"An exciting time.. a great time.."


4th Edition

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I pushed the envelope a little this evening.

An interesting video was posted today, from DnD Experience.

Link here

If you can see, it's the seconf of the two video clips with the young blonde lady, named Dangergirl.

I don't wish to make fun of her, that's crass. However in the second half of her video presentation she speaks of WOTC reaching out to support, hold up, and strengthen third party companies. I believe the word was 'unify.' The subject line of this post is some of her very last words. "An exciting time.. a great time.. to be a gamer"

Well, you'll get the real effect if you watch it yourself. All that aside, she seems very passionate and sincere.

It did make me quite cross however. I'm not sure if my post will be suppressed, but I was exceedingly polite. So I'll cross post it here for posterity.

But really.. you need to watch the video first.

Spoiler:

I have to echo Hammer of Tyr's sentiments in the post above mine.

I don't wish to aspersions on your report Liz, but the reference to WOTC reaching out to third party communities, particularly the emphasis you place on it, comes across as odd.

I accept that Wizard's has to act in their own best business interests, and I don't find fault with them for that. However gaming communities are literally being torn apart and factionalized by the lack of information, lack of support, and the lack of 'reaching out'. Third Party Companies are losing customers because they can't tell them if they're going to support 4th Edition without seeing the GSL (because to do so would be careless and irresponsible when they have the livelihoods of their employees to look after). You need look no further than this board, I can point to specific posts.

Bitter arguments than have been going on for months continue without end, and I see more strive and bickering than I see excitement. Finally today I've seen people making decisions about what edition to support just because they're burnt out and fatigued with the waiting, the not knowing, and the haggling. People just want off the proverbial merry-go-round.

I did read your additional post, and I don't presume to say that Scott Rouse doesn't feel genuinely bad about the delay in the GSL. I accept that he does. However, we're at the point where we need action and not apologetic words, sincerity nothwithstanding. Enough is enough, if Wizard's can invite the general public this opportunity to play with the new system, and then grant you special access- then they can get the GSL out.

I'm absolutely serious too. When industry professionals have to buy tickets with the general public in order to get a glimpse of the game; the GSL has not been any sort of priority.

(Disclaimer: The one 3rd party industry professional who got some press attention, was also there to play and enjoy some vacation time. This I willing concede. That doesn't invalidate my point however. The fact that he phoned back to the office frequently by his own admission says "business trip" )

You seem like a genuine and sincere person, and I do regret if I've spoken harshly. It's not meant as a personal attack towards you. Nor do I begreudge you having a good time at the event. However, I would like Wizards to see this thread, and understand that the customers of third party companies are becoming frustrated. The 3rd parties themselves have no position or voice with which to chastise WOTC, or take them to task about the GSL- but their customers most certainly do.

The willingness to try 4th Edition comes hand in hand with 3rd Party Support, and that starts with the GSL.

We'll see if I get banned.

Grand Lodge

Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

It was the best of times, it was the worst of times...

-Skeld


it may get edited that happens alot over there there was an anti-4e thread closed today on the grounds enuff whineing already plenty of other threads to post in. u may geta repley ive been at ennworld sence it was eric noahs page even if i didnt post sad to see it become so pro4e u cant ask something with real meaning. hope u do get a repley


Watcher wrote:

I pushed the envelope a little this evening.

An interesting video was posted today, from DnD Experience.

Link here

If you can see, it's the seconf of the two video clips with the young blonde lady, named Dangergirl.

I don't wish to make fun of her, that's crass. However in the second half of her video presentation she speaks of WOTC reaching out to support, hold up, and strengthen third party companies. I believe the word was 'unify.' The subject line of this post is some of her very last words. "An exciting time.. a great time.. to be a gamer"

Well, you'll get the real effect if you watch it yourself. All that aside, she seems very passionate and sincere.

It did make me quite cross however. I'm not sure if my post will be suppressed, but I was exceedingly polite. So I'll cross post it here for posterity.

But really.. you need to watch the video first.

