For quite a while Paizo has been saying they didn't know what they would do: stick with 3.5, switch to 4e, or make their own system. With the "speed" that the alpha rules were posted (I think there was a hint last week that this was coming), does this indicate that Paizo was actually planning this for quite awhile. Also take into account the following quote from the blog.
What did you have in mind when you first starting working on the Pathfinder RPG?[/b]
Since we first realized a new edition of the game was imminent, Paizo developed several plans for how we would adapt to the new publishing environment. One of those options involved ongoing support of 3.5. Since last summer, I've been experimenting with the rules, tweaking the things I thought needed some work and reinforcing the parts that I liked. When Paizo made the decision to go full steam ahead with ongoing 3.5 support, I brought the rules into the office and we began poring over them as a team. A lot of great work came out of the past few months with nearly everybody in our editorial staff offering up suggestions and ideas to make the rules even better.
Notice the last sentence, "... came out of the past few months ...".
For quite a while Paizo has been saying they didn't know what they would do: stick with 3.5, switch to 4e, or make their own system. With the "speed" that the alpha rules were posted (I think there was a hint last week that this was coming), does this indicate that Paizo was actually planning this for quite awhile. Also take into account the following quote from the blog.
Notice the last sentence, "... came out of the past few months ...".What did you have in mind when you first starting working on the Pathfinder RPG?[/b]
Since we first realized a new edition of the game was imminent, Paizo developed several plans for how we would adapt to the new publishing environment. One of those options involved ongoing support of 3.5. Since last summer, I've been experimenting with the rules, tweaking the things I thought needed some work and reinforcing the parts that I liked. When Paizo made the decision to go full steam ahead with ongoing 3.5 support, I brought the rules into the office and we began poring over them as a team. A lot of great work came out of the past few months with nearly everybody in our editorial staff offering up suggestions and ideas to make the rules even better.
I think they were planning for everything, just in case. Since WotC has still to let any developers see the 4th ed rules. I think this might have forced their hand. BUT I don't honestly think they lied.
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For quite a while Paizo has been saying they didn't know what they would do: stick with 3.5, switch to 4e, or make their own system. With the "speed" that the alpha rules were posted (I think there was a hint last week that this was coming), does this indicate that Paizo was actually planning this for quite awhile.
I think it indicates they were just covering their bases to account for every possibility. They're game designers, I wouldn't be surprised if they had enough material to fill 18,295,209 books just lying around the office in giant stacks.
Have a look at the first sentence: Paizo developed several plans...
I think that they tried to keep the decision open as long as possible and prepared several options - what we see now is one of those options. Telling the public about one of their plans including an 3.paizo ruleset would be tantamount to fanning the fire of 3.5 vs. 4e. That a paizo ruleset was a possibility has been obvious for months if you followed the messageboards. Now accusing paizo of lying is nonsense.
Stefan
Take a look at Jason's Intro to the alpha doc. He points out that he began a 3.5 update as a side project. A lot of people didn't like the direction of 4.0 (they saw it as a totally different game that has very little in common with the progression that 3.5 showed from 3.0, 2.0, and 1.0), so he did what a lot of people have done: 3.75
Paizo took some time to decide what they were going to do and happened to pick up Jason's version. They *may* have decided to go that route a little earlier than two days ago, but probably felt they needed to have something to actually show when they made their announcement.
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Just because they have been working on this for the last couple months does not mean they had decided to go with 3.5 all those months ago. I think they had to make a decision and since WotC kept dragging their feet they decided to stick with what works.
I also think the D&D experience and play testers comments were enough to make a decision on without seeing the GSL rules. I am guessing they probably decided awhile ago but of course they wanted to get everything lined up nicely before they announced it. They probably took some notes from how poorly 4E was announced and tried to avoid that.
Erik Mona stated in Pathfinder chat that they always had a Plan A and a Plan B. Publishing deadlines, Jason's DDXP report, and other factors all combined to prompt them to activate one of those Plans.
In a perfect world, actually seeing the rules would also have been a factor in the decision, but it wasn't to be.
Side Note:
Pres Man.. I appreciate the instinct to grab attention with a sensational subject line, but I think this was gratuitous. Lying is for, most people, still a very strong word.
