Robilar's Gambit allows you to take an AoO for every strike against you. You sacrifice 4 points to their attack and damage rolls. Karmic Strike is almost the same, except it only works against successful strikes against you (and sacrifices only the 4pt penalty to AC).
Taken with Double Hit and Combat Reflexes (which is already a prerequisite for these feats) and a Fighter12 can take on and defeat a CR13 green dragon.
How?
1st round: Fighter hits with +12/+7/+2 base , modified to +18/+13/+8 with weapon focus, +2 longsword, and +3 STR (not too over the top and suggested attack numbers of a NPC Fighter12 on DMG pg. 117). With 2WF and a +2 short sword this turns into +16/+16/+11/+6. Hits a CR13 GrDragon (AC27) 50% twice, 25%, and 5%. We're looking at an average two hits a round with average damage at 19hp. The GrDragon will make five attacks on a full round action granting the fighter five AoOs (which turn into ten attacks at +16 with the Double Hit feat). That's an average five more hits for around another 50hp damage.
69 points of damage isn't the end of this though. Say the weapon was a +2 frost longsword and drinka potion of bull's strength and we're talking an average of 107 points of damage in one round. In two rounds the GrDragon is going to have a whopping 16hp.
In one round the GrDragon can count on an average of 58 or 78 hp damage dealt in return (depending on if Karmic Strike or Robilar's Gambit were used and all five attacks hitting , which at around +25 to-hit they probably are).
Two rounds into a fight and the fighter is -116HP and the dragon is at -214. The dragon is taking twice the damage as the fighter!
We all know you can put on several kinds of shows using similar numbers. But what I'm getting down to is that a fighter came deliriously close to single-handedly taking out a huge dragon last night. Not to mention the player is getting twelve chances to roll a crit hit.
So now, my question; since dragons are not posing much of a threat to my ECL12 team ... what next? Is raising the CR my only option?
Dragon's average damage was figured this ways: Bite 18avg., claws 11avg., and wings 9 avg ea. (+20 if using Robilar's Gambit but unmodified using Karmic Strike).
defensive spells are a DM's best friend. OR have fire shield or somesuch on. The fighter will take damage every time he hits.
Fighter's stats in example need not be any higher then
STR 16
DEX 20
Con 10
INT 13
WIS 6
CHA 6
With the advances made in INT (4th), DEX (8th), and DEX (12th).
defensive spells are a DM's best friend. OR have fire shield or somesuch on. The fighter will take damage every time he hits.
Fireshield is too easily countered. A second level spell almost totally negates its effect.
Well, I can see where your getting at though. Problem is the fighter also has 10 fire resist armor limiting my shield types. So, I'm basically going to have an array of frost shielded monsters (or acid).I'm thinking these feats are going to become disallowed in game.
A bard's inspire courage +2 and defensive casting cure spells means I am almost at a loss with combat challenges. The critical hit probability is very high with this combo (I'm never dropping a keen edge out there for this character to pick up as he is scoring one almost every fight as it is).
Yes, I just gave fire shield as an example. I don't usually have these problems. My players don't pour through the books looking for every last broken thing they can find. I'm sure if Robilar's was used as intended, it's not that bad.
Another option is to give the baddies blink/displacement. I'm sure there are other options. But you just turn it into a arms race and that's no fun for anyone. Maybe talk to the player about toning it down so you don't have to nerf him?
Yes, I just gave fire shield as an example. I don't usually have these problems. My players don't pour through the books looking for every last broken thing they can find. I'm sure if Robilar's was used as intended, it's not that bad.
Another option is to give the baddies blink/displacement. I'm sure there are other options. But you just turn it into a arms race and that's no fun for anyone. Maybe talk to the player about toning it down so you don't have to nerf him?
I am fairly comfy with Robilar's, Karmic Strike, and Double Hit (and Combat Reflexes) taken seperately. It is together that my problems are appearing.
And minions? Heh, with Combat Expertise the penalty to AC is almost negligible and a lower to-hit is still okay to hit ACs of 20 or lower most of the time.I've renamed these feats; Minions Worthlessized. =)
What is Robilard's Gambit? Is it a feat? Special ability? Where does it come from? And most importantly, why allow crazy stuff like this in your game?
Robilar's Gambit is a general/fighter feat from the PH2 (pg.82 IIRC). Why allow this crazy stuff? I dunno ... why is it in there??
