Michael Miller 36 |
There's a lot of good improvements but don't you think some can be condensed more?
Do you really need Spellcraft AND use magic item AND knowledge arcana?
or Swim? or profession and perform for that matter?I do think Fly is a great idea though.
You could probably condense them in your game if you like. However, UMD is mostly for rogues and bards who have no spellcasting ability and thus need a way to use the item in question. So that in my opinion could not be gotten rid of. They've already gotten rid of concentration (good!) and rolled it into spellcraft so that makes it even more important. Could that be further rolled into knowledge arcana? I'm not sure. I would lean towards NO.
To each their own of course, but separating the two of them seems to make sense. As spellcraft refers to ones spellcasting ability, and the ability to recognize spells from others, diagnose magical auras. Knowledge arcana refers to the more intellectual side of magic. Knowing facts and trivia about magical beasts and lore.
In a sense Spellcraft is the intuitive, streetwise of magery while knowledge arcana is the booksmarts of magic.
Hopefully that made sense, i haven't been to bed yet.
As far as fly goes, i think that could be put in with acrobatics myself as its too specific. I would only consider flight a separate skill possibility if the character themselves were of a flying race or through some other means got wings.
wrecan |
Other skills I think should be condensed.
Diplomacy should be folded into Perform (oratory) (or vice versa). Heck, I think Diplomacy should be replaced by Perform altogether and (oratory) is simply the most common means of changing one's attitude.
Disguise should be folded into Deception.
Escape Artist should be a trained-only aspect of Acrobatics.
Fly should be folded into Acrobatics.
Knowledge (arcana) should be folded into Spellcraft (or vice versa).
Knowledge (nature) should be folded into Survival.
Bevan |
Though I can see the justification for folding Diplomacy into Perform (oratory), I think it's an important enough skill that it should stay on its own.
Also, I think that Climb should be a Dex skill. Otherwise you end up having giants, red dragons, etc. who are far greater climbers than they should be, and monkeys, cats, etc. who have to have the Climb rules bent for them because otherwise their climb skills could be horribly low. Frankly, I don't think any skill works as a Strength skill.
One problem I had with 3rd Edition was that every character ended up with a ridiculous amount of languages. Making Speak Language part of the Linguistics skill helps this somewhat, but I still think characters pick up languages too quickly. I'd change it so that you gain a new language with every rank of Linguistics (so someone with three levels in the skill would know three additional languages).
Oh, and Knowledge (nature) should be used to identify dragons and magical beasts instead of Knowledge (arcana) since in a normal fantasy setting, they are part of the natural world. If that makes Knowledge (nature) a little too top-heavy with creature types, then Knowledge (local) works pretty well for identifying monstrous humanoids as well as normal humanoids.
wrecan |
I think one of the problems with 3rd edition is that Diplomacy is too prominent. If you drop it in favor of Perform, it accentuates that it's not a charm spell. It changes someone's attitude to you, not their obedience.
By making it Perform it becomes easier to understand why the guard you've changed from Indifferent to Helpful still won't let you in to see the King. He may think you "sound purty" but no silver tongue is going to make him do something to get himself sent on the unemployment line (or the executioner's block).
I like your tweaks to Knowledges though. Makes sense.
Also, I wouldn't mind if we made "Goad" a skill rather than a feat.
Diplomacy/Oratory makes people happy
Goad makes people angry.
Intimidate makes people fearful
It makes a nice trinity of Charisma based skills.
Terry Dyer |
...Diplomacy should be folded into Perform (oratory) (or vice versa)...
Knowledge (arcana) should be folded into Spellcraft (or vice versa).
Knowledge (nature) should be folded into Survival.
I don't really agree with any of these but I do think they should give a bonus to the skill check.
...Disguise should be folded into Deception...
Although on this I think you have the right idea.
grrtigger |
You could probably condense them in your game if you like. However, UMD is mostly for rogues and bards who have no spellcasting ability and thus need a way to use the item in question. So that in my opinion could not be gotten rid of. They've already gotten rid of concentration (good!) and rolled it into spellcraft so that makes it even more important. Could that be further rolled into knowledge arcana? I'm not sure. I would lean towards NO.
What about making it part of Deception? UMD explicitly states you make the check to "emulate" a required ability or feature, which sounds to me like the same thing as "fooling" the item into thinking you're qualified to use it.
wrecan |
Perform should be a pure entertainment skill. Any other use of it I think should fall into another category.
But doesn't "entertainment" change a person's attitude? Isn't that the whole point of entertainment?
Particularly if the entertainment is in the form of "oratory". I mean the whole point of being an orator is to convince people to believe what it is you're telling them.
Baquies |
I will just toss my 2 cents in on skills.
Keep skill points
Below are the tweaks I have made since the announcement of 4e in my 3.x campaign. Note, I have included some 3.0 skills just for the heck of it and some of the ideas in the Alpha. My thought process not every skill needs to be a 1 to 1 folding, certain aspects of a skill can get folded into two places.
Its not perfect, but it may spark discussion.
Acrobatics Dex Balance, Tumble Fly
Athletics Str Climb, Jump, Swim
Concentration Con Concentration, Scry, certain types of Con checks
(Delay Poisons, endurance checks, etc)
Craft Int Craft, Appraise(for the appropriate material)
Deception Cha Disguise, Use Magic Device, Innuendo, Bluff (for
lying
Deftness Dex Sleight of Hand , Escape Artist, Use Rope
Disable Device Dex Disable Device, Open Lock
Heal Wis Heal
Influence Cha Intimidate, Diplomacy, Bluff (feinting in combat
Insight Wis Sense Motive, Gather Info, Diplomacy (sometimes)
Know (Magic) Int Know (Arcana), Spellcraft, Scry
Know (Nature)* Int Handle Animal, Ride
Know (Religion) Int Know (Religion), Know (Planes)
Know (Sciences) Int Math, Engineering, Astronomy.
Know (Local) Int Local, Nobility, Laws
Know (History) Int History, Geography
Profession** (varies)
Perception Wis Listen, Search, Spot, Read Lips
Stealth Dex Hide, Move Silently
* Or keep the old Knowledge skills and keep Handle Animal and have it include Ride.
**Profession (varies) Would include Perform which would be Cha based. Other examples Profession (Scribe) could include Forgery would be Int based. Profession (Merchant) could be either Cha, Int or Wis based depending on use.
wrecan |
**Profession (varies) Would include Perform which would be Cha based. Other examples Profession (Scribe) could include Forgery would be Int based. Profession (Merchant) could be either Cha, Int or Wis based depending on use.
I like this, though I think we should just rename the money-making skills based on the skill used to make money. I don't think merchants should use Int. I like them using Wisdom for management, or Charisma for sales (oratory).
Profession (Wis) (anything that requires savvy -- merchants use this)Labor (Con) (all jobs involving physical labor)
Knowledge (Int) (let these skills allow people to work as sages)
Craft (Dex) (all jobs involving manual dexterity)
Perform (Cha) (all jobs involving interpersonal skills)