So, I'm running Savage Tide down here in Argentina, for a bunch of English-Speaking Argentinian gamers that I recruited down here.
They have taken to the part of playing 'morally grey' characters well. Maybe a little too well!
The PCs constantly threaten each other. I had to put the party into initiative 3 times last adventure because fights almost started out.
They finally recovered the loot under Parrot Island after a near TPK. before putting the treasure in the chest prior to dividing it, they bought 5 chains with 5 padlocks and chained up the chest so that no one of them could sneak in and run off with the treasure.
One of them has already secretly asked me by note if he can contact the lotus dragons to sell out the party (only one PC escaped parrot island initially, by swimming. The replacement PCs have only met lavinia once, and she came in disguise at the party's insistence so that whoever was backing Vanthus wouldn't know she had recruited new adventurers). So the Lotus are currently unaware of the party's existence.
Another PC, a beguiler, is constantly disguised; the PCs have never seen his true appearance. He wants to secretly follow the other PCs to find out if any of them are selling out the group. I made him make a prioritized list (you can't follow everyone) and he correctly picked the sellout PC.
So, two questions:
1) the PC who wants to sell out to the lotus dragons (he has that bonus underworld connections feat, by the way). What should the Lotus ask him to do? Lead the party into a trap, I think, right?
2) How do I adjudicate the guy being followed? The beguiler has a +8 disguise skill and the disguise self spell. Plus, the other PCs have never seen his true appearance. Should I give the guy being tailed a roll to detect it? What should the DC be?
Ken
player Vs. Player stuff can be fun, but it's not recommended for long term campaigns. I'd seriously recommend sitting the players down out side of the game sometime and see if you can convince them to work together rather then compete. These adventure paths are pretty dangerous without all the PvP stuff on top of that.
There's nothing wrong with playing PCs that are suspicious of each other, but actively trying to betray or kill your fellow party members is really counterproductive in most D&D games. What's the pay off if the plan to betray his companions to the lotus dragons succeeds? My advice is to nip this in the bud and encourage the PCs to work together (maybe united by the hatred of a particularly loathsome NPC villain).
I have spoilered my response since I refer to in game details.
I've run into this a lot in D&D, and it usually comes from the players feeling like they've got to play to win. Perhaps if the gaming group is new to D&D, they may think D&D is like Monopoly, where it's every man for himself. You might want to compare it to them like football, where it's a team sport, with a lot of blood and armor. I'm guessing this is the case.
If you have some "experienced" gamers, it may be that their gaming experience is centralized around campaigns where that kind of behavior is the norm. Explain to the player(s) that in order to survive the Savage Tide Adventure Path, they will all need to work together.
And whatever happens, don't let the phrase/excuse, "Well, that's what my character would do..." ruin a good time for all. Purely hypothetical, I know, but I've heard it from players/"characters" who don't get the party-style gameplay. If you run across that phrase, politely tell the player to reconsider his character concept so that it works in a party. Hard to do, I know, and I've been on both sides of that fence.
Either way, good luck, and hopefully you will all enjoy this wonderful series of adventures.
I hear you guys, and I too worry that the way they are acting will derail the campaign.
But, I am hesitant to dictate how they should play, given that at least half of the group is engaged in the behaviour. Also, if there's
The PC that wants to betray the party is a replacement character for one of those who was killed under Parrot Isle, by the way. But yeah, I thought his idea about selling out the party was an odd one!
kenmckinney wrote: I hear you guys, and I too worry that the way they are acting will derail the campaign.
But, I am hesitant to dictate how they should play, given that at least half of the group is engaged in the behaviour. Also, if there's
The PC that wants to betray the party is a replacement character for one of those who was killed under Parrot Isle, by the way. But yeah, I thought his idea about selling out the party was an odd one!
The players don't need new characters, just ask the players to refocus, remind them that D&D is designed to be a team game, and the PvP isn't really in their best interest.
If it was up to me, I wouldn't try to motivate them out-of-game, I'd try to motivate them in-game.
I'd let the player contact the Lotus Dragons, then have the Lotus Dragons, with Vanthus taking the principal role, capture them and do something really humiliating. Perhaps, the Lotus Dragons strip them of all their gear and clothing and arrange for them to be sold as slaves to the arena for a bare-knuckle, no spells fight against a bunch of rats.
bmcdaniel wrote: If it was up to me, I wouldn't try to motivate them out-of-game, I'd try to motivate them in-game.