Covering their bases... The book so far is great but honestly its not something that would require Paizo to have put in so much time that they would have had to been deceptive. There's alot thus far, yes, but not yet so much that Paizo would have suffered a major development loss should they have decided to go with 4e instead.
I think/hope you know what I mean by this....
This makes me laugh.
First, let me say that I was NOT one of the people who got all screechy about WotC's secrecy - secrecy is a necessity in business. That said, of course Paizo lied, but they did it skillfully, so that it was more of a just 'not telling the whole truth' kind of lie. Sure the final decision was not yet made: the GSL might have looked BEAUTIFUL and all Jason's work written off. But they didn't tell us their little secret, did they.
We should have known... since Erik's poll.
Frankly, I lie more: 'really, I didn't buy a new gaming rulebook sweetheart'.
For once sebastian, I completely agree with you. ;)
No need to respond. I think you've all done a marvelous job responding for us. :-)
No need to respond. I think you've all done a marvelous job responding for us. :-)
´twas rather obvious.
Stefan
No need to respond. I think you've all done a marvelous job responding for us. :-)
I just hope everyone at Paizo doesn't take offense when I said that the project so far wasn't enough to be a major loss... which, I think I know what you mean. You've really offered us a great deal, FREELY at that, thus far, but Pathfinder RPG is not so developed (or I *think*) at this moment that it would have been a major loss in production hours and payroll dollars should you have decided to go with 4th edition instead.
This makes me laugh.
- secrecy is a necessity in business.
Frankly, I lie more: 'really, I didn't buy a new gaming rulebook sweetheart'.
I imagine it went like this: Paizo business planners "We need plans about what to do about 4E. You, you, and you brainstorm."
Jason: "I have this thing I've been fiddlin' with"
P.B.P.: "Run with it, we may need it"
As always, the person in the right place at the right time takes the prize. I'm an academic (English) and we often see interesting conferences and call-for-papers that journals put out. Being able to respond depends entirely upon what you might have written in your draw--of-essay.
Did they lie about their plans? No, they were very straightforward about them! You can prepare for multiple contingencies at once y'know! Sheesh.
-The Gneech
I think Paizo has excelled at making one, fantastic products and, two, making good buisness decisions. By parternering with Necromancer Games on 4e products, and releasing the Pathfinder RPG, they are able to cover both bases, keep producing quality products (Except that Carnival of Cr@p module) and keep their customers who like 4e and 3.5 happy.
The hard part will be keeping the changes that are happening in 4e out of the Pathfinder RPG. I've noticed that many of the posts on the boards about changes are fairly major, and not the little tweeks that keep the game 3.5 and backward compatable.
ASEO out
Chief Technical Officer
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No need to respond. I think you've all done a marvelous job responding for us. :-)I just hope everyone at Paizo doesn't take offense when I said that the project so far wasn't enough to be a major loss... which, I think I know what you mean. You've really offered us a great deal, FREELY at that, thus far, but Pathfinder RPG is not so developed (or I *think*) at this moment that it would have been a major loss in production hours and payroll dollars should you have decided to go with 4th edition instead.
I understand what you're saying, and your supposition is correct: this has mostly been a side project for Jason; it hasn't been anybody's *job* until very recently.
One of the things that We've all seen from Paizo is their skill at preparing for every contingency. Take when WotC took back Dungeon and Dragon. WotC had alot of vague plans and even more it's gonna be so cool, but not alot of meat. Paizo on the other hand had a barage of information for us along with Pathfinder ready to go. (if I remember right, I got my first issue of Pathfinder the same month as my last issue of Dungeon. Don't quote me, but if not it was very close together.) Since then, Paizo has mobilized into a publishing army while designing and implementing one of the best settings that I've ever seen. Then WotC announces 4E (Which seems like it was leaked, because they really didn't seem to have anything ready to go for the announcment.) In this timeframe, WotC's production grinded to a halt. There has really been nothing of substance put out for 3.5 other than some advertisments disguised as books and a collection of essays by their staff about what 4E kinda might look like. During the same time, look at what Paizo has put out. Rise of the Runelords, Gamemastery, A Miniature line, Item cards, The Harrow Deck. And I know I'm missing a few. Most other Ogl companies from what I understand have stopped production waiting for the GSL, leaving Paizo standing alone with Whitewolf as the only ones putting out new stuff. (On this note, The shelves at the Barns & Noble are looking kind of bare.)
