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In the "Kobold" thread here on Paizo, I read this:
Once again, the following is from Xath, one of EN World's moderators, and one of EN World's press representatives at D&D Experience:
Liz (Queen Dopplepoppolis) and I had a fantastic interview with Chris Perkins and Sara Girard today at D&D XP. In it, they let a few tantalizing spoilers out about the three core books. I'll start with the Monster Manual, and Liz should have the PHB and DMG up shortly.
[... other text omitted by me...]
But now for the big news! One of the monster appendecies in the Monster Manual will be devoted to adapting monsters to become player races. The MM will include 12-20 monsters that will be pre-written for use by PCs. Chris Perkins was kind enough to let us know nine of those races!
Gnome
Bugbear
Minotaur
Shadar-Kai
Githyanki
Kobold
Warforged
Shifter
Doppleganger/Changeling (They are one and the same in 4e)
The inclusion of "core" Eberron races in the MM? How very interesting. What does this bode for the Eberron game world? I think they may want to put the lumber on their windows and flee from the coast; methinks there is a storm a brewin'.
Why would you think that? My interpretation is that they want those in the core MM because they want Eberron players to be able to update their campaigns to 4e and because some of the races are actually fairly popular (admittedly, based on anecdotal evidence).
I would tend to agree that they want to get Eberron players on board quickly. Any delay runs the risk of Eberron groups not converting. Additionally, dropping the gnome from the PH upset quite a few people and they play an major role in the Eberron setting. The same goes for the half-orc (as a dragonmark race).
Well given that PCs do not use the same rules as monsters, won't this create a bit of a problem when a PC Warforged (converted using the monster conversaion rules) runs into a host of NPC warforged and changlings?
No more so than a PC Human meeting a group of NPC Humans, me thinks.
Well given that PCs do not use the same rules as monsters, won't this create a bit of a problem when a PC Warforged (converted using the monster conversaion rules) runs into a host of NPC warforged and changlings?
It's not that they don't use the same rules, it's that they don't HAVE TO use the same rules. It's up to the DM.
There's nothing saying you can't PC generation rules to create NPCs. Now you just have an option that didn't exist in 3.5.
The Eberron races seem to be pretty popular, and there's nothing stopping you from using "Eberron" races in other settings. I mean, warforged work in any setting that had a big war, and changlings can exist in any campaign that has/had doppelgangers.
I'd heard that Eberron was going to get a lot of support on DDI anyway, so you can expect to find the artificer there, as well as other things.
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No more so than a PC Human meeting a group of NPC Humans, me thinks.
Humans aren't in the current MM but I think I understand your point. However, my (limited) understanding of the 4e MM/PC differences seems to indicate that PCs will have abilities significantly different than "monsters". Even a gnoll PC meeting a gnoll "monster" in 3e would create an equitable or uncertain encounter, since gnoll monsters follow the same rules as gnoll PCs. But now a Warforged PC will meet one of 3 or 4 generic Warforged "types" as written in the MM, wouldn't he?
Doesn't that strike you as a bit odd, that the PCs have widely different abilities because they are PCs, even at the same "level" as a monster? To turn it around, will a 6th level warforged monster have access to feats/abilities unavailable to players because it is a monster? If so, why? If not, what exactly is a 6th level warforged going to be able to do?
I just see a collision coming up here, of the kind that happened when experienced DMs starting allowing MM races as player characters in 2e, before the rules were unified.
Well given that PCs do not use the same rules as monsters, won't this create a bit of a problem when a PC Warforged (converted using the monster conversaion rules) runs into a host of NPC warforged and changlings?It's not that they don't use the same rules, it's that they don't HAVE TO use the same rules. It's up to the DM.
There's nothing saying you can't PC generation rules to create NPCs. Now you just have an option that didn't exist in 3.5.
How would they really know? I mean, a warforged fighter can do things that a warforged warrior cant do, and a warforged warblade can do things that a warforged fighter cant do. It seems meta-gamish to me.
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I just see a collision coming up here, of the kind that happened when experienced DMs starting allowing MM races as player characters in 2e, before the rules were unified.
It is my understanding that there will be rules to use certain MM entries as PCs. Think of it as a rules socket layer so you can play an entry using PC rules.
Humans aren't in the current MM but I think I understand your point. However, my (limited) understanding of the 4e MM/PC differences seems to indicate that PCs will have abilities significantly different than "monsters". Even a gnoll PC meeting a gnoll "monster" in 3e would create an equitable or uncertain encounter, since gnoll monsters follow the same rules as gnoll PCs. But now a Warforged PC will meet one of 3 or 4 generic Warforged "types" as written in the MM, wouldn't he?
Doesn't that strike you as a bit odd, that the PCs have widely different abilities because they are PCs, even at the same "level" as a monster? To turn it around, will a 6th level warforged monster have access to feats/abilities unavailable to players because it is a monster? If so, why? If not, what exactly is a 6th level warforged going to be able to do?
I just see a collision coming up here, of the kind that happened when experienced DMs starting allowing MM races as player characters in 2e, before the rules were unified.
Well, that is a good question, and I believe the only way to answer it is to get a copy of the 4E MM and take a look at the Warforged entry (if you're holding out on me I'll be mad!)
My speculation is that the Warforged "monster" write-up will be akin to the Elf or Halfling write-ups in the current 3E MM, ie, the commoner Warforged (ok, so in 3E I think they're warriors, not commoners, but you get the point). Perhaps they'll have all their feats/abilities sunk into Warforged abilities or some such. Maybe they'll have "advance as character" with some simplified write-ups for easier running? I really don't know here.
One thing to keep in mind, however, is that while monsters in general do not follow the same rules as players, I am almost 100% certain that I read a quote from a designer saying giving monsters PC classes was still possible, just not quite as prevalent (unless the DM wishes to do so!)
So, as always, hoping for the best. Cheers! :)
I'm wondering about 4e Psionics, especially Kalashtar. I'm guessing they're going to be a "core" psionic race; probably alongside gith, duergar, elans and maybe half-giants. I think a Dreamworld is going to be a new plane, and the Quori are going to be a regular feature for psionics. Sort of an astral plane, maybe?
also: would monsters have core abilities they add to their monster levels? like, a gnoll entry and menu of racial feats, after which one levels them up in soldier, skirmisher, etc.? Then each entry for major monster races has a pile of sample gnolls?
I'm wondering about 4e Psionics, especially Kalashtar. I'm guessing they're going to be a "core" psionic race; probably alongside gith, duergar, elans and maybe half-giants. I think a Dreamworld is going to be a new plane, and the Quori are going to be a regular feature for psionics. Sort of an astral plane, maybe?
also: would monsters have core abilities they add to their monster levels? like, a gnoll entry and menu of racial feats, after which one levels them up in soldier, skirmisher, etc.? Then each entry for major monster races has a pile of sample gnolls?
Could be, dusty fires, could be. The sample MM pages that I've seen contained two sample Bodaks and maybe three sample Gnolls (I read the Bodaks semi-thouroughly, but the Gnoll page made my eyes hurt it was so blurry :( )
I'm pretty interested in seeing how the MM is going to be put together because there are MANY different way it could go. The books can't get here soon enough (plus, this semester will be over ... whohoo!)
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Keith Baker's blog addresses this issue.
According to him, you can play warforged, changelings and shifters from the MM as PC races. You won't have quite as many racial abilities to choose from as the PH races, but the Eberron Players Guide should fix that in 2009.
Kalashtar will come out when the psionic rules do.