Not me! It was Watcher! *points to the owl*I think that the WOTC designers are being straight forward. I am sure there has been a lot of back and forth especially based on community reaction which probably lead to recent revisions.So, disenchanter did give them ideas.
Blame it on the owl, eh? "He ate my tootsie rool pop."
I think that the WOTC designers are being straight forward. I am sure there has been a lot of back and forth especially based on community reaction which probably lead to recent revisions.
Prashant,
I think when we're feeling level headed, most of realize that the Development Team are probably not the culprits here.. and all in all I think posts from Paizo community members have not been unfair or trollish.
To what you've said above.. You're not wrong. I think they did go back after the DnD Experience and started tweaking the rules based on feedback (smart thinking too!). But my friend, we're talking GSL, not the rules. Even as the EN World folks point out, most rules adjustments aren't going to impact the GSL itself.
(Side note: The Tome Podcast done by Respectable Hobbit on behalf of the Tome really did make me look at the system more positively, because they touched upon non-combat spells and role-playing opportunities, it's a good listen!)
I hope you guys forgive me for reigning it in a little.. I think our work is done.
Blame it on the owl, eh? "He ate my tootsie rool pop."
3.. 3 licks.
But lads, that's all relative to media you're working with. ;-)
(That's my Dungeongrrl homage for today!)
Mike Lescault and I had a pleasant exchange. I am happy.
Edit: Linkage
Mike Lescault and I had a pleasant exchange. I am happy.
Edit: Linkage
I like how he says that they were asking harder questions then he did at Gamer Radio Zero (maybe, Mike, it's because GR0 is a WotC pet-project?)
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Like ohmygawd I played with Andy Collins and it was so totally tubular dude and then I saw Mike Mearls and I was like ohmygawd you gotta be kiddin me right this is like the guys you know THE guys and ohmygawd I was totally totally into the game because its like new and stuff and everybody here has their own dice and like they all totally want to buy the new edition because its new and like I dont have it and stuff.
'Tubular'?
I know I'm getting on in years, but what is that slang for?
Is it a euphemism?
Is it...dirty.....?
Like ohmygawd I played with Andy Collins and it was so totally tubular dude and then I saw Mike Mearls and I was like ohmygawd you gotta be kiddin me right this is like the guys you know THE guys and ohmygawd I was totally totally into the game because its like new and stuff and everybody here has their own dice and like they all totally want to buy the new edition because its new and like I dont have it and stuff.'Tubular'?
I know I'm getting on in years, but what is that slang for?
Is it a euphemism?
Is it...dirty.....?
Hmm. I'm pretty sure tubular is actually pretty old. I only heard it back when I was a kid in the 80s. It went along with rad (for radical, I guess). Maybe a surfing thing?
Hmm. I'm pretty sure tubular is actually pretty old. I only heard it back when I was a kid in the 80s. It went along with rad (for radical, I guess). Maybe a surfing thing?Like ohmygawd I played with Andy Collins and it was so totally tubular dude and then I saw Mike Mearls and I was like ohmygawd you gotta be kiddin me right this is like the guys you know THE guys and ohmygawd I was totally totally into the game because its like new and stuff and everybody here has their own dice and like they all totally want to buy the new edition because its new and like I dont have it and stuff.'Tubular'?
I know I'm getting on in years, but what is that slang for?
Is it a euphemism?
Is it...dirty.....?
Ohmygawd you don't know what tubular is? Its like only the most awesomest word that can describe things that are tubular.
Totally.
(yeah, it's an 80s thing like gnarly and bogus.)
Hey guys...
:D
Don't mean to spoil the fun, but I would like to steer this thread back towards applying polite pressure on the Powers That Be.
What was a tempest in a teapot evolved into a lively discussion that brought a WOTC Community Liason Mike Lescault (aka Gamer Zero) into direct dialogue.. with the promise that we'll get answers on the GSL.
Having been given a blank check to ask some tough questions, I did so. Hopefully without any nonsense in them that would be an excuse not to answer.
I could still use the public interest though. Every little bit, and every little post helps to keep the Missing GSL a center stage topic..
The discussion starts here, but becomes interesting by Page 3
All I ask is that you be cool and respectful, even if you disagree.
Watcher,
Just wanted to say, well said, and thank you for taking the time to stand up for an important issue(s).
