Grapple in practice

Combat & Magic

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Oh and in regards to the "grabbing the family jewels", eye gouging, biting, fingerbreaking, hairpulling acts not done in wrestling or grappling...I think you fail to realize how dirty some grapplers, fighters , and wrestlers are.

I've had each one of these things done to me by a person I've beaten in actual competition... The only really dirty thing I can think of that I have not had somebody try to do to me is fishhook, but I have seen it tried.

Scarab Sages

Vigil wrote:

I have a small playtest experience to add.

Ran my group (now 3rd level) in Home Under The Range by Michael Kortes. The first actual fight of the night was against a choker adept 2. With the changes to size penalties and improved grab only giving a +2, I calculated her CMB for grappling at +7. Per the encounter tactics, she tried to grapple a foe from hiding to drag into an acid pool. I grabbed for the rogue. CMB of only +2. I couldn't do better than "grabbed," and she escaped before I could try again the next round with the extra +5, so I don't know if the results would have been any different.

I'm fine with grappling being a little harder, but a monster that relies on grappling for it's CR (like the choker) really suffers under the current rules.

Isn't a choker the size of a toddler?

It probably shouldn't be able to 'drag off' a struggling human.

It could wait near a slippery ledge, and wrap its arms round someone's legs, forcing them to take a Balance check, or fall into the pool, maybe?

Did you allow it two consecutive grapple attempts, to allow for its supernatural quickness?

Liberty's Edge

David Jackson 60 wrote:
Pain compliance works because most people aren't used to pain. An untrained person will often shut down a bit when pain is inflicted, which supports the concept of pain compliance. This doesn't work with trained fighters, or by people who have overcome their natural reactions in a dangerous situation.

Pain tolerance is not pain immunity. Past a certain point, only someone completely drugged out will not react to pain.

David Jackson 60 wrote:
One of my fights I got . . .

I have absorbed a considerable amount of punishment as well.

And delivered a considerable amount of punishment.
In sports competition.
In actual fights, where the person was still not trying to kill me, things proceeded differently.
Intent is an overwhelming factor in understanding the different requirements.

David Jackson 60 wrote:
In this sense, I would say that every D&D character is a well trained combatant with the ability to deal with pain. Given that, I would say that pain causing a grapple to break would be an action of intelligence and not a pain compliance to shut the person down.

It is not pain compliance.

It is pain shock.
The same thing you can focus yourself to resist when prepared can shock you into a sudden move, as you acknowledge, in other circumstances.
Also, pain compliance is for when you want prisoners. If you just want a corpse, pain compliance is not merely irrelevant, it is a waste of effort, again as you acknowledge. All you are going for is pain shock to provoke a response to achieve a specific end. (An end you would preferably go for directly if at all possible. Twenty move sequences have twenty potential failure points.)

David Jackson 60 wrote:
Oh and in regards to the "grabbing the family jewels", eye gouging, biting, fingerbreaking, hairpulling acts not done in wrestling or grappling...I think you fail to realize how dirty some grapplers, fighters , and wrestlers are.

No, I do not. I know many, many ways to get around rules, and many ways to take a single warning to hurt an opponent enough to gain an advantage for the rest of a match.

I just keep it in perspective - breaking a rules of a sports competition for a temporary advantage to win a sports contest. It is only "dirty" in a sports context.
In a fighting context, no such concept exists.

Thraxus wrote:
Jason Bulmahn wrote:

At this time, I think I want to see more feedback about the system in actual use. I look forward to reading the reports.

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer

I was curious how a purlpe worm would fair against a fighter in the PFRPG system (for the purpose of its swallow whole ability).

Using a 12th level fighter with an 18 Strength, the fighter has a +16 vs the purple worms +32. The worm needs a 9 or better to grapple the fighter. You may need to define how "held" and "grabbed" would work in this case.

The big problem with all of this is that the fighter can never break free (even with the Escape Artist skill) and that failure would give the worm a +5 to the check to swallow him. Even if a failed swallow attemp gave the fighter a +5 to escape (if the worm needs another "grappled" result), he still could not succeed (worm CMB 32+10=42; Fighter maxed CMB roll 16+5+20=41).

The results are just as bad with the T-Rex.

The problems crops up with high Strength and either size or high BAB. Having a static DC can create situations where a character can never escape. Of course, that existed in 3.5 already.

I will concede, it may be easier to fix the improved grab/swallow whole ability.

of course getting swallow is usally the best thing in that situation. A 16th level fighter could get out in 1 round and likly take less damage then if the worm simply chewed on him.

David Jackson 60 wrote:
Chuck Liddel is one of these people...he's managed to stuff or immediately recover the takedown attempts of Randy Couture, Kevin Randleman, Jeremy Horn, Tito Ortiz, Jeff Monson, and Renato Sobral.

I haven't seen any MMA since coming to China, a few years before actually, I'm really interested in seeing this guy. When I used to watch a lot of matches would grind to a halt when the grappling went tight.

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