James Jacobs Creative Director |
Actually... an article about Iomedae IS on the horizon. Not the immediate horizon, but there's a pretty good chance we'll do some stuff with her in the fourth Pathfinder Adventure Path. And of course, before then, you'll have the Gazetteer and the Hardcover Campaign Setting with more info as well. And maybe some more stuff here and there in between.
Stay tuned!
Watcher |
Actually... an article about Iomedae IS on the horizon. Not the immediate horizon, but there's a pretty good chance we'll do some stuff with her in the fourth Pathfinder Adventure Path. And of course, before then, you'll have the Gazetteer and the Hardcover Campaign Setting with more info as well. And maybe some more stuff here and there in between.
Stay tuned!
YAY!
James Jacobs Creative Director |
Which cleric of serenrae? I just finished book 1. What cleric is that
The pre-generated cleric, Kyra, worships Sarenrae.
Just as in Pathfinder #7 we'll have a pregenerated paladin of Iomedae.
We can't do big articles for all 20 deities all at once. We'll get to them eventually. And our just-announced "Gods and Magic" book will have more info on all 20, as will our hardcover Campaign Setting and the 64-page Gazetteer.
Darkbridger |
We didn't use pre-gens for the APs, but one of my players ended up with a Paladin of Iomedae. I ended up modifying the deity for him though... he really wanted a deity with Protection in it, and he thought Torag sounded too Dwarven. So, I removed Sun (not sure why Iomedae needs both Sun and Glory) and added Protection. The player reasoned that protecting the lower classes was part of the duty of the L/G nobility... which made enough sense to me. <shrug> I'll be glad to see all of the deities get some attention, even if they don't get full write ups right away. It's tough dealing with this type of thing when some of them have nothing more than a single line in a chart.
robin |
About Iomedae and Sarenrae :
I'm a bit surprised by the gazetteer tratment of them in the nations chapter :
The dawncult of Sarenrae MURDERS the satrap of Osirion and seem to be a bit violent in general . Too much time out in the sum maybe? Ok , the satrap might have been a really evil man but still Sarenrae is supposed to be NG and advocates redemption and honesty
Worse yet is Mendev . A supposedly LG theocracy has one of his legates torturing and exterminating people . While I could understand executions after due process , 'Torture' should be illegal in a LG country and 'Death by fire' is also not really a humane way of killing people. And the queen who is also of the Iomedae church lets this be done? Ok , shi is a bit preoccupied by the demons but since this impact her religion and the effectivness of her fight , she shold stamp on this as soon as possible . Where are the justice and honor of Iomedae ?
I'm sorry to be so critical but this sould be addressed as soon as possible. There might be some explanations in the hardcover ( False priests ? ) but as written , it saps my beliefs in the world
Erik Mona Chief Creative Officer, Publisher |
Try to imagine in the real world that "God" is LG. Lots of people who believe in him would agree with that, I think.
Now think of the scumbags and reprobates who served as soldiers in the Crusades.
They probably thought of themselves as "good guys," but they raped their way across Europe and most of them were dastardly mercenaries.
The end. Contradiction explained.
KnightErrantJR |
Try to imagine in the real world that "God" is LG. Lots of people who believe in him would agree with that, I think.
Now think of the scumbags and reprobates who served as soldiers in the Crusades.
They probably thought of themselves as "good guys," but they raped their way across Europe and most of them were dastardly mercenaries.
The end. Contradiction explained.
Perfect Erik. The gap between what people convince themselves they are and what they really are can be pretty great. That's about all that needs to be said about that.
robin |
Try to imagine in the real world that "God" is LG. Lots of people who believe in him would agree with that, I think.
Now think of the scumbags and reprobates who served as soldiers in the Crusades.
They probably thought of themselves as "good guys," but they raped their way across Europe and most of them were dastardly mercenaries.
The end. Contradiction explained.
I did think that was the reasoning but it's wrong.
I won't even begin to discuss if "God" is Good. It has been a point of contention for centuries .Let's just speak of the D&D system .
THe alignment system in D&D is not a relative one . While I myself play some PCs who would be insulted if you would call them Evil , they are technically Evil .
Furthermore , all clerics of Sarenrae are Good are the ones of Iomedae are either LN , LG or LG
Any PCs cleric of mine who would let his followers do the things descibed would at least have to atone fast or he would be a cleric of Iomedae no more. We are playing in a universe in which miracles are daily occurrences. The gods can make plain their displeasure with the actions of their followers just by not giving spells to the clerics involved
So either the so called Iomedean crusade have no clerics to support it or the clerics are not really of Iomedae but of another deity (Abadar could be a good choice since there is certainly LE clerics of Abadar who could commit some atrocities if it furthers the cause of civilization).
James Jacobs Creative Director |
The dawncult of Sarenrae MURDERS the satrap of Osirion and seem to be a bit violent in general . Too much time out in the sum maybe? Ok , the satrap might have been a really evil man but still Sarenrae is supposed to be NG and advocates redemption and honesty
As with all organizations, religions have wide ranges of characters in them. Not everyone who worships Sarenrae, for example, chooses to focus on the peaceful qualities of the goddess. She DOES have a pretty hard-core side, and that side comes out when faced with foes who are beyond redemption. In this case, their church teaches that when combat and battle are the only options, you should strike quickly; don't drag things out. And when you DO strike, try to do so with poise and grace. The Dawncult probably takes the "strike fast" part of the church a bit too seriously, sure but getting rid of the satrap of Osirion was something that needed to be done in their eyes. Most of Sarenrae's clerics and sects aren't this violent. But some are.