I don't want to discourage you from having some fun Charlie, but let's not hate on her too much. :D
Yeah I wouldn't either as I know Liz. She's very smart, loves gaming, and gets excited about gaming, but she isn't a professional speaker nor is she in the game publishing business so some slack concerning her demeanor isn't a bad idea, IMO. I know that I probably couldn't do any better in the same environment under the same circumstances.
Also, she was an ENnies judge last year and is one this year so she's read hundreds (probably thousands) of pages of gaming material within the last two years so I wouldn't discount her opinions just because her presentation is a bit enthusiastic. :)
joe b.
Watcher,
Just wanted to say, well said, and thank you for taking the time to stand up for an important issue(s).
You're welcome!
But it's not about me.. It's about James, Erik, Mighty Mike McArtor, Jason, James, Wes, and all of our Freelancers..
These guys work their asses off every day to answer our questions.. and make sure the products that they sell are as fun as possible.
The famous conference call took place the first friggan week of January, and an expectation was given. If the GSL wasn't going to be available till Mid March, other plans could have been made.
Whether Paizo adopts 4th Edition or not, the 'not knowing' hurts them and us just as much. It's been hard on our community. Whatever decision is made, someone will be unhappy, but the status quo is the one guaranteed way to make ALL of us unhappy ALL of the time.
Our Editors deserve better than sleepless nights and the promise of 80 work hour weeks. The public has seen the rules. Enough is enough.
And if you haven't checked the thread yet, it just got more interesting since the last time I posted.
Please politely tell them that you care about the GSL.
I don't want to discourage you from having some fun Charlie, but let's not hate on her too much. :D
Yeah I wouldn't either as I know Liz. She's very smart, loves gaming, and gets excited about gaming, but she isn't a professional speaker nor is she in the game publishing business so some slack concerning her demeanor isn't a bad idea, IMO. I know that I probably couldn't do any better in the same environment under the same circumstances.
Also, she was an ENnies judge last year and is one this year so she's read hundreds (probably thousands) of pages of gaming material within the last two years so I wouldn't discount her opinions just because her presentation is a bit enthusiastic. :)
joe b.
Fair enough Joe, fair enough. Joy should never be a crime. I'd just like to point out that as of this morning there was a concerted effort not to make this about her, or to question her integrity.
Fair enough Joe, fair enough. Joy should never be a crime. I'd just like to point out that as of this morning there was a concerted effort not to make this about her, or to question her integrity.
Oh yeah, I don't mean to sound like I thought that's what was going on. It's just I know that I'm a bit peeved right now about the GSL mess and that makes it more likely for me to transfer some of that to other things that aren't really related. I view Liz's clip as someone who's very excited about what's going on but doesn't have the same concerns that I (and I suspect other people posting here) do, and hence the way we view what she said is probably a bit clouded by our concerns about the GSL.
joe b.
Like I also wrote on the ENWorld thread, I'm amazed at why the legalities of the GSL wasn't worked out long ago by the legal department.
If it's not a question of deciding which part is open and which part isn't (which would require input from the game designers I'd wager, and they say that it's not because of them it's delayed), then it speaks horribly of the organizational skills of WotC/Hasbro.
I might even go so far as to say that they're worse than their PR skills concerning the new edition (scary thought, I know).
I suspect in general, the people with Hasbro in Rhode Island feel far, far less concern regarding other game developers than the people at Wizards. It would not surprise me if there were a fair contingent who would love to altogether kill all licensing that doesn't involve an instant payment. So it may be possible that there are a few characters keeping the GSL moving as slowly as possible as a business strategy. I don't doubt the sincerity of the consternation shown by some of the WotC people at this, though.
As for PR, yeah, really bad, and it has cost them a lot of good will. They never, never should have pulled the plug on Dragon and Dungeon. They lost a really valuable asset in Paizo, and might lose even more if they don't get the license out soon, or if it is just too egregious to agree to.
Hiya.
Watched them both. The first girl (the one on the top), seemed a lot more sincere to me. The second girl...not so much. Mainly, I listened and watched their body language and eye movement in conjunction with what they were saying. (here's a link to some interesting info; look at this then go back and watch). I know it's not as accurate as a 1st edition Paladins detect evil, but it's still interesting... ( Lies n' eyes ).
To do my part I am trying to find the nearest WotC/Hasbro lawyer or member of their legal team and I'm going to go to his house with a paper bag filled with poop. I will pain "Give Us the GSL!" on the bag, set it on fire, knock on his door and then run. After he puts the fire out and gets crap on his shoes I'll light the gasoline-drawn "GSL" on his front lawn. I'm still working on it, though, to tone down the subtle*.
