Magic circle against evil - Breaking the circle against evil summoned creatures


Rules Questions

Scarab Sages

In one of my game the priest cast a magic circle to protect her friends and the were attacked by a Summoned Lion (evil as the caster) One of the protected allies attack with a reach weapon the lion breaking the circle. The lion strike back on the nearest player.

That player argued that the lion cannot because the lion can only attack the one who broke the circle.

The rules said:
MAGIC CIRCLE AGAINST EVIL: All creatures within the area gain the effects of a protection from evil spell, and evil summoned creatures cannot enter the area either.

MAGIC CIRCLE AGAINST EVIL: Area 10-ft.-radius emanation from touched creature

PROTECTION FROM EVIL: Target creature touched
PROTECTION FROM EVIL: This spell wards a creature from attacks by evil creatures, from mental control, and from summoned creatures... The protection against contact by summoned creatures ends if the warded creature makes an attack against or tries to force the barrier against the blocked creature.

AS the magic circle affect an area and not a creature, my point is the rules should be: This spell wards a creature an area from attacks by evil creatures, from mental control, and from summoned creatures.... The protection against contact by summoned creatures ends if the warded creature makes an attack an attack from the inside of the protected circle is made against or tries to force the barrier against the blocked creature.
Thus, if anyone inside the area attack, the protection againt evil summoned creature ends.


Once the circle is broken by anyone, it's kaput.

Scarab Sages

It's what I believed, but they looking for fact... Is there any precision somewhere?

Scarab Sages

Nothing else?


Every player loses the protection from the circle, but just the protection against contact, the spell doesn't end and all other effects still stay.

The protection against summons is broken when a warded creature makes an attack. In the case of a Magic Circle, a warded creature is anyone inside it, so when one of the player attacks from inside the circle, the protection against summons breaks.

In case of other similar spells (communal versions, for example), a GM might rule that only the creature that made the attack has his summon protection broken, but that's another case


Where does it say this?

From the spell:

Quote:
All creatures within the area gain the effects of a protection from evil spell, and evil summoned creatures cannot enter the area either.

Where does it say that when one person breaks their protection from evil effect vs. summoned, it breaks for everyone? Everyone in the circle has their own individual protection from evil effect.


_Ozy_ wrote:

Where does it say this?

From the spell:

Quote:
All creatures within the area gain the effects of a protection from evil spell, and evil summoned creatures cannot enter the area either.
Where does it say that when one person breaks their protection from evil effect vs. summoned, it breaks for everyone? Everyone in the circle has their own individual protection from evil effect.

Because the protection from evil is the effect of the circle, not a buff cast on others in the room, and when the circle is broken, it loses all of it's magical properties.


Again, where does it say that?

Consider the spell Mass Sanctuary:

Quote:
This spell functions as sanctuary, except that it affects multiple creatures. Affected creatures who attack break the spell for all targets.

And notice there is no such language for magic circle.


_Ozy_ wrote:

Where does it say this?

From the spell:

Quote:
All creatures within the area gain the effects of a protection from evil spell, and evil summoned creatures cannot enter the area either.
Where does it say that when one person breaks their protection from evil effect vs. summoned, it breaks for everyone? Everyone in the circle has their own individual protection from evil effect.

From this line here.

If the circle of powdered silver laid down in the process of spellcasting is broken, the effect immediately ends.

There's no text that follows that says "ends for that person". The effect ends period. It's the effect of the circle that gives those outside it the equivalent of protection from evil... with the effect dispelled, all protections and bets are off.

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Starfinder Society Subscriber
Drahliana Moonrunner wrote:
_Ozy_ wrote:

Where does it say this?

From the spell:

Quote:
All creatures within the area gain the effects of a protection from evil spell, and evil summoned creatures cannot enter the area either.
Where does it say that when one person breaks their protection from evil effect vs. summoned, it breaks for everyone? Everyone in the circle has their own individual protection from evil effect.

From this line here.

If the circle of powdered silver laid down in the process of spellcasting is broken, the effect immediately ends.

There's no text that follows that says "ends for that person". The effect ends period. It's the effect of the circle that gives those outside it the equivalent of protection from evil... with the effect dispelled, all protections and bets are off.