Then WotC hims and haws around getting the GSL out meaning that even if these companies get the GSL it will take months to get new product on the shelf. WotC is saying that the Forgotten Realms Campaign setting isn't comming out until August, and Eberron isn't slated until 2009? I was looking at Paizo's solicitation for the rest of this year. At least one book a month, plus Pathfinder, Plus Gamemastery.
I think that Paizo has a history of being prepared, running their company like a business, and remembering that they have employes to play. They don't have Hasbro footing the bill until the new system can get up and running.
I'll agree with Black Dragon... Paizo has been very prepared and on the ball.
If I had been in their shoes, I would have had plans in place for: a) changing to 4E; b) releasing new 3.5 material, and; c) alien invasion. Because ya know, you can't be too careful.
Vendle,
I entirely agree... one can never be too safe... I normally opt for alien invasion myself, though I'm a bit retro and prefer silver saucers with green or red glass domes.(fueled by progressive rock music and an incense hyperburner of course)
Actually most of our contingency plans revolve around zombie uprisings.
Never did like zombie uprisings. Always got to take consideration on origin and type of zombies too.
Actually most of our contingency plans revolve around zombie uprisings.
And on the subject of secrecy, care to give us a clue which side you'll be on in said uprisings?
Because some of us like to plan, too.
Forget Zombies and Aliens, most of my contigency plans relvolve around "when will MicroSoft take over the world?" ~thinks~ Darn! Too late! They have already done so.
Actually most of our contingency plans revolve around zombie uprisings.What about zombies created by aliens? I'd suggest at least ... eight contingency plans. Possibly nine.
(An old Misfits tune)
<singing>"with just one touch of my burning hand I'll send my astrozombies to rape this land, prime directive, exterminate, the human race....."</singing>
To be fair, the minis are by Crocodile Games. (And we've got word they're in transit to our warehouse!)
Woo Hoo!!!
Actually most of our contingency plans revolve around zombie uprisings.
Creating or defending against?
Forget Zombies and Aliens, most of my contigency plans relvolve around "when will MicroSoft take over the world?" ~thinks~ Darn! Too late! They have already done so.What's 'MicroSoft'? I tried LEFT CLICK, LOOK UP IN DICTIONARY, but OS X had no definition...
...
Noooo!!! They (MicroSoft) has gotten to you too! Ignorance is their most powerful weapon!
For quite a while Paizo has been saying they didn't know what they would do: stick with 3.5, switch to 4e, or make their own system. With the "speed" that the alpha rules were posted (I think there was a hint last week that this was coming), does this indicate that Paizo was actually planning this for quite awhile. Also take into account the following quote from the blog.
I suspect if you really look you'll find that nowhere does Paizo say they will stay with a strict version of 3.5.
In fact if you look around you can find a post by Eric Mona made on October 23rd 2007 that states explicitly that if Paizo where to make a clean break with WotC they would create a 'Pathfinder RPG'.
At that point, it seems, Paizo would be producing a "Pathfinder" RPG that would be wholly independent of Dungeons & Dragons and Hasbro's plans. Such a plan carries with it considerable risk, but it may be the only serious option available to us for 2008.
I think the 'lying' took place in peoples imagination. It was just generally presumed that if Paizo did not go with 4E then of course they would produce a product that fit in with the posters own bias on what they wanted to see.
Those that wanted Paizo to remain strict to the SRD presumed that Paizo staying 3.5 would mean Paizo not touching the rules and just making 3.5 adventures. The rules where fine and any broken ones have long ago been house ruled. This insures that ones large investment in books remains perfectly viable. Sure the Sword Sage etc. will have to be worked into the product but the DM has always had to do that.
Then there where those that wanted some version of 3.Paizo. This group is split between those that just want the really big bugs squashed. version 3.70 of the rules if you will. Any rule changes would look more like Monte's book of Experimental Might then anything else.
The other half of the 3.Paizo group wanted something more extreme. They might have even initially been excited by the announcement of 4E but then WotCs brilliant marketing strategy kicked in and the changes where profound and for many not exactly welcome. This group wants version 3.80. The rules can do with a major over haul - lots out there that can be improved on. Fundamentally it'd be the same game but with a significant engine upgrade. Things might not be very backwards compatible but the game itself would run far better and would allow for significant additional material down the line.
