lordzack |
Even after they're enhancement in the Alpha Release I think the Fighter still needs more.
Most of a Fighter's power comes from they're feats, even with they're new class features. The problem with that is that they're are pretty much no worthwhile high level bonus feats. Also with the feats the Fighter does have the options are pretty much suck at many things, or be half-way decent at one thing. The Fighter should be the master of many different Fighting techniques, not a one-trick pony. That applies to other non-spellcasting classes too, but that's a subject for another thread.
So how do we solve these problems? A good start would be to make really good high level fighter feats. They wouldn't do the same things as high level spells, but they'd be comparable. Think about mythical warriors and legendary heroes. They're strong and superhumanly tough. Some of them wrestle with massive monsters and win. Others out think they're enemies. Some master weapons, knowing hundreds of techniques to strike the enemy down. Others master they're own bodies. Fighters (and other martial classes, though I'm focusing on the Fighter for now) in the D&D game aught to be the same. Also I think Fighter need more bonus feats. Maybe even two at 1st level. That might seem unbalanced, but many other classes get multiple things at 1st level, often even on top of spells.
Also something Paizo could consider is giving the Fighter special abilities that can be chosen instead of feats.
The Fighter's skill list is to low and they need more skills at 1st level. My vision of the Fighter is not usually a dumb meat stick. My favorite Fighters can help outside of combat. They can negotiate, intimidate or bluff they're way out of problems. They can spot ambushes or the rogue sneaking up behind the party. They're knowledgeable about many things. Some might be able to deal with traps. Some things they're probably not very good at is dealing with magic, or sneaking around.
So what do you think?
David Jackson 60 |
As long as the skill system is left the way it currently is. If not, a fighter will still struggle with feats.
As far as high-level feats...well it could be done very easily with a +16 BaB and/or weapon specialization & multiple feat requirements.
Personally I would go with multiple feat requirements and the +16 to BaB...pretty much this means that only the fighting-based classes can take them before epic level, and the other feat requirements would mean it's most likely for the fighter to take them.
lordzack |
Well I don't think that the new class features really did all that much. Fighters hit more and harder, but that's not nearly all of the problem they had. The Fighter still needs more choices to do in a round. That means more and better combat feats. They need to not be one trick ponies and that means having enough feats to spend on multiple different feat trees. They need better feats because most of what we have now is nothing near to what spells are like. One thing I think is that most combat feats, especially high level ones should give multiple options. Also I think the weapon focus tree should be replaced with a bunch of feats for specific weapons that give the benefits of the feats in the weapon focus tree in addition to more unique benefits. And I think the weapon specialization replacement feats should not give a static bonus, but rather an additional die, or increase the weapon's damage as if it was a size larger.
Dario Nardi |
Fighters could use just alittle more damage 1-4 d6s for some manuever they can perform. Aside from that I think they are good to go.
In the past, I have often given my fighters Wild Talent (or made them elans or a similar race) along with Psionic Weapon or Greater Psionic Weapon and Psionic Meditation. A bonus of +4d6 damage is hard to pass up, especially since monster hit points increase at a much faster rate than weapon damage output. The Deep Impact feat is also really helpful to bypass some of the insanely high ACs of powerful monsters.
In making a Pathfinder Alpha 1.1 fighter yesterday, I noticed there are very few ways to boost one's Combat Maneuver Bonus high enough to deal with the hulking foes typical of high level adventures.
Personally I would suggest a set of 3-4 feats parallel to the psionic feats, requiring "combat focus" instead of "psionic focus," and perhaps only usable with one's favored weapon (from Weapon Focus).
I would also add two feats -- Combat Prowess and Greater Combat Prowess -- that give a +3 and +6 bonus respectively to one's CMB, but only when certain strict criteria are met that (in practice) limit it to once per encounter. Ideas on how to do this?
Plognark |
PHB2 has quite a few fighter-specific feats that were intended to be an "I'm a fighter and I'm special" optional tweak; basically class specific feats along the lines of weapon specialization.
I'd like to see fighters get some CMB bonuses though. I think that's a good idea.
maybe a CMB bonus with their trained weapon groups, or as part of their armor training, I dunno.
lordzack |
I once tried giving the Fighter bonus feats every level, plus one additional one at 1st and every five levels thereafter. I also let them pick certain special abilities instead of Fighter feats. It worked well, but the probably was the Rogue didn't get enough compared to the Fighter. But, then again the Rogue gets more now as well. Perhaps some one else should try this out, preferably some one with PHB 2.
himwhoscallediam |
I didnt think the PH2 helped damage much it was more of a manuevers and character option book. Though now that I am thinking the fighters increased cirtical mod does infact solve this problem though I do not know to what extent. I will run some numbers and builds when I can get on my labtop at school and have a more information.
