paizo.com Recent Posts in Twilight of the Phoenixpaizo.com Recent Posts in Twilight of the Phoenix2012-11-15T19:46:05Z2012-11-15T19:46:05ZRe: Forums: Round 6: Submit an adventure proposal: Twilight of the PhoenixAsk A RPGSupersuccubus (alias of Charles Evans 25)https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2hvww?Twilight-of-the-Phoenix#432011-03-16T17:00:58Z2011-03-16T17:00:58Z<p>RPGSuperstar 2011 Round 5 Calibration Post:
<br />
<span class=messageboard-ooc>Disclaimer: </span>
<br />
(Statement)</p>
<p><b>(opening question)</b>
<br />
No. The premise is that the Church of Sarenrae 'hires' a band of adventurers to engage with events. The crusading holier-than-thou-looking-down-our-noses-at-you attitude of a lot of Sarenrae clerics tends to annoy most succubi, even when those clerics are offering them cash to go out and run errands for them. Whilst B <i>might</i> overlook her prejudices for pure cash, given the mission at hand effectively offers her license to add to her collection of antiquities without official fuss, and C might be on the fence given her personal conflicts, A and D are <i>not</i> going to go along with things without a good deal of additional inducement - such as the heads of several annoying Asmodeus cultists on silver plates. </p>
<p><b>(general comment)</b>
<br />
Being ambushed by Zon Kuthon cultists is likely to put the four in a foul mood for the rest of the mission, with a tendency to kill things with extreme prejudice.
<br />
Finding that the sage they've been sent to consult isn't at home but that a bunch of undead have moved into his tower is to be frank likely to send them back to their putative employers to renegotiate and haggle over the price again and require the demise of further Asmodeus cultists. They're highly unlikely to be stupid enough to loot his vault for any items though.
<br />
Following the sage to the oasis only to discover that he was there, but <i>failed</i> to retrieve the item he'd gone there to retrieve is likely to convince them that they're dealing with a bunch on inadequate amateurs. At this point the four are likely to loose their patience with the 'wild dretch hunt'. They <i>will</i> sort out the jann problems (that might provide useful social connections) but after that they will short-cut the rest of the mission by arranging some sacrifices to get the attention of an abyssal lord capable of sorting things out, instead of messing around wasting any more time chasing after the sage or phoenix staff. </p>
<p><b>(concluding question)</b>
<br />
The situation that the faithful of a sun goddess, Sarenrae, were unable to resolve the situation themselves, but were obliged to call in a quartet of succubi who followed things up for a time before short-cutting and calling in a demon lord (possibly Flauros) to literally 'save the day' is likely to substantially impact Osiriani culture and society. </p>
<p><b>Rating: </b>
<br />
A dozen cultists of Asmodeus plus the hundred souls that Flauros demanded (at the very least) to step in and clear up.
<br />
Anyone whom the assumption was that the adventurers were supposed to 'rescue' after the oasis can also be considered incidental casualties, as in this case, the party never got to them.
<br />
The faith of Sarenrae in Osirion could also be considered a partial casualty of the whole debacle.