Each group believed that their version of 3.5 was what Paizo would create if they did not go 4E, but I suspect that you'd find that if you actually read what Eric etc. were saying then they don't tell mistruths about their plans.
..........mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmBRAINS!...............
Cos is leading us!
I think Paizo has excelled at making one, fantastic products and, two, making good buisness decisions. By parternering with Necromancer Games on 4e products, and releasing the Pathfinder RPG, they are able to cover both bases, keep producing quality products (Except that Carnival of Cr@p module) and keep their customers who like 4e and 3.5 happy.
The hard part will be keeping the changes that are happening in 4e out of the Pathfinder RPG. I've noticed that many of the posts on the boards about changes are fairly major, and not the little tweeks that keep the game 3.5 and backward compatable.
ASEO out
Hey ASEO,
Long Time. No see.
..........mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmBRAINS!...............
Cos is leading us!
Dangit, Paizo! I knew you were facilitating!
I feel so, so, betrayed.
Well, as long as they show up with my latest order, I guess the brains aren't a bad tradeoff. I wasn't using them much, anyway.
Actually most of our contingency plans revolve around zombie uprisings.
If you get a chance, pick up "The Zombie Survival Guide" at your local book store. It's a must have for paranoid, heavily armed people living in a bunker.
During the same time, look at what Paizo has put out. Rise of the Runelords, Gamemastery, A Miniature line, Item cards, The Harrow Deck.To be fair, the minis are by Crocodile Games. (And we've got word they're in transit to our warehouse!)
Sweet, my goblins are comming!
Thanks for the respect folks. ;)
Anyway, the reason I thought it might be misleading is if you go back to the quote, you see:
It appears from the quote that:
1. A decision was made (assumably that would be the decision to go with PRG).
2. Then Jason brought the ideas he had been working to the office.
3. Then a few months past with the editorial staff offering suggestions.Now maybe that is not how it happened. But reading the quote makes it appear as if that is how it happened. Now maybe the problem is just my reading compression, or maybe Jason just mispoke.
Actually most of our contingency plans revolve around zombie uprisings.Creating or defending against?
With the amount of time Gary reportedly spends at the Paizo offices I'm going to go with the third guess of "turned into".
Thanks for the respect folks. ;)
Anyway, the reason I thought it might be misleading is if you go back to the quote, you see:
It appears from the quote that:
1. A decision was made (assumably that would be the decision to go with PRG).
2. Then Jason brought the ideas he had been working to the office.
3. Then a few months past with the editorial staff offering suggestions.Now maybe that is not how it happened. But reading the quote makes it appear as if that is how it happened. Now maybe the problem is just my reading compression, or maybe Jason just mispoke.
I think that if WotC had been on the spot with the GSL and had it in their hands when 4E was released, Paizo wouldn't have had to come up with plan B (And C & D.) Your Conspiracy theory around this I find odd. I'm sorry, but given the way WotC has handled 4E, I would have been leaning away from it too. (Oh, wait, I did lean away from it.) Not many business can remain static for six months waiting to make a product at someone elses whim.
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Thanks for the respect folks. ;)
Anyway, the reason I thought it might be misleading is if you go back to the quote, you see:
...
Now maybe the problem is just my reading compression, or maybe Jason just mispoke.You're right if Jason didn't misspeak.
I also don't care because A) PF:RPG rules were given out freely the day they were announced and B) the crunch is OGL.
I can't imagine what kind of excited I would be for 4e if WotC had done the same thing at GenCon last year. Heck, I might not even be BUYING Paizo products any more. As it is, we've got one company that is showing us the cool stuff up front, and another one that isn't.
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Chief Creative Officer, Publisher
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This makes me laugh.
First, let me say that I was NOT one of the people who got all screechy about WotC's secrecy - secrecy is a necessity in business. That said, of course Paizo lied, but they did it skillfully, so that it was more of a just 'not telling the whole truth' kind of lie. Sure the final decision was not yet made: the GSL might have looked BEAUTIFUL and all Jason's work written off. But they didn't tell us their little secret, did they.
We should have known... since Erik's poll.
Frankly, I lie more: 'really, I didn't buy a new gaming rulebook sweetheart'.
I like the coda at the end. Funny.
See the above comment about Plan A and Plan B.
--Erik