Watcher, you are truly, truly a professional individual. I feel your pain... its things like this, no matter how hard you try to keep the nice, professional angle that individuals must and should keep, you just want to scream "Oh for goodness sakes this is getting a little bit STUPID!!!!"

Okay, there, I said it for you. :)

Okay, mine...
For one, Radio Gamer Zero is the WotC version of Pravda, second, this whole "want to start a site dealing with the aspects of gamer culture" that WotC seems to be looking at now is justifying that... oh, we want to define the culture of gamers... on our site, at our terms... we say what's "cool", and at a price tag to boot. (Anarchy For Sale! T-shirts Only $10, Badges only $3.50!.... aka Dead Kennedys response to the materialistic clique ruinification of their own punk scene)
Its a shame that the girl with the blue hair looks almost identical to my oldest step daughter, otherwise the whole concept of this webcast nauseates me altogether. Perhaps it nauseates me more that she looks like my oldest stepdaughter because that's sort of an insult I guess.

Yes, its out... Hallucitor hates Radio Gamer Zero, Hallucitor hates 4th edition, and Hallucitor just might be an individual who normally keeps a low profile because he sorta writes for one of the various 3rd party companies out there... but would rather not say who for respect out of their interests. I'm sorry, as a professional I should play a calm "devil's advocate" but as a consumer gamer I say this whole charade sucks, is stupid, and I don't care because in the end its my consumer dollar and the cosumer dollars of everyone else that truly matters in this game....

Liberty's Edge

Very diplomatic post Watcher ... but I think you get your point (and probably the feelings of a number of us here) across. Well done.


You won't get banned, Watcher, not for that. Usually it takes insults, colorful language, or blanket generalizations. Good post, by the way.

Owner - Dragon Snack Games

I think she realized that she stepped in it right after she said it...

She was stumbling around looking for a way to extricate herself.


Watcher wrote:
I pushed the envelope a little this evening.

You didn't push nothing.

I was going to push... But decided not to, because it might reflect poorly on you. :-/

Why is it, that people can make sweeping generalizations complaining about people making sweeping generalizations - and not have their heads explode?

*Takes a deep breath*

Anyway, as for the video... I will follow your lead and not make fun of her at all (although it is very tempting), but she didn't come off as very convincing. They should have gotten that Massawyrm/Ari guy to do it. At least I would be certain he was convinced of what he was saying.


Well said Watcher. Thanks for posting how I feel in words more diplomatic than my own. I hope it is taken seriously by those in WotC that have the abiltiy to affect change.


You know, I've been afraid to go back and look to see what kind of fire I've drawn. :D

I'm a coward. :D Now I got that whole Billy Joel, "Big Shot" thing happening..

Spoiler:

And when you wake up in the morning
With your head on fire
And your eyes too bloody to see
Go on and cry in your coffee
But dont come b+$$+in to me

Because you had to be a big shot, didnt you
You had to open up your mouth
You had to be a big shot, didnt you
All your friends were so knocked out
You had to have the last word, last night
You know what everythings about
You had to have a white hot spotlight
You had to be a big shot last night

(And I didn't get to bed at 1 am and woke back up at 6 for work! lol!)

As for her personally.. Me being 40 with an 18 year old daughter.. I think I understand.

I just get the sense that she personally is sincere. You have to realize that she's at a major event, representing a popular website as a would-be reporter. She's meeting 'named' developers who are courting her interest and support in their product. She's attending special 'press only' activites and getting better than average access to everyone involved. And no doubt they're being very friendly, and enthusiastic with her, and they're putting their best product presentations forward.

*I* would be excited and impressed if I was in her position. For all any of us know, we could be 4th Edition converts if we had the same experience (unless we're insiders or work in the industry). She probably had a lot of fun, and did feel pretty honored and special. She's not a bad person for that.

But that's how the world of sales and marketing works.

