Disable Device vs. Theft for Open Lock


Skills & Feats


Going through the skills section, I couldn't help but feel tripped up by the idea of Open Lock being rolled into Theft. Being a mechanical process that allows you to essentially "break" the device, it would make more sense to roll it into Disable Device.


Amaril wrote:
Going through the skills section, I couldn't help but feel tripped up by the idea of Open Lock being rolled into Theft. Being a mechanical process that allows you to essentially "break" the device, it would make more sense to roll it into Disable Device.

I agree. This would also make it possible to have an NPC expert locksmith who is not by definition skilled in Theft.


Playing devil's advocate for a moment, I can understand the decision to lump open lock in with Theft, after all what sort of thief is not going to be able to get into the establishment s/he intends to steal from.

Conversely open lock seems to be something that is more mechanically minded and thus fits more closely with disable device.

I wonder whether in situations like this open lock should fit into both categories, perhaps with a higher DC for theft as this is a more general skill.

Cheers
Chris

Paizo Employee Director of Game Development

I can see one reason Open Lock is with Theft. It's Dex based. Disable device is Int based.


Daigle wrote:
I can see one reason Open Lock is with Theft. It's Dex based. Disable device is Int based.

And search is Int based but it was rolled into perception with Wis based skills.

Scarab Sages

Chris Seal wrote:
I wonder whether in situations like this open lock should fit into both categories, perhaps with a higher DC for theft as this is a more general skill.

Or make it part of Disable Device, but either allow ranks in Theft when opening locks or have Theft give a synergy bonus to DD checks to open locks.

Dark Archive

I don't agree with the 2 being grouped either.
But I also don't agree with open lock and Disable Device being grouped, because DD also applies to disarming magical traps.
I prefer them separately. As they are.


I think if Disable Device and Open Locks get folded together, it would almost be too powerful (or too useful).

I do think it makes though. And while I do think Dexterity is probably useful for picking locks, the real trick is know how to do it (Int), especially more complicated locks


Jeremy Reaban wrote:

I think if Disable Device and Open Locks get folded together, it would almost be too powerful (or too useful).

I do think it makes though. And while I do think Dexterity is probably useful for picking locks, the real trick is know how to do it (Int), especially more complicated locks

Absolutely. Essentially, you're reverse engineering it and using your knowledge of how locks work. Pin tumblers are a @#$%&!

RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32

Ross Byers wrote:

I agree with the OP: Open Lock has much more in common with trapsmithing than picking pockets.

Perhaps combine Open Lock, Disable Device, and Craft(Traps and Locks) into one skill?

Actually, I like that. Picking a lock is a Craft(Locksmithing) check.


Jeremy Reaban wrote:

I think if Disable Device and Open Locks get folded together, it would almost be too powerful (or too useful).

I do think it makes though. And while I do think Dexterity is probably useful for picking locks, the real trick is know how to do it (Int), especially more complicated locks

For my part, I completely agree with this. Open Locks would seem to be much more suited to be part of Disable Device just from what it does. It may have been a Dex-based skill, but it has as much or more to do with knowledge than dexterity. It could also be argued that disabling traps requires an equal amount of manual dexterity in cases that should make it a Dex-based skill, but it remains primarily Int related and it would just make more sense to me for Open Locks to be treated the same. I say move it into Disable Device.


Some sort of "Craft (Locksmith/Trapsmith)" would make sense encompassing both Open Lock and Disable Device. Sleight of Hand could be combined with Search into a "Theft" skill, leaving ONLY Listen and Spot as "Perception" (the latter would then balance back out with "Stealth," instead of also providing an additional function that makes it, mechanically, a "must-have" skill to max out for everyone).

Anyhow, that's how I'd do it: strive for a skill balance.

Craft (trapsmith) vs. Disable Device, and Craft (locksmith) vs. Open Lock then becomes a much simpler:

Craft (Locksmith/Trapsmith) <--> Craft (Locksmith/Trapsmith).

The old Listen vs. Move Silently and Hide vs. Spot becomes:

Perception <--> Stealth.

Search is good for secret doors and all kinds of other things in addition to finding traps; it should certainly not be lumped into "Perception," IMHO. Sleight of Hand was always sort of lame, though, so folding it into Search into a joint "Theft" skill works out well.


