Alastar's Narrative Power by Class calculator

[AlastarOG]

Through another thread, we have discussed much on what is power in pf2e, what is relevant, and which class is best at what.

Through that, I've devised a system of weighted ranking that I believe could be helpful to new players that are looking for an answer for the eternal ''which class to play'' question.

This guide has two goals

1 - To accurately represent the ability of each class to affect meaningful change to multiple areas of the narrative at broad, through only their core class kit, discounting archetypes, skill feats, general feats, items and ancestries as non-pertinent to the matter.

2 - In a broader sense, to accurately determine how these classes intermesh with each other in a party, so as to determine where a party, based on only their classes, might be weak or strong, and thus tailor further build options around that, if so desired.

To reach those objectives, I've devised a ranking system that will give a brief ranking to each class on scales described bellow. I will then aggregate those points for each class, but this is in no means a reflection of their power, merely of how varied and versatile a class can be. Every class performs differently based on campaign and classes that are weak in downtime could perform very well in a short timeline campaign, but less well in a multi-years campaign (such as AoA or SoT)

The rating system takes the class as a whole from level 1 to level 20.

The rating system is based on:

15 points for the combat rating:
Damage: 6 points
Survivability: 3 points
Healing: 3 points
Control 3 points

10 Points for the out-of-combat rating system
Exploration: 5 points
Downtime: 5 points

These premises stipulate a ratio of roughly 60% combat to 40% exploration in most campaigns.

These premises stipulate that damage is double the value of any other aspect of combat.

Damage (6 points):

Damage takes into consideration the ability to inflict damage, either to single targets or to multiple targets, in a roughly 50/50 split if pertinent.
Damage shall be rated as follow:
1: Low to non-existent damage
2: Average damage (think basic strike without class features)
3: Slightly above average Damage
4: Clearly above average damage, but conditional
5: Very High above average damage, but conditional, or clearly above average damage
6: Overwhelming damage

Survivability (3 points):

Survivability takes into account saving throws, HP pool and AC
Survivability shall be rated as follow:
0: Below average survivability
1: Average survivability (one save at Master+ only, 8 or 6 hp per level, unarmored or light armor)
2: Above average survivability (two saves at Master, 10+hp per level, access to medium + armor)
3: Great survivability (Anything above 2)

Healing (3 points):

Healing takes into account ease of access to the medicine skill, as well as spells, features and items that come from the class.
Healing shall be rated as follow:
0: No healing ability
1: Some healing ability, or good medicine skill synergy
2: Repeatable, high healing ability or Great medicine skill synergy
3: Repeatable AND high healing ability.

Control(3 points):

Control takes into account the ability to inflict penalties to opposing parties, either to one or to several opponents. ''The basics'' shall be composed of the demoralize action as well as the athletics suite of skill, synergy with these skills through key ability or spellcasting ability shall be considered.
Control shall be rated as follows:
0: No ability to inflict penalties other than the basics, low synergy with the basics.
1: No or little ability to inflict penalties other than the basics, but good synergy with the basics (think basics+ critical specialisation)
2: Good ability to inflict penalties outside of the basics and good synergy with the basics
3: Great ability to inflict penalties outside of the basics as well as ability to inflict multiple penalties with one action/turn efficiently or the ability to inflict the same penalty to multiple opponents reliably.

Exploration(5 points):

Exploration is the ability to enact change on the narrative in roleplay/exploration mode. Key ability synergy with charisma skills, high proficiency in perception, narrative changing abilities, the ability to generate items spontaneously, and the ability to pivot quickly from one configuration to another are rated here. Quickly means a day or under.
Exploration shall be rated as follows:
0: No or little ability or synergy to influence the narrative through class features.
1: Little ability to impose change on the narrative (ex: Master Perception but not much else)
2: Moderate ability to impose change on the narrative (ex: flex abilities, ability to quickly buff skills, access to utility spells)
3: Moderate ability to impose change on the narrative, but with ease of pivot between those abilities, or great ability to change the narrative.
4: Great ability to impose change on the narrative, but with ease of pivot between those abilities, or scenario changing ability to affect the narrative
5: Scenario changing ability to affect the narrative, with great pivot time.

Downtime(5 points):

Downtime is the ability to generate economical gain and growth during allotted downtime days during campaigns, as well as perform special campaign specific actions that have the downtime trait. Takes into consideration class features but also key ability synergy with the 3 main downtime skills (crafting, lore, performance)
Downtime shall be rated as follows:
0: No class ability to downtime, no key ability synergy with a downtime skill.
1: No class ability to downtime, low ability synergy with a downtime skill (Ex: Champion is incentivized for charisma, but not for performance)
2: Class ability to downtime, key ability synergy with a downtime skill, access to features that are best performed in downtime (things that are best done when not adventuring, trapping, reinforcing, locking, moving fast, etc.) ''Must have any of 1''
3: Class ability to downtime, key ability synergy with a downtime skill, EASY access to features that are best performed in downtime (things that are best done when not adventuring, trapping, reinforcing, locking, moving fast, etc.) ''Must have 2''
4: Class ability to downtime, key ability synergy with a downtime skill, EASY access to features that are best performed in downtime (things that are best done when not adventuring, trapping, reinforcing, locking, moving fast, etc.) ''Must have 3''
5: 4, but with extra features like auto scaling skills or special downtime powers.

Classes to be evaluated:

Alchemist
Bard
Cleric (cloistered)
Cleric (Warpriest)
Barbarian
Champion (Good)
Champion (Evil)
Druid
Fighter
Magus
Investigator
Monk
Ranger (Flurry and Precision)
Ranger (Outwit)
Rogue
Witch
Sorcerer
Swashbuckler
Wizard (Spell substitution)
Wizard (Others)
Gunslinger
Inventor
Summoner
Oracle
Thaumaturge
Psychic.

Overall I believe this to be a fairly reasonable rating system, not perfect, but not irrelevant as well.

I will post the rankings on this google doc, so I can keep it up to date as new classes come out

This calculator will enable people to come in and automatically get the stats for their party, to see where their party might be weak

[AlastarOG]

I am still working on the google doc and excel, reason I posted here first is I had the whole forum coding done already and didn't want to lose it.

I'll post again to indicate when I'm done.

[AlastarOG]

Google doc is done, but will probably undergo several changes. I could also do a paragraph to explain the ranking of each class

[VestOfHolding]

Looking forward to seeing how this continues. I like the thought put into this evaluation, even if it won't exactly be the biggest thing I think about for future characters.

[Falco271]

It's a nice overview, but to actually mean anything you should add why you come to these values, and also which variant of the class you're looking at for these values. Not all barbs do the same damage, same as rogues, same with rangers.

Edit: I missed your post where you mentioned to explain the ranking. Would be very useful indeed. I would love to see how a champion would do more damage than a two-weapon flurry ranger.

Edit 2: I agree with what I saw elsewhere about tiers also being defined by level. low level play can be a lot different than high level play, on all fronts.

[AlastarOG]

Falco271 wrote:

It's a nice overview, but to actually mean anything you should add why you come to these values, and also which variant of the class you're looking at for these values. Not all barbs do the same damage, same as rogues, same with rangers.

Edit: I missed your post where you mentioned to explain the ranking. Would be very useful indeed. I would love to see how a champion would do more damage than a two-weapon flurry ranger.

Edit 2: I agree with what I saw elsewhere about tiers also being defined by level. low level play can be a lot different than high level play, on all fronts.

I'll add a paragraph to each class definitely! And the values are up for debate anyhow.

I could also do further sub-divisions, such as healing font cleric vs harming font cleric.

For Good Champion damage vs Flurry Ranger I admit at the time I was thinking of Paladin, which has an easily triggerable actions per round that deal persistent good damage, which in turn triggers weaknesses very often. Levels 14+ it can do that reaction twice a round, on top of its actions, which can be incredibly damaging.

If I take the class as a whole with redeemer and liberator, a 4 would likely be more appropriate.

[HumbleGamer]

Interesting approach.

I had doubts about champions too.

[shroudb]

the main issue i see with your caster evaluation is that you give damage and control as points, but in reality it should be "either" damage or control, since you can't have both simultaneously (limited by slots).

as an example, an occult witch justifies the control 3, but isn't doing any sort of damage 4 rating that is given. While a primal witch can do such damage but is lacking control.

Given this, I think that the function of "damage" and "control" and even "healing" for spellcasting classes, should be rolled into a single function that gives the average overal capabilities of said spellcasting class in those fields.

As an example, an arcane witch that has access to both control and daamge, but has lmited slots compared to a wizard, would be something like a 6 overall combined, and that combination could be either full on damage, or full on control plus some damage, and etc. While an occult witch would be a 5 because the overall damage will always be lower even when going full damage. And etc.

The healing evaluations also dont seem to match the criteria you provided.

As an example, on alchemist healing, it's not a 3 by a long shot. It is repeatable but it isn't high amount, so going by your classification it should be a 2. On the otehr hand, a warpriest is easily a 3 due to having both repeatable and high amount from free Heals AND basically optimally allocating most spells to support, which allows him to have even more Heals available.

Lastly, i think downtime should be a max 3 point like the above (or even 2 point max). Downtime in general doesn't seem to be the main focus of an adventure, it's mostly something just tucked in.

So giving downtime almost the same gravity as damage seems like overkill imo.

[AlastarOG]

I try to evaluate the class as a whole, into what it can potentially provide for your party.

As an exemple: Alchemist has potions which are abundant and heal for quite a lot (not as much as a heal spell though) but also has access to the chirurgeon field, even though not all alchemists will go that route. (2 or 3 in healing was a debate for Alchemist I'll grant, but in the end since I'd put investigator which has 2 paths that grant healing (tincture and forensic, the Alchemist can potentially have both at the same time, hence the 3).

I rated warpriest at 2 in healing because in my understanding most warpriests want to go for cast down+channel smite which means you either go versatile font or harmful font? That might be a mistake though.

For witches and other prepared casters, while in early levels they could struggle at having damage and control, eventually as prepared casters they can do both at whim, changing by what they want to be doing that day, the ability to pivot is key here. Yes some spell lists are better at it than others, but overall each spell list has an abundance of damage and control. The ability of witches to grab any one of those is core to their narrative power.

For downtime... Well it really depends on campaign ? Kingmaker is upcoming (and I'm running my own) and downtime has been quintessential, same thing in SoT where we are crafting our items at massive discounts. AoA has massive parts with downtime activities, specially in chapter 5, and ultimately, if you don't have a caster to teleport you to Absalom, crafting is literally the only way to get upper level items in mass.

Teleport and shadow walk are uncommon spells so if you're in a campaign within a set world with a max settlement level of 7-11, which is very probable, downtime is key to progression as otherwise your martials will be woefully undergeared and underperforming (this is currently happening in our EC siege of the dinosaur game despite us having access to Absalom! We got sieged in while being undergeared and are struggling) so while I agree that downtime takes MUCH less time than combat, it is proportionally just as important to determine how your character impacts the game.

I've had parties that shifted their entire class picks when an inventor got in the party because "f!!& yeah, we got a crafter dude!" And that's part of the perks of the inventor I'd say.

But definitely on downtime YMMV

[AlastarOG]

For explanations, which format is best:

Ex 1:
Alchemist (total points: 15/25):
Reasoning: The alchemist is a poor damage dealer, either through bomber or mutagenist, the damage output is not there and you only scale to expert in attacks. With ultimately medium armor mastery and 2 saves at Master they are tankier than wizards, but still have 8 hp. Alchemists are great healers though, able to create healing potions on the fly, or in advance and distribute them. They have good debuff abilities through bombs and poisons, and great buffing. In exploration, they can whip out skill bonuses on the fly that are non negligible, and in downtime their heavy focus on the crafting skill will serve you well.

Or

Ex 2:
Combat:
Damage: 2 With proficiencies stopping at expert, damage alchemists struggle either through bombs or mutagens. Adding the fact that their key ability is not the main ability needed for their damage styles and that even if they manage an attack that has DC’s (like poisons or mutagenic breath) that DC does not go above Master. Overall, Alchemist are not a damage class.
Survivability: 1 Very late Master proficiency in armor, and 2 saves at Master, but 8hp per level. Better than mage, worst than tanks or semi/tanks.
Healing: 3 3 is for a chirurgeon alchemist, otherwise it’s a 1 or 2. Chirurgeon are first class healers though, and can give out a lot of healing in a turn.
Control: 2 Debilitating bombs, poisons, alchemical items and the such give alchemists a great many ways to debuff opponents.
OOC:
Exploration: 4 Alchemists can buff skills on the go, have the right tool for the job on a whim, recall knowledge like champs, and even be thievery or stealth focused.
Downtime: 3 Being heavily crafting focused helps alchemists perform well during downtime, no unique or auto scaling feature though.

[Falco271]

2 I would say. Include maybe a reference to level. Gets better at higher levels. Or starts strong weakens after x.

[AlastarOG]

Ok I'm going with 2, I'm at Barbarian for now.

[SuperBidi]

I've read your guide as of now. I don't completely agree with the methodology but at the same time I think it's better to try something than not to. I think your second point (judging how a party does in a specific domain) is super interesting. I have a few comments, see it as help and not criticism. That's just my 2 cents.

The aggregated value, the sum of all the values, feels like a "power level". But it's clearly not. I question it. From your methodology, I feel that it doesn't give a meaningful information. Worse, as it feels like a power level it raises questions like "Why the Alchemist is close to the Bard and the Fighter is very low?". I think you should remove it as it's more missleading than useful.

You kept damage at 6 and the other values at 3 when you are actually just comparing classes in different domains. I think you should use the same max value for all domains. I also still think that a number up to 6 doesn't allow you to make a proper comparison.
For example, a max value of 100 would allow you to both order classes and give clear information about how much they compare to the top.
Say, if you give 100 damage to the Fighter, you can give 70 to the non-Paladin Champion, indicating that the Fighter does more damage than the Champion but also indicating that the Champion does roughly 70% of the damage of the Fighter. That's an extremely valuable information.
Sure, it's hard to be accurate, but at least it would give a good estimation of every class ability next to the other on top of the ordering.

For the second point of your document, you lack one information: How much is a party expected to have in each area? For example: a party with 3 healing has low, medium or high healing? Obviously, you need more damage than healing, you need more survivability than control, etc... But nowhere there's a mark to judge a party strength or weakness. You can't answer the question asked by the point 2 without these values to compare to.

Finally, I think you need a lot of knowledge of each and every class to properly write your guide. That's tough.
For example, you give 3 healing to the Chirurgeon Alchemist and 1/2 to the other Research Fields, which gives me the impression that you don't know the Alchemist nor the Chirurgeon well. First, Research Fields are mild specializations. I have a Chirurgeon Alchemist with the damage output of a Bomber Alchemist because the Research Fields give nearly nothing in terms of specialization. So my Chirurgeon took the Bomber's feats and is nearly as valuable as a Bomber than a true Bomber. Also, the Alchemist is not a very good healer. Action economy kills it. It has an amazing sustainability if you prepare tons of Elixirs of Life but a low spike healing output. That can be useful, but it doesn't compete with a Cleric at all.
Knowing all the classes well is super tough (even harder with the newests). I don't know how you can solve this issue.

I also think you should add sustainability to your guide. That's one of the most important values as it impacts all the other values. A low sustainability character in a 12-encounter dungeon will be far lower in all values than the same character in a PFS adventure as it will be forced to rely far more on cantrips and other at will abilities. My PFS Alchemist competes with martials in terms of damage. The same character in Abomination Vault will see its damage output easily reduced by half.

I don't know if it's helpful, I hope it is.

[Here4daFreeSwag]

Good to have some free narrative ranking stuff out there for PF2e, AlastarOG. ;)