<br />
<span class=messageboard-ooc>Further Disclaimer: </span> </p>
<p><span class=messageboard-ooc>Concluding Notes:
<br />
The opening disclaimer likely requires a substantial overhaul. Further calibration is required. </span></p>RPGSuperstar 2011 Round 5 Calibration Post:
Disclaimer:
(Statement)
(opening question)
No. The premise is that the Church of Sarenrae 'hires' a band of adventurers to engage with events. The crusading holier-than-thou-looking-down-our-noses-at-you attitude of a lot of Sarenrae clerics tends to annoy most succubi, even when those clerics are offering them cash to go out and run errands for them. Whilst B might overlook her prejudices for pure cash, given the mission at hand effectively...Ask A RPGSupersuccubus (alias of Charles Evans 25)2011-03-16T17:00:58ZRe: Forums: Round 6: Submit an adventure proposal: Twilight of the PhoenixJames Hunnicutthttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2hvww?Twilight-of-the-Phoenix#422008-02-22T14:38:43Z2008-02-22T14:38:43Z<p>I thought this was a great entry, especially the panoply. I appreciate you giving us more great stuff to borrow!</p>I thought this was a great entry, especially the panoply. I appreciate you giving us more great stuff to borrow!James Hunnicutt2008-02-22T14:38:43ZRe: Forums: Round 6: Submit an adventure proposal: Twilight of the PhoenixDoc_Outlandshttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2hvww?Twilight-of-the-Phoenix#412008-02-21T20:32:29Z2008-02-21T20:32:29Z<p>••hurriedly files off serial numbers then begins whistling innocently••</p>**hurriedly files off serial numbers then begins whistling innocently**Doc_Outlands2008-02-21T20:32:29ZRe: Forums: Round 6: Submit an adventure proposal: Twilight of the PhoenixErik Andersonhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2hvww?Twilight-of-the-Phoenix#402008-02-21T20:12:13Z2008-02-21T20:12:13Z<p>I was rooting for you, Rob. Great job with the contest!</p>I was rooting for you, Rob. Great job with the contest!Erik Anderson2008-02-21T20:12:13ZRe: Forums: Round 6: Submit an adventure proposal: Twilight of the PhoenixRob McCrearyhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2hvww?Twilight-of-the-Phoenix#392008-02-21T19:27:31Z2008-02-21T19:27:31Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Doc_Outlands wrote:</div><blockquote><p> Rob, my players have recently started nosing about the idea of a Central American style setting/campaign. Bits and pieces of <i>Twilight</i> started clicking into place and some possible adjustments started presenting themselves.</p>
<p>Bottom line - I might borrow a lot of your basis and rework it into a Mayan-style setting! That oughta show that WereLeopard Scout a thing or three! (actually, he'd bloody LOVE it!) </blockquote><p>HA! It's all owned by Paizo now! I'm out of the loop! ;)
<p>Seriously, I'm glad to hear someone can get some use out of it. The desert setting was chosen only to follow the Entombed with the Pharaohs module. I think it would work just as well in any setting.</p>
<p>When you make your changes and play through it, I'd love to hear how it went!</p>Doc_Outlands wrote:Rob, my players have recently started nosing about the idea of a Central American style setting/campaign. Bits and pieces of Twilight started clicking into place and some possible adjustments started presenting themselves.
Bottom line - I might borrow a lot of your basis and rework it into a Mayan-style setting! That oughta show that WereLeopard Scout a thing or three! (actually, he'd bloody LOVE it!)
HA! It's all owned by Paizo now! I'm out of the loop! ;) Seriously, I'm...Rob McCreary2008-02-21T19:27:31ZRe: Forums: Round 6: Submit an adventure proposal: Twilight of the PhoenixDoc_Outlandshttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2hvww?Twilight-of-the-Phoenix#382008-02-21T16:48:45Z2008-02-21T16:48:44Z<p>Rob, my players have recently started nosing about the idea of a Central American style setting/campaign. Bits and pieces of <i>Twilight</i> started clicking into place and some possible adjustments started presenting themselves.</p>
<p>Bottom line - I might borrow a lot of your basis and rework it into a Mayan-style setting! That oughta show that WereLeopard Scout a thing or three! (actually, he'd bloody LOVE it!)</p>Rob, my players have recently started nosing about the idea of a Central American style setting/campaign. Bits and pieces of Twilight started clicking into place and some possible adjustments started presenting themselves.
Bottom line - I might borrow a lot of your basis and rework it into a Mayan-style setting! That oughta show that WereLeopard Scout a thing or three! (actually, he'd bloody LOVE it!)Doc_Outlands2008-02-21T16:48:44ZRe: Forums: Round 6: Submit an adventure proposal: Twilight of the Phoenixcthulhudarrenhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2hvww?Twilight-of-the-Phoenix#372008-02-20T13:37:40Z2008-02-20T13:37:40Z<p>Eff the hatas! Great idea, vote cast.</p>Eff the hatas! Great idea, vote cast.cthulhudarren2008-02-20T13:37:40ZRe: Forums: Round 6: Submit an adventure proposal: Twilight of the PhoenixRob McCrearyhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2hvww?Twilight-of-the-Phoenix#362008-02-20T10:46:46Z2008-02-20T10:46:46Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Charles Evans 25 wrote:</div><blockquote>If you could have lost one of those 'stages' to your assemble the artifac quest, by almagamating it with another encounter, or scrubbing it altogether, I think that you might have made it a lot closer to 32 pages and making my final choice more difficult for me.</blockquote><div class="messageboard-quotee">Charles Evans 25 wrote:</div><blockquote>Couldn't you have wrapped the sphinx into another location?</blockquote><p>Technically, the Sphinx is tied to another location: she guards the Gates of the Dawn, which are the entrance to the Valley of Blue Sand, where the Tomb of the Resplendent Phoenix is located. Basically you talk to the Sphinx, head into the valley (maybe fight a few wandering monsters) and go straight to the tomb.
