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The Alpha version of Spell Craft includes a combination of Concentration and Spellcraft. The skill is used to maintain concentration on a spell being cast and to identify a spell while it is being cast.
I'd like to suggest keeping Concentration as a unique skill and combining Spellcraft into Knowledge (arcana). Knowledge Arcana already allows the identification of a spell that has been cast by observing its effects, and therefore is somewhat more similar.
Concentration should be expanded to include other areas of the rules that are somewhat 'arcane'. For example, the Control Shapechange ability that lycanthropes have would be a perfect fit in the Concentration category. Other effects that don't involve spell casting but do involve forcing the body to obey can be included. For example, Concentration might be allowed in place of Constitution checks to continue running, for instance.
Concentration would be an appropriate name for the skill.
I agree that in principle your idea has the merit of logic, and it makes perfect intuitive sense.
But in terms of game balance, if Knowledge (religion) is considered a stand-alone skill, then so should Knowledge (arcana). Or is knowing about fey worth a lot less than knowing about undead? (Well, OK, yes it is. You got me there).
Also, if you think about it, Concentration and Spellcraft are more or less both mandatory skills for wizards and sorcerers; an arcane caster COULD fail to max them out, but then he or she would be in many ways unable to perform his or her own class abilities, and that would suck. So from that perspective, combining them saves up a skill that sorcerers can now use on something else.
P.S. Then again, I REALLY like your idea of expanding Concentration! Your example is a good one; another would maybe be a feat that allows you to substitute a Concentration check for a ranged attack roll as full-round action. This idea has some real potential...
Everytime I tinker with Concentration and Spellcraft, I see why they are separate.
I also agree that Spellcraft jives with Kn. Arcana, but I also think it should be apart of Kn. Religion. In other words, the idea that your given method of spellcasting should be melded with your requisite knowledge: divine for religion, arcane with arcana.
Indeed, why would you have to take Concentration as a Wizard?
Because my evil DM always has a schmuck with a wand of magic missile ready an action, forcing me to throw a check every time I try to cast a spell.
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RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16
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I like that spellcraft and concentration are rolled together.
Spellcraft for crafting spells I like it. Of course I'm not fond of the fact that in 3.5 a wizard needed a con based skill to maintain concentration. Wizards are notoriously frail but are mentally focused and to me concentration should be more a mental discipline than a physical one. Now valid aguments can be made both ways for game play but I prefer this one.
As an aside: Without the concentration skill a rogue forced to make a roll for concentrating on a trap or lock should roll a disable device check.
Actually, I like the Spellcraft and Concentration combination. Just like the new rogue combo skills, it provides a good combo skill for spell-casters.
I like the idea of a Concentration skill but would change the game mechanic such that the result of a PC's skill check becomes their "Take 10" result for a non-Social skill that takes time. For example, if a PC has to roll several Acrobatics checks to walk a tight rope, he could make a Concentration check that becomes his base die roll for every Acrobatics check until he stops Concentrating.
I'd like to suggest keeping Concentration as a unique skill and combining Spellcraft into Knowledge (arcana). Knowledge Arcana already allows the identification of a spell that has been cast by observing its effects, and therefore is somewhat more similar.
I agree
Considering that I've never in all of my 3e time seen a spellcaster without Spellcraft and Concentration at max ranks, I see no reason why they shouldn't be combined.
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I have to agree with keeping them separate. Kn - Arcana for arcane casters and Kn - Religion for divine casters. Concentration can be expanded and used for more than not loosing a spell but then it deviates from the core a bit too much.
At one time we were experimenting with allowing casters to make a will save vs 'some long formula' to not loose a spell but I think that DM gave up eventually.
SM
I don't mind rolling Concentration into Spellcraft. Although you could argue that your Con is what keeps you focused when you're getting smacked around, you can also argue that it's mental and not physical.
I'll bet you Stephen Hawking can concentrate pretty good. But I doubt he's got much of a Con bonus. I also figure you could probably light him on fire and it wouldn't impact his ability to think about physics.
Director of Game Design
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When it came to the three big spellcasting skills (Concentration, Knowledge (arcana), and Spellcraft), we decided to break it down to just two.
The split was made between practical knowledge (that is the art of casting a spell, and the knowledge that goes with it) and the theoretical knowledge (that is, the study of arcane arts, or booklearning).