If you're going to roll opening locks into another skill, it should be Disable Device. Roll picking pockets into Stealth.

-The Gneech


I don't like the combination of skills under the umbrella of the Theft Skill.

First: It is dex based. Dex has nothing to do with recognizing the identifying marks of a thieve's guild. It would probably be better to add Thieve's Cant (or other name) back into the Rogue Class, much like Druidic is connected to the Druid Class.

Second: The sleight of hand type skill, including picking pockets,is not really related to the ability to pick a lock. True one person may pick a lock by feel and that is definitely Dex related but it is just not the same.

As to disable device being the logical alternative to theft for picking locks. I can see that but I have seen people open locks by "feel". I could see one character with craft(locksmithing) opening a lock by knowledge of how it works and another opening it by fine manipulation and "feel".

I am all for rolling like skills into one but I don't think these skills qualify.


Amaril wrote:
]Absolutely. Essentially, you're reverse engineering it and using your knowledge of how locks work. Pin tumblers are a @#$%&!

I see your 'knowledge of how locks work' as your ranks. Using dex makes more sense to me as the knowledge is already covered.

I think disable device and open locks should be one skill- I already do this in my house rules (though I allow int or dex to be used due to tradition)

Liberty's Edge

Amaril wrote:
Absolutely. Essentially, you're reverse engineering it and using your knowledge of how locks work. Pin tumblers are a @#$%&!

Seconded, on both of those.

Opening a lock, you're effectively disabling it as a device by preventing it from doing what it was meant to do. I could see applying a Dex bonus or penalty to represent either steady hands or twitchy fingers, but that might be overly complicating it again.

It also makes sense from the perspective of all those trapped locks on chests and doors; the trapsmith would be building the trap and lock together, in most cases.


Perhaps we should consider it as two completely different ways to deal with a lock:

Disable Device breaks or otherwise mechanically defeats the lock, which is perhaps noisy and noticeable.

Theft is the art of picking a lock quietly without leaving any evidence.

I agree that INT works for Disable Device, because smarter characters will better understand the mechanics; however, to me that's not a good reason to remove it from Theft. They're both "trained-only" skills, so the know-how is built into both.

As Chris Seal suggested above, maybe the answer is to enable the "Open Lock" ability for both skills, perhaps with varying effects regarding noise and evidence. (Also interesting to note is that Theft now comes with an armor check penalty, where Disable Device doesn't).

This way, you can design a "dungeon-delver" rogue who can open locks and deal with traps, but isn't really a thief. OR you can design a classic "urban thief" who pickpockets and opens locks, but doesn't often deal with complex traps. A well-rounded rogue could take both skills and perhaps benefit from both INT and DEX bonuses.


Brainstorm: better yet, what if Disable Device lowers the DC of a lock, while Theft lets you open it? That's a clean way of letting a rogue benefit from both INT and DEX.

Scarab Sages

Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Charter Superscriber

OK, there are some good points opposing the combination of skills, some of which I agree. But as far as the game goes, here is one reason I kind of like it.

I recently started a new game with 5th level characters. I'm playing a dwarven rogue. The DM is using the skill system from Star Wars SAGA, I think, which is similar to this one. I have a +3 int mod which gives me 11 skills as trained. In 3.5 the Rogue has 29 class skills. Being this is a trip to the Underdark, we were told to make our characters prepared for this. I had to sacrifice some skills just to get the necessecities (open lock, search, disable device, spot, listen, etc). If you wanted a new trained skill, you had to use a feat.
So that 11 skills out of 29

In the Pathfinder RPG, the Rogue skill list is reduced to 21 and that includes two knowledge skills compared to one in 3.5. I would start out with 11 trained at 1st, and gain 1 more skill at 2nd and 4th, giving me a total of 13 trained skills out of 21 at 5th level. A little better game-wise, IMO.

Using skill points as in 3.5, it works out the same assuming you use all of your points to max out your skills. 11 skills maxed out.

Just a thought. Different way of looking at it.


Amaril wrote:
Going through the skills section, I couldn't help but feel tripped up by the idea of Open Lock being rolled into Theft. Being a mechanical process that allows you to essentially "break" the device, it would make more sense to roll it into Disable Device.