Skester |
I like what Plognark said, add their bonus with their weapon groups to their CMV.
I also like the "high level feats" that add an automatic trip or overrun attack. You hit them so hard, they fall back or down. Just make it a once per round thing, otherwise with great cleave - Sauron in lord of the rings comes to mind.
Though that might not be too bad for a very high level fighter against mooks.
Some high level feats would probably benefit the fighter. With a nice set of requirements so the Fighter would pretty much be the only character able to get more than one.
Skester
lordzack |
High level Fighters should be masters of many different fighting techniques. They should be able to read they're enemies moves and counter them. They aught to be highly resistant to harmful effects of all types, and able to unleash harmful effects on they're enemies, not limited to damage. He aught to be able to fend off the Tarrasque and similar enemies.
Edit: Whoops, this was supposed to go into the "What should high level Fighters be able to do?" thread, though I suppose it fits here as well.
Azzy |
Even after they're enhancement in the Alpha Release I think the Fighter still needs more.
There are several other threads on this topic, but to recap my thoughts...
1. Fighters need more skills and number of 1st level skill choices in order to tackle more warrior concepts like the swashbuckler and aristocratic warrior.
2. Address the Armor Training special ability to include an unarmored option.
3. Feats. This is the real issue. Fighters need more feats that a) allow more concepts (like the unarmored fighter, and unarmored fighter), and b) that are comparable to equivalent level class abilities and spells.
That said, the class itself doesn't need much of a tweak. It's the fighter-only and combat feats that really need the most work.
anthony Valente |
What about giving the fighter a feat tree essentially for free? It could be chosen at first level, and would follow somewhat how the current monk gains the unarmed strike feat tree. There's the three most common ones: Two weapon fighting, sword and shield, and Two handed fighting. Perhaps the fighter can gain feats along these lines when they gained a given level rather than choosing them with one of their feat slots. I think this would give them a focus in style, but allow for versatility by freeing up feats that would otherwise be spent on attaining them. The Ability could be called Combat Style, much like how the current Ranger chooses one at 2nd level. Personally, I think that ability is more of a fighter thing than a Ranger thing anyway
Malik13 |
I would love to see the Fighter as a class with alot more going for it, and I think the alpha 1.1 rules are a tentative step in the right direction.
Here are some (non playtested!) Class only features I have put together that have the right feel of what I would like to see:
Heavy Hitters (Ex): At 1st level, all fighters learn how to hit harder and do more damage with their weapons. This allows 150% of the normal strength bonus (rounded down) to be applied to weapon damage. This modifier is multiplied by Critical Hits, but does not apply to any other Strength related checks (eg Combat Maneuver Bonus). This is in addition to the normal bonus feat gained at 1st level.
Critical Tricks (Ex): From 5th level, when a Critical Hit is threatened, the player can choose to either roll to confirm; OR may roll normal damage and apply a Trip, Disarm, or Bullrush, without provoking an Attack of opportunity and with +4 on their CMB. At 10th Level this modifier increases to +8. These effects are applicable even against a creature that is not subject to Critical Hits.
Critical Effects (Ex): From 9th level, when a Critical Hit is threatened, the player can choose to either roll to confirm; OR may roll normal damage and apply one of the following effects: Deafen (d4+1rds), Sicken (d4+1rds) or Daze (1rd): Fort Save to resist, DC equal to damage rolled +4. At 14th level this modifier increases to +8.
Critical Expert (Ex): From 13th level, when a Critical Hit is threatened, the player can choose to either roll to confirm; OR may roll normal damage and apply one of the following effects: Blind (d4+1rds), Nauseate (d4+1rds) or Stun (1rd): Fort Save to resist, DC equal to damage rolled +4. At 18th level this modifier increases to +8. These effects are not applicable against a creature that is not subject to Critical Hits. In addition, all Critical threat confirming rolls the Fighter has to make have a Power Critical modifier applied (+4); this bonus stacks with Power Critical if it is a Feat that the Fighter already has.
Maximised Critical (Ex): From 17th level,when the Fighter achieves a Critical threat, the first dice of Weapon damage need not be rolled but automatically achieves its maximum (e.g. d6 =6, 2d4 =8 etc). This benefit is applied even if the Critical is not confirmed or if fighter chooses to use the Critical to apply a combat maneuver or effect.
All good or Nup no thanks?