Practical knowledge would be a perfect fit for folding in the Concentration skill, as it represents your actual skill at casting a spell. This knowledge would also cover identifing a spell by its casting alone. This skill became Spellcraft.
Theorectial knowledge covers many of the things covered by Knowledge (arcana) and would also cover the ability to identify spell effects that are in place. As this is in-line with the other Knowledge skill, it was kept as Knowledge (arcana).
Hope that helps clear up the distinction. I feel pretty good about this split, but I would still like to hear your opinions.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
(note that identifing a magic item could also very well fall under Knowledge (arcana) but it was put into Appraise, as that skill covers estimation, and searching for detail. It is not a perfect fit, but it adds great value to an otherwise less valuable skill choice)
I'll bet you Stephen Hawking can concentrate pretty good. But I doubt he's got much of a Con bonus. I also figure you could probably light him on fire and it wouldn't impact his ability to think about physics.
Hawking can concentrate. Word, man.
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When it came to the three big spellcasting skills (Concentration, Knowledge (arcana), and Spellcraft), we decided to break it down to just two.
The split was made between practical knowledge (that is the art of casting a spell, and the knowledge that goes with it) and the theoretical knowledge (that is, the study of arcane arts, or booklearning).
Practical knowledge would be a perfect fit for folding in the Concentration skill, as it represents your actual skill at casting a spell. This knowledge would also cover identifing a spell by its casting alone. This skill became Spellcraft.
Theorectial knowledge covers many of the things covered by Knowledge (arcana) and would also cover the ability to identify spell effects that are in place. As this is in-line with the other Knowledge skill, it was kept as Knowledge (arcana).
Hope that helps clear up the distinction. I feel pretty good about this split, but I would still like to hear your opinions.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer(note that identifing a magic item could also very well fall under Knowledge (arcana) but it was put into Appraise, as that skill covers estimation, and searching for detail. It is not a perfect fit, but it adds great value to an otherwise less valuable skill choice)
In Pathfinder Alpha, concentration is rolled into spellcraft because it is seen as something without value to other classes. Spell casters, and only spell casters, need access to it. I think that has more to do with a failure to use the skill for situations it would be appropriate for. In 3.5 the monk has concentration as a class skill, although he is not a spellcaster. This indicates that the concentration skill is more than just 'not losing a spell'. This additional use, while poorly represented in the core rules is an important distinction in my opinion. I do use Concentration for Control Shapechange since I don't want to add more skills into my game later.
Obviously the skill control shapechange is not in the skill chapter (nor is in the PHB). How will Paizo address that skill issue?
In my current game (started before these rules), we combined hide/move silently into stealth, open lock/disable device into disable device, spot/listen into perception, spellcraft/knowledge (arcana) into knowledge (arcana).
I really like Acrobatics from the Alpha, and will steal it. But I have to say that our combined skills have worked well for us, and I haven't had any issues with my group regarding determining whether the combined skills make sense or not. Unanimously, they agree that these combinations make sense.
I also don't like this combination... at all. This really hurts spellcasters that have good Con and like to wade into a fight. Paladins and Rangers will suffer a bit from this. Paladins in particular otherwise don't have a need for Int, but now if they have to rely on Spellcraft to get a spell off in a clutch combat situation, they'll have a tougher time doing it. I always thought the two were kept separate to help this distinction between front-line and back-line casters. Sure, most Wizards would keep Concentration maxxed anyway, but if the party tactics were working, they rarely needed it. Even with the other uses of Concentration (which in my own games I've rarely run in to), I have a hard time seeing this falling under an Int-based skill. I also think Spellcraft being combined with Knowledge (arcana/religion) is a better idea and Concentration should be left as it was. My Psionics experience is limited, but a Concentration/Autohypnosis combo seems to make a lot of sense as well.
There are a lot of really excellent changes in this system, and I've only read up through the Skills section so far. There are some other things I'm a little hesitant on (Rogues getting Survival for one), but I don't feel I should comment on those until I can tinker with them in an actual game. The Concentration change, however, immediately jumped out as something I would immediately house-rule back to some semblance of the 3.5 version. It just strikes me as wrong. But other than that, I'm very impressed with what's presented.
