice, really nice. Nice and cheap. Suddenly a barbarian has a speed of 70 and just tears S--- up! This would be sick with spring attack ~.^
Terrifying Howl: Panicked is a much more appealing status and I could see my future barbarian taking it.
Unsuspecting Strike: Oh now you are just WANTING to make them powerful. Kudos.
I am still looking forward to the possibility of new rage powers that are tribe/culture specific to add more color through mechanics.
I love the rage point system and really hope they do a ki point system for monks.
-Weylin Stormcrowe
Love the concept, though I'm a little bit confused by some of the powers. A few of them don't seem to have anything to do with rage. For example, how does going berserk improve one's eyesight? That makes no sense.
Somehow all the andrenaline pumping through you not only beefs you up and makes you hardier, but you can somehow focus this to enhance your eyesight.
Lets put it this way. Actually controlling your eyesight is not outside the realm of possibility in real life to be possible in the future. Some people with multiple personality disorders (now called dissociative identity disorder or DID) have multiple lens perscriptions because somehow even their alternate personalities have alternate eyesight levels.
The costs don't make any sense to me. At low levels, you can only rage for a limited amount of time, while at higher levels you can rage pretty much all the time you're in combat, as long as you don't blow your rage points are fairly inconsequential temporary bonuses.
I don't see any I'd actually want rather than having the basic rage bonuses all the time, particularly since the costs are so high using one largely means you're actively sacrificing combat ability later in the day.
The new Rage is raging, that's true. I think some of the costs & the amount of points you get may need to be fudged a little bit, but otherwise this is a really cool ability.
One major criticism I've had about Rage since the very beginning, is that I don't like the way the Hit Point bonus from Con while raging works. If a low-level barbarian gets reduced to a few hit points at the end of his rage, he'll only go unconscious, but a high-level barbarian will die if this happens, which is completely counter-intuitive.
Could you guys fix that? Probably not. ;^)
What I really don't like is the increased cost of raging as you get better rages.
I dunno maybe the system works out, I have not yet tried it. I just thought that maybe you get better at raging and can become stronger when you rage. But with increased costs of raging it makes it seem like you have to put more effort in as well to do something you shouldn't have to put more effort into because you got better at it.
This makes prc'ing seem nicer in a way. you go barbarian to 10th level and you have a load of rage powers. Now you can go prc and you are still only paying 1 point of rage per turn.
Just an example... my kobold barbarian idea with 14 con
lvl 1: 4+2 rage points = 6
9 levels later 18+18 = 36
36+6 = 42
ok so now you have 41 rage points to diddle with (raging costs 1 point) and only spending one each round. A good amount of new powers have opened up to you for battle goodness to use.
11th level... now have 46 points so now 44 points to spend and each round it goes down by 2..
lvl 20.... *does math* 19... 38+38+6 = 82. so 82 to use but 78 after rage. thats either 19 rounds of raging or however many after you spend your rage points. But now it feels like that 14 con doesn't add really to my point total, I mean it does but those 4 points of each level really just let the rage go on another round, really aren't contributing to anything I could use for powers unless I wanted to use powers instead of a longer rage...hmmm... i suppose thats the trade off.
Either way as I suggest in another thread. A barbarian rage feat to give you +6 rage points would really be nice. And also when you gain con through levels you gain rage points also.
I dunno, It seems to me like you will end up blowing your wad pretty quick if you use any of these abilities, even if you have a stupid crazy Con. I mean low-light vision for 1 round being the equivalent in value to 3 rounds of raging? Some of the ideas are ok but the prices are ridiculous.
Thats my concern, I would like to see some playtest reports if people blow through these rather quickly.
Love them Rage Points, too! And wish there were something equvalent to the fighter. I like to regulate my powers and Power Attack or Combat Expertise isn't just enough.
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Alpha 2, page 10
A barbarian can end her rage as a free action and is fatigued for a number of rounds equal to 2 times the number of rage points spent during the rage. A barbarian cannot enter a new rage while fatigued but can otherwise enter a rage multiple times during a single encounter or combat.
1. Benefit
The system is a superb addition. The possibility to spread raging throughout the adventuring day gives much more flexibility to the first level barbarian. I never liked the per day limitation on what is probably a standard combat technique. In Alpha 2, the limit on the number of uses is fatigue and the pool of available rage points.
This eliminates the situation under 3.5 when the 1st, 2nd or 3rd level barbarian rages for one round and is knocked unconscious or otherwise drops the rage after one round. He or she has hardly broken a sweat, but that's it for the day.
2. Removing fatigue
I don't know if magic effects which may remove fatigue earlier would imbalance the system. Would a cleric use a Lesser Restoration just to put the barbarian back in fighting form when the barbarian would be back to normal in a couple of minutes at most? Would the barbarian spend the money to buy the cleric, the druid or the paladin a wand of lesser restoration? Since the number of rounds of rage is still limited by the points' pool, I don't think barbarians will be too eager to be able to rage again without a good reason.