*er, this is not a death threat?
We'll see if I get banned.If Razz hasn't been banned yet, you certainly won't be for this. You speak the truth, sir. Words are meaningless if they don't have actions to back them up. They may say they're trying to unify the gaming community, but they're not doing jack to prove it.
I dunno how to comment on that. Heh.
I have proven a point, though. The fact that I can hate 4E and still be considered a forum member here compared to being banned from ENWorld for not being pro 4E and almost from Wizards forums for the same reason just further proves how vicious those other forums are against anti-4E people.
And, quite a number of others here on the forums have had the same experience as well.
It continues! They parry, but to no avail.
I don't want to discourage you from having some fun Charlie, but let's not hate on her too much. :D
Yeah I wouldn't either as I know Liz. She's very smart, loves gaming, and gets excited about gaming, but she isn't a professional speaker nor is she in the game publishing business so some slack concerning her demeanor isn't a bad idea, IMO. I know that I probably couldn't do any better in the same environment under the same circumstances.
Also, she was an ENnies judge last year and is one this year so she's read hundreds (probably thousands) of pages of gaming material within the last two years so I wouldn't discount her opinions just because her presentation is a bit enthusiastic. :)
joe b.
Lighten up!
When presidential candidates make more fun of themselves then gamers do, the fun has left the building.
Unless your one of those "We are serious gamers."-types. And you should warn people if you are.
And I don't care who you are, I wasn't insulting so don't get a hang-up about it.
My relentless search of the truth about the GSL continues!
Upon the recommendation of one EN Moderator (that I would never get much attention posting in the section that I had been in), I created a new thread designed to get the attention of Scott Rouse and Mike Lescault.
And not only that, I ponied up $7 bucks to support EN World for one month for the priveledge of sending Private Messages. I shot one off to Mike Lescault. I kindly ask him to take a look as he promised. He responded like a true professional, and hopes to get abck to me soon.
Meanwhile this second new thread was shoved off by a different EN World moderator because apparantly the topic was too rarified for the general boards. <sigh> No matter. The Powers That Be have acknowledged the questions.
Not only that, our own friendly vistor Clark Peterson has weighed in with thoughts of his own.
I won't be deterred in this quest for the GSL. Please join me, and post your polite thoughts and concerns.
Only we can prevent a nervous breakdown in the Paizo Development Team.
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JOIN THE QUEST, SEARCH FOR ANSWERS
SAVE THE CHEERLEADER, SAVE THE WO....
Sorry, wrong quest. Now where did that Holy Grail get off to...
Update on your continuing Quest, Watcher?
The conversation continues, but I really screwed up today.
I allowed the emotions stirred up by the "Is this how you want Paizo represented" thread get the best of me, and I said something fairly foolish, emotional, and melodramatic.
I was doing well with that thread for awhile, but I crapped in my own thread and then I stepped in it.
I've recovered however. Some people put me in my place and I recognized the validity of what they said. I hope anyway. The only thing one can do in these situations is accept responsibility and move on.
:(
To answer your question though- I haven't seen any answers. Although, lenty of people at that end (EN World) are now hopeful for an answer too.
The conversation continues, but I really screwed up today.
I'm sorry I couldn't post this earlier, but I got your back Watcher - as I am sure you noticed.
We all screw up, like I posted in the thread. You have done wonders for presenting concerns I share in a much better tone than I ever could.
And frankly, you didn't screw up quite as bad as some make it seem. Every one is a little over sensitive lately, and for good reason. Any other time, and your slip up would hardly be noticed.
I didn't think you screwed up either. I actually have a very hard time accepting that people would take someone's expressing their gut feelings as an opportunity to shoot them or their message down with snide comments and sarcasms. That is unfortunately (in my relatively short experience) what often happens on the 4E boards at ENWorld - and most likely everywhere else, including here (though I might not notice it since I'm "on the other side" of the fence here). That's what I tried to explain in my post over there (though I'm not sure it helped).
At some point, I actually wondered if people were not taking the link to the Paizo forums just as a timely excuse to drop off the thread. But it is possible that it is simply a question of sensibilities: I'm European and I know that I sometimes have a very hard time understanding reactions from oversea. :)
Anyway, keep the good work, Watcher!
Only we can prevent a nervous breakdown in the Paizo Development Team.
You have been really cool about everything, Watcher, I wish I could see over there at EN World but for some reason I can't get so much as a byte.
