Changes to the Enemies in EoME [Spoilers]


Savage Tide Adventure Path

Sczarni

ok, this post will refer to at least a few of the main npc's in adventure 11, so if you're not there, you'll spoil your dinner.

My problem is simple. I have a Radiant Servant of Pelor in the party who is the ultimate undead-killer (seriously, no undead pose threats to this party unless they get a surprise round or 1st round kill). He is also fanatically dedicated to Pelor, to the extent that he considers other deities either Demons, lesser Outsiders, or interlopers.

My issue is this: as written, when the party goes to Orcus' realm, they are supposed to be diplomatic and relatively nonviolent until they get to the arena. I don't see that happening, and I also don't want them to be stuck up a creek in Prince of Demons.

So, I was thinking, they could go to another plane and talk to another deity for assistance, while keeping the general feel of the adventure and encounters mostly as written.

One idea I had was to send them to Jotunheim, where they would need to fight either Thor's chosen champion (aspect of thor, perhaps? or a high level dwarven cleric of Thor i have kicking around) to secure the assistance of the valkyries and chosen viking warriors.

Another was the Olman deities, basically travel back in time/alternate reality, to assistance with the deliverance of the Tear of Tlaloc, in the process defeating one of the big-D allies (like that t-rex monster from dragon's demononicom of demogorgon article)

any other tips or suggestions...the party will be meeting w/ Iggwilv and learning from Charon this Sunday, and i have no problem changing the order in which they go to the ally planes....with one of the characters a member of the Church of the Whirling Fury, i figure they're going to want to go to Court of the Stars first anyways.

thanks,

-the hamster


I don't like the Asgardian idea. You've already got CG Powers covered with Gwynharrf.

The Olman deities -- that is a nice idea. Really helps tie the AP's middle act in with the finale.

But even so, don't you think the rest of the group would get a kick out of Orcus? It's Orcus! The prospect of getting involved in an Orcus-Demogorgon throwdown seems simply too cool to pass up.

I get the Cleric's problem -- it's the same one lots of good-with-a-big-G PCs have with STAP in the later adventures. But the making-choices-about-evil is a big part of the game here.

What about just role-playing it out? Maybe the cleric could just sit out the adventure ("Beg to the Demon if you want. But you'll do it without me.") You'd have to come up with something for the player to do, of course, or time it so he's gone that session.

But regardless, I'd probably do the Olman thing. That's pretty nifty.

Sczarni

hmm...ok, thor's out.
that was a kind of first draft, anyways.

olman gods and time travel, that may be where i go.

however, the big problem i see is the cleric picking a fight w/ orcus himself...getting himself and possibly the rest of the party dead-ed quite readily.

and while i don't mind killing them off, i do not want to end the campaign this close to the end

any suggestions on how to make this part palatable to the anti-undead, anti-anything-but-Pelor cleric? keeping in mind he is quite the zealot...

thanks,
-the hamster


psionichamster wrote:


however, the big problem i see is the cleric picking a fight w/ orcus himself...getting himself and possibly the rest of the party dead-ed quite readily.

Hey, they put his stats in there for a reason. :) I think they expected that SOMEBODY would want to take a poke at him.

I'd actually encourage a fight -- I'm a fan of Orcus from 1E and personally didn't care for the fact that Demogorgon beats him in Dungeon 150. But if Orcus was weakened by his earlier fight with the players -- which, fortunately for all concerned, was interrupted by Iggwilv or one of Orcus' lieutenants who stop the fight before the cleric gets plastered -- well, that gives it some more narrative weight.


Psionic Hamster:
If you've played through Shackled City with the same players, then maybe some of their old PCs from that (particularly one who ended up as a new ruler of Occipitus) might be interested in helping out?


I've been thinking a bit about this issue myself, as my group is starting to get close to EomE. I have a demonwrecker in the party, so I'm not sure how eager they will be to ally with another demon lord. However there aren't a lot of other choices. Though, the Olman gods certainly have good cause to hate Demogorgon, so I think that is solid idea.

There are a few ways to rationalize using Orcus. #1 Since his armies are composed largely of undead, literally thousands of undead will be destroyed in the the attack- the servant of Pelor shouldn't have a problem with that. He's essentially finding an easy way to wipe the planes clean of numerous undead. The fight will weaken Orcus as well. If they take Demogorgon down without weakening Orcus it will be too easy for Orcus to swoop in and assume the crown of Prince of Demons at the end, and you cleric certainly wouldn't want Orcus to come out on top. In fact the party might even be able to take a shot a destroying the weakened Orcus after the fight with big D (on the slim chance that they have anything left in them).

The actual negotiations with Orcus won't likely take more than a couple of hours of game time, so that character could easily sit out for that time, while the other players deal with Orcus- the player could even take over running a couple of the badies in the arena fight against the other players.


P.H. Dungeon wrote:
The actual negotiations with Orcus won't likely take more than a couple of hours of game time, so that character could easily sit out for that time, while the other players deal with Orcus- the player could even take over running a couple of the badies in the arena fight against the other players.

