I just wanted to throw out there that I would love to see the spells assigned to their schools in a way that makes sense for the school's themes. In my opinion, this was the way that 3.0 and prior editions handled it, but in the 3.5 revision there was what I consider to be a misguided attempt to reclassify spells into different schools to balance the schools.
A good example of this is the orb spells from the splatbooks. In Tome & Blood (3.0), Acid Orb was an evocation spell. In Complete Arcane (3.5), it was recast as a conjuration spell. If the primary effect of a spell is to create and deliver energy damage, that spell should be an evocation spell. Trying to balance the schools is probably futile, but if it is necessary, I suggest that a better way to do it is to add new spells that fit the theme of their school. After all, if I play a conjurer, I'm looking to have a wizard whose primary schtick is summoning creatures to do his bidding. If I'm looking for straight up damage, it's evoker all the way. This mixing and matching blurs the lines between the schools and works against the flavor of having specialists at all.
I've always been a fan of schools that are classified according to their effects rather than the way they work in magical theory. The current schools are a mixture of the two which is open to abuse in the way mentioned above.
So in my ideal world there would be schools would be divided along the lines of enchantment, illusion, and necromancy, and not things lke evocation and abjuration. If you changed evocation to "battle magic" and abjuration to "wards" or something, and kept going in that vein, then everything would be consistent and flavourful. I don't think schools should be able to tread on each other's toes. I mean evocation is creating energy, that could be turned to just about anything. You could make an evocation spell that mimics an illusion by saying "it creates light and sound waves from nothing."
You could make an evocation spell that mimics an illusion by saying "it creates light and sound waves from nothing."
Right, that is exactly the kind of thing that I am talking about that is annoying. I agree, they should be classified based on their effect, not based on some silly rationale obviously designed to move them into a different school.
While I DO like the 8 schools of magic as they are,
their subschools and the asociated spells REALLY need an overhaul!
1) Spells that create energy from nowhere are Evocation spells!
Make spells that call on forces of nature (call lightning, etc.) be Conjurations (if they aren't yet, I don't know)
2) Spells that protect (like Mage armor and shield!) should be abjuration spells
3) Healing should be subschool of Necromancy (messing around with the forces of live and bringing back the dead, if THAT's not necromancy!)
Even Transformation is better then Conjuration!
If the reason is that clerics get their magic from their deities, then must all their magic be actually conjuration, right?
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If the reason is that clerics get their magic from their deities, then must all their magic be actually conjuration, right?
Actually I don't think clerical magic should have schools. Personally I would prefer if there was no overlap between divine spells and arcane spells. You shouldn't have a spell castable by both types, I would go through the PHB and strike either wizard or cleric from any spell that had both in it.
And Mages detect what then? "Ok the magical item has the schools aura of... well... ähh... damn it."
It just needs real clarification how this "grants spells for their clerics" stuff is working EXACTLY.
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And Mages detect what then? "Ok the magical item has the schools aura of... well... ähh... damn it."
It just needs real clarification how this "grants spells for their clerics" stuff is working EXACTLY.
They would say "yup it's magical, but it's clerical mumbo jumbo, we'll need the priest"
and in the vise versa situation the cleric would say "This item reeks of the arcane, let the heathen deal with it."
I tend to shuffle spells about too. Orb spells are evocation simple as that and yeah spells that call energy are conjuration.
As for acid orb being a conjuration instead of an evocation what you must realize is that Acid isn't actually energy its a substance.
Yeah, but it's a floating stable BALL OF ACID.
It might be conjuration if you just summon a pool of acid, but as far as I see that, it's just a magical orb which damages thinks LIKE acid.
Besides: Acid is the official energy form of Earth (logical or not)
That's because they either had to event an entire seperate rule system for acid, and justify resistances for it. Or just lump it in with "energy types". The fact that all acid spells are conjuration spells should tell you how they view it in truth. (Acid Fog, Acid Splash, Acid Orb, Melf's Acid Arrow)
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Yeah, but it's a floating stable BALL OF ACID.
It might be conjuration if you just summon a pool of acid, but as far as I see that, it's just a magical orb which damages thinks LIKE acid.
QFT I changed Orb of acid to Acid Pool, and instead of a ranged touch it became reflex for half.
Every other orb spell became an evocation.
The schools are somewhat blurred. However, what causes the most blurring is when spells are grouped primarily by effect and not by method. The descriptions on pg. 172-174 of the PHB are a decent way to categorize the spells, but even there some spells seem to be included in some schools more to "balance" the selections than for any other reason.
For example, by method all force spells should be Evocation. Instead, mage armor is Conjuration, shield is Abjuration, etc. Another example is the fear-causing spells being included in Necromancy instead of Enchantment.
The various orb spells being Conjuration actually make sense (except for orb of force), since they are Conjuration [Creation] spells. They bring forth real, non-magical substances (called forth from other planes, probably) that are not subject to SR and do not vanish when the spell is finished. If you feel that "shooting" the orbs doesn't make sense, then have them appear above/around/beneath the target; the touch attack is the caster attempting to have the orb appear in exactly the right spot (you could even use the rules for Throw Splash Weapon on PHB pg. 158).
