My main character is a half-elven ranger, currently of level 15. It's a single-classed character created many years ago, at the time of AD&D 2E, then converted to 3.0 and 3.5.
I'm perfectly fine with rangers and paladins having spells, it keeps the "classic fantasy feel" which Pathfinder is trying to manage. Besides, their spell lists only "suck" if you're expecting "boom" spells or combat spells on par on what a wizard or druid or cleric of the same level are doing.
Spells are not the main feature of these classes, fighting is (and for the ranger, woodlore skills). Their spells are mostly utilitarian, non-combat related, and full of flavour, or small boosts for the character that make him even more adept in combat. The addition of spells in 3.5 doesn't hurt, either.
I have no problem conceptualizing them having spells. My character, for example, is the classic ranger trained by elves in his youth, who taught him ancient wood-secrets and nature lore. His spells represent those secrets, and it has never been a problem.
And before someone starts saying: no, this character does not suck just for being single-classed or not having any PrC... In fact, the opposite is true. Among an elf bladesinger gish, a rogue/shadowdancer, and a cleric, this ranger is usually the most succesful and the one who generates more wow! moments at the gaming table (closely followed by the elf). I never found a PrC interesting enough to make me dispense the base ranger class...
I'm anxious to see how Pathfinder manages the ranger class!
I'm perfectly fine with rangers and paladins having spells, it keeps the "classic fantasy feel" which Pathfinder is trying to manage. Besides, their spell lists only "suck" if you're expecting "boom" spells or combat spells on par on what a wizard or druid or cleric of the same level are doing.
Spells are not the main feature of these classes, fighting is (and for the ranger, woodlore skills). Their spells are mostly utilitarian, non-combat related, and full of flavour, or small boosts for the character that make him even more adept in combat. The addition of spells in 3.5 doesn't hurt, either.
I agree completely. Frankly, I'm a bit surprised that there are people who don't want Rangers and Paladins to have the ability to cast a few minor spells. To me, that is what makes them interesting. No, it doesn't make them particularly powerful, but it does make them more versatile. And to me, versatility is a good thing. In fact, I would be interested in seeing more classes (new ones perhaps) with minor spellcasting abilities that give them some flavor and more options both in and out of combat.
By the way, I agree in giving more choices to rangers and paladins about their combat styles... the idea for a paladin being able to choose between mounted cavalier or holy warrior is very nice.
Rangers could also benefit from added variety, perhaps allowing a third option for those who like a more Aragorn-like melee ranger (non dual-wielding)like they were back at first edition.
In a way, I agree. Rangers and Paladins are not about their spells, but I would like to see them have a list that isn't basically a stripped-down duplicate of the druid or cleric. Cure Light Wounds doesn't feel very paladin-ey. Justice of the Righteous God that takes some of the enemy's hit points and gives it to a friend does (I just made that up). The paladin's spells, I feel, should be more aggressive and reflect his "noble" or "righteous" nature.
Also, beyond the Ranger's Favored enemy, Rangers feel like a weak mix multiclass of fighter and druid. I'd like to see them get some two-weapon stunts fighters can't get, or archery tricks fighter's can't achieve - something that won't make the fighter bawl, but something that gives them a different feel than a fighter who took the same feat tree. Barbarian does it right with Rage & DR abilities; surely something can be done for the Ranger. Same goes for the animal companion - A ranger's animal companion should be more fight-orientated than a druid's, but somehow less versatile.
Paladins get a fairly unique load of abilities but they are saddled (forgive the pun) with a mount that is useless in all but a small number of campaigns - and pops in and out of the game like some sort of Pokemon in a poke-ball ("I choose you, Destier!"). I'd like to see the "paladin's companion" opened up a bit into more of a planar ally kind of thing - I could definitely see a paladin running around with a Lantern Archon at his side or (though this is probably waaaaay too powerful) literally fighting with angels at his side.
I'm not a fan of the spellcasting on either of the classes, and I always hunt down a variant that cans it for something else. I don't beleive they could be removed though without some comprimization on backwards compatibility.
And I have to agree about the utter uselessness of the paladin mount.
Also, beyond the Ranger's Favored enemy, Rangers feel like a weak mix multiclass of fighter and druid.
The 3.5 ranger is more of a fighter/rogue with a wilderness focus. Full BAB and 6+ Skill Points make it able to fill both the warrior and expert roles.
The animal companion and minor spells are side benefits and not core class roles, IMO. PrCs such as beastmaster (Complete Adventurer) or a feat that allows a character to increase their effective druid level for Animal Companion abilities (possibly like Practiced Spellcaster in Complete Arcane and Complete Divine) would be a way to improve on those abilities.
I'd like to see the "paladin's companion" opened up a bit into more of a planar ally kind of thing - I could definitely see a paladin running around with a Lantern Archon at his side or (though this is probably waaaaay too powerful) literally fighting with angels at his side.
Changing the Special Mount to a Celestial Companion (see holy liberator in Complete Divine) is definitely a change I think the paladin needs. That way, the paladin could have a mount, but would also have other options. A feat to allow actual celestials instead of celestial creatures (similar to Improved Familiar allowing elementals, imps, and quasits) could be developed, also.
P.S.: I know beastmaster, holy liberator, and Practiced Spellcaster are not OGL, but I'm using them as examples to show how it's possible to make some changes.
I would REALLY like to see the Paladin and Ranger in the Pathfinder RPG NOT be spell casters. Neither class ever really made sense to me as a spell caster. In fact, I'm sure many of my fellow veteran D&D players can remember a time when they did not cast spells. (I also don't quite dig the Rogue getting a few spells at high levels, but that's another thread ...)
No you don't.
Beginning at the ninth level of experience, the paladin may use cleric spells, starting with a single first level spell and expanding to three spells of each of the first four levels at level 20.
Heck, the AD&D Ranger got Druidic and Magic User spells as he went up in levels. There has literally never been time when these classes weren't promised spellcasting by the time they hit high level.
-Frank
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I wouldn't be suprised to see the Pathfinder Paladin and Ranger have non-spellcasting options when they are presented.
Based on the Rogue and Wizard write-ups, it looks like they are trying to give us in-class options that will allow us to simulate multi-classing without having to dip into another class.
I also hope this. I'd like to see Paladins getting more Smiting-based abilities and powers against undead/evil creatures. I would also give them abilities to "channel" their CHA-bonus into their armor, weapons, and shields (i.e. how those Divine Feats in CW work). It would also be nice if they had the ability to heal even more than they do now, and "boost" their allies with Bless-like abilities, or even give them bonuses to saving throws, AC, Attacks, Damage, HPs (temporary), and so on. In a sense, that would really make them more like "Champions of Faith" I imagine them to be.
As for rangers, I'd like them to get bonuses to Survival/Track, some Stealth-based abilities, Favoured Terrain (instead of Favoured Enemy), more movement (just like Barbarians have) and some sort of automatical communication with animals and beasts. Maybe they could "steal" some abilities from Scout?