The split was made between practical knowledge (that is the art of casting a spell, and the knowledge that goes with it) and the theoretical knowledge (that is, the study of arcane arts, or booklearning).
Practical knowledge would be a perfect fit for folding in the Concentration skill, as it represents your actual skill at casting a spell. This knowledge would also cover identifing a spell by its casting alone. This skill became Spellcraft.
Theorectial knowledge covers many of the things covered by Knowledge (arcana) and would also cover the ability to identify spell effects that are in place. As this is in-line with the other Knowledge skill, it was kept as Knowledge (arcana).
Hope that helps clear up the distinction. I feel pretty good about this split, but I would still like to hear your opinions.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer(note that identifing a magic item could also very well fall under Knowledge (arcana) but it was put into Appraise, as that skill covers estimation, and searching for detail. It is not a perfect fit, but it adds great value to an otherwise less valuable skill choice)
Well, what you say about practical knowledge versus theoretical knowledge is a great intellectual distinction, but what does that mean for the game?
I can have practical knowledge of the theory of performing (psychologically what makes people happy) and then the raw talent and ability to do so, but you don't have a Perform and a Knowledge (Performing Arts) skill division.
The functions of Spellcraft (without Concentration) should be moved to the Knowledge (Arcana) and Knowledge (Religion). Each skill lets an arcane or divine caster, respectively, identify spells. Don't make a distinction of whether or not the spell identified is arcane or divine; determine which skill to use based on the skill user.
Concentration should be separate and possibly renamed Endurance. Any task that involves ignoring distractions (including bodily harm) should have a Concentration check. So casting a spell after being damaged, continuing a lock pick despite being hit, continuing to run over a long period, or completing a combat maneuver despite being hit by the attack of opportunity should all have a Concentration check to perform. Also, the Autohypnosis and Control Shapechange skills should be combined with Concentration, as they all involved mentally and physically overcoming distractions. The skill should probably be Concentration-based, as Wisdom already has an important skill (Perception), whereas Constitution does not.
Alternatively, the Concentration skill should be eliminated and all of its uses replaced by a Will save.
The skill should probably be Concentration-based, as Wisdom already has an important skill (Perception), whereas Constitution does not.
Alternatively, the Concentration skill should be eliminated and all of its uses replaced by a Will save.
Wouldn't that actually be a Fortitude save... assuming you still want it to be Constitution based rather than Wisdom based?
I say good riddance to Concentration. All it ever amounted to was a mandatory skill point expenditure for casters. While technically it was also supposed to be used to maintain focus on other skills while distracted, those instances occured extremely rarely (who tries to use Disable Device with an attacker nearby?) and the rule was subsequently easy to overlook and forget.
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I say good riddance to Concentration. All it ever amounted to was a mandatory skill point expenditure for casters. While technically it was also supposed to be used to maintain focus on other skills while distracted, those instances occured extremely rarely (who tries to use Disable Device with an attacker nearby?) and the rule was subsequently easy to overlook and forget.
The argument seems to be that there was a three skill tax on arcane casters. Concentration, Knowledge (arcana), and Spellcraft.
Now there is a two skill tax. The only question is whether it should be Concentration and Knowledge (arcana) or Knowledge (arcana) and Spellcraft.
Personally, I'm a big fan of the former. Despite the explanation of the lead designer, it makes no sense to me. I understand that very intelligent people see the distinction that eludes me. I am also a very intelligent person, but I just don't think the explanation given makes sense.
I have a lot of concerns about Pathfinder Alpha. I don't want to 'spew venom' or attack anyone. I want to make sure that the game Paizo develops is a game that I will want to play. I'm actually willing to invalidate my entire 3.5 library if the Pathfinder stuff is better and a natural evolution of the game I already play. But just as I'm unwilling to switch to 4th edition, I would be unwilling to switch to an edition of the game that is 'not as good'. While I see potential, if Alpha were the final product, it would fall squarely in the 'not as good' category. Now, that is to be expected. While some great minds have been working on it, it needs playtesting.
Practical knowledge would be a perfect fit for folding in the Concentration skill, as it represents your actual skill at casting a spell. This knowledge would also cover identifing a spell by its casting alone. This skill became Spellcraft.
Concentration is also used when non-magical skills provoke attacks of opportunity. What happens to that?