I guess I was trying to underscore that after the party is over, there is a serious side to this. It's not all rainbows and butterflies, because there are people out there who don't want to purchase Paizo's products until they know what's going to happen (and those people are on both sides of the Edition debate). Sales affect wages, benefits, future product development, company growth. Serious stuff.

If you're going to be a reporter, that's the kind of objectivity you need.

MNBC's Chris Matthews wrote:
Let's play Hardball!


Watcher wrote:
You know, I've been afraid to go back and look to see what kind of fire I've drawn. :D

This post is the closest you drew to fire.

I was tempted to post asking that poster if he has ever tried making a product in 4th Edition... But my blood pressure went out of control later in the thread...


Yeah, you're not going to draw heat for that post, Watcher. It was relevant and important to the subject at hand. It was a good post.

Scarab Sages

I like how posters supporting Watcher's criticism about the GSL snafu have to do verbal gymnastics to swear on their mother's grave that "i'm not one of those insane anti-4ed bozos. Please don't ban me, after I say that the guy who posted above might have a point"

At this point I see no real difference between the WotC boards and Enworld. You get mobbed by fanboi conformity police as soon as you express a dissenting opinion at either site.

Anyway, Watcher nice job. I'm surprised that you didn't mention the rumors of the "may no longer publish under the OGL once you publish under the GSL" clause. THAT would have really created a firestorm. I fervently hope that it is just a rumor....

Jon Brazer Enterprises

Watcher wrote:
We'll see if I get banned.

If Razz hasn't been banned yet, you certainly won't be for this. You speak the truth, sir. Words are meaningless if they don't have actions to back them up. They may say they're trying to unify the gaming community, but they're not doing jack to prove it.


:) Round Two


Watcher, I just wanted to say how great it is that you are trying to keep the SGL issue front and center. It's sad that most likely the people who are holding it up are far removed from who actually is hearing the questions, but I really hope it is getting passed along. Seeing all the gaming companies other than WotC dangling like this is painful, and the longer the SGL is held back from them, or if the terms are such that decent companies like Paizo can't in good conscience participate in any way, the more I may have to rethink gaming with the new edition.

Anyway, keep up the good fight. I hope you are helping save Hasbro from itself. Cheers.

Liberty's Edge

I considered adding my piece, but Watcher said it well ... and if I had to read another post on "those girls are hot" or "are they single" I think I would shoot myself. Have some self respect people! Yes, they're women, they're attractive, get over it.


it didnt take long for a basher to show up it seems.well I may be being unfair to him we shall see.


I just... can't... fathom... the people who wonder "what's the big deal about the GSL? Its just a legal document. Why do any publishers need to see that to make a decision?"

Times like this make me wish Darwinism was legal. You know, for the good of the species. Really.


lol Right on man I didnt get that guy . why the hell would you ever sign anything you havent even seen lol. I bet sales men just love that guy.


Thanks for the rep over on EN World's boards Watcher. I've been perusing the threads over there, but as of yet, haven't posted. (There's just not much I can add right now...).

Scarab Sages

Watcher wrote:
You know, I've been afraid to go back and look to see what kind of fire I've drawn. :D
Disenchanter wrote:

This post is the closest you drew to fire.

I was tempted to post asking that poster if he has ever tried making a product in 4th Edition... But my blood pressure went out of control later in the thread...

For the benefit of those at work, etc, who can't see the thread...

RigaMortus on ENWorld wrote:
Ever try to make a third party "D&D" game when TSR was running things? How about a 3rd party RIFTS game? Ever post fan created material for RIFTS on a website, not even for profit, but for fun? If you have, then I am sure you are familiar with a "cease and desist" letter.

Now lets look at WotC, d20 and 3E... How many publishers were basically CREATED because of them? How many 3rd party publishers create games/systems/adventures/monster manuals/feat books/spell books/etc. FOR D&D. Let's see, there is Mongoose Publishing, Green Ronin, Fantasy Flight, Malhavok, just to name a few. How many when TSR was in charge? Can you even name one?