Or if you've got a group that's able to handle it, give the Radiant Servant player some notes to work from and have him play Orcus during the negotiations. No need for the player to sit out when his character does.


Sben wrote:
P.H. Dungeon wrote:
The actual negotiations with Orcus won't likely take more than a couple of hours of game time, so that character could easily sit out for that time, while the other players deal with Orcus- the player could even take over running a couple of the badies in the arena fight against the other players.
Or if you've got a group that's able to handle it, give the Radiant Servant player some notes to work from and have him play Orcus during the negotiations. No need for the player to sit out when his character does.

Wow! I like that idea!

I also really like the Olman god idea, Qzauqutal, and bat god once again. You don't really need a time wrap... the gods still exsist.

Personally I'm a big fan of Planescape so I've already starting make short notes on the PC visiting "any" plane for assitence. Mechunas would have to be one of my top choices; The Modorons would jump at a chance to rid the planes of it's demonic host (So long as they aren't fighting along side Orcus...)

Sczarni

well, we had the talk with Iggwilv, and the Radiant Servant, as i expected said "no orcus"

so, the party managed to get the Eladrins in on the fight, and still have to garner Mal, Ob, and possibly Bagro

plus, probably Quetzacoatl and some Couatl friends.

nothing like 1 sun-worshiper asking a previous sun for assistance with his light work, eh?

now, how to work in fighting giants there?....cuz i really wanted to use those death giants and possibly the head.

simple slay the dudes, free the feathered serpents perhaps? fight some giants in the jungle? appease Zotzilaha (not an easy thing, since they ticked him off in the Fangs of Zot, stopping not 1 but 2 deific "volcano goes boom now" with miracles of their own)

perhaps something a little more trap-or-puzzle oriented? although that may not go over too well.

suggestions?

-the hamster


Giants don't HAVE to be of Orcus; you can make them Olman. The Olmans have a kind of death thing going on anyway, being inspired by the Aztecs, so why not have them turn up there?


Let them choose.

Basically, Iggwilv gave them advice on how to gather their alliance, and they're making the choice for roleplaying purposes to disregard that advice. Entirely their choice, and it's their right to make it, but there's a price.

That price is thhat by willingly ignoring Iggwilv's insight and experience, they will have to rely on their own resources. I'd just say, at the end of one session "Ok, you've been to the Court of Stars and Shedilavri, but you need more allies. If not Orcus, then who?" If the players are going to ignore the possibilities Iggwilv places in front of them, then they're going to have make the running themselves - and take on the responsibility if they're not up to the job and their failure ends up resulting in the Savage Tide being released on the world.

There's all sorts of possibilities, if the PCs think laterally. Other demon lords, devils, the Olman gods as you mentioned, other good gods, powerful mortal spellcasters/dragons etc from the Prime Material plane, certain inevitables might be interested if the request can be framed correctly, other outsiders like the genies or reth dekala might be able to be hired with enough cash, and so on and so forth. All have their strengths and disadvantages, but let the PCs decide (just tell them to give you a week's notice about what they're planning so you can prepare for next session!). They're asserting their independence from Iggwilv - let them realise that the flip side of independence is having to be independent. And it's not going to be easy - when Iggwilv sends a letter of introduction along with you, you get listened to, Her prestige and power gets you noticed. When you're doing it by yourself (and whatever the PCs have achieved, it's largely been done in secret and far away in isolated places, so they haven't got all that much in the way of renown or notoriety in keeping with their actual level) you haven't got that advantage. Iggwilv's note gets you a personal audience with Orcus, fairly smoothly. It's going to be much harder to convince Thor or the Grand Caliph of the Djinn or Tiamat or someone to pay serious attention to your proposal when you just rock up on their doorstep out of the blue.

Of course, if it helps, in Prince of Demons you'd reckon Orcus will notice if someone launches a massive invasion of Gaping Maw, even if he wasn't in on the plot from the start. You'd expect him to be opportunistic enough to take advantage of the situation and send in his minions to take advantage of Demogorgon's distraction when the PCs get warmed up after all. There may come a time when the PCs are much more desperate for help, and the potential aid he offers would be much more tempting...


Psionic Hamster:
Did your PCs defeat Lillianth in 'Into the Maw', or make friends (sort of) with her? If they parted on relatively good terms then she could approach the PCs either as an 'unofficial' representative of Grazzt (he doesn't want to be seen siding with others if he's not in charge, but passing some help under the table might not be out of the guestion- especially if Tyralandi in Scuttlecove who also works for Grazzt was on relatively good terms with the players) or simply as an ambitious tanar'ri who has managed to gather a modest sized host of fiends herself and who hopes to increase her fame and help her fight against Athux by playing a part in toppling Demogorgon.

For that matter, irrespective of how the PCs dealt with Lillianth, Tyralandi could be a channel for Grazzt to offer covert assistance to the PCs.

The Exchange

psionichamster wrote:


plus, probably Quetzacoatl and some Couatl friends.

This can also tie in to the couatl that was freed/redeemed in the ToD mini-adventure. Call in that favor in a big way.

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