Oh yeah, the fear effect spells are a good one too!
Those really have to be in the Enchantment school!
I really would like to see Necromancy being the school all around life and death, healing and sickening. That way, it makes more sense that necromancy spells can "conjure/create" deseases and the like.
Yes, school-swapping would be nice. This thread deserves a bump.
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So inspired by this thread I went through all my 3.5 books and spells either became arcane or divine, only the rare spell was both (detect magic, and the daggerspell spell since it's tied to an organization). The cool thing is once done you really started to see a difference in effect from arcane and divine casters, and also the bard (who I left able to pull both arcane and divine as a thuerge type class) really started to look attractive.
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Once that is done I'm going to actually sit down and read all the dang spell entries and change schools how I see fit. You'd be amazed but one WotC spell actually said in the spell description that you "conjure a dark fog from the negative energy plane" (it litterally said that word for word) and it was an evocation with the evil and darkness subtypes.
Amazing! That'll be inconsistent AND stupid!
WotC: I'm impressed.
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Amazing! That'll be inconsistent AND stupid!
WotC: I'm impressed.
What do you mean will be? it already is, I read the spell description last night, past tenses man.
Honestly that's the thing I understand it is a game, but it's a game that your supposed to loose yourself in, it's supposed to feel real. In order for it to feel real the little flavor things have to be internally consistant. When wizards have to memorize and have a spell book because the magic works that way, then right next to them are a dread necromancer, and a warmage, who have to learn magic the same way (not born into the power) but get to cast any spell they know, and don't have spellbooks. And when fear effects are necromancy, and defense spells being conjuration, and evocations that "conjure a dark fog from the negative energy plain" so that SR can apply, it bothers me.
I'm german. Don't care for my english!
And besides: I AM TOTALLY WITH YOU BROTHER!
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In 2E, there was a Players Option book that introduced the idea of schools of effect and schools of, erm, something else, that basically sounded like 'theme schools' (school of shadow, school of chronomancy, etc.).
The problem is, necromancy and illusion are *already* 'theme-schools.'
Enchantment, spells that make your hungry or horny or happy or fill you with hope or despair or mindless rage. But not fear. That's necromancy, 'cause fear *has nothing to do with negative energy.*
Evocation, creating and controlling forces of energy, from fire to thunder to lightning to light and darkness. But not colored light, 'cause that's illusion! Also, colored light might have special effects, too. If you mentally stun or daze someone, it's an enchantment spell, *unless* you use colored light, then it's an illusion. Sand for Sleep? Enchantment. Colored sand for Color Spray? Illusion. It's all about color. Light and Daylight and all those spells create non-colored light, so their just Evocations.
Conjuring up forces and beings from other planes? Conjuration. Plane of fire? Conjuration. Upper planes of the celestial critters? Conjuration. Lower planes of the fiendish critters? Conjuration. Unaligned Positive Energy from the Positive Energy Plane? Conjuration. Unaligned Negative Energy from the Unaligned Negative Energy Plane? Necromancy. And slap an [Evil] tag on it, because using *unaligned* energies to perform unspecified actions is EVIL (whereas using unaligned energies from the plane of fire to burn down an orphanage full of nuns of the goddess of peace is just kinda naughty, but not mechanically [Evil])! Why is it evil? Uh, look, Elvis!
Almost every spell from the Necromancy and Illusion 'schools' fits perfectly into Enchantment (phantasms and fears), Conjuration (shadow spells and undead summoning spells), Transmutation (spells that weaken others or degenerate them physically), Evocation (spells that manifest energy, whether light or dark or negative), etc.
Some of them, such as Fears being Necromantic spells instead of Enchantment spells, actively weaken the school that should have that ability, as a mind-mage who is unable to Scare someone sounds pretty lacking in the fundementals of his craft.
Ultimately, this comes down to backwards compatibility. Whether or not Necromancy or Illusion make any sense at all to exist in the 'school of effect' structure that defines Evocation, Abjuration, Conjuration, etc. that's the way Gary made 'em, and that's how they work in 3.5. I'd rather there only be six schools of effect, and Necromancy and Illusion exist as examples of 'theme schools' that a DM can make from bits and pieces of other schools (which would allow the generic Enchanter to have spells of fear and hypnotism, and the generic Evoker to throw spells of shadow and negative energy).
That's why I would put messing around with positve/negative energy into Necromancy. As with all those Raise Dead/Resurrection spells.
As I said. Messing around with life and death should all be necromancy.
That's why I would put messing around with positve/negative energy into Necromancy. As with all those Raise Dead/Resurrection spells.
As I said. Messing around with life and death should all be necromancy.
well said
well saidThat's why I would put messing around with positve/negative energy into Necromancy. As with all those Raise Dead/Resurrection spells.
As I said. Messing around with life and death should all be necromancy.
I third this sentiment. This does need to be rolled into one school. Necromancy [Good] & Necroamncy [Evil] for heal and harm based effects respectively.