He does actually make a fair point.
In earlier days, publishers did make D&D-compatible products, but they had to skirt around the issue, marking them as compatible with 'level-systems', 'advanced level-games' and 'percentile systems' (RuneQuest? Rolemaster? who knows).
Other companies did mention D&D specifically, and may have paid for a licence (Judges Guild, Mayfair Games, RoleAids), but it was a hard job to sort through many of the euphemistically-titled products for something you could use in your game.

Maybe gamers today have been too used to a good thing, with the OGL, and now they see it being made more restrictive, they cry foul.
I don't know; I can't seem to get as angry about it as some folks, since I've lived through more restrictive times.

I don't like the fact that the GSL is late, I do believe that it hurts sales for 3rd parties, and I don't think it's wise to abandon 3.5 and jump onto 4E, given the rumoured reduced flexibility.

WotC has no legal, moral or ethical responsibility to make things easy for 3rd parties, despite what some of the more hysterical posters claim.
However, if they choose to make life difficult, then they should be honest about it, and stop pretending that they 'reaching out'.
That will anger and annoy a lot of gamers, who, at the end of the day, can show their disapproval by voting with their wallet.


seekerofshadowlight wrote:
it didnt take long for a basher to show up it seems.well I may be being unfair to him we shall see.

Oh.. they weren't so bad. I've had worse here at home. :)


Disenchanter wrote:

I just... can't... fathom... the people who wonder "what's the big deal about the GSL? Its just a legal document. Why do any publishers need to see that to make a decision?"

Times like this make me wish Darwinism was legal. You know, for the good of the species. Really.

We just have to smile and educate that's all.

This time I kindly outlined some ramifications.


Snorter wrote:


He does actually make a fair point.
In earlier days, publishers did make D&D-compatible products, but they had to skirt around the issue, marking them as compatible with 'level-systems', 'advanced level-games' and 'percentile systems' (RuneQuest? Rolemaster? who knows).
Other companies did mention D&D specifically, and may have paid for a licence (Judges Guild, Mayfair Games, RoleAids), but it was a hard job to sort through many of the euphemistically-titled products for something you could use in your game.

Maybe gamers today have been too used to a good thing, with the OGL, and now they see it being made more restrictive, they cry foul.
I don't know; I can't seem to get as angry about it as some folks, since I've lived through more restrictive times.

I see his point, but I think its acendotal to a large degree. Yes, the good old days weren't always great. Nevertheless, just because things were bad once doesn't change our current situation. Or as a rude teen would say, 'Yeah? And what's your point?'- though please note that I didn't say that.

You can't lose your temper with these guys. It's their turf, and it's too easy to get written off as a crank or nutjob.

The same poster challenges, "What if WOTC withheld the IP / Mechanics?"

Well, 3rd Parties would have a course of action then. I maintain it's this nebulous limbo that really sucks.


You ever notice how many "priorities" a company like WotC has?
DDI is a "priority".
The GSL is a "priority".
Quality playtesting is a "priority".
Finishing the game itself is a "priority".
Flooding the internet with gushy reviews seems to be a "priority".


You know what? I'll finish the GSL for WotC, okay?

"I (undersigned) hereby agree to publish only what WotC wants me to publish and will remit any editions, volumes, books, and/or articles they tell me to, when they tell me to. I understand if I start to hurt their sales with my product I will be kicked off the 4th edition bandwagon never to be heard from again. I also submit to their prior approval so my stuff won't out-cool theirs."

There. Now pay me $1,000. Fire your lawyers. And send a six-pack to my new corner office.
:P


CharlieRock wrote:

You ever notice how many "priorities" a company like WotC has?

DDI is a "priority".
The GSL is a "priority".
Quality playtesting is a "priority".
Finishing the game itself is a "priority".
Flooding the internet with gushy reviews seems to be a "priority".

I don't want to discourage you from having some fun Charlie, but let's not hate on her too much. :D

I really don't discount them when they say that the GSL is not entirely in their hands, and that someone at Hasbro or elsewhere might be the reason it's not been distributed.