<p>That said, there might be too many stages. I originally started with only 3 items, but increased it to 4 for two related reasons:
<br />
1. A "standard" party is 4 characters, and each piece of the panoply fits one type of character: the cleric gets the <i>sunfire medallion</i>, the fighter gets the <i>phoenix tail flail</i>, the <i>crook of solar splendor</i> helps a sorcerer or bard, and the <i>crown of fiery sight</i> is for the wizard. (Ok, so there's nothing for the rogue. Too bad.)
<br />
2. If the DM doesn't want the party to have a powerful artifact (the <i>burning phoenix staff</i>) at the end, it can break into its constituent parts again, and the party has the individual items as their reward, one for each character.</p>
<p>That was my reasoning anyway. But yeah, I suppose you could remove one item, and the leftover character gets the <i>phoenix feather cloak</i>.</p>Charles Evans 25 wrote:If you could have lost one of those 'stages' to your assemble the artifac quest, by almagamating it with another encounter, or scrubbing it altogether, I think that you might have made it a lot closer to 32 pages and making my final choice more difficult for me.
Charles Evans 25 wrote:Couldn't you have wrapped the sphinx into another location?
Technically, the Sphinx is tied to another location: she guards the Gates of the Dawn, which are the entrance to the Valley of...Rob McCreary2008-02-20T10:46:46ZRe: Forums: Round 6: Submit an adventure proposal: Twilight of the PhoenixRob McCrearyhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2hvww?Twilight-of-the-Phoenix#352008-02-20T10:35:27Z2008-02-20T10:35:27Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">JoelF847 wrote:</div><blockquote>I also was pretty mystified about why the sage's tower self-destructs after taking the first piece. Why would he trap his home in a way that would destroy it? He wasn't planning on dying on his quest, and I'm sure he'd want to have a roof over his head afterwards.</blockquote><p>That's a good point. It was supposed to be a cool and cinematic trap that the players wouldn't expect. Also, what's more important - saving your house or protecting a powerful (and needed) artifact form those who would misuse it? But you could always say the wizard is powerful enough to rebuild his tower when needed. ;)
<div class="messageboard-quotee">JoelF847 wrote:</div><blockquote>An even better way to tie in the fight with the Dwellers in the Darkness could be to have one PC activate the staff, summon the phoenix, and then go into a trance like state while that PC actually controls the phoenix during its fight... </blockquote><p>That's a really cool idea, and would really add something to the final encounter. Great thinking!JoelF847 wrote:I also was pretty mystified about why the sage's tower self-destructs after taking the first piece. Why would he trap his home in a way that would destroy it? He wasn't planning on dying on his quest, and I'm sure he'd want to have a roof over his head afterwards.
That's a good point. It was supposed to be a cool and cinematic trap that the players wouldn't expect. Also, what's more important - saving your house or protecting a powerful (and needed) artifact form those who...Rob McCreary2008-02-20T10:35:27ZRe: Forums: Round 6: Submit an adventure proposal: Twilight of the PhoenixRob McCrearyhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2hvww?Twilight-of-the-Phoenix#342008-02-20T10:29:00Z2008-02-20T10:28:57Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Nem-Z wrote:</div><blockquote> The initial hook is awesome and very mythic in tone, but I'm having a hard time seeing why the players are getting involved. From the initial description this sounds like something out of an 8th level party's league.</blockquote><p>See my post above.
<div class="messageboard-quotee">Nem-Z wrote:</div><blockquote>Getting into the meat of the adventure I am rather underwhelmed. You hit all the big desert adventure tropes but there is also a good deal of seemingly pointless busywork involved, complete with undead-filled-tower of a guy who was probably living here just a week ago, which for some reason seems to suffer from <b>load-bearing-boss syndrome</b>.</blockquote><p>I'm not sure what you mean by "load-bearing-boss syndrome." But the tower is located in an undead-infested valley, and with no daylight to restrict their movement, the undead are out in force. And they're in the tower because the intelligent undead want to see what the wizard has been up to. Now that he's gone, it's the first place to start building your own undead power base.