3. Twice per day
I don't like the possibility of fully replenishing the pool of rage points twice per day. In Alpha 2, Joe the Barbarian wakes up at 7 am, fights until noon (spends all his rage points), has a quick lunch, goes off for an eight hour siesta and he can rage again for the evening dungeon crawl. None of the other classes can regenerate their main resources, such as spells slots, as quickly and I don't see the reason why the barbarian would be able to do that for rage points.
Since calculating and weighing options doesn't feel particularly barbaric, I made the following suggestion on another thread: rage points equal one round of rage apiece, and you can use one rage power each round while raging, at no point cost. Many rage powers would have to be rebalanced or restricted to higher levels, and in the end would work more like combat feats than psionic powers.
Yeah, it makes more sense for the rage powers to be combat feats that barbarians can take as bonus feats. However, keeping points for the ability to spread rage durations out would be good.
It just doesn't seem good to introduce two new different systems for using physical actions during a combat round.
I didn´t like the new rage point system the way it is right noew.
I mean, 4+ con score at lvel 1 and 2+con score every level thereafter seem very arbitrary to me.
What if one character has con 16 and the other 18? The first one will be penalized for that? It´s unfair.
And what about bonuses from a periapt of health +6? Dois it add also? And from +1 every four levels?
It´s complicated and is going to be much more when someone try to make a 12th level barbarian for example.
It should be a FIXED rage points per level.
FIXED.
Or at least, a fixed that grows. Like 4 points at level 1, than 6 at lvl 2, than 7... I don´t know.
But it has to be fixed.
...now if the Fighter could have something to manage besides his depleting hitpoints...
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Using this example, the party now has to wait 42rounds, over four minutes, while Lunch catches his breath.
This just seems to be penalizing...
In 3.5, the fatigue lasts until the end of the current encounter, which means that no matter how long the encounter may be, a barbarian will never recuperate.
If Lunch uses rage powers (which I understand to be amazing feats of strength beyond the already awesome rage) in every round and also in reaction to the opponent's actions, 4 minutes is a reasonable time to recuperate. Firing the big guns all at once should have its price. Also, looking at the adventuring day, 4 minutes will rarely matter. Being constrained to x/rages per day instead of being able to rage in most of the day's encounters does matter.
[edit: typos]
I like the idea of the rage points and most of the different powers listed, but I'm not really sure about a few of them.
Clear Mind - I like the power, don't like it being a supernatural ability. Why should it not work in anti-magic areas? In fact, I don't really like the idea of there being any non-Ex powers under the heading of a general Ex power. I'd prefer Ex versions of all powers if the main power is Ex itself.
Same thing with Renewed Vigor. Why not make it Ex? Hit points are fairly abstract (that's not just a 4e-ism).
Low-light vision and Night Sight just don't seem to fit. Raging and getting better vision in poor lighting conditions just doesn't seem combat-oriented enough to me when the basis is a "heat of combat" power. Also, could a barbarian huff himself (or chew his shield) into a rage without there being an "encounter" just so he could spend the points and get the vision powers?
Elemental Rage - interesting idea, but I don't see how it doesn't just kind of break the concept of what barbarians do. I'd rather see the extra damage defined as an pseudo-energy type that doesn't generally have to deal with energy resistance. Maybe just define it like the extra damage from bane weapons. It just does extra damage. No other explanation.
Surprise Accuracy - cool idea again, but at higher barbarian levels, isn't this getting a bit excessive? Sure, it's not too cheap, but a raging 10th level barbarian has a BAB of +10, at least +2 from Strength (probably more like +5-7 at this point), and can now get another +10 to hit as long as he has points to spend. But I think that's better than Knockback which is also a 6 point power. It just seems too good.
Otherwise, I think there's some really cool design going on here.
RPG Superstar 2013 Top 4, RPG Superstar 2011 Top 16
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Thats my concern, I would like to see some playtest reports if people blow through these rather quickly.Having run a barbarian through a few quick combats, I can speak to this. Running a barbarian felt like running a psionic character: you have the temptation to blow everything at once, but also a desire to conserve points for later encounters. In the end, this made the barbarian experience feel almost identical to the psionic experience; you are constantly calculating and weighing options in a very deliberate, tactical fashion.
Since calculating and weighing options doesn't feel particularly barbaric, I made the following suggestion on another thread: rage points equal one round of rage apiece, and you can use one rage power each round while raging, at no point cost. Many rage powers would have to be rebalanced or restricted to higher levels, and in the end would work more like combat feats than psionic powers.
This exactly what my Barbarian players said. I didn't want to mention it felt like playing my PsyWar to them, but they brought it up.
We all liked the Rage Powers, but thought they should be cleass abilities chosen at certain levels, like Rogue Talents at 10th. Instead of using a brand new mechanic keep rage the way it is but allow the Rage powers to be used either Con bonus/rage for the weaker ones or Con bonus/day for more powerful abilities.
The new Rage is raging, that's true. I think some of the costs & the amount of points you get may need to be fudged a little bit, but otherwise this is a really cool ability.
One major criticism I've had about Rage since the very beginning, is that I don't like the way the Hit Point bonus from Con while raging works. If a low-level barbarian gets reduced to a few hit points at the end of his rage, he'll only go unconscious, but a high-level barbarian will die if this happens, which is completely counter-intuitive.