That is a line about the alternate function of magic circle against evil for trapping outsiders. Powdered silver doesn't surround your group when you are using it to provide protection from evil to all creatures in an area. That line does not support your argument at all.

I might have agreed with your conclusion, though. The protection from contact benefit of protection from evil is superseded by the effect of magic circle against evil that prevents evil summoned creatures from entering the area of the spell. One creature breaking that ward by attacking an evil summoned creature would break the ward for all creatures in the area against that specific evil summoned creature.


_Ozy_ wrote:

Where does it say this?

From the spell:

Quote:
All creatures within the area gain the effects of a protection from evil spell, and evil summoned creatures cannot enter the area either.
Where does it say that when one person breaks their protection from evil effect vs. summoned, it breaks for everyone? Everyone in the circle has their own individual protection from evil effect.

Circle of Protection is a single effect, while it takes the form of an emanation that can affect several creatures is still a single effect, not several small "bubbles" for all creatures inside; the moment a creature "warded" by the effect violates the rule, the protection against contact breaks for the circle itself.

A Communal version of Protection from Evil, on the other side, could be considered as several separate PfE's at GM's discretion, so if one creature violates the rule the protection against contact might break only for the offending creature.


Drahliana Moonrunner wrote:
_Ozy_ wrote:

Where does it say this?

From the spell:

Quote:
All creatures within the area gain the effects of a protection from evil spell, and evil summoned creatures cannot enter the area either.
Where does it say that when one person breaks their protection from evil effect vs. summoned, it breaks for everyone? Everyone in the circle has their own individual protection from evil effect.
Because the protection from evil is the effect of the circle, not a buff cast on others in the room, and when the circle is broken, it loses all of it's magical properties.

Nowhere in the spell description dose it say the circle gets broken from someone attacking a summoned creature.

Magic Circle wrote:
The creature cannot reach across the magic circle, but its ranged attacks (ranged weapons, spells, magical abilities, and the like) can. The creature can attack any target it can reach with its ranged attacks except for the circle itself.

You could rule that the player that attaced the summoned creature loses the AC and Save bones, but the creature still could not enter the circle.

Magic Circle wrote:
Creatures that leave the area and come back are not protected.

This shows us that not all creatures in a circle are protected after the spell is cast.


Yorien wrote:
_Ozy_ wrote:

Where does it say this?

From the spell:

Quote:
All creatures within the area gain the effects of a protection from evil spell, and evil summoned creatures cannot enter the area either.
Where does it say that when one person breaks their protection from evil effect vs. summoned, it breaks for everyone? Everyone in the circle has their own individual protection from evil effect.

Circle of Protection is a single effect, while it takes the form of an emanation that can affect several creatures is still a single effect, not several small "bubbles" for all creatures inside; the moment a creature "warded" by the effect violates the rule, the protection against contact breaks for the circle itself.

A Communal version of Protection from Evil, on the other side, could be considered as several separate PfE's at GM's discretion, so if one creature violates the rule the protection against contact might break only for the offending creature.

It's an emanation that gives everyone who is affected the effects of a protection from evil spell. There is nothing in magic circle that changes how protection from evil is broken for each individual person. Again, point to the rules that support your case.


_Ozy_ wrote:
... It's an emanation that gives everyone who is affected the effects of a protection from evil spell. There is nothing in magic circle that changes how protection from evil is broken for each individual person. Again, point to the rules that support your case.

Main issue here is the source of the effect, or in this case, the target of the spell.

In PfE, target is Target: creature touched.

In Magic circle, "target" is Area: a 10-ft.-radius emanation from touched creature.

Now, moving to the Magic Circle rules, we get this...

Quote:
All creatures within the area gain the effects of a protection from evil spell..

As you said, MCfE it's an emanation generated from a single source (creature touched). Creatures inside do not gain an independent protection from evil spell each, they gain it's effects as long as they stay within the area of the emanation.

Per third Protection from Evil rule:

Quote:
The protection against contact by summoned creatures ends if the warded creature makes an attack...

The protection against contact ends when the "warded" creature (warded, not target) attacks, but in this case, the "warded" creature can be anyone inside the circle that has not lost it's benefits, so when the/a warded creature attacks, the protection from contact ends. It doesn't say it ends "for that specific creature", it says it ends.

