If your campaign includes magic-crafters who can recycle the XP in magic items then the XP becomes a currency, which would cause your system to break down - if an arch-mage can create a major magic item by extracting & combining the XP in a few dozen minor magical items then those +1 swords become valuable to them.
Well...YES! This is how you limit people from buying too much stuff. I remember one time, my players decided that they were going to have a whole bunch of stuff crafted in Silverymoon. And they did this.
And suddenly, the wizards told them "Lord Rakthis. You've engaged every item crafter in the city to the point where you can't make anymore items."
So he went to Waterdeep. And he burned their wizards guild out too. But he made a lot of people angry with him.
The solution to most of these problems is politics. If you set every crafter to work for you, then other adventurers aren't getting anything, and are getting turned away at the door. Let them spend it, come what may. If you do not respect those around you, there will always be problems.
I see your point here. But this puts me, and DMs like me I would assume, in a conundrum.I want to play D&D. However, I don't want to play in a setting where wishing items into existence is so common as to be the basis for an economy, because that just doesn't seem fun to me. And I also don't see an alternate system, because the problem you bring up is a real one.
The thing is that what I am proposing is actually a restriction of what the rules already allow. As discussed in the Actually Broken Things thread, the actual rules of 3.5 D&D are that player characters can enter the Wish Economy at level 9 and fill their pockets with literally any magic items at all - all the way up to staves of wishes.
The proposal is a compromise, where characters can only use basic sorceries to accumulate items up to the arbitrary limit of 15k in value - so that they can mass produce +2 Swords or +3 Shields, but not +10 swords or staves of disintegrate or whatever. As it happens, those items are well within the kinds of things that characters of 9th to 11th level can deck themselves in without unbalancing the game.
So, what are DMs and players that feel similarly to me supposed to do? And I'm saying now, "play a different system" isn't an option, because I don't want to play a different system, I want to play D&D.
My suggestion is to play at lower level. High level play in D&D is actually quite mad, where player characters can literally transport themselves across the world and even to other realms of existence and wipe out entire cities with a wave of the hand. If you don't want to deal with the transdimensional magical economy that D&D implies, you'll want to play at levels 1-8. Because at level 9 every Cleric automatically knows planeshift and can literally go to the City of Brass and bargain as an equal with the residents who can create two and a half tons of silver as a standard action.
So, what alternative solutions to the Wish economy exist at these high levels, Frank?
At this ppoint you are looking at radically overhauling the entire game system, abandoning D&D, or simply hoping that the characters in your personal game happen to stay focused enough on the plot that they never go to the deep end of the pool where the big economics are being thrown around.
You can't really stop them. Any 9th level Cleric can literally prepare a spell on the morn of any day that will take him to the foot of the 6th level of Mount Celestia where he can fill his pockets with "as many precious gems as he can carry." A 9th level Wizard could have any of a number of spells in his spell book which will create wealth beyond what any of the characters could physically transport.
But if they choose to just never prepare those spells and never talk to the creatures that operate on this level, then they can choose to fight monsters, rescue princesses, and limit themselves to the magical swords found in the dragon hoards that they uncover in their adventures.
They could do that. But I would like the game to be robust enough to survive for 30 seconds if the players decide instead that they do want to go barter in Sigil or Union or the Brass Fortress.
-Frank
So, what alternative solutions to the Wish economy exist at these high levels, Frank?At this ppoint you are looking at radically overhauling the entire game system, abandoning D&D, or simply hoping that the characters in your personal game happen to stay focused enough on the plot that they never go to the deep end of the pool where the big economics are being thrown around.
They could do that. But I would like the game to be robust enough to survive for 30 seconds if the players decide instead that they do want to go barter in Sigil or Union or the Brass Fortress.
So, if I am grasping your purpose, you are asking for a radically overhauled game system for Pathfinder RPG? Something that is outside the scope of the project?
Also, I'd like to point out that not every game meets the same economic model. I actually have to GIVE my PC's items they need in one game because the game is very Robin Hood Style. Sure, they get a lot of money from the people they oppose, BUT...
That money is given back to the people who the PC's are fighting for. They don't keep their cash, they spend it on food, and clothing, and other necessities while the evil bad guys tax the population raw.
The issue is that not every game will have the same economic model. If I told the players in that game that they couldn't spend their money on food and clothing and medicine for the peasants, they'd flip! They've gotten to teleport/fabricate etc, level. They HAVE to teleport into people's homes with food and the like because otherwise, the bad guys will SEE them doing it at some point and stop it. The key to running a good game is knowing the resources of the players and the resources of their enemies. In general, the peasants of the city the PC's are fighting for loathe the evil sheriff and love them, because they spend their money on the peasantry.
Many people don't want to play in a game where your goal is not to trash the bad guys physically, but to win the hearts and minds of the people, and overthrow a government that is really powerful and smart, but the people in this game enjoy it, despite the fact that their wealth by level is not necessarily balanced.