Could you guys fix that? Probably not. ;^)
I agree with both Forever Man and Fox_Reeveheart. The point system, as it stands, doesn't really work for me. Maybe it should cost 1 point (or 2 or 3 as one levels up to greater rages) to enter a rage, but that's it. No "maintenance cost" per round. The rage could last for a set number of rounds, something like equal to your barbarian level, possibly /2, or keep the old way (3+CON). But, as the Rage Points system stands, I'm not very excited about it.
One way of off-setting the "rage death" Forever Man talked about is having a spontaneous healing effect occur whenever a barbarian exits a rage. Not much, maybe d4 or d6 per 2 levels. This way, a barbarian could at least maybe survive his wild frenzy of death and destruction.
Epic Meepo's idea sounds like a winner. Rage powers are now more like Rogue talents, usable when needed or warrented. Smart thinking.
Just a few suggestions, because I agree the system needs adjusting. Thanks for listening.
DogBone
The point system, as it stands, doesn't really work for me. Maybe it should cost 1 point (or 2 or 3 as one levels up to greater rages) to enter a rage, but that's it. No "maintenance cost" per round. The rage could last for a set number of rounds, something like equal to your barbarian level, possibly /2, or keep the old way (3+CON). But, as the Rage Points system stands, I'm not very excited about it.
I picthed this idea in another thread, but I feel it bares repeating here.
I suggested that the barbarian could rage a total number of rounds a day equal to his class level x Constitution bonus. The rounds of rage need not be consective rounds and could be used multiple times a day as the barbarian player sees fit.
While its similar to rage points it just feels less cumbersome.
Holy kerschnikeys! this topic is still around? sweet. Nice to see some discussion about this and still be a lively topic.
My experience in a nutshell is that again it did not feel like a barbarian to sit there and try to plan ahead of what i'm going to do with my points. You usually want to blow it all on the first battle.
I'd just like to throw in my 2 cents here. I really like the rage powers, though I'd have to play it to really get a sense of the point/benefit ratio.
Theres only one power that really doesn't fit for me, and thats Elemental Rage. Maybe if there was some flavorful explanation it might make it easier to swallow, but how does being a whirling dervish of fists and elbows ignite/electrify/freeze/acidify your weapons? At this point you're not talking about a raging hulk of steely thews, you're talking about Superman's Superhypnosis (power for the sake of power vs. thematically relevant abilities).
This is one of the things I don't want to see in Pathfinder. Keep the magic with the magic users, please.
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The following suggestions are based on a single playtest, but lots of long discussions and a fair amount of experience with the current rules set, and what turns people away from it. My own view of backwards compatibility is that as long as the PRPG rules -can- build character classes close to 3.5, that's good enough. Thus giving characters lots of new options isn't a problem, as long as those classes -can- make something close to 3.5 versions.
Barbarians
I know a lot of people who don't play barbarians because they hate the rage mechanic. They like the idea of being less civilized characters with a focus on primal abilities, but dislike having to be a berserker (lowering AC and exhausting themselves). There are lots of other barbarian archtypes in fantasy fiction than the berserker, and I'd love a class that gave some more flexibility for those character ideas.
For these players, the new rage points go a long way to make barbarians more flexible, interesting characters. I would encourage two steps to take the idea just a little further even than the current version.
1: Make the main rage power just another option you can select, like the other rage powers. It can be the most powerful of them, the most common, the one you assume every barbarian takes, but it's a small step to just make it another choice. If you'd -rather- have surprise accuracy or swift foot as your core rage ability, I'd love to see that as an option. Honestly, I think we can divorce the use of rage powers from actually being in rage without overpowering the class. I -like- the idea of a barbarian trying to open a lowered portcullis simply giving a scream of extra effort, using strength surge, and hauling it up.
The game could then make advancements on normal rage also rage powers, with level minimums, and allow extra rage powers to be selected at the levels a barbarian now gains those automatically.
2: Add at least a few powers with much lower rage point costs, and much less impact in the game. Such powers might not be for everyone, but they would allow a barbarian build with smaller boosts over a longer adventuring day. I could easily see Keen Eyed (add ½ barbarian level to one Perception check), Catlike Reflexes (reroll one initiative check, keep the second roll), and Giant Grip (use a two-handed weapon in one hand for one round at no penalty) as 2-rage-point powers.
(Also, I think the idea of having fewer total rage points, with lower costs, has value. This would obviously nix the idea of cheaper rage powers, but if it could be worked out so you spent 1 rage point normally, with 2 or 3 being rare exceptions, instead of 3, 6, and 8, I think a lot of math-adverse people will be happier, and I suspect a lot of math-adverse people look to the barbarian as a low-effort class.)
Also, to further expand what I think is a really neat idea, I can envision rage feats that give new options, possibly along with a few extra rage points. These might go best in an expansion product, but I still like the idea. (Alternatively, they could be a new class of magic item, like spirit totems or something). For example:
Danger Sense
You can react to danger even if you don't perceive it.
Prerequisites: 30 rage points, Perception +7
Benefit: You can act in the surprise round of combat even if you would normally be surprised. Spend 6 rage points as a free action.