Worse yet is Mendev . A supposedly LG theocracy has one of his legates torturing and exterminating people . While I could understand executions after due process , 'Torture' should be illegal in a LG country and 'Death by fire' is also not really a humane way of killing people. And the queen who is also of the Iomedae church lets this be done? Ok , shi is a bit preoccupied by the demons but since this impact her religion and the effectivness of her fight , she shold stamp on this as soon as possible . Where are the justice and honor of Iomedae ?
In this case, you have what's sort of a situation that's getting out of hand. Simply put, the way I see it, there's just not enough actual "for-real" clerics of Iomedae available to keep the crusade on the right track. The crusade has attracted a lot of folk who simply want to pillage and fight, and view being part of Iomedae's crusade as an excuse to do so. The church of Iomedae up in Mendev has its hands full not only with the demons, but in policing its own crusaders. Rest assured, I really doubt that the bad crusaders worship ANYone... they're mostly self-centered and out for themselves. Again... it's a case of not enough actual priests of Iomedae to go around and keep their army in check, here... and you're right about that demon stuff. Demons tend to overwhelm lesser evils. And honestly... if Iomedae's crusaders were all perfect and kindly and nice... that'd break suspension of disbelief even more. Plus, a situation where the crusaders are out of control makes for a much more dynamic place to adventure in than one where things are more black-and-white.
That said... both of these situations are morally questionable/gray areas that we've included in the world to challenge players and to lend a bit more "realisim" to the world. Golarion's not a black-and-white, good guys are allways right kind of world. And the gods themselves aren't the types to get in there and meddle with things; most of them let their worshipers find their own way, and they themselves move in mysterious ways. Who's to say that Iomedae's not letting this crusade turn sour just to test her true flock, for example?
In any case, we've got a 64 page book about the deities coming later this year; we'll have more room in there to talk about some of the more complex parts of their religions there. And eventually we'll get to covering all of them with big juicy articles in Pathfinder.
James Jacobs Creative Director |
We are playing in a universe in which miracles are daily occurrences. The gods can make plain their displeasure with the actions of their followers just by not giving spells to the clerics involved.
This is probably one of the core issues... and something I wanted to re-instate.
The gods of Golarion aren't the type to step in and meddle with mortals. There are heretics in the world, for example; clerics who worship a god in a strange and at times blasphemous ways, yet still function as clerics. They're rare, but they exist. Why do they still gain spells? Again... because the gods move in mysterious ways. They don't always follow mortal logic. Nor do they always react quickly to sudden shifts in the mortal world; it's certainly possible that Iomedae or Sarenrae simply haven't had the chance (or worse, haven't even noticed) how their worshipers are interpreting their teachings at times.
The gods of Golarion, in other words, are not infallible. They make mistakes too; that's what makes them interesting in the same way that the gods of real world mythologys from ancient times are interesting. An infallible god in an RPG is kinda boring.
That said, if you have a PC cleric who worships a good deity and said cleric does lots of evil stuff... you should absolutely have that cleric lose his spellcasting powers. Unless, of course, you like the idea of said PC becoming a heretic. Which is an interesting possibility (and would probably result in other followers of that PC's church becoming his mortal enemies... there's not much more dangerous to a faith than a heretic!).
robin |
Thank for the clarifications , James
I aggree with you that the fact temples can have imposters and heretics is more interesting . This also means that a cleric can err while being of good faith
For Mendev, this is also more clear to me, the church has called for the crusade and doesn't control the situation anymore. I would not describe the country as LG anymore then but I nitpick :)
Thanks again for the prompt reply
Watcher |
The gods of Golarion, in other words, are not infallible. They make mistakes too; that's what makes them interesting in the same way that the gods of real world mythologys from ancient times are interesting. An infallible god in an RPG is kinda boring.
This reminds me of Pharasma's curse upon her rogue priestesses who became the original lamias...
Almost as if it was the result of an investigation, coupled with direct action from the goddess only after a prolonged period of abuse.
Heck, their spells might have been cut off a long time before the curse was instated, and they were still perpetuating fraud in Pharasma's name for some time before the smack down came...
Mikaze |
I'm really looking forward to seeing how the Dawncult's relations with the rest of Sarenrae's clergy works. As in: are they considered dangerous loose cannons, an unfortunate necessity, etc. And what differing views of them are held by what sects of her religion?
That last question reminds me: There will be some info on the various separate sects dedicated to any one god, right? That's the feel I've gotten from a lot of the background material; that the followers of each god are by no means each one monolithic "Church of _______" but often a collection of different people worshipping their gods in different ways.
Like for instance Cayden's worshippers.
The Stumblers of Destiny
The Free Rounders
Order of the Honest Heart - I love you man....
Our Suffering Brothers and Sisters Of The Eternal Morning After - They accept only sawdust as reward for their charitible deeds.
Etc.