My suggestion is to play at lower level. High level play in D&D is actually quite mad, where player characters can literally transport themselves across the world and even to other realms of existence and wipe out entire cities with a wave of the hand. If you don't want to deal with the transdimensional magical economy that D&D implies, you'll want to play at levels 1-8. Because at level 9 every Cleric automatically knows planeshift and can literally go to the City of Brass and bargain as an equal with the residents who can create two and a half tons of silver as a standard action.
Heh. Unfortunately, even that's not an option for me. My setting of choice is Planescape, so even if I did stick to low levels, I still would have to keep in mind these consequences, and either rewrite pre-existing material so that they express themselves, or figure out why they don't. I mean, it doesn't make sense for, just to give an example, the Dao to have their millions of earth elemental slaves toiling away in the plane of Mineral if they can just find someone they can use their Limited Wish with and split the magicked-up proceeds.
Though I do have to acknowledge, some of the high-ups in Sigil were said to have enough resources to buy and sell multiple Prime worlds if they so desired.
But anyway, even at low levels, the players would in some way bump elbows with the elite classes, just by the setting's nature. Certainly not in combat, but in some way. So as it is, I'm going to have to figure out something to do.
Ah well. At least, if nothing else, that Mount Celestia trick wouldn't work there. Don't follow a path of morality, you're not getting above Lunia, no matter what fancy magic tricks you've got. Thank heavens for small favors, eh? :D
Anyway, thanks for posting this thread if nothing else. It's given me something to think about, at least.
IMHO... economics in feudal fantasy is best left to the KISS principle... otherwise it becomes a headache...
Though in most gameworlds...who exactly are these high level casters burning thru tons and tons of xp so that the PCs can buy their goods...
CRAP teh internets just ate my windbag response... GRRR. I will condense it down.
Here's your SIMPLE solution.
(1) Ban fabricate. Ban magic item conjuration of wish. Make iron wall temporary, etc, etc.
(2) Gold cannot be used to create magic items. Gemstones have the essense of permanent magic in them. Gemstones or permanent magic items would be included in loot lists (see #4 for caveat).
(3) Permanent magic can be transmuted into different forms. However, the character wanting the item must be of sufficient level if they are taking lesser items and transmuting them into a more powerful item. Gemstones are consumed when using them in this process. You also need an artificer of sufficent level to do the transmutation (for a 10% fee?).
(4) If an encounter is not of sufficient challenge, then permanent magic items and gemstones are not on those loot lists. Also, a note about ecology, if they destroy a horde of orcs, it takes several generations for the orc tribes to grow back to a respectable size, by then the heroes are dead of old age.
(5) Use the 3.5 DMG to create loot lists based on assumed permanent magic at each level (or by 20th level and doling it out incrementally), then loot lists would have a ratio of (a) gemstones and permanent magic items TO (b) mundane items and coins.
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Wow! I must say this this is a great read. Gold-based economics is (IMO) one of the fundimental stumbling blocks of the game and I'm always interested in seeing how it can be adjusted without becoming bogged down in complex formulas (like Harnmaster/Harnmanor -anyone here play that?). I have no idea how to fix it, but enjoy finding ways to break it for fun (the ladder into 2 10' poles and torches is one of my faves).
One of the things my DM does to reduce the barrels full of gold that PC's need to operate is by giving non-cash benefits that have an assigned gp value.
Example: The party has investigated a series of murders and stopped the killer. They get a small cash reward and a medal. The medal grants a bonus to all communication skill rolls made within the area. They're heroes and deserve to be recognized. The benefits of the medal has an assigned GP value based on their effect as if it were a magic item, and counts against the WbL of the characters.
Incomes, upkeep, discounts, favours (free spellcasting, information, influence etc...) are also great non-gold treasure that can be handed out to offset the unweildy gold standard. It doesn't fix the basic flaw in the system, but it makes the game more interesting and fun.
Just my clipped Rethemi farthing's worth ;)
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So, if I am grasping your purpose, you are asking for a radically overhauled game system for Pathfinder RPG? Something that is outside the scope of the project?
I can't even tell if your hysterics are sincere or not any more. Do you have any other windmills to joust or straw men to incinerate?
For Celestia's sake, we've got people on this thread seriously suggesting that we remove all the spells that make money (which for the record includes and is not limited to: fabricate, flesh to salt, planar binding, planeshift, polymorph any object, shapechange, wall of iron, wish, and wall of stone). I'm throwing out a suggestion that the game can, and should be playable with all of the stuff in it.
Seriously all it requires is the introduction of alternate currencies that people require to trade for items that are level appropriate once those wealth creation systems start coming on line. Once you realize that the rules already establish people as having virtually limitless gold after a point, you've pretty much got to move to a non-gold based wealth measurement if you want to keep the D&D rules that equate wealth and character power once characters get powerful enough to get that virtually limitless pile of gold.
Heh. Unfortunately, even that's not an option for me. My setting of choice is Planescape, so even if I did stick to low levels, I still would have to keep in mind these consequences, and either rewrite pre-existing material so that they express themselves, or figure out why they don't. I mean, it doesn't make sense for, just to give an example, the Dao to have their millions of earth elemental slaves toiling away in the plane of Mineral if they can just find someone they can use their Limited Wish with and split the magicked-up proceeds.