I'll second this. Open Locks and Disable Device are, in essence, the same thing, so they should be rolled in together. If you're a thief and you want to train on how to bust open a lock, you'll surely learn how to deal with the traps a lock might contain.


I would group Locks and Traps together.

Pick pocket isn't really worthy of a skill of its own; make it a part of Deceit.

Scarab Sages

Amaril wrote:
Going through the skills section, I couldn't help but feel tripped up by the idea of Open Lock being rolled into Theft. Being a mechanical process that allows you to essentially "break" the device, it would make more sense to roll it into Disable Device.

I completely agree. If you are going to combine the skills, I think these two are the best to combine.

RPG Superstar 2009 Top 16, 2012 Top 32

John Robey wrote:

If you're going to roll opening locks into another skill, it should be Disable Device. Roll picking pockets into Stealth.

-The Gneech

Agreed, 100%.

And roll the "identify marks" function of Theft into Knowledge (local).

RPG Superstar 2011 Top 16

I agree if there's going to be some meshing, I beleive Disable Device and Open Lock should be meshed together.

I also like the idea of changing Theft to meshing Sleight of Hand and Search.


John Robey wrote:

If you're going to roll opening locks into another skill, it should be Disable Device. Roll picking pockets into Stealth.

-The Gneech

Agreed, 100%.

Yup. Hadn't given it much thought, but Picking Pockets is more a function of being quiet and sneaky than anything else.

Epic Meepo wrote:


And roll the "identify marks" function of Theft into Knowledge (local).

Actually, that'd probably be more a function of Perception: you're looking them over, picking out little details like clothing, walk, mannerisms, and (especially) how those differ from what's someone in those circumstances should look and behave like.

RPG Superstar 2009 Top 16, 2012 Top 32

Carlson wrote:
Epic Meepo wrote:


And roll the "identify marks" function of Theft into Knowledge (local).
Actually, that'd probably be more a function of Perception: you're looking them over, picking out little details like clothing, walk, mannerisms, and (especially) how those differ from what's someone in those circumstances should look and behave like.

Yeah, that makes sense. When I suggested Knowledge (local), I was picturing the identification of calling cards and graffiti used by local thieves guilds instead of identifying the actual thieves themselves. But Perception sounds about right for picking actual thieves out of a crowd.


Open Locks should be included in Disable Device.

Keep Sleight of Hand in Theft. Stealth will be powerful enough without including picking pockets as well.


Pop'N'Fresh wrote:
Stealth will be powerful enough without including picking pockets as well.

Agreed. No point in creating skills that all characters HAVE to have, just because they're inherently 3x better than any other skills.


John Robey wrote:
If you're going to roll opening locks into another skill, it should be Disable Device. Roll picking pockets into Stealth.

I agree. A lock is just a device and picking it is just a way of disabling its function, so it just fits. Isn't that the way it's done in D20 Modern right now? I also like the idea of rolling Sleight of Hand into Stealth. Sleight of Hand is opposed by Spot and Stealth by Perception, so it seems a natural home for the skill. If you're worried that this will make Stealth too powerful or just don't like the idea of Rangers being able to pick pockets as well as the Rogue, then maybe Sleight of Hand can be turned into a Rogue Talent. Call it "Legerdemain" or just "Sleight of Hand." Any Rogue who picks up the talent gains the ability to use their Stealth skill to pick pockets, palm objects, and hide small items on their person. Bards should probably also have a way to pick up this ability.

Anyway, just my 2cp.


I don't like theft wrapping together picking purses and opening locks. While they are both skills that use nimble fingers they are both very different skills. I've seen enough crime movies to see there is dramatic utility in having the skills separate; in hundreds of stories specialists who can open safes or pick locks are important to the story. Picking pockets requires a degree of subterfuge that picking a lock just doesn't require. There are different classes of criminals in the real world that specialize in either skill as well.

Community / Forums / Archive / Pathfinder / Playtests & Prerelease Discussions / Pathfinder Roleplaying Game / Alpha Playtest Feedback / Alpha Release 1 / Skills & Feats / Disable Device vs. Theft for Open Lock All Messageboards
Recent threads in Skills & Feats