If you would let those of us who don't look know more or less what's happening there that would be cool.
If you would let those of us who don't look know more or less what's happening there that would be cool.
Short answer?
Watcher took an opportunity to pose some very pointed questions about the GSL.
The discussion followed the usual trend, and Watcher was doing good to keep it civil, measured, and on topic. Until, in a moment of desperation I'd say, he pointed out the ever famous Is This Board Really How Paizo Wants To Be Represented thread. With a link and everything. It was meant to show an example of the crap the delay of the GSL is causing... But it wasn't taken that way.
Fortunately, things didn't get out of hand, and I had the opportunity to (surprisingly, successfully) divert everyones attention away from that and back on topic.
A longer answer would require more time... If the short answer isn't sufficient, let me know.
Oh, and the questions asked are:
1. What is the status of the GSL? What is a realistic date that it might be available to 3rd party companies?
2. Will 3rd Party Companies be able to create aspects of the game that are not available at the new Edition's launch? For example, if a setting is ripe with bards, but WOTC plans on releasing their official bard in a future work in 2009, will those companies be able to create their own version? This goes to the question of an existing setting's continuity.
3. Will publishing under the GSL prohibit publication of older material under the OGL?
4. This is a fluff question (so it is the least priority of the three)- but does WOTC realize that the fans and the customers are very much in tune with the process, and have their own vested interests in the GSL. That is, do they understand that this is not something just between Wizard's and the Third Parties, but that the customers are involved too. We're the ones that make decisions on our purchasing habits, not the 3rd parties themselves.
Cool, Thank you!
I'm not going to hold my breath for straight answers, but I really like knowing that the questions have been asked in a calm and reasonable manner.
Good posts, Watcher.
That video pretty much summed up how I feel whoever is actually in charge of decisions at WotC has handled everything. There are mixed messages everywhere, possibly just from crossed wires, but it comes across as total bungling and the grunts (including this lady and the designers) end up looking like jerks/incompetents.
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I like how posters supporting Watcher's criticism about the GSL snafu have to do verbal gymnastics to swear on their mother's grave that "i'm not one of those insane anti-4ed bozos. Please don't ban me, after I say that the guy who posted above might have a point"
At this point I see no real difference between the WotC boards and Enworld. You get mobbed by fanboi conformity police as soon as you express a dissenting opinion at either site.
Anyway, Watcher nice job. I'm surprised that you didn't mention the rumors of the "may no longer publish under the OGL once you publish under the GSL" clause. THAT would have really created a firestorm. I fervently hope that it is just a rumor....
This is a bit off topic, but I just had a post deleted on these boards. I hate to say it, but these boards may be headed down the sippery slope of being as bad as teh WOtC or ENWorld boards. I hope I am wrong.
This is a bit off topic, but I just had a post deleted on these boards.
Please tell me you are making this up.
You are not one of the people that should be censored... There are several others more deserving.
Bah. Never mind. I am no longer certain I will be around to read a reply.
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Yep, it was one the "Give the designers a Woot!" thread. It was there yesterday and gone today. All I did was state the reasons I wasn't going to give them a "Woot!". They were all valid, and I didn't make personal attacks against anyone. I just stated the things they did that have ticked me and a lot of other D&D fans off.
Yep, it was one the "Give the designers a Woot!" thread. It was there yesterday and gone today. All I did was state the reasons I wasn't going to give them a "Woot!". They were all valid, and I didn't make personal attacks against anyone. I just stated the things they did that have ticked me and a lot of other D&D fans off.
Unfortunately this has become a sensitive time for all of us.
I appreciate all the support, and I just to reassure you guys.. I didn't crumble just because I got a lecture. Clark Peterson had a point, if I'm to just get all emotional about it and point fingers, there's nothing really to talk about any more..
You can't debate with someone who is upset (in that case yesterday it was me), because they have a tendency to not to listen. That's what they were trying to tell me. Even the guy who was most sarcastic with me pointed out, 'I was doing great the day before and now I just went off on a melodramatic tangent.' (That was paraphrased, he was a bit harsher than that, but the implied compliment was there)
The questions are too important for me to self-sabotage them. So when presented a helping of humble crow pie, I sat down and ate it. The questions were too important to do otherwise.
I'm sorry to Cory for getting censored. I don't know what to say about that. :(
Well, as it stands, we know Mike Lescault has seen them, and promises to try to get some answers. Now I wait and try to be patient.