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I am fairly comfy with Robilar's, Karmic Strike, and Double Hit (and Combat Reflexes) taken seperately. It is together that my problems are appearing.
Help me out, because I don't have my books with me. How many feats is that, including pre-requisite feats? Is there any BAB pre-requisite for any of them?
I ask because I know what some fighters can do with other feat chains, and I want to know what to compare this to.
But if I were that green dragon, there's no way I'd be throwing another five physical attacks the second round.
Yes, a CR13 green dragon should be smart enough to eat the cleric or wizard and leave the fighter alone to be breathed on from long range.
I am fairly comfy with Robilar's, Karmic Strike, and Double Hit (and Combat Reflexes) taken seperately. It is together that my problems are appearing.Help me out, because I don't have my books with me. How many feats is that, including pre-requisite feats? Is there any BAB pre-requisite for any of them?
I ask because I know what some fighters can do with other feat chains, and I want to know what to compare this to.
But if I were that green dragon, there's no way I'd be throwing another five physical attacks the second round.
Robilar's is actually the only one with a required BAB (12). It also needs Combat Reflexes.
Karmic and Double Hit need only BAB +6, Combat Reflexes, DEX 17, TWF, Combat Expertise (INT13), and Dodge. Four feats, two scores, and a 6th level fighter can have AoO madness. (well, five feats once you add Combat Reflexes).
Well just have the dragon snatch him up and then fly of and finish the fight at grappling range somewhere else. The dragon doesn't even need to hit him. It can just breathe on him while pinning him if it's that much of a problem. Dragons have a higher fly speed than almost anything the group can come up with. I tend to try to use that if the characters seem tough. Normally dragons aren't that stupid after all.
In general I'm thinking you should use more spellcasting and different other ranged attacks. Preferably ones that are touch attack. Heck you can have lvl 1 warrior goblins with acid flasks if you like. Might not be very dangerous but at least they have a chance to hit him and hurt him a little.
If your party is tough as nails in close combat then their enemies will adopt other ranged tactics preferably with some entangling or webs etc to keep them pinned. That is if they know about the PCs. If they are very good at spellcasting then grappling is a good option. If they are good at ranged combat you can have wind walls etc. and charge in to close combat. I generally don't see a problem with challenging your players if you really want to.
Also, the dragon can maneuver (5' step if posisble) out of the shortsword weilding fighters reach before making a full attack or just a big power attack with a tail slap. This green dragon is also a 5th level spellcaster, so could boost his armor class by quite a bit by using some of those.
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But if I were that green dragon, there's no way I'd be throwing another five physical attacks the second round.
Screw the next round, if I were that green dragon, I'd stop after the first or second counter attack. ;-)
I'd also switch to ranged combat - breath weapon + spells. Or grapple. Or change tactics and use a full power attack with my most powerful attack to maximize the damage so that I hurt the fighter more than he can hurt me. Only a mindless opponent or one with no options would continue to throw straight melee attacks at this guy.
(also, the feat combo doesn't strike me as any worse than the improved trip spiked chain build, which can easily own a humanoid opponent with a higher CR).
But if I were that green dragon, there's no way I'd be throwing another five physical attacks the second round.Screw the next round, if I were that green dragon, I'd stop after the first or second counter attack. ;-)
If I were the dragon, I'd switch to ranged combat - breath weapon + spells. Or grapple. Or change tactics and use a full power attack with my most powerful attack to maximize the damage so that I hurt the fighter more than he can hurt me. Only a mindless opponent or one with no options would continue to throw straight melee attacks at this guy.
(also, the feat combo doesn't strike me as any worse than the improved trip spiked chain build, which can easily own a humanoid opponent with a higher CR).
LoL
One thing I sometimes do is throw a player's build right back at them. Trip fighters for trip fighters, bull rushers for bull rushers. Makes things kind of fun.Throwing two of these maniac AOOers at each other sounds ... well, I can go get my old ShadowRun dice cup out again.
Trip fighters specialize against lower STR humanoid types. The Karmic Striker/TWFer specializes against a much broader type of opponent category. Basically anyone and anything who enters melee.
Could you give me the source book on double hit and karmic strike so I can look them up?
You seem to be doing Roblar's Gambit fine. I can see how this is a nasty feat against an unfortunate dragon. Part of your problem, I suspect, comes from an unusually high point buy. The game is generally balanced around roughly a 25 point buy but it seems to me that this fighter has a lot of high stats. To get 5 AoO the fighter must have at least 20 dex and there is a intelligence of at least 13 in their as well so, unless strength and con are pretty base line I have to think that this fighter has a pretty good point buy. You might have had a little less trouble if the fighters hits were not as hard.
Since Dragons are such low level casters their spells are generally best used as buffs prior to combat. I've run a fair number of arena's with them and I get a lot of mileage out of shield and mage armour to boost the AC into the mid thirties. Its almost required considering that we tend to be dealing with pretty high level parties and you only have really low level spells.
I also agree that the dragon probably should not have spent a second round full attacking the fighter but should have tried to target another party member and looked to take the fighter down via its breath weapon or by using a 5' step and gaining reach - presuming that would work in this case - i.e. huge dragon facing an enemy thats not armed with a reach weapon.
I also don't think this alone is cause for major concern. Big monsters with many moderate damage attacks really plays into this fighter but thats not a very common monster design. Dragons are exceptional in this regard. Most big thugs do a few super nasty slams and here Roblars Gambit is good without being overwhelming. It seems probable that you've just come upon one of a handful of creatures that this character is exceptional against - though its a bummer to avoid dragons as adversaries as their just so much fun.
That fighter had pretty good hps, if your giving your players bonus hps (or their just ridiculously lucky) and they have higher then normal point buys you should probably give monsters similar benefits.
I kind of get the impression that the players were really beating up on your monsters so you threw a dragon at them hoping to get a little humility out of them (and a hard fought fight) and they wiped the floor with it. If I'm right (and I've been there myself - I was angry for two days after I lost my first dragon in 3rd edition after having managed to not loose a single dragon through all of 2nd edition) you might have better results if the dragon is played a little less gung ho, give up on the fighter after the first round or tries to 5' step in such a way that it is out of the fighters reach. If the players are getting bonus' you should be giving much the same to the monsters. At a guess your fighter is about 50% up on average hps - imagine if the dragon had 50% more hitpoints? Your players seem to have good stats and giving the dragon, say the elite array, might have gone a long way toward making it a more challenging encounter.
Generally I'd not engage in a spell duel with the party - dragons are crappy spell casters and if the dragon is doing some 1st or 2nd level spell every round while the players are using 5th or 6th level spells (plus melee or range attacks etc.) the dragon will loose. Dragons are ambush predators - their not as powerful as one might think at first brush because their most iconic ability (breath weapon) is often nerfed and usable only a few times in a combat. There are some great feats in the Dracanomicon for dragons. Heightened, Maximized Clinging breath weapon. You should still have some spare feats left over for multi-attack and something else, maybe hover (if the players are very mobile and will probably fly) or improved natural attack.
Tactically when I have fought with them I've found it best if the dragon strikes from ambush, after casting buff spells. On its first round it takes its move action to get into contact with as many PCs as possible and then uses its standard action to breath on as many of the ingrates as possible. Follow up with full attacks - but not on the fighter, unless the fighter is the only PC in full attack range. Better to go for the rogue or cleric as you want to convince your players that they can't stand in range of the dragon without being shredded - the real goal here is to force PCs to use their turn taking actions or casting spells that don't hurt the dragon but instead move them out of range of the dragon - what the dragon can't really handle is 4 or 6 players all wailing on it every round - they kill it in three rounds max if they can do that. Oh and while I'm on one of my favourite topics - make sure the dragon has some way of getting freedom of movement, nothing more annoying then having the party cast solid fog on a dragon and then just slaughter it with energy spells at range while its trying to move out of the solid fog.
Man I love dragons! My favourite monster easy.
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Robilar's is actually the only one with a required BAB (12). It also needs Combat Reflexes.
Karmic and Double Hit need only BAB +6, Combat Reflexes, DEX 17, TWF, Combat Expertise (INT13), and Dodge. Four feats, two scores, and a 6th level fighter can have AoO madness. (well, five feats once you add Combat Reflexes).
So, a 6th-Level fighter would need:
Int 13, Dex 17;Combat Expertise
Combat Reflexes
Dodge
Two-weapon Fighting
Karmic Strike (Complete Warrior, page 102)
Double Hit (I don't own the Miniatures Handbook; do those off-hand weapon AoO's count against the character's Attacks of Opportunity total?)
Everyone attacking her would get a +4 Attack bonus. She'd be able to spend her Attacks of Opportunity to return strikes that hit her, as long as the attacker is in range. (It doesn't give her any extra Attacks of Opportunity past Combat Reflexes.)
(What is the big honkin' green dragon doing with his reach, standing right next to the fighter?)
Honestly, that sounds reasonable, given what else a 17-Dex fighter could be doing with six feats. If the campaign has a point-buy, then her lower Strength is another compensation.
To get Robilar's Gambit, she'll need to be 12th Level. Again, it doesn't give her any extra AoO's, so unless she has a Dex of 18, she won't be able to deliver 5 AoO's against the dragon, and if she does, then all her vounted feats don't do squat against all the other bad guys swarming around her, enjoying their +4 Attack bonus against her.
It's not as broken as it looks.
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Robilar's is actually the only one with a required BAB (12). It also needs Combat Reflexes.
Karmic and Double Hit need only BAB +6, Combat Reflexes, DEX 17, TWF, Combat Expertise (INT13), and Dodge. Four feats, two scores, and a 6th level fighter can have AoO madness. (well, five feats once you add Combat Reflexes).So, a 6th-Level fighter would need:
Int 13, Dex 17;
Combat Expertise
Combat Reflexes
Dodge
Two-weapon Fighting
Karmic Strike (Complete Warrior, page 102)
Double Hit (I don't own the Miniatures Handbook; do those off-hand weapon AoO's count against the character's Attacks of Opportunity total?)
Okay, I realize a dragon won't just stand there and grind off hit points. That was just for an example so we could see how the damage output stacks up (after only two rounds, too.)
If you throw the 6th level fighter above (no, the off-hand attacks are part of one AoO and thus do not count against the total) into the game he is going to fight a lot better (i.e. it gets more broken). Any kind of stock-stat gnoll is looking at getting attacked five times for all of running up there and hitting with their battleaxe.Combat expertise almost makes up for the AC penalty Karmic Strike imposes. And a bard companion could fill in the missing attack modifiers. A cleric even more so (especially daunting is if the cleric buddy casts Enlarge Person). Or worse yet, this combo with a large weapon a la goliath PC race (+1 ECL). Now any medium creature is going to get hit twice at range and twice more for hitting the character (with four more AoO attack rolls waiting in reserve).
Let me just remind us about the chances for a critical here. The sixth level fighter gets almost five tries to roll a 19 or 20 (provided an opponent strike them once). Let them get to 10th level and craft a keen edged longsword and watch what numbers we'll be able to stack up.(eleven attackschances for 17 or higher counting full attack and every AoO available).
Could you give me the source book on double hit and karmic strike so I can look them up?
Double Hit, miniatures handbook. Karmic Strike, complete warrior.
I like dragons, too. The one I used in-game was a young adult red and we only engaged this bladed blender Attack-o-matic guy for one round. (again, I just used the green and two rounds for an example).Get this, in the game the players actually ran away. The team spell caster was a pyromancer and largely ineefective against the red. And the fighter knew he wasn't going to stand much more of this type of punishment (even though the bard was casting defensive with cure spells). So the dragon in-game technically won the fight (but wisely choose to not pursue the party all out as his HP was well below half). Seeing what this combo could actually do in-game was shocking and most other monsters in the dungeon didn't really have a chance, what with getting hit so many times even for reaching out to the character.
The possibilities for brokeness really appear with keen edged and supplemental help from the team. A bard at similar level (with the fighter using expertise) will fill in all the penalised numbers from AC to hit bonus. Add in a Tumble2000 backstabber (rogue with tumble rank 15) and pretty much every melee fight is an exercise in pointless die rolling.
I think this is a broken aspect of AoOs. But, then again, AoOs have been my personal whipping boy for D&D3.5.
Not that it helps much, but Double Hit also requires Improved Two Weapon Fighting.
And the combo is only really effective against the "thug" monsters - those that their shtick is multiple attacks. It isn't as effective against 'The One Big Swing.'
Of course... Adding in Two Weapon Rend won't help the mix much.
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Hi, Charlie. I was thinking about this situation last night.
Including Improved Two-Weapon Use, the situation you want to set up requires seven feats. Now, look at some other combat specialization, such as mounted combat, archery, or improved-crit whirlwind attacking. For seven feats, they're doing much the same kinds of damage in their niche.
And the feat ladder you describe really does build a niche. A 6th-Level fighter only gets seven feats (eight if she's human; I'd recommend Mobility). So she's putting all her fighting skills into this trick.
Which doesn't do much if the opponent only hits once a round.
Which doesn't work at all if the character is flat-footed.
Which doesn't work well if the opponent out-reaches the character.
Which doesn't work at all against archers, or opponents with spring attack, or grapplers, or particularly opponents with improved trip or improved disarm.
Which doesn't do much against opponents with a high armor class, concealment, or especially damage reduction.
Which doesn't get much better as the character rises in level.
Combat expertise almost makes up for the AC penalty Karmic Strike imposes. And a bard companion could fill in the missing attack modifiers. A cleric even more so (especially daunting is if the cleric buddy casts Enlarge Person). Or worse yet, this combo with a large weapon a la goliath PC race (+1 ECL).
Well, yes, a 6th-Level character, backed by a buffing bard and/or cleric, fighting in his niche, can be impressive. (The goliath, of course, loses that eighth feat.) Actually, since Karmic Strike (as opposed to Robilar's Gambit) requires the opponent to successfully score hits against the character, using Combat Expertise to improve your AC is counter-productive.
I'm not saying the character is inneffective. I'm saying that a character who is particularly good against a narrow range of opponents (medium-sized dragons, hydrae, gorrillons, and monks) isn't broken.
I think this is a broken aspect of AoOs. But, then again, AoOs have been my personal whipping boy for D&D3.5.
And there you are. If I were you, and looking for ways to abuse AoO, I'd try to find that ability that gives archers an Attack of Opportunity against everybody who does anything threatening within a 30' radius.
Which doesn't do much if the opponent only hits once a round.
Which doesn't work at all if the character is flat-footed.
Which doesn't work well if the opponent out-reaches the character.
Which doesn't work at all against archers, or opponents with spring attack, or grapplers, or particularly opponents with improved trip or improved disarm.
Which doesn't do much against opponents with a high armor class, concealment, or especially damage reduction.
Which doesn't get much better as the character rises in level.
It works just as well if the opponent only hits once a round. Your still getting an extra two attacks (and two more chances to roll a 19 or 20). Your DPR is still heavily tilted in your favor vs monster DPR.
If your flat-footed it still works because you have combat reflexes.It works only slightly less effective against spring attack (the attack itself is what is provoking an AoO so it is still out-DPRing spring attackers).
Archers? +1 buckler of arrow deflection (yes, I'm cherry-picking equipment. You think players don't?)
Improved trip? Improved Disarm? The Attack-o-matic is actually only one feat away (available to human fighters at 6) from assuming that tactic as well. How about two disarm checks as an AoO from Karmic Strike? And Karmic works off of touch attacks (grapple as well), so it better be successful or it'll hurt you for trying. (this just comes down to luck in the end)
High Armor Class? What does work against that? Better odds of hitting. Weapon Finesse (now +5 to-hit instead of STR's +3). Available at level 8 for the Attack-o-matic.
Damage Reduction? Holy weapon, seriously adds to the DPR for over half the monster manual population.
You gotta think like a munchkin to see what options they have. (or, just be one LoL)
I'm not saying the character is inneffective. I'm saying that a character who is particularly good against a narrow range of opponents (medium-sized dragons, hydrae, gorrillons, and monks) isn't broken.
Your defining as range of opponents is narrower then mine. I see it as effective against virtually anything that engages melee. Reach or not (it's not going to take me long to close the range. And I wouldn't be using a -4 to my AC until I could hit. So reach is only as effective as it is against any melee fighter who has yet to close range).
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Hi, Charlie. A correction: Improved Two Weapon Fighting also requires a BAB of +6, so you won't be able to get that second weapon involved in an AoO till the next feat at 8th Level.
Here's what I mean about an opponent who only gets in one good attack: if that attack is something an 8th-Level character needs to take seriously, it's doing a lot more damage than your fighter's retributive attacks are returning. (Remember, the fighter's off-hand light weapon only gets half Str bonus damage.)
Here's what I mean about archers: all of your feats shut down against an archer from outside your range. (By the way, the buckler of arrow deflection doesn't work if you're using your off-hand weapon. Even if you're using the shield, it has a chance to deflect one attack.)
Here's what I mean about an opponent with damage reduction: If your fighter were doing 30 points of damage in one blow, against a critter with DR 10, twenty points would get through. If it takes you four attacks of 7 or 8 points each, that DR keeps the critter completely safe.
(And you're right: a couple of +1 holy keen weapons will certainly be helpful. You might consider getting them up to +4 holy keen sonic burst; those would work even better.)
To make this fighter's trick effective, you have to the allow him to get hit, often, so you want his AC to be low. (Which is why I'm not too worried about the fighter's lack of shield or lack of heavy armor (to keep the AC Dex bonus). Against critters that you really don't want to hit your character, you're in a quandry.
Really, I don't see this as that much more powerful than any other efficient fighter at 8th Level.
Hi, Charlie. A correction: Improved Two Weapon Fighting also requires a BAB of +6, so you won't be able to get that second weapon involved in an AoO till the next feat at 8th Level.
Hmm, I did not notice that second line of prereqs. Your right.
Well, regardless by level 12 I can have Robilar's Gambit andimproved trip and make up to ten trip attepmts as my AoO. Using light flail as your off-hand weapon (instead of short sword) you can make weapon-trips instead of unaemd-trips. (Now, you won't ever make that many trips no matter what). And you need not be successful in your attack to get tripped by the AoO.Here's what I mean about archers: all of your feats shut down against an archer from outside your range. (By the way, the buckler of arrow deflection doesn't work if you're using your off-hand weapon. Even if you're using the shield, it has a chance to deflect one attack.)
You can use an off-hand with the buckler at -1 to-hit. You don't get your AC bonus from the buckler. So you have to decide it situationally if you want to use the buckler or the off-hand attack. But, really, it's my experience that ranged combat is far less prominent in a campaign then melee.
Here's what I mean about an opponent with damage reduction: If your fighter were doing 30 points of damage in one blow, against a critter with DR 10, twenty points would get through. If it takes you four attacks of 7 or 8 points each, that DR keeps the critter completely safe.
(And you're right: a couple of +1 holy keen weapons will certainly be helpful. You might consider getting them up to +4 holy keen sonic burst; those would work even better.)
What I meant was a keen or holy. Sure you can say that it gets broken with holy keen weapons. But that's like saying the Hackmaster +12 is broken. It is, and that wasn't what I meant. You said what about DR, and I said holy or keen weapons. We're both basically what if'ing it at this point.
To make this fighter's trick effective, you have to the allow him to get hit, often, so you want his AC to be low. (Which is why I'm not too worried about the fighter's lack of shield or lack of heavy armor (to keep the AC Dex bonus). Against critters that you really don't want to hit your character, you're in a quandry.
Edit: Your right. But then why would anyone take Robilar's Gambit (enemies get +4 to-hit AND damage) when Karmic Strike does more (works against touch attacks as well) for less (only a -4 to AC).
If you can imagine a level 12 fighter with the Attack-o-matic build. Making improved trips (and the follow-up attack) as AoOs.
You can possibly make 5 regular full attacks, 5 AoOs (+5 Dex), 5 off-hand AoOs (double-hit) with trip (light flail), 5 follow-up attacks (from improved trip). A possible 20 attacks in one round. (you'd have to stack the events to see this).
I would say hello Dominate Person. I would then unleash them on the party in turn.
Then again I would also laugh at a player that wanted to use a D&D miniatures game feat in a D&D RPG.
I would say hello Dominate Person. I would then unleash them on the party in turn.
Then again I would also laugh at a player that wanted to use a D&D miniatures game feat in a D&D RPG.
Karmic Strike is in the Complete Warrior. And miniatures Handbook has an RPG section, so it's not just for the miniatures game. ;confused;
Karmic Strike is in the Complete Warrior. And miniatures Handbook has an RPG section, so it's not just for the miniatures game. ;confused;I would say hello Dominate Person. I would then unleash them on the party in turn.
Then again I would also laugh at a player that wanted to use a D&D miniatures game feat in a D&D RPG.
Ah, I didn't know that miniatures book had anything that was supposed to be RPG related. (You could always ban it though or just the combination).
I would still tell them "Please change your character's feat options. I know your liking what he can do but it makes it really no fun for me as a DM. If I challenge your character it will:
A) seem as if I'm taking advantage of OOC build info to make enemies that can bypass your strengths
B) kill the rest of the party."
It's a hard conversation to have but I have done it before (with a much relieved change in the game).
An impressive build I must say.
But as broken as it may seem, as a DM I would allow it. My reasons being that when a player optimizes like this, I take it as a sign to do the same right back.
He's using a AoO maniac build? I'll use my archer build than can fire out to a mile and a half without little/no penalty.
Heck, use a couple ghosts/ghouls. That'll shut down most any fighter. Some ability drain/damage or a negative level or two would have a lovely effect on his feat chain.
I'm not saying to completely destroy PCs like this, just don't let them walk all over you as a DM. You don't have to use enemies that they're designed to fight. Mix it up, use something that they can't/can barely fight once in a while...
I had to learn to accept this as my PCs are usually very focused towards a single purpose, like the fighter this thread. (Take the above noted archer for example, my personal favorite...)
And let's not forget that if you cut such a PC off from his group, he's done. I see very little "stamina" in this design. In a single brawl, he's amazing. But after several encounters without getting a band-aid or twelve? Not so hot anymore...
-Kurocyn
Personally I've never allowed karmic strike.
Robilar's Gambit is ok though, by 12th-level, I'm fine with the fighter doing stuff like that. After all, look at what the wizard is doing!
Personally I've never allowed karmic strike.
Robilar's Gambit is ok though, by 12th-level, I'm fine with the fighter doing stuff like that. After all, look at what the wizard is doing!
Good point.
Its a good fighter build no doubt but I'd not get too concerned. Its by no means the only really good fighter build out there. I've seen insane AC builds where the fighters AC is so high that almost every monster needs to roll a natural 20 just to hit.
Another popular build in my game was the Half Giant Psychic Warrior 2/ fighter from then on. This grants two more feats and gives one a few PSPs with which to get expansion. Get a spiked chain and the monkey Grip feat. Spike chain is large in the hands of a half-giant. It becomes huge when the giant expands and, with monkey grip its gargantuan. Now go up the whirlwind feat chain. Every round every enemy with 20' of the half giant takes about 50 points of damage.
I've seen a fighter/scout build that, using leap attack and power attack could charge for 80 points of damage.
My experience has been that the fighter type builds really come into their own between roughly 4th through 9th level. During these levels its possible for fighter style characters to make builds that really wail on the DMs monsters. To a large extent this is because monsters, in this level range, often are little more then a bag of hit points with some attacks and maybe a single schtick that the players soon counter.
After 9th though this really begins to be much less of a problem. Monsters start having many really nasty abilities and they get a lot of hit points. Even if you can hit back thats small consolation when the attack is save or die, or it paralyzes you, or does ability point damage - or it just does roughly 90 hps (180 on a crit).
That said you will probably be forced to adjust (presuming you like hard fights). Here is what has worked for me. I handed out a +1 level adjustment for access to many books. I further handed out a +1 level adjustment for unusually high point buy and hps. At its core this mostly deals with your problem. Your able to use somewhat more powerful monsters and the PCs won't rocket up the levels. You can pretty much forego this if you don't mind the PCs rocketing up levels as the game will pretty much rebalanced at 10th level or so.
These level adjustments will ultimately solve your problems in an AP type situation as well as the PCs will slow down in their level advancement their twinkified builds well be challenged again - in fact they'll be in a bit more danger as these builds can usually dish it out but they can't so easily take the heat. Not a huge problem in my experience - that keeps the mage and cleric players feeling indispensable since its their job to save the fighters ass when he is in over his head.
Finally don't forget that twinky builds work both ways. There are some excellent builds you can make with monsters if your willing to swap out feats.
Robilar's Gambit and Karmic Strike are too good ; a good analogy would be to say that if they were Magic cards, they would completely upset the metagame !!!
Those 2 feats allow you to greatly increase your number of attacks. Then, to keep monsters at the same levels of your PCs, you must considere that critters take those feats, becasure they are must-have feats, like Power Attacks for high strength critters ...
Try having the dragon combine True Strike with Power Attack and Leap Attack. That can increase the dragon's damage potential by +40. And don't forget Shocking Grasp for another +5d6.
And if it's a green dragon, use its breath weapon against the ground. Acid doesn't do 1/2 damage vs. objects, so you could trap the fighter in a pit.
And try using warlock grunts instead of warrior grunts. They don't NEED any good stats, and they're ranged touch attacks.