Ooh... just... ooh.
Yeah, Planescape is not an appropriate setting if you don't want magical economies and heaps of wealth beyond mortal understanding and so on and so forth. I mean, that's a setting where there are places where the ground is literally made out of steel and anyone who works that steel into a weapon gets a magic weapon for their trouble.
If you want a setting where the engines of the Wish Economy are not in full swing I suggest Birthright - a setting where only an arbitrary and small group of characters (PCs included) can ever achieve high level, meaning that there's no one conducting high level economics and if you want powerful items that would be traded in the Wish Economy you have to take them off the corpses of people from the ancient past. Or you could go with Eberron, where the high level characters have almost universally been killed in the recent war, meaning that the Wish Economy has been temporarily disrupted and for the time being society is limited to that which can be accomplished with low level magic.
But the Dao's horde of elemental slaves actually does make sense in a horrible way. See, while they can create literally tonnes of metals and stones with their intrinsic abilities, the amount that they can create is finite. Extremely large, but finite none the less. The Dao have slaves mining away for them night and day because they want and have more than that. A tonne of iron is actually only a fraction of a cubic meter, and these guys have fortresses that are literally made of iron, silver, and gold.
A simple 10' x 10' x 1' wall section made of solid gold weighs in at 56 tonnes, and is approximately 5.9 million gold pieces. And the Dao have that in the Planescape world. They have that for the walls, ceiling, and floor of more than one 10x10 room. Even fleeting contact with these guys instantaneously and irrevocably alienates the player characters from the Gold Economy, because these guys operate at a level where they could buy and sell a complete set of epic equipment a thousand times over if you could purchase such equipment with gold.
There can still be an economy in high level goods, it just can't be conductible in Silver and Gold. We don't have to eliminate anything from the setting or the rules to retain playability, we just have to have higher level goods traded back and forth for other high level goods and specific and restricted trade goods that high level characters and outsiders actually want. Souls, magic gems, liquid pain, etc. can all come in with a GP equivalence and the caveat that they can be sold for magic items beyond the scope of that which can be purchased for iron, platinum, or salt.
So the actual new rules are fairly simple:
- Eight Item Limit - even a segregated gold economy will break if people are allowed unlimited Ioun Stones.
- 15000 GP Gold Cap
- 15000 GP Wish Creation Cap - it was in 3rd edition and they took it out for 3.5. That was very bad.
- Items beyond 15000 GP are still purchasable with "high level" trade goods.
- High level trade goods are not creatable with spells like wish - I honestly have no problem with characters making Liquid Pain farms or harvesting the souls of powerful creatures they defeat; but mass production of wealth that can be traded for epic gear has to go.
And that's it. All the spells stay pretty much the same, and the multiverse as described in the Great Wheel cosmology stays essentially as-is.
-Frank
I can't even tell if your hysterics are sincere or not any more. Do you have any other windmills to joust or straw men to incinerate?
Hysterics? Fantastic. And people in this thread asked me to tone down my snarkiness. Good to see you are just as much an a&$##$%.
But lets see if we can't stay on topic. Or is that too difficult for you without tossing insults? Hmm?
- Items beyond 15000 GP are still purchasable with "high level" trade goods.
- High level trade goods are not creatable with spells like wish - I honestly have no problem with characters making Liquid Pain farms or harvesting the souls of powerful creatures they defeat; but mass production of wealth that can be traded for epic gear has to go.
And that's it. All the spells stay pretty much the same, and the multiverse as described in the Great Wheel cosmology stays essentially as-is.
So.
How do you suggest the "high level" trade goods not get acquired through "normal" wealth? Or did you miss that point of mine earlier in my incinerating straw men?
If you can't cement that, this whole exercise is a waste.
Hysterics? Fantastic. And people in this thread asked me to tone down my snarkiness. Good to see you are just as much an a~@**&%.
Well allow me to join their appeal for you to tone it down. While I personally have no problem with being called an a~@**&% and would be perfectly OK with being called that even without the swear masking, such insults are "beyond the scope" of what Paizo wants on their message boards. If you must swear and rage against me personally I suggest that you do so by e-mail, I don't want this thread locked because you can't conform to community standards.
So.How do you suggest the "high level" trade goods not get acquired through "normal" wealth? Or did you miss that point of mine earlier in my incinerating straw men?
How is this even vaguely a problem? The whole premise is that items in the Wish Economy are not considered to be a fair exchange for items in the Gold Economy. That includes both magic items (such as +4 Swords) and Trade Goods (such as Larvae).
So "normal wealth" like Gold can't fairly purchase a +4 Sword, and it can't fairly purchase a pile of souls that could be used to fairly purchase a +4 Sword either.
-Frank
Well allow me to join their appeal for you to tone it down. While I personally have no problem with being called an a~@**&% and would be perfectly OK with being called that even without the swear masking, such insults are "beyond the scope" of what Paizo wants on their message boards. If you must swear and rage against me personally I suggest that you do so by e-mail, I don't want this thread locked because you can't conform to community standards.