<div class="messageboard-quotee">Nem-Z wrote:</div><blockquote>I kinda feel like this would have played out better if the PC's were given the option of which piece to go after next after acquiring the first.</blockquote><p>Unfortunately, I think very few published adventures have such an open-ended setup, because it's too hard to address party EL. For example, if the PCs go to the Oasis first, it should have EL8 encounters. If they show up once they're L10, the encounters are too easy. If they head to the Tomb at L8, and the encounters are designed for L10, you have a TPK. So you have to set up a progression, IMO.
<div class="messageboard-quotee">Nem-Z wrote:</div><blockquote>It also hurts that the entire adventure had me constantly fighting off a serious case of deja vu for Diablo 2's second act. It had a desert themed fetch megaquest about searching multiple locations to find and reassemble a magic staff (which also functioned separately as magic items) in a race against extraplanar evil, including at one point facing off with a cult that blacks out the sun. </blockquote><p>Sounds like a case of parallel development. I've never played Diablo 2. And as mentioned previously, the proposal was based on J1 and tales of a world-spanning darkness in Golarion's history.Nem-Z wrote:The initial hook is awesome and very mythic in tone, but I'm having a hard time seeing why the players are getting involved. From the initial description this sounds like something out of an 8th level party's league.
See my post above. Nem-Z wrote:Getting into the meat of the adventure I am rather underwhelmed. You hit all the big desert adventure tropes but there is also a good deal of seemingly pointless busywork involved, complete with undead-filled-tower of a guy who was...Rob McCreary2008-02-20T10:28:57ZRe: Forums: Round 6: Submit an adventure proposal: Twilight of the PhoenixRob McCrearyhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2hvww?Twilight-of-the-Phoenix#332008-02-20T10:21:31Z2008-02-20T10:21:13Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Ernest Mueller wrote:</div><blockquote><p> I like this one, very I3-5 in its feel. The "desert, but always dark" imagery is cool and the bit of Cthulhu thrown in is always fun. </p>
<p>I do have a couple concerns - something like "the sun not coming back" seems like it would attract more than some random L8 adventurers.</blockquote><p>Since this was designed as a sequel, the L8 adventurers are already in Osirion. And there isn't time to "attract" more powerful adventurers - the eclipse is already in progress, and it needs to be stopped NOW, before the Dwellers in Darkness show up in force.
<div class="messageboard-quotee">Ernest Mueller wrote:</div><blockquote> Also, it seems a little linear/railroady. Some of the quests appear a little contrived - "go kill some behirs for us" is the trigger for many PC groups I've been in to kill the jann instead. "You're in the Monster Manual too b••%~es, come across with the info."</blockquote><p>Nothing says the PCs can't kill the jann. But every encounter in a published adventure assumes certain actions on the part of the PCs, be it combat, negotiation, or what-have-you. It's impossible to write an encounter that addresses every possible player action. You design it for one particular type of play, and if the players "go off the rails," so to speak, it's up to the DM to modify the adventure and wing it.
<p>In fact, as proposed, there's no real need for the PCs to kill the behirs. But if they do, they find the <i>brass sphinx</i>, which makes the later encounter with the Golden Sphinx easier. But it is by no means required.</p>Ernest Mueller wrote:I like this one, very I3-5 in its feel. The "desert, but always dark" imagery is cool and the bit of Cthulhu thrown in is always fun.
I do have a couple concerns - something like "the sun not coming back" seems like it would attract more than some random L8 adventurers.
Since this was designed as a sequel, the L8 adventurers are already in Osirion. And there isn't time to "attract" more powerful adventurers - the eclipse is already in progress, and it needs to be...Rob McCreary2008-02-20T10:21:13ZRe: Forums: Round 6: Submit an adventure proposal: Twilight of the PhoenixRob McCrearyhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2hvww?Twilight-of-the-Phoenix#322008-02-20T10:13:17Z2008-02-20T10:13:16Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">varianor wrote:</div><blockquote>Sand elementals? Erm. What’s elemental about sand? It’s fused stone. Glass or rock honed down to tiny little grains. Okay, that’s a quibble.</blockquote><p>Sand elementals are taken from <a href="http://paizo.com/store/downloads/gameMasteryModules/v5748btpy80ea" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">J1: Entombed with the Pharaohs</a>. They were mentioned in passing in that module, and I used them because I designed Twilight of the Phoenix as a sequel to that module. But really, I just viewed them as earth elementals (though I was considering adding the Dust Creature template from <a href="http://paizo.com/store/byCompany/g/greenRoninPublishing/byProductType/roleplayingGames/advancedRulebooks/v5748btpy7eve&source=search" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">Advanced Bestiary</a>).