I'd let the player contact the Lotus Dragons, then have the Lotus Dragons, with Vanthus taking the principal role, capture them and do something really humiliating. Perhaps, the Lotus Dragons strip them of all their gear and clothing and arrange for them to be sold as slaves to the arena for a bare-knuckle, no spells fight against a bunch of rats.
I do like the idea of the lotus dragons capturing them and taking their stuff. But I got the idea that kord ran the arena... I am not sure i see it being a place where slaves fight naked against wild beasts.
What if the Crucible area in the lotus dragon hideout was actually used by the lotus dragons to stage fights to the death against wild animals for the benefit of rich spectators ? It would be a good sideline to their animal smuggling operation, and would explain the crucible's layout to a certain extent.
Let's see, after being captured by the lotus, the PCs (including the sellout) wake up naked in 6 inches of water, cold, hearing the laughter of people who can't be seen. Maybe the thieves toss them a few brooms and shovels (peasant weapons) to use against whatever they have to fight. Each of them has an ankle shackled to a 10' chain bolted to a post in the middle of the room, limiting their movement.
First a grate opens in the west wall and 12 giant rats run in, attacking the PCs to the laughter of the hidden spectators. The PCs will dispatch them, I am sure, but will certainly be wounded.
Then a big cage on wheels is wheeled up from the opposite direction, containing two raghodessas. Somehow they escape their cage early and attacks its handlers (4 rogues pulling on ropes), and in the confusion the PCs can get free via escape artist or STR checks while the rogues are fighting the rhagodessas. The weapons of the dead rogues are lying on the ground, but one of the rhagodessas is still alive (but wounded). The PCs have to arm themselves, finish it off, then escape. And at that point I am running the adventure as written. The party will likely press on rather than fleeing because they'll hope to find their gear (with Rowan, of course).
How does that sound?
Ken
I like bmcdanials idea. I can hear Vanthis now:
"Why would I trust the likes of you? A coward who would sell out his own friends, I would have to be a fool"
Then, after the fight with the rats, Lavinia could but them out of slavery. And, to pay her back, they would have to help her with a few things...
It gets the campaign back on track and gives the party a good reason to hate Vanthis.
kenmckinney wrote:
I do like the idea of the lotus dragons capturing them and taking their stuff. But I got the idea that kord ran the arena... I am not sure i see it being a place where slaves fight naked against wild beasts.
What if the Crucible area in the lotus dragon hideout was actually used by the lotus dragons to stage fights to the death against wild animals for the benefit of rich spectators ? It would be a good sideline to their animal smuggling operation, and would explain the crucible's layout to a certain extent.
Let's see, after being captured by the lotus, the PCs (including the sellout) wake up naked in 6 inches of water, cold, hearing the laughter of people who can't be seen. Maybe the thieves toss them a few brooms and shovels (peasant weapons) to use against whatever they have to fight. Each of them has an ankle shackled to a 10' chain bolted to a post in the middle of the room, limiting their movement.
First a grate opens in the west wall and 12 giant rats run in, attacking the PCs to the laughter of the hidden spectators. The PCs will dispatch them, I am sure, but will certainly be wounded.
Then a big cage on wheels is wheeled up from the opposite direction, containing two raghodessas. Somehow they escape their cage early and attacks its handlers (4 rogues pulling on ropes), and in the confusion the PCs can get free via escape artist or STR checks while the rogues are fighting the rhagodessas. The weapons of the dead rogues are lying on the ground, but one of the rhagodessas is still alive (but wounded)....
I would hope that that might dissuade the PCs from trying to ally with the Lotus Dragons; whether or not it would discourage the beguiler from trying to betray the others again (if his fellow PCs do not simply take justice into their own hands either before or during the escape, if they have identified him as a traitor) I am not so sure about. I would think that that level of betrayal- selling his supposed 'comrades' out, even if the deal did go bad on him- would in the absence of exceptional roleplaying result in an abrupt termination of any kind of working relationship, and probably the demise of the character.
The gladiator thing may work, but to encourage the party to play together split the rewards. One pc gets his 12 silver (ie reward role playing, but not as rewarding as it could have been). The rest of the party gets a level (for fighting off rats/rogadessas/crocs) with broom sticks. If they had to level up during the session, it would give the first pc plenty of time to rethink their options. This can backfire though as too much time may break up the game play. In short the rewards for working together should be worth more than the individual rewards.
The R getting loose is a bit of railroad, and it can be quite deadly to a fully armed party, let alone a handful chained up.
As far as A tailing B, have the whole party roll a series of d20s. Do not tell them what it is for, but compare player A's tracking/disguise/bluff to B's hide/spot/sense motive. I have three rolls on hand for each pc for the skill checks I do not want to ask them to make and give.
Curaigh wrote:
The R getting loose is a bit of railroad, and it can be quite deadly to a fully armed party, let alone a handful chained up.
Yeah, it's a railroad, but the idea is that it creates an opportunity for the PCs. The Lotus are going to just keep sending monsters at them until they die, after all. The Rhagodessas getting loose and hunting their captors is the 'fly in the ointment' that allows the PCs to turn the tables.
I'm still hoping that the PC in question decides not to sell out the party, or that the beguiler successfully shadows him and exposes his plot to the others. The gladiator thing is just a contingency plan for what happens if he _does_ succeed.
Ken
The only other thing that I could suggest for you to do is to refocus the point of the game. In the end D&D (or any role playing game for that matter) is not about being the "winner", it is about telling a controlled story with an ambivalent ending. Past that it is about having fun.
After reminding your group about this fact, you need to present this question to them.
"What seems like more fun to you? Do you want a game that is intrigue and backstabbing and doesn't move past the PvP? Do you want a game that is about an epic quest where a party works together for a common goal? Or do you want something a bit in between?"
After they give their answer, decide as a group what kind of game to play and then have everyone work together to make that happen. Because the simple fact is, if you make the game "not fun" by forcing something on them the whole adventure will fall apart and then no one will be playing D&D.
(Oh one more suggestion. You might try partnering up more with the player actively trying to betray the party. Offer him this deal, "I will work with you to make this character's betrayal awesome, but when he dies, you have to agree to make a character that will work with the party." Then use the player as a deputized secret GM of sorts)
Hope this helps
kenmckinney wrote: bmcdaniel wrote: If it was up to me, I wouldn't try to motivate them out-of-game, I'd try to motivate them in-game.
I'd let the player contact the Lotus Dragons, then have the Lotus Dragons, with Vanthus taking the principal role, capture them and do something really humiliating. Perhaps, the Lotus Dragons strip them of all their gear and clothing and arrange for them to be sold as slaves to the arena for a bare-knuckle, no spells fight against a bunch of rats.
I do like the idea of the lotus dragons capturing them and taking their stuff. But I got the idea that kord ran the arena... I am not sure i see it being a place where slaves fight naked against wild beasts.
What if the Crucible area in the lotus dragon hideout was actually used by the lotus dragons to stage fights to the death against wild animals for the benefit of rich spectators ? It would be a good sideline to their animal smuggling operation, and would explain the crucible's layout to a certain extent.
Let's see, after being captured by the lotus, the PCs (including the sellout) wake up naked in 6 inches of water, cold, hearing the laughter of people who can't be seen. Maybe the thieves toss them a few brooms and shovels (peasant weapons) to use against whatever they have to fight. Each of them has an ankle shackled to a 10' chain bolted to a post in the middle of the room, limiting their movement.
First a grate opens in the west wall and 12 giant rats run in, attacking the PCs to the laughter of the hidden spectators. The PCs will dispatch them, I am sure, but will certainly be wounded.
Then a big cage on wheels is wheeled up from the opposite direction, containing two raghodessas. Somehow they escape their cage early and attacks its handlers (4 rogues pulling on ropes), and in the confusion the PCs can get free via escape artist or STR checks while the rogues are fighting the rhagodessas. The weapons of the dead rogues are lying on the ground, but one of the rhagodessas is still alive (but wounded).... I like it, but to get your PCs to really hate the Lotus Dragons, I'd crank up the humiliation another notch. Remember that one of your goals should be to really instill a visceral hatred of the Lotus Dragons. Maybe the Lotus Dragons dress the PCs in pink ribbons. Or give them weapons that appear (to the spectators) to be functional, but are actually constructed (balance, uncomfortable grips, hidden burrs, etc) so that the PCs looks like clowns.
Well, things worked out for the best I guess.
The PC in question did try to betray the party...I told him he had a contact (the madam at a whorehouse in shadowshore) who could put him in contact with the Lotus, and he went there and tried to set up a meeting to sell out the party to Vanthus.
Unbeknowst to him, he was followed by another PC who used hide and disguise self (and his +7 disguise skill, totalling a DC27 check) to shadow him...he didn't notice anything. The PC followed him to the whorehouse, but was unable to follow when he went into the madam's office to talk. She offered to set up a meeting with a Lotus representative the following evening.
The thing is, the party (including the would-be sellout) went to investigate the Taxidermist the next morning. The party cleric surprised me by offering to buy the stuffed Jaguar when it was finished, then delivering an inflict light wounds for 9 damage when they closed on the deal with a handshake! I called for initiative and Nemien would have fled, but he lost initiative and was hacked in half by the duskblade (who had also been the guy who was going to sell out the party).
They easily found the trap door; the beguiler disguised himself as Nemien and they went down into the Lotus tunnels. The thieves weren't on alert, so they eventually met some in a hallway.
"Nemien, what are you doing here with these people" , the thieves asked.
"I just brought them down here to show them the place", the player replied.
"You're an idiot!" the lead thief (a subcommander I had made up to expand the ranks) replied. Turning to his fellow rogues, "Kill them all!)
They had a huge running battle that at one point involving the party, 10 lotus rog1s, 4 lotus war1s, a rog1/swa2 , an a beguiler2. At one point I had half the group laid low by a color spray (from the beguiler, an NPC I had added to account for my 6 player party). Things looked grim and I thought I would get to capture them (leading to the scene we detailed above!) but they triggered the Earth Elemental Gem from the Parrot Caves and set it loose in the guild. The thieves all ran away, which bought the party time to recover from the color spray.
The bad guys regrouped in the training room; the party sent in the elemental (on its last round), it creamed the Lotus spellcaster, then the duskblade killed the other subleader, some thieves and thugs ran or surrendered, they killed the rhagodessa, and now the party is regrouping outside the room with the bugbear. I consolidated the torturer room with rowyn because I didn't want the climactic battle to only have her and gut tugger.
The party is running low on spells but will probably press on because (rightly) they assume that "lady lotus" will run off with the loot if they leave to rest. They already know that Vanthus is gone, courtesy of a captured and intimidated Lotus Thief.
All in all things went well. I want to thank all you guys for your suggestions; I doubt I will get to capture the party now, since it appears that the lotus representative won't be making his appointment ;-)
Ken
And hopefully, they will work together from here on out.
Well, I had another interesting adventure.
We had stopped playing last time right before the party entered the room with the bugbear zombie (Rowyn's guard).
One of the players (the guy playing the Dread Necromancer) had missed last game but could play this time. The party, after intimidating their captured thieves, decided to send one PC off to get the DN, while another guarded the captives, another watched the door to the zombie room, while the other 3 went and looted all the bodies that they'd killed.
I thought this was an excellent time to show the perils of splitting the party, so I had the torturer guy (with his poker) and another Lotus Thief ambush them. Unfortunately, they blew their move silently checks (for some reason, the Lotus Dragon rogues have poor MS skills) and were detected on ther approach, but still it quickly became a tough fight.
The guy guarding the captives (presently disarmed and intimidated with a DC26 intimidate check) ran to join the fight, getting there just as the cleric was dropped to -2hp. They beat the torturer down to like 2hp, then the Duskblade PC told him to surrender and readied an action to attack him if he did anything but drop his weapon. He surrendered ;-)
They rejoined the group, and waited for the Swashbuckler to return with the Dread Necromancer.
So, the whole party got together, and attacked the bugbear zombie, which was promptly taken over by the DN with a Command Undead scroll. They marched it into Rowy's room and demanded her surrender.
A battle ensued that was rather one-sided. One PC, the brother of another PC killed in the parrot island ambush, did the whole Inigo Montoya thing. That forclosed the whole 'Rowyn asks the party to switch sides ' thing, especially after the other party members had demanded her surrender, and were controlling her pet zombie.
So Rowyn took some damage, then tumbled off and drank her gaseous form potion, getting away and leaving Gut Tugger.
The party had made a good Knowledge: Arcana check and knew that Gut Tugger was a Crested Felldrake, and that he was intelligent. The Duskblade told Gut Tugger in Draconic that they were only there for Vanthus and wanted to talk. Negotiations ensued, and much to my surprise the party offered Gut Tugger effective control of the Lotus if he would work with them and give them a cut, plus 40% of the Lotus Treasury if he would show them where it was. Since 40% is a lot better than nothing, I had Gut Tugger agree. So, the rest of the captured rogues (8 or so) were marched in, the torturer guy was made the figurehead lotus leader, and the party got the 2 chests.
They couldn't open them (no one could make a DC30 open lock check), so 3 of the party members went off to hire a locksmith in Shadowshore to come open them (moving them up to the Taxidermist's Hall). While that was going on , the other 3 players (my group can never agree on anything) decided to go canvas the rest of the guild headquarters.
Eventually, they came upon the Rhagodessas.
Well, a 3rd level Swashbuckler, cleric, and warlock are no match for 3 Rhagodessas. And, since they hadn't taken my earlier hint on the disadvantages of splitting the group, I wasn't feeling like being nice.
So I ran the encounter straight... the swashbuckler ended up getting grappled, and so did the cleric, and the warlock ran away.
The swashbuckler was killed. The cleric went to -4 and stabilized, and I decided that the rhagodessas spun him up in a web and stored him for later (they're spiderlike , after all). The only reason I didn't kill his PC too was that the player of the cleric wasn't present, and his character was being run as an NPC by the others.
Eventually , the whole party came and killed the rhagodessas. They've taken the bait to go follow vanthus to kraken cove, and will go there next adventure.
Needless to say, they didn't tell Lavinia about her money. Surprisingly, they actually did leave 5000gp of the treasury money with Gut Tugger and the other thieves.
I had to go into initiative again because the Duskblade decided to attack the beguiler PC after an in-character argument. This is getting annoying to me, but the players haven't complained. They tend to have an argument, have a 1-round fight, then the loser backs down.
This brings up the last interesting development.
The player of the swashbuckler, who is the most normal player (good roleplayer, doesn't backstab the other players, etc) was very sad at dying a second time and asked if he could play Gut Tugger. I said he could, which opens up all kinds of possibilities, but closes a few (I was going to have Gut Tugger betray the party to the Kellanis and Rowyn, who is back at the Kellani estate). If he's a PC, the player can make a compelling argument that Gut Tugger feels betrayed by Rowyn, who essentially left him to die.
I am trying to decide what power level is appropriate for Gut Tugger as a PC. A crested felldrake is somewhat unoptimal... as presented he seems unable to wear armor (hence the collar of armor) or wield weapons (though he has a serious bite attack).
The Player is trying to decide whether Gut Tugger would work better as a rogue or a sorcerer. I am trying to decide how much of a level penalty a crested felldrake is really worth; I am certain that its ECL as presented in the rules will be too high. Since it fits well with the story, I want to make it a viable choice, I don't even care if it's a little too good, because the player in question isn't a powergamer.
The PCs are all 3rd level. Should I make Felldrake be worth 2 levels and make him a Felldrake/Rogue 1? Or just leave him as written?
If he decides to be a sorcerer, the felldrake stuff doesn't have a lot of synergy with sorcery, the loss of 2 caster levels seems excessive. What should the effective ECL of the felldrake levels be in this case? What if I let him start as a Felldrake/Sor2?
I want his character to be tough, but not broken. I am guessing he'll want to take a lot of the draconic feats in the long term, the seem made for a Felldrake PC.
Also, what should Rowyn and the Kellanis do? I don't want the whole campaign to be about taking down the Kellanis, since I really like the Isle of Dread stuff and I think that a bit more of 'Man Against Nature' theme would be good for getting the players to work together.
Ken
.....reads until gets to "wants to play as gut tugger"....
i think your players and mine are of the same mindset.
here's what i would do:
check the crested felldrake stats...not sure where they are, MM2 or Draconomicon maybe. Have the player in question pitch a character...rogue/sorcerer/etc, and work around that to make his character.
if im not mistaken, a felldrake with levels in pretty much anything besides dragon is wasting its time (what with the max in everything that matters and all)
give him an LA+1 and 1 HD of dragon, and you're set.
if he wants to play a sorcerer, let him...he'll die soon enough and can play a real (ie, not ecl+2) spellcaster, but let him have his fun as it is.
btw, did your group encounter the kobold cook? and if so, what was their reaction?
-the hamster
They were like 'cool, a kobold who cooks and makes poison'. I pitched the kobold as a replacement PC, but the player wasn't very interested.
Ken
The crested felldrake is not listed as being playable as a PC race, but here's my breakdown of what I'd recommend:
2 RACIAL HD
STATS: +4 CON, -4 INT, +2 WIS, -2 CHA (evens out so no ECL adjustment)
Nat Armour +4, Dragon Traits, Bite, Spd 40, Scent: +3 LA
Lack of Hands with thumbs: -1 LA (no using weapons, shields, or anything that requires fine manipulation)
Total: 2 HD and LA 2 =ECL 4 without class levels. Not quite on par with a true dragon, but reasonable and playable with some useful abilities.
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