But calling peoples posts stupid, absurd, and hysterics is acceptable. Your stupid absurdity is duly noted.
How is this even vaguely a problem? The whole premise is that items in the Wish Economy are not considered to be a fair exchange for items in the Gold Economy.
Because that premise is... Well, to repeat myself, stupid.
This whole thread is about economics, even if there are separate levels of economics.
Lets break it down.
A character (player, or non-player) "graduates" into your "Wish Economy" just a bit after 8th level. Why you want them to enter into that economy 9 levels before they even get to use the very value it is based upon, I'll never know. But this is because a weapon with a total bonus of +3 costs a base of 18,000gps and is outside the range of normal creation in your economic model. Under the current 3.5 system, a caster can create a weapon of a total of +3 bonus at 9th level. So, this is about when the game expects characters to start getting +3 weapons.
Now, at around 9th level, every character needs to start to be able to acquire these "high level" trade goods. If even the Fighter can't acquire them through his own means, that creates a demand for them.
And you have to admit, having a demand is a prime time to start a supply.
Now, once graduated into your "Wish Economy," by its very design precious metals/gems/etc are no longer stressed. Sure they have a use, but at this point it is minimal for your economy model. It would be safe to assume that player characters would be less focused on these precious items, and more focused on the "high level" trade goods. So much so, that acquiring preciouses might not be worthwhile.
Now you create a vacuum of a sorts. A 17th level Wizard could spend 5000+ XP to Wish in an item of 15000 gps or less*... Or he could sell this soul of a CR12 monster he has laying around for 20000 gold - or whatever the market will bear. Then this Wizard could spend the 15000 for an item he would have Wished, and pocket the change.
Once that starts, there is a market for "high level" trade goods in exchange for "normal" wealth.
And if you are suggesting just hand waving that particular aspect of economics away, then you could do that in your own games and leave the rest of the system alone for those that don't want it changed.
And that begs the question; "What use is this thread?"
*EDIT: I forgot to put in the Wizard would be Wishing that item in to existence in order to sell it. Even a 17th level Wizard needs some Gold on hand. There is food, clothing, and other supplies to buy, staff and other hirelings to pay, and (presumably) taxes and other "bills" to pay.
A character (player, or non-player) "graduates" into your "Wish Economy" just a bit after 8th level. Why you want them to enter into that economy 9 levels before they even get to use the very value it is based upon, I'll never know.
You'd already know if you'd been paying attention. 9th level is the lowest level that a Conjurer can bargain himself into wishes using Core material. 9th level is the lowest level that a Cleric can personally transport himself to any of a number of dimensions which inherently invalidate worrying about how much gold or how many minor magic items an individual character has. 9th level is the lowest level that a Transmuter can generate virtually limitless piles of gold measured wealth using core material.
And 9th level happens to also be the level at which characters can produce magic items using time and XP that are outside the grasp of the only vaguely balanced wish guidelines that 3rd edition has ever had. So it's a really good fit. And I've said that several times in numerous ways with bulleted points.
Now, at around 9th level, every character needs to start to be able to acquire these "high level" trade goods. If even the Fighter can't acquire them through his own means, that creates a demand for them.
And you have to admit, having a demand is a prime time to start a supply.
Now, once graduated into your "Wish Economy," by its very design precious metals/gems/etc are no longer stressed. Sure they have a use, but at this point it is minimal for your economy model. It would be safe to assume that...
...characters should start getting medium magic items and equivalent trade goods at 9th level or a bit before? Kind of like how the SRD treasure table hands out Medium Magic Items a few percent of the time for CR 7 and 8 treasures and then sharply increases their distribution at levels 9 and above?
Gosh, it's almost like that's essentially already built into the system.
-Frank
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There can still be an economy in high level goods, it just can't be conductible in Silver and Gold... purchased for iron, platinum, or salt.
Frankly at Epic Level, they should be invested in the civilization of their world. Gold is not what they are looking for. Rather they should be searching for the fragmants of the magical Flying Puzzle-Ship that cost 2.5 million gp and took a wizard 90 years of his life to craft.
It is going to be about Artefacts and secrets that have value (so you reward the PCs with Artefacts and secrets that have a value similar to the Gold you are supposed to be giving them).
Down there at the level of Kingdoms and Baronies and those little income estates, everything costs time, labour, and gold (or the equivelent thereof).
MINING & QUARRYING RULES
Granite Quarry...........1000 cubic feet of Granite/month......5 Labourers......cost 76 oz. of Gold (2375sp).......Granite Weight (76 tons).
What they mine must be sufficiently mineral rich...76 ounces of gold per 1000 cubic feet of rock...Minimum.
This requires 1 ounce of gold per ton of mined ore minimum (alternatively 1/2 ounce of platinum, 10 ounces of silver, or 100 ounces of copper per ton of mined rock).
Minimum Yield of Silver Required From 76 ton block> 23,750sp.
A 9 Gallon Firkin can hold> 25,000sp@500lb weight.
Nope, don't see how those arguments hold water. In both examples, the 17th level Wizard is spending a 'Wish Level' resource to buy a lower level resources like a 'Gold Level' under 15K magic item or 'Turnip Level' food, but in neither case can he trade these lower level items back into a 'Wish Level' resource according to Trollman's proposed rules for a 3-tier magical economy.
Thus, the 17th level magic user is losing out - he should have used non Wish-level magic like Fabricate to get this gold / food / whatever.
Not at all.
First, spells like Fabricate, require a Craft Roll. A roll the the Wizard can't automatically be assumed to be good at. Second, by Franks own admission earlier in the thread, the market needs to exist to sell the items. Something else that can't automatically be assumed for the 17th level Wizard.
Now, the rest requires a bit of assumption on my part... But I would imagine that the "Wish Level" resources have some built in tiers as well. I would imagine the soul of a CR12 crature to be roughly equivilent to a Copper Piece in the "Gold Level." Incredibly useful for a 9th level character - where a CR12 is considered powerful - usually, but virtually useless to a 17th Level Wizard. That is because it is presumed that a CR12 soul can only be used for +3ish items. Now, the 17th level Wizard has little use for a +3 items. They are looking for/need +5 items. That would need stuff like a CR20ish soul. So, when the level 17 Wizard is out with his "adventuring buddies" trying to acquire the CR20ish soul, what do they come across along the way (usually)? CR 14-17ish level souls.
Of course, the soul extraction process could be a lengthy ritual or some such... But then you are doubting the resourcefulness of players - and by extension characters. The very resourcefulness that caused Frank to propose this system in the first place. Hold Monster would be a good start for "farming" lower "high level" trade goods. The kind that take almost no effort for the level the characters are at, but have little to no use to the characters at that level.
And you can't have the soul extraction cost "Gold Level" resources, because you are already setting the stage for "Wish Level" resources to be exchanged for "Gold Level" resources.
A shortened summary would be: A high level character could either 1) use a lower level "Gold Economy" creating spell to maybe create something that might be able to net some "Gold Level" resources, or 2) use a higher level "Gold Economy" creating spell the creates an item that is fairly certain to be in demand - but costs XP to create, or 3) create a semi-useless "Wish Level" (for the caster) resource that there most definitely is a demand for (those 9th-11th ish level Fighters need their +3 weapons you know).
Of course, the "Wish Level" resources could require XP to gain... But at that point you are creating an economy of diminishing returns...
And that creates the question of if anyone would find it useful to even enter that economy then. Why make a +3 weapon - that costs XP, by using a "Wish Level" resource - that costs XP, when a spell (with or without a Metamagic feat) can do nearly the same thing with a little extra bookkeeping.
If your campaign includes magic-crafters who can recycle the XP in magic items then the XP becomes a currency, which would cause your system to break down...Well...YES! This is how you limit people from buying too much stuff. I remember one time, my players decided that they were going to have a whole bunch of stuff crafted in Silverymoon. And they did this.
And suddenly, the wizards told them "Lord Rakthis. You've engaged every item crafter in the city to the point where you can't make anymore items."
Don't think that's quite the point I was making, which was just that if the XP invested into a low-medium level magic item can be recycled into a high level item than Trollman's proposed Turnip/Gold/Wish economy breaks down since the three tiers are no longer separated.
If I interpret you alright, you're saying the local magic-crafters will have a maximum capacity for creating magic items - which is fair enough, but isn't it already covered by the rules on settlements GP limits?
----------------------------------------------------------------------The answer to that would be no. Because settlement GP limits screw the players above level 12, and FORCE them into the largest cities in the world instead of dealing with the campaign theme and tone. Instead, I just figure out who has the feats and who doesn't, how much XP they had available, and when the PC's ran them out, they ran them out.
First, spells like Fabricate, require a Craft Roll. A roll the the Wizard can't automatically be assumed to be good at.
You mean with with his Intelligence of 33? The one that gives him a +11 to Craft rolls? Thats not even assuming that he does anything crazy like turn into a Great Wyrm Gold Dragon and pop it up to 43 for a +16.
You mean with with his Intelligence of 33? The one that gives him a +11 to Craft rolls? Thats not even assuming that he does anything crazy like turn into a Great Wyrm Gold Dragon and pop it up to 43 for a +16.
First, spells like Fabricate, require a Craft Roll. A roll the the Wizard can't automatically be assumed to be good at.
I don't see how you get 33. 18 to start, 4 bumps for 22 and +6 Enhancement only gets 28. EDIT: There is the Inherent bonuses... But those come into conflict with the "Wish Economy" that has been proposed... /EDIT And turning into a Great Wyrm Gold Dragon fails on many levels, not the least of which is you don't gain the Mental attributes of the form you take.
But all that aside, even if I concede this point, what about the problem of needing a market? How may times can you sell a Masterwork Knick Knack and still have people wanting to buy it at the price you are looking for?
You mean with with his Intelligence of 33? The one that gives him a +11 to Craft rolls? Thats not even assuming that he does anything crazy like turn into a Great Wyrm Gold Dragon and pop it up to 43 for a +16.
First, spells like Fabricate, require a Craft Roll. A roll the the Wizard can't automatically be assumed to be good at.I don't see how you get 33. 18 to start, 4 bumps for 22 and +6 Enhancement only gets 28. EDIT: There is the Inherent bonuses... But those come into conflict with the "Wish Economy" that has been proposed... /EDIT And turning into a Great Wyrm Gold Dragon fails on many levels, not the least of which is you don't gain the Mental attributes of the form you take.
But all that aside, even if I concede this point, what about the problem of needing a market? How may times can you sell a Masterwork Knick Knack and still have people wanting to buy it at the price you are looking for?
Yup. Inherent bonuses for the win. (Reread polymorph any object. It specifically gives Intelligence of the monster.)
You do realize that when you can teleport, plane shift and cast gate, you can sell things in any place in existence?
You do realize that when you can teleport, plane shift and cast Gate, you can sell things in any place in existence?
And you do realize, that with those same abilities you are assured a better return, for a similar amount of work, with "Wish Economy" "high level" trade goods?
You do realize that when you can teleport, plane shift and cast Gate, you can sell things in any place in existence?And you do realize, that with those same abilities you are assured a better return, for a similar amount of work, with "Wish Economy" "high level" trade goods?
Thats a matter of opinion. I was pointing out that several of your assumptions are incorrect.
Thats a matter of opinion. I was pointing out that several of your assumptions are incorrect.
Oh, I know.
I was using Frank Trollman's own assumptions used to defend this economic system.
You can't turn into a great Wyrm Gold Dragon at all. Your max HD is limited by your caster level. The highest HD you can shapechange into is 18.
You can't turn into a great Wyrm Gold Dragon at all. Your max HD is limited by your caster level. The highest HD you can shapechange into is 18.
We are talking about polymorph any object, which has no limits of any meaningful nature. You can turn "a creature or object" into "another creature or object" - the only thing that moves up and down is the duration, and you can game that even by casting it more than once (since the duration of the most recent casting is permanently set based on how different the new form is from your current form).
Can I once again state that this system seems to seriously advantage mid to high level spellcasters?
You can state that sure, I won't stop you. I believe that all opinions have a right to be heard even if I disagree with them.
But are you seriously saying that a system that prevents mid to high level casters from turning the unlimited gold production effects that they have in the core rules into Epic Level magic items and golem armies is somehow a benefit to those casters? I definitely don't follow your reasoning here. An 11th level Wizard on the table has as much gold as he feels like possessing either way, in the core rules presentation that translates to him having dozens of staves capable of casting 9th level spells and a Headband of Intellect +12. My presented system allows him to carry around 8 Rings of Minor Resistance or Wands of fireball or whatever.
It's a limit on the Wizard from "unlimited" to "sharply limited." It has no meaningful effect on people who find their equipment and wealth in treasure hoards at all.
-Frank
My poor little English-major brain short-circuited about half a page into this thread, so I won't attempt to question the rather dense economics being bandied about here.
I just have one question - how is this discussion intended to be productive? I agree with the earlier posters that have stated that the economy of D&D is not supposed to be this detailed, or even remotely realistic. Honestly, it's not an aspect of the game that I even worry about - you have x amount of currency y, to buy z amount of stuff. Kill monsters, get more stuff, and more of currency y. Most people play this to whack things with swords, woo princesses, travel through other dimensions, etc...not to balance their imaginary checkbook.
My point being, if you really enjoy economics (as it seems many of you do,) incorporate the changes you want into your own games. It really doesn't have a place in the basic rules. Honestly, I don't think the game even really needs an "economy" at all - just let characters have the gear they need, give them cool treasures to spice things up, and generally assume they have enough money to survive, unless the plot demands otherwise. Remember, we're telling a story, not simulating a second life. When was the last time you watched a movie and truly worried about how the Hero payed for his awesome mirror shades and his leather duster?
I just have one question - how is this discussion intended to be productive?
By suggesting some basic rules that will correct some problems in the current ruleset. Most DMs have to houserule that. A good system doesn't require DMs to houserule around it's own problems.
My point being, if you really enjoy economics (as it seems many of you do,) incorporate the changes you want into your own games.
The rules Frank is suggesting would not result in regular DMs having to calculate mortgage rates for castles. The economic discussion is merely discussing the rationale behind the proposed rules.
That got restated in the latter half of the thread, which you apparently gave up on.
I don't think the game even really needs an "economy" at all
The problem is the game does have an economy right now -- a badly designed one.
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Slightly befuddled by the economy talk above, so this may have been stated already.
Paper money has occasionally been tied to a 'gold standard.' The gold has the inherent value in that system, and the paper is just a promisary note of sorts.
In a world where wizards, priests and psions can create gold (or travel to places where it is in abundance, or tame creatures that can earth glide and root out massive veins of ore in mere moments), gold itself isn't going to be as inherently valuable.
What if gold is the 'promisary note' and the standard is based on something else, such as spellcasting? A king might receive tribute in gold coins (which may or may not have been minted by the wizards guild or the temple of the goddess of earth), but the 'value' of the gold is as a promise of something else, just as the 'value' of paper money has nothing to do with the actual paper it's printed on.