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The functions of Spellcraft (without Concentration) should be moved to the Knowledge (Arcana) and Knowledge (Religion). Each skill lets an arcane or divine caster, respectively, identify spells. Don't make a distinction of whether or not the spell identified is arcane or divine; determine which skill to use based on the skill user.
Concentration should be separate and possibly renamed Endurance. Any task that involves ignoring distractions (including bodily harm) should have a Concentration...
I agree with this wholeheartedly, though I think that Concentration should be called Discipline and that both Autohypnosis and Control Shape should be rolled into it as well with the added bonus that Control Shape be modified so that it shouldn't just apply to lycanthropes, but to all shapechangers period (but that's a topic for another time on another thread...). In my mind, there is a natural synergy that occurs with these three being rolled together.
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Well, in the interests of backwards compatability, I'd keep Concentration called the same thing, but I agree with this change in principle - make Concentration a useful stand-alone skill.
1) Use it for casting defensively.
2) I like the idea of rolling Control Shape into it.
3) Have characters with Concentration able to avoid generic attacks of opportunity - that is a *huge* boost. Imagine an archer being able to shoot without an attack of opportunity, or use a magic item? That'd be worth the skill points right there.
I believe I am in agreement that Concentration should be separate, and that Spellcraft should be rolled into the Knowledge skills; what is it but an exotic knowledge skill? Isn't that the idea that lead to Alchemy becoming Craft (Alchemy) when 3.0 became 3.5?
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My vote is to keep Concentration a seperate, since it can be used for non spell casting uses, I'm also all for rolling Control Shape in it.
As for Spellcraft I am generally in favor fo combining skills when possible but the only option I can think of would be to make it part of Knowledge(arcane) or Knowledge(relgion) for arcane spells(or checks) or divine spells respectivly, although this does seem that it could actually be more complicated in play.
Count me as having been definitely converted to the "combine Spellcraft and Knowledge (arcana), and expand the uses for Concentration as a separate skill (including control shape and autohypnosis)" camp. Despite Jason's explanations, the logic of the majority scenario proposed in this thread impresses me a lot. That system is what I'll most likely use, regardless of whether Paizo buys into it.
I agree with combining Knowledge(arcana) and Spellcraft - possibly using Knowledge(religion) instead of arcana for divine spells.
In my game (also started before Pathfinder was announced/released) I've combined the endurance rules with Concentration into an Endurance skill for simplification - used for things like wearing armour when sleeping, casting spells while taking damage or otherwise interrupted, forced marching, etc.
While at face value it may seem odd, it makes sense the more I think about it that someone who can ignore an arrow in the guts to keep on casting a spell can also shut out the pain of weary legs and a parched throat to keep on walking through the desert... and it makes it much more useful to monks as a class skill (I've also made it a fighter class skill, for obvious reasons).
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When it came to the three big spellcasting skills (Concentration, Knowledge (arcana), and Spellcraft), we decided to break it down to just two.
The split was made between practical knowledge (that is the art of casting a spell, and the knowledge that goes with it) and the theoretical knowledge (that is, the study of arcane arts, or booklearning).
Practical knowledge would be a perfect fit for folding in the Concentration skill, as it represents your actual skill at casting a spell. This knowledge would also cover identifing a spell by its casting alone. This skill became Spellcraft.
Theorectial knowledge covers many of the things covered by Knowledge (arcana) and would also cover the ability to identify spell effects that are in place. As this is in-line with the other Knowledge skill, it was kept as Knowledge (arcana).
Hope that helps clear up the distinction. I feel pretty good about this split, but I would still like to hear your opinions.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer(note that identifing a magic item could also very well fall under Knowledge (arcana) but it was put into Appraise, as that skill covers estimation, and searching for detail. It is not a perfect fit, but it adds great value to an otherwise less valuable skill choice)
If Spellcraft (combined with Concentration) represents the practical application of spells vs. the theoretical nature of Knoweldge:Arcane.
and
Caster level represents practical application.
Then wouldn't all leveled casters inherently have Spellcraft? It's like offering 'Weaponry' as a skill and then giving fighters the option not to take it.
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My issue with Concentration being rolled into Spellcraft regards Intelligence vs. Constitution being the primary stat. One could even argue that if a mental stat was going to control Concentration it would be Wisdom (i.e. Willpower) before it would be your intellectual capacity. This really does not make sense to me.
I really like the new skill system, but this is one glaring mistake in my opinion, and puts wizards at a huge advantage over the other spellcasting classes. Concentration was a skill that all casters had to keep trained, and none of the spellcasting classes had a built-in bonus because Constitution did not power the spells of any class.
Also, at this point Constitution powers exactly zero skills at this point, which may or may not have been done on purpose.
You can add me to the keep Concentration separate from KN: Arcana/Spellcraft. I like the 'trifecta' option of Concentration-Autohypnosis-Control Shape and would even add the 'Endurance' skill from SWSE. At that point, renaming it 'Discipline' might fit better.
The continued existence and rules text for the Combat Casting feat argues against this theory.
I agree, and when I used a Bone Creature Necromancer against my PCs last session, he was using the "cast defensively" option the whole fight.
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When it came to the three big spellcasting skills (Concentration, Knowledge (arcana), and Spellcraft), we decided to break it down to just two.
The split was made between practical knowledge (that is the art of casting a spell, and the knowledge that goes with it) and the theoretical knowledge (that is, the study of arcane arts, or booklearning).
Practical knowledge would be a perfect fit for folding in the Concentration skill, as it represents your actual skill at casting a spell. This knowledge would also cover identifing a spell by its casting alone. This skill became Spellcraft.
Theorectial knowledge covers many of the things covered by Knowledge (arcana) and would also cover the ability to identify spell effects that are in place. As this is in-line with the other Knowledge skill, it was kept as Knowledge (arcana).
Hope that helps clear up the distinction. I feel pretty good about this split, but I would still like to hear your opinions.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer(note that identifing a magic item could also very well fall under Knowledge (arcana) but it was put into Appraise, as that skill covers estimation, and searching for detail. It is not a perfect fit, but it adds great value to an otherwise less valuable skill choice)
I would actually recommend incorporating Use Magic Device into one of these skills. Knowledge (arcana) seems like a good fit to me, but seeing your description of Spellcraft, I may be wrong. What I don't see is using a magical device by tricking it (or charming it) into working, but rather understanding the principles that make it operate and jimmying it to work. I never really understood Use Magic Device (Cha). Seemed misguided.
That said, I don't see why you couldn't just combine all the skills into one lump skill, like Arcana. Of course, this is the danger with condensing skills. Once you start, it becomes hard to stop.
Personally, I'm of the "Retain Concentration as a skill" mindset, as by the current rules Concentration does come into play for skills where you can possibly suffer an attack of opportunity (Such as Disable Device).
Spellcraft, itself could have one of two things done with it...
1) Roll it into Knowledge Arcane/Religion/Psionics. These three Knowledge skills would be used the same way as Spellcraft is now. However, it would come down to the DM to provide a penalty if it falls outside you field of knowledge, say -5 or so. For example, a Cleric sees somebody casting a spell, a Wizard in this case. As he may not have Knowledge/Arcane, the cleric uses his Knowledge/Religion for the check. As he may not know if it is an Arcane caster of a robed Druid, the DM applies the -5 penalty to the check. Of course, if it was a Druid, the Cleric could bring to bear the full breath of his knowledge to the skill.
2) Keep Spellcraft in addition to Concentration as separate skills, however, roll in the Use Magic Device skill into Spellcraft.
Myself, I would lean towards option 1. As Spellcraft sits now, a Cleric is just as capable as a Wizard of identifying a arcane spell being cast or effect. Which, to me, doesn't seem quite right. The mechanics to which a Cleric and Wizard approach their respective arts are not really the same, and as such, their own fields of knowledge, at their cores, are different.
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Concentration does tend to be an underused skill with lots of potential. I like the notion of making concentration checks under duress. Turn a full action move into a standard action or use it on a skill that presents an attack of opportunity. It might even be a nice asset to improve a ranged attack or ranged or melee damage.
That said, we hardly ever saw concentration get used in our campaigns.
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I love most of the things being done with the Pathfinder Alpha Rules.
I agree in trimming down the skills a bit, as well.
That being said, having playtested the Alpha Rules now, I see one glaring issue with maintaining the Concentration into Spellcraft has done:
Clerics tend to need to cast defensively quite often - in fact more often than wizards. They are usually in the thick of the fight, and their spells are needed to stabilize etc and keep someone alive to heal them.
Making Concentration an INT based skill effectively lowers the chance for a cleric to have a good success rate, as Clerics tend to have much better Constitution scores than Intelligence scores. This will also prove true for Sorcerers.
After playtesting, it became glaringly apparent to our group to be doubly beneficial to Wizards.
If I may post my opinions: Have Divine Spells be "identified" by Knowledge Religion. Arcane Spells "identified" by K.Arcana. Concentration as its own skill and if it doesnt have enough applicable aspects of Concentration - use some of the other great ideas on this thread to be incorporated into the skill. (this still eliminates "Spellcraft" - thus succeeding in trimming down one of the skills)
Regardless of what happens to the spellcraft and k.arcane/religion skills, I strongly suggest not making the Concentration an INT based skill. Clerics really get shafted by that at the very least.
Robert
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Spellcasting is rarely disrupted now. I don't want to see it get even more difficult. It's one of the few balancing factors to the ridiculous power of the high-level wizard/cleric.
You could try my house rule I've been using for years for casting Defensively:
DC 10 + BAB of the person that threatens you + level of spell
(+2 for each additional foe who threatens you).
For example a 10th level fighter threatening you would create a DC 20 + spell level. 2 such fighters would be DC 22 + spell level.
I've always had a problem with the stagnant DCs of skills such as this and Tumble that requires little attention to it with skill points once you get like a +12 or so at about 6th level.
Robert
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In my old game, we had combined Spellcraft in Knowledge (arcana) and Knowledge (religon). The basic idea was that A cleric might recognize a divine spell, since similar teachings areuniversal regardless of diety. On the other hand, he might not recognize an arcane spell, even if it was familiar, due to the differences between arcane spellcasting and divine spellcasting. This made since since Spellcraft and Knowledge are both INT skills. COncentration is a CON skill. We left Concentration alone.
You could try my house rule I've been using for years for casting Defensively:DC 10 + BAB of the person that threatens you + level of spell
(+2 for each additional foe who threatens you).
For example a 10th level fighter threatening you would create a DC 20 + spell level. 2 such fighters would be DC 22 + spell level.
I've always had a problem with the stagnant DCs of skills such as this and Tumble that requires little attention to it with skill points once you get like a +12 or so at about 6th level.
Robert
Actually, I like that house rule... I do believe I may make use of that one myself. Provided you don't mind. :o)
You use the same basic formula for Tumble checks also?
(Sorry for the derail... )
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You could try my house rule I've been using for years for casting Defensively:DC 10 + BAB of the person that threatens you + level of spell
(+2 for each additional foe who threatens you).
For example a 10th level fighter threatening you would create a DC 20 + spell level. 2 such fighters would be DC 22 + spell level.
I've always had a problem with the stagnant DCs of skills such as this and Tumble that requires little attention to it with skill points once you get like a +12 or so at about 6th level.
Robert
Actually, I like that house rule... I do believe I may make use of that one myself. Provided you don't mind. :o)
You use the same basic formula for Tumble checks also?
(Sorry for the derail... )
I posted this once before - but it disappeared.
yes, feel free to borrow the house rule; that's why i shared it.
I've been using that notion for years - and tumble works the same way.
DC 10 + BAB of opponent being tumbled past (DC 20 BAB to go THROUGH the occupied square).
DC increased by +2 for every additional threatened square you attempt to tumble through. So a 10th level fighter would provide a DC 20 tumble check for the rogue. 2 such fighters would be DC 22. Only ONE dice roll is done. If you get a 21 then you avoid the AoO from one but not both. If tumbling past varying BABs - you still only roll one tumble check - and you avoid AoO from any your result is enough to succeed with and those you fail against still get to attack you.
The reason this rule came about is because in its current system, it requires the same level of success to tumble past a club-footed one-eyed peasant weilding a rolling pin as you do against a great red wyrm. (DC 15). With Synergy bonus, and a good dex this is attainable without chance of failure at about 4th level (7 ranks, +5 for dex, and +2 for synergy means you succeed with a 1!
My system fluctuates making it an "opposed" roll based on the prowess of the person(s) you're trying to evade.
But this thread isn't suppose to be about my house rules - so I apologize for hijacking this thread: feel free to return to debating concentration vs spellcraft.
Robert