But here's the deal.. there should have been some communication internally at their end in order to determine when a working copy of the GSL would be ready. Then and only then should they have placed that Conference Call (back in the first week of January). Once the conference call took place they started to set up an expectation, not only in the Third Party Companies themselves, but their fans and customers.

That's not evil or malice, but it is unfortunate.


Watcher wrote:
CharlieRock wrote:

You ever notice how many "priorities" a company like WotC has?

DDI is a "priority".
The GSL is a "priority".
Quality playtesting is a "priority".
Finishing the game itself is a "priority".
Flooding the internet with gushy reviews seems to be a "priority".

I don't want to discourage you from having some fun Charlie, but let's not hate on her too much. :D

I really don't discount them when they say that the GSL is not entirely in their hands, and that someone at Hasbro or elsewhere might be the reason it's not been distributed.

But here's the deal.. there should have been some communication internally at their end in order to determine when a working copy of the GSL would be ready. Then and only then should they have placed that Conference Call (back in the first week of January). Once the conference call took place they started to set up an expectation, not only in the Third Party Companies themselves, but their fans and customers.

That's not evil or malice, but it is unfortunate.

Like I also wrote on the ENWorld thread, I'm amazed at why the legalities of the GSL wasn't worked out long ago by the legal department.

If it's not a question of deciding which part is open and which part isn't (which would require input from the game designers I'd wager, and they say that it's not because of them it's delayed), then it speaks horribly of the organizational skills of WotC/Hasbro.
I might even go so far as to say that they're worse than their PR skills concerning the new edition (scary thought, I know).


Watcher wrote:
I really don't discount them when they say that the GSL is not entirely in their hands

I fixed that. I already wrote the GSL. I'm still waiting for a payment for it, too. And you know how WotC likes to drag their feet on things.

Might take awhile.

In the meantime I already finished their 5th edition GSL/OGL/OMG or whatever it's going to be.

"I ,the undersigned third party publisher, did not learn well enough last time so now I'm going to just hand all my operating capitol to WotC and hope they like me enough to let me chew their pizza crusts."


Watcher wrote:

We just have to smile and educate that's all.

This time I kindly outlined some ramifications.

I'm all for educating. I just have a hard time doing it when the "student" doesn't grasp the basics. In this case I flounder when people can't grasp the concept of needing to understand the provisions of a license that your business is based on.

Also, I was trying to avoid examples in this case. Since the GSL isn't finalized yet, I didn't want to bring up the "accept GSL, forgo OGL" clause thought just in case it would give WotC an idea they haven't thought of yet. (It isn't likely... But why risk it?)

The Exchange

Damn, couldn't resist replying......
Hope I didn't say anything stupid...first post or visit to that board in several months.

The Exchange

I think that the WOTC designers are being straight forward. I am sure there has been a lot of back and forth especially based on community reaction which probably lead to recent revisions.

Jon Brazer Enterprises

Fake Healer wrote:

Damn, couldn't resist replying......

Hope I didn't say anything stupid...first post or visit to that board in several months.

you din't say anything stupid. it was a quality post.

The Exchange

DMcCoy1693 wrote:
Fake Healer wrote:

Damn, couldn't resist replying......

Hope I didn't say anything stupid...first post or visit to that board in several months.
you din't say anything stupid. it was a quality post.

My mental filter deleted every 4th word, which were amazingly all curses, and it seemed to work!;P

Thanks for evaluating for me, sometimes I don't know when I crossed lines.


prashant panavalli wrote:
I think that the WOTC designers are being straight forward. I am sure there has been a lot of back and forth especially based on community reaction which probably lead to recent revisions.

So, disenchanter did give them ideas.


CharlieRock wrote:
prashant panavalli wrote:
I think that the WOTC designers are being straight forward. I am sure there has been a lot of back and forth especially based on community reaction which probably lead to recent revisions.
So, disenchanter did give them ideas.

Not me! It was Watcher! *points to the owl*

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