As the temples (and guilds) agree to honor the value of gold in pricing the services they offer (healing, ressurection, item creation, teleportation, divination, etc.), the gold coin is a recognized item of exchange, even if metals and gemstones themselves have been devalued by the high level individuals who have a plethora of ways to create or aquire them.
There would be no rules change needed, only a tacit acknowledgement of how economics would have been forced to adapt to a world where 'precious' metals and stones are anything but.
Different cultures might also vary their 'standard.' In one game, Elves and Halflings prefer to trade in mithral coins (worth 10 gp each, and replacing platinum), while Dwarves prefer alloyed coins of steel, brass, bronze and electrum, as well as the high-level option of adamantine bits (100 gp each) and the venerable trade bars. Gnomes might base their coin off of alchemical principles, with tin, lead and copper being the 'small coin,' the usual silver and gold, and larger denominations being traded in flasks of mercury (25 gp each).
The metals themselves may not be terribly valuable, in a setting where the priests of Garl Glittergold can plane shift to the elemental plane of earth and bring back diamonds the size of their heads by the Haversack-full, but it represents an agreed-upon standard of value in services, like todays paper money.
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Buying and Selling Worlds
Even at the Planar level with the most powerful beings, there would be a trade in the right to plunder a world (or even a Universe) for Slaves, Souls, ect.
Does this mean the PCs could gain such power on their homeworld as to be able to destroy the current "Plunderer" of their world and be able to "Negotiate" in that market place as the new owners?
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Let's make it simple since I'm getting confused myself. I'm a player to a new game using this economic system and I'm starting at 13th level.
1. What can I buy if I'm a fighter or a wizard?
2. What can I make as a 13th level wizard via magic item creation?As an aside, gp in 1E WAS tied directly to character power since 1gp = 1xp which was the stated rule. Remember, you were supposed to get most of your XP from loot in BECM/1E.
Conceivably you couldnt buy a flying ship even if you had squirled away the money. For Unique Magical Objects there is something more than money. There is...Prestiege...Glory...Power.
1. Assumedly you could buy anything with the correct currency in the right marketplace. Perhaps King Risold needs your Million Gold Pieces of Personal Starting Wealth and will sell you a selection of large Vinyards, a small village, and the title of Baron.
If your starting at 13th level character has the need for starting wealth, then the DM might grant him that wealth in the form of an Estate (at least as an option).
Consider a Vinyard of 6 acres: It produces 7 tuns of fine wine annualy - with the merchants buying @ 50gp/gallon that is 208 x 7 =1456 gallons x 50gp = 72,800gp in annual income. It should not seem unreasonable that you could afford such a thing as part of your total wealth. It might even finance a Wizard for 90-100 years while he/she enchants a flying ship.
2. If a Flying Ship costs 2.5 million to enchant, and takes 90-100 years to enchant, the wizard who built it isnt going to part with it but might trade it for years off your life in some terrible swap.
1. What can I buy if I'm a fighter or a wizard?
2. What can I make as a 13th level wizard via magic item creation?
You can buy or create any minor magic items (essentially items appropriate for 1st through 10th level characters). (I personally would not mind ways for people to make magic items with nothing more than proficiency in the Craft Skill, some exotic components and the appropriate bonus. That way even fighters and rogues can make magic items, given the proper know-how, but limited to magic items of appropriate level.)
You can acquire any item appropriate for your level through barter (which includes agreeing to go on an adventure for someone who creates items appropriate for your level).
I'm still not sure why this DOESN'T favour spellcasters.... How do we fix this issue when from my reading, the Economy as described in this thread actually makes it worse?
The problem is item creation rules, which is presently limited to spell casters. (I just created a thread on this very topic in the Skills and Feats area, proposing that non-spell casters be able to learn how to manufacture magic items.)
And that's as much a problem now as it would be under this system. Casters with item creation feats under the above system could not create items unless they could buy them. Essentially item creation feats let casters spend some XP to get magic items at cost.
How do we fix this issue when from my reading, the Economy as described in this thread actually makes it worse?
I'm honestly not sure where you are getting that. A 20th level Fighter finds a 20th level magic item and can swap it for another 20th level item in open exchange. Or he finds himself some planar pearls that are collectively worth a 20th level magic item and he trades those in for a 20th level magic sword.
This is essentially identical to the 3.5 system in which he finds two 20th level items that he doesn't want and sells them for a literal tonne of gold pieces and purchases a 20th level magic sword; or he finds a literal tonne of gold pieces and purchases a 20th level magic sword. The only differences are that:
- He is not expected to haul around a Camry's weight in gold at any point in this process.
- The baseline assumption is that he will actually get a 20th level item he wants (at least eventually) every time he finds a 20th level item, rather than the baseline assumption being that he will only end up with one item he wants for every two items found in treasure troves.
- The Wizard in the party is no longer "entitled" to unlimited wealth and power.
Does this solve the part where high level fighters don't get nice things? No. It does not. But it in no way makes the situation any worse. From the Fighter's perspective it is only a modest improvement if the Wizard had already agreed to "be reasonable." But it's a start. I honestly think that the Fighter's problems run deeper than the fact that they don't have any abilities that directly interact with the economy.
-Frank
FYI: Jason Bulmahn has confirmed:
There will indeed be new treasure tables and wealth guidelines for PCs. I am hoping to get them in the next release.
I wonder if Bulmahn is considering using any ideas expressed here.
I've been wondering, what happens if it is the person whom a magic item is being made for that the XP is taken from, and if only a very restricted number of people can use that magical item (as a magical item) without the expenditure of further XP?Does that fix more problems than it causes? Are there already systems like this?
Honestly paying XP to make Magic items is a bad mechanic and should be done away with. The way XP is handed out in 3rd edition, the less of it you have, the more of it you get for overcoming challenges. As it happens, this means that given time and continued adventuring, a character who spends XP will eventually make it back. So you aren't really losing XP relative to the other players, you are lending it to the universe and taking magic items in return which you get to keep when your XP dividends come in.
I would prefer to have the entire XP-cost system removed. Not only are some people able to bypass XP costs altogether (there's a handful of entirley workable methods in the Book of Vile Darkness alone); but even simply spending the XP and then adventuring normally eventually leads you to the same place you would have been except with extra magic items.
Item Creation should be more like Leadership - where it is simply assumed that you can make a certain number of magic items. I personally suggest a system in which every level you can make a "master piece" which is a magic item of your level, and you can make as many magic items as you want which are X levels below you (say, 4) using only time and trade goods.
High level items require souls and planar pearls and such, low level magic items just require gold for the materials.
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But that is a somewhat separate discussion "How do we fix the item creation rules (which are broken)?" rather than this thread which is "How do we fix the treasure tables/economics section (which is broken)?"
-Frank
My previous post questioned as to why you thought this hypothetical 17th level wizard was selling Wish-level goods for Gold-level goods broke the system, since I thought it would only really break down if there were exploits allowing it to work the other way round
You are partly right. It is sort of cross purposes.
I don't think the system would break in as much as I know it would back fire from what Frank Trollman is trying for.
Frank wants "high power" magic items (anything that costs more than 15000 gold) to not be available to player characters. Well, not directly. He wants to take their availability out of the hands of the players and put it square on the shoulders of the DM. So, to facilitate this, he crafted this "economic system" to justify it. Part of the requirement for this system to work is that anything that costs over 15000 gp can't be purchased with normal wealth.
I have been trying to get Frank to explain how these "high level" trade goods couldn't be purchased with normal wealth. My example shows how it could break in reverse, thus allowing it to break in the "right" way.
If this hypothetical 17th Level Wizard isn't a PC, then the PCs could be the ones purchasing the "high level" trade goods, that aren't supposed to be purchasing the "high level" trade goods with normal wealth.
As a completely different approach: Sooner or later, someone is going to purchase "turnip" grade items with "gold" grade items. So why should "gold" grade items and "wish" grade items not be the same? Besides DM fiat, which works so much better when applied to one game, rather than a whole system.
Frank wants "high power" magic items (anything that costs more than 15000 gold) to not be available to player characters. Well, not directly. He wants to take their availability out of the hands of the players and put it square on the shoulders of the DM. So, to facilitate this, he crafted this "economic system" to justify it. Part of the requirement for this system to work is that anything that costs over 15000 gp can't be purchased with normal wealth.
Could you please start arguing against my actual position?
-Frank
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I would prefer to have the entire XP-cost system removed.
-Frank
On the contrary, the Enchantment costs xp method implied a sacrifice of lifeforce and should be kept (although a change should limit it to Artefacts) thereby making the enchanter vulnerable to the individual wielding the Artefact.
Then Why craft an Artefact? Because this should be a requirement to becomming immortal (a demigod).
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He wants to take their availability out of the hands of the players and put it square on the shoulders of the DM.
I have no idea what game you're playing, but I'm still playing dnd.
Everything is up to the DM all of the time.
Players do not have any say in the availability of items under the current rules.
Part of the requirement for this system to work is that anything that costs over 15000 gp can't be purchased with normal wealth.
Uh.
There is a logic here that you appear not to have grasped.
If you can make a magical item worth 15,000gp then you almost certainly already have the necessary magical power to get lots of money, more than 15,000gp, for less effort than making a magic item and then selling it.
So it would be silly to jump through all of the hoops neceassary to make a Sylan Scimitar(47,315gp) and then find somebody to trade it with when you could more easily Plane Shift onto a big pile of gems, gather them up, and go home with 50 1,000gp gems (emeralds, blue sapphires and star rubies, perhaps).
If you can make a magical item worth 15,000gp then you almost certainly already have the necessary magical power to get lots of money, more than 15,000gp, for less effort than making a magic item and then selling it.
So it would be silly to jump through all of the hoops neceassary to make a Sylan Scimitar(47,315gp) and then find somebody to trade it with when you could more easily Plane Shift onto a big pile of gems, gather them up, and go home with 50 1,000gp gems (emeralds, blue sapphires and star rubies, perhaps).
My best response to you is:
Everything is up to the DM all of the time.
Players do not have any say...