In the case of the circle, the protection from contact is provided by a single source (10-ft emanation from creature touched), and thus, the only thing you can end.


Pathfinder Maps, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Charter Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

Magic circle against alignment is a weird spell anyway, because it is basically two spells in one that don't really have anything in common. One is a mobile aura providing protection against alignment for those within the aura, and the other is an immobile magic circle imprisoning a conjured creature. Even the material component (circle made from powdered silver) only makes sense for the second version, and none whatsoever for the mobile aura version.

In my game I've split the spell in two, I have greater protection from alignment for the mobile aura, and magic circle (independent of alignment) for the imprisoning version.


Yorien wrote:
_Ozy_ wrote:
... It's an emanation that gives everyone who is affected the effects of a protection from evil spell. There is nothing in magic circle that changes how protection from evil is broken for each individual person. Again, point to the rules that support your case.

Main issue here is the source of the effect, or in this case, the target of the spell.

In PfE, target is Target: creature touched.

In Magic circle, "target" is Area: a 10-ft.-radius emanation from touched creature.

Now, moving to the Magic Circle rules, we get this...

Quote:
All creatures within the area gain the effects of a protection from evil spell..

As you said, MCfE it's an emanation generated from a single source (creature touched). Creatures inside do not gain an independent protection from evil spell each, they gain it's effects as long as they stay within the area of the emanation.

Per third Protection from Evil rule:

Quote:
The protection against contact by summoned creatures ends if the warded creature makes an attack...

The protection against contact ends when the "warded" creature (warded, not target) attacks, but in this case, the "warded" creature can be anyone inside the circle that has not lost it's benefits, so when the/a warded creature attacks, the protection from contact ends. It doesn't say it ends "for that specific creature", it says it ends.

In the case of the circle, the protection from contact is provided by a single source (10-ft emanation from creature touched), and thus, the only thing you can end.

You are being inconsistent. If you want to say that it's only the 'effects' of the protection from evil spell, and not the PoE spell itself that is relevant, then you must use this from the Magic Circle spell:

Quote:
Duration 10 min./level

There is nothing in the magic circle spell that indicates that the PoE effect is dispelled for anyone (or everyone) when someone makes an attack. Furthermore, there is a secondary effect of barring an evil summoned creature from entering the 10' radius that is also still ongoing, even if a warded creature makes an attack. From your quote:

Quote:
The protection against contact by summoned creatures ends if the warded creature makes an attack...

Protection against contact is not the same as being barred entry into the 10' radius.


Consider the spell Invisibility 10' Radius. Any inside who attacks becomes visible, unless they are the target. If the target attacks, all become visible.

Could Protection from Evil 10' work the same way?

/cevah


I would say that the provision about a warded creature attacking (taken from protection from evil) applies only to the target of the magic circle spell. The term 'warded' comes from the singular, non-area spell which the magic circle is based on.

Otherwise, an evil character (like the enemy who just summoned a bunch of evil creatures) could just step into radius of the effect. If you consider him the 'warded' creature, he could make a pitiful, ineffective attack back at one of the evil summoned creatures being held at bay around the circle and basically just collapsing the protective effect. Nothing stops an evil character from benefiting from a protection from evil. In fact, they probably use it nearly as often as good characters (alignment restrictions notwithstanding.)

I wouldn't have the protection effect affected by a creature's actions (other than the warded one giving off the emanation.) I don't think that's intended or written (since the wording comes from a different spell, we have to assume the original wording is specific to the spell it's written in, and that we should apply a logical association based on the differences, ie. the magic circle causes a radius, area-of-effect protection around the warded creature, not just strictly regarding the warded creature.


Cevah wrote:

Consider the spell Invisibility 10' Radius. Any inside who attacks becomes visible, unless they are the target. If the target attacks, all become visible.

Could Protection from Evil 10' work the same way?

/cevah

Considering there are no words to that effect in Magic Circle, why would you think so? For example, mass sanctuary specifies that anyone who breaks the spell breaks it for everyone. Communal protection from evil has no such language, therefore it should only break individually. Same for magic circle.

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