I think SR is an unnecessary component of D&D and could be very easily removed or replaced. Here's why, and how...
1) Most creatures with SR shouldn't have it -- it's not really part of their schtick. It's just there to toughen them up. I say -- if you want tougher opponents, give them better stats; and if they are particularly resistant or immune to some things, give them appropriate immunities/resistances instead of blanket SR.
2) The remaining creatures should either simply be magic immune (a rare minority in my opinion), or should be noticibly harder to effect with magic. To accomplish this, give a small bonus to saves vs. magical effects (+2 to +4), and maybe grant them a kind of "magic evasion" -- full effect on a failed save, no effect on a successful save. [I personally don't even think this last bit is necessary, but it at least mimics the standard SR rules a bit more closely.]
This way you remove the need for a redundant roll (the SR check in addition to a saving throw) but you get a similar result.
This is an interesting thought. As-is the SR rules provide a blanket X% chance of spell failure regardless of attack rolls and saves, but on top of these existing mechanics, they don't do a lot.
I've crunched a few numbers with regard to our friend the red dragon in an attempt to discover how much SR really does. My conclusion was that SR renders the dragon's defenses 2-4% more effective at blocking at least some spell damage.
Red Dragon math behind the spoiler:
Red Dragon Defenses
(vs a wizard of level equal to CR with Int 15 + level bonuses, and a 50% chance of having spell penetration, casting spells from his highest three available levels)
Young Adult
CR: 13
Ave Save: +13
Expected Save DC: 18
Chance of save success: 80%
SR: 19
Chance of SR blocking spell: 20%
Success: Blocked 20%; Successful save 64%; Failed save 16%
Adult
CR: 15
Ave Save: +16
Expected Save DC: 19
Chance of save success: 90%
SR: 21
Chance of SR blocking spell: 25%
Success: Blocked 25%; Successful save 68%; Failed save 7%
Mature Adult
CR: 18
Ave Save: +17
Expected Save DC: 20
Chance of save success: 90%
SR: 23
Chance of SR blocking spell: 20%
Success: Blocked 20%; Successful save 72%; Failed save 8%
Old
CR: 20
Ave Save: +20
Expected Save DC: 22
Chance of save success: 95%
SR: 24
Chance of SR blocking spell: 15%
Success: Blocked 15%; Successful save 81%; Failed save 4%
However, SR also reduces the chance of residual damage on a successful save, and affects targeted spells, which don't even get a save, but also don't have residual damage. Then there is magic missile, which has no save or associated attack roll.
An SR solution should, in my mind solve all of these problems. "Spell Evasion" seems like a good idea, but I think it would have the effect of making SR significantly more powerful. Under the current system, a red dragon's SR will not activate, but it will pass its saving throw (and take partial damage for attack spells) 60-80% of the time. As spell "spell evasion" would get rid of these "partial" effects, it would reduce the average damage of a spell like fireball from 40-50% -> 10-20%.
Hence my proposal would be to take "spell evasion", narrow its effectiveness such that there is still a chance for residual damage, and add mechanics to take into account targeted spells and magic missile:
Spell Resistance 4 (Ex)
This creature is immune to magic missiles. It gains a +4 inherent bonus to its AC when targeted by spells or spell-like abilities. When saving against a spell or spell-like ability, a natural roll of 17-20 means that the creature suffers no effects, even if such a result would normally result in either a failed save or a successful save with some residual effects.
I totally agree with #1. Not sure about #2.
An option to doing away with SR completely would be to give casters more than d20 plus level. There's all kinds of ways to increase an attack roll to hit a high AC. There should be ways to improve a SR check (spell penetrate is weak). Adding the primary stat modifier would be one way; after all, melee and ranger attacks get stat bonuses for STR and DEX. Another would to add BAB; for casters this usually isn't much, but it gives the caster something to do with his BAB other than ranged touch attacks.
-Repairman Jack
Well, from an ideal standpoint, I think you are right. Other games (including nameless d20 derivatives...) roll saves and resistance into the same roll.
That said I HATE immunities and disagree with the notion of using them as a replacement. (I have a homebrew template I use to power down golems because I hate it so much.)
Finally, whilst I may agree this is something that could clean up play a bit, I think it runs afoul the goal of backwards compatibility too much.
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 4
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In my campaign SR is the only thing that keeps my BBEG's alive and fighting against a 6-7 PC party. I understand that it's an issue in parties with less actions per round but it's a needed staple of the game for me. I'm going to state that if you want to be able to use a singular foe, and you have a large party, you NEED to make use of tactics that will cause some of those attacks to miss.
My thoughts:
- The spell "Assay Spell Resistance" from the spell compendium is a godsend. It's a swift action, consumes a resource (4th level spell), affects a single target, and can be dispelled (important). It grants a +10 bonus to overcome SR.
- The "fortify spell" metamagic feat (I think this is correct), you memorize a spell in a higher spell slot. Each spell slot above normal adds +2 to the caster level to overcome SR.
- plenty of ways to boost caster level. domain powers, prestige class levels, ioun stones, beads of karma, magic items I'm forgetting...
- and here's an option I'm making up on the spot: Offer an ability (feat, class ability, whatever) that allows a spellcaster to spend time drawing power into the spell to grant it a [+1 per 3 caster levels] bonus to overcome SR. standard-action spell becomes a full-round, or something like that.
- I think the Spell Resistance spell (cleric 5) needs to be capped at CL20 (SR32) or at SR30 (18th level caster)
These are observations made after spending a couple years DMing a high level group of 6-7 PC's.
-eric
I somehow got the impression, that SR is somewhat redundant. Dwarves have a +2 racial bonus on all saves against magical effects. As SR also scales up with level, it's essentially the same, only that it is inversed who rolls the die.
The only difference is, that a caster level check depends on the casters level, and the save DC is based on the spell level and ability score modifier. It's not completely the same, but basicaly, it does the same.
Wouldn't mind getting rid of SR and instead granting save bonuses, with some sort of magic evasion.
A magic "AC" you have to overcome before the guy has to make his save seems more effort than it's worth.
Instead, give them a bonus to saves, and "magic evasion": If the critter succeeds at a save by 5 or more, the spell doesn't affect him at all.
Wouldn't mind getting rid of SR and instead granting save bonuses, with some sort of magic evasion.
A magic "AC" you have to overcome before the guy has to make his save seems more effort than it's worth.
Instead, give them a bonus to saves, and "magic evasion": If the critter succeeds at a save by 5 or more, the spell doesn't affect him at all.
Getting rid of SR would cause an compatibility issue (I´m proposing using CI as a shorthand - the term will come up often). It seems easy to just grant a save bonus instead, but this ignores spells that don´t offer a save. Perhaps granting a save bonus equal to SR divided by a fixed number (say four or five) and granting a regular save for spells that normally don´t have one, like magic missile. This is no easy solution, either.
I often forget applying SR for my NPCs and monsters, so I would be interested in a different mechanic.
Stefan