<div class="messageboard-quotee">varianor wrote:</div><blockquote>The Dominion of the Black intrigues me a lot. Moreso than the adventure, which is quite capable, and seems like it would fit within 32 pages (unlike the prior two that I read). I’d be tempted to just chuck the adventure and tell you to write up the Dominion.</blockquote><p>The Dominions of the Black was taken from J1 as well, again mentioned in passing as an adventure hook. But I'd love to write up something on just the Dominions and the Dwellers in the Darkness!varianor wrote:Sand elementals? Erm. What’s elemental about sand? It’s fused stone. Glass or rock honed down to tiny little grains. Okay, that’s a quibble.
Sand elementals are taken from J1: Entombed with the Pharaohs. They were mentioned in passing in that module, and I used them because I designed Twilight of the Phoenix as a sequel to that module. But really, I just viewed them as earth elementals (though I was considering adding the Dust Creature template from Advanced Bestiary)....Rob McCreary2008-02-20T10:13:16ZRe: Forums: Round 6: Submit an adventure proposal: Twilight of the PhoenixRob McCrearyhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2hvww?Twilight-of-the-Phoenix#312008-02-20T10:07:03Z2008-02-20T10:07:02Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Set wrote:</div><blockquote><p> I really, really knee-jerk against any 'adventure' where I fight to the end and then get to watch an NPC handle the work while I battle some mooks, or, worse, stand and watch.</p>
<p>I'd ditch the Nightwhatevers, and have the Phoenix be less a creature and more a primal force that is sent up into the sky to end the eclipse. The portal / conjunction / unwholesome closeness to that Other Place is already open, however, and the party has to fight the Dwellers in Darkness (which sound a lot cooler than those weird undead I don't think I've ever seen used) while the 'phoenix' does it's thing and closes the portal. More 'macguffin,' less 'NPC.'</blockquote><p>I agree, and I viewed the Phoenix as a more primal force, but I don't think I made it clear enough in the proposal. The Dwellers in the Darkness are the real bad guys that the PCs must defeat. The nightshades are there to give the phoenix something to do while the PCs finish off the real baddies.Set wrote:I really, really knee-jerk against any 'adventure' where I fight to the end and then get to watch an NPC handle the work while I battle some mooks, or, worse, stand and watch.
I'd ditch the Nightwhatevers, and have the Phoenix be less a creature and more a primal force that is sent up into the sky to end the eclipse. The portal / conjunction / unwholesome closeness to that Other Place is already open, however, and the party has to fight the Dwellers in Darkness (which sound a lot...Rob McCreary2008-02-20T10:07:02ZRe: Forums: Round 6: Submit an adventure proposal: Twilight of the PhoenixRob McCrearyhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2hvww?Twilight-of-the-Phoenix#302014-03-20T21:12:08Z2008-02-20T10:04:50Z<p>Once again, and for the last time, it's time for comments. As usual, thanks to everyone for taking the time to read my entries and comment, and a special thanks to those who voted for them. This truly has been an amazing, educational, and fun experience for me.</p>
<p>But on to <b>Twilight of the Phoenix!</b></p>
<p>To address some comments:</p>
<p><b>I hate Egyptian settings!</b>
<br />
To begin, this was written as a sequel to Paizo's wonderful <a href="http://paizo.com/store/downloads/gameMasteryModules/v5748btpy80ea" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">J1: Entombed with the Pharaohs</a>. That's the reason for setting it in Osirion, and for placing it at 8th level - I was designing it to follow right behind J1. Without giving away any spoilers, Twilight of the Phoenix was an attempt to pick up the threads left after J1, particularly the adventure hooks written in the "Aucturn Enigma" sidebar. The Dominions of the Black was taken from there, and the never-ending eclipse was a reference to the darkness that covered all of Golarion in the past.</p>
<p>So while I understand the Egyptian setting might not be to everyone's taste, as Erik said, J1 has been one of Paizo's best-selling GameMastery modules and I was attempting to capitalize on that fandom. At the time, "Entombed with the Pharaohs" was leading the <a href="http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/gameMastery/modules/pollWhichOfTheFollowingGameMasteryModulesWouldYouBeMostInterestedInSeeingASequelFor" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">Which GameMastery sequel do you want? poll</a> (though it has since been overtaken by D1 Crown of the Kobold King).</p>
<p><b>You've got way too many encounters for a 32-page module!</b>
<br />
I have to disagree here, but then, I've never actually written a 32-page adventure before. But I did calculate the number of encounters based on a <a href="http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/gameMastery/general/openCall&page=2" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">post made by James Jacobs</a> during the GameMastery Open Call.</p>
<div class="messageboard-quotee">James Jacobs wrote:</div><blockquote><p>500 words per encounter remains a pretty good rough estimate method for an adventure. Check out, for example, Seven Swords of Sin. It's got 36 encounters, so that'd be 18,000 words right there, which leaves only 4,000 words for introduction, sidebars, new monsters, and the appendix.</p>
<p>Works pretty good for Crown of the Kobold King too: The dungeon has 33 encounters, for an estimate of 16,500 words. There's also another 2,000 words or so spread out over the wilderness encounters, though, once again leaving us about 4,000 words for the rest of the adventure.</p>
<p>It's probably best to limit yourself to about 35 encounters for a 32 page adventure, in any case. Leave yourself a little bit more elbow room for unanticipated extra stuff, and when you're drawing your maps, remember that if you have more than 35 rooms, you'll be locking yourself in to a too-big setup.</blockquote><p>Assuming 500 words, I planned 35 encounters, for a total of 17,500 words, which would still leave 3500 words for additional material. In point of fact, the proposal itself only mentions 21 encounters, for a total of 10,500 words, only half of the module's total word count. And keep in mind most of the encounters are bog-standard SRD, which don't need a stat block, just a reference to the MM.
<p>So I have to say that I think this would fit into a 32-page module, unless all of the prior assumptions are wrong. :)</p>
<p><b>The Phoenix is <i>deus ex machina</i>!</b>
<br />
I have to disagree here as well, though I can understand why it seems this way. Once the PCs recover the entire panoply, they should know that they can summon the phoenix. In order to do the legendary creature justice, it has to be much more powerful than the party. Its main role is to end the eclipse; the nightshades are there to force the PCs to use the staff to summon the phoenix. Otherwise, they might decide to just hold on to it and the DM is left with an 11th-level party holding a major artifact. (Actually, this was something I debated putting in the proposal: is the staff destroyed when the phoenix is summoned? I ultimately decided to leave it up to the DM if they wanted their players to have an artifact at this point or not, something that would have been spelled out in the final module.)</p>
<p>In addition, the nightshades are like Hannibal's elephants (or the Oliphaunts in The Return the King): big, scary war machines, but there's only two of them. The real threat is the hordes of Dwellers in the Darkness that will come pouring through the portal, and that is who the PCs must face. The nightshades are war machines, the Dwellers are the generals. The PCs have their own war machine (the phoenix) to take on the enemy war machines, but its up to the PCs themselves to stop the masterminds behind the invasion.</p>
<p><b>How can you go from 8th to 11th level in one adventure?!</b>
<br />
This is related to the number of encounters above. I actually planned all 35 encounters in the adventure, and figured out the average XP for each encounter for a standard 4 character party. By my calculations, the party would reach 9th level during the Oasis of the Four Winds, hit 10th after finishing the Fane of the Forgotten Faith, and ending up at 11th level after defeating the Dwellers in the Darkness at the end.</p>
<p>Is this too much advancement? <a href="http://paizo.com/store/downloads/gameMasteryModules/v5748btpy804h" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">U1 Gallery of Evil</a> starts at 8th level and finishes at 10th, so my proposal isn't too far off. And if some encounters were removed to address the "too many encounters" concern, it might very well end up at 10th by the end of the module.</p>
<p>It's also worth noting that the encounters as planned are spread over a variety of difficulties, as described in the DMG: some encounters would be less difficult, with an EL below the party's level, and some would be more difficult, with a higher EL, and therefore more XP. But the end result would be the same: 11th level at the end, if the party meets and overcomes every encounter; otherwise, they would probably end at 10th.</p>
<p>Thanks again for reading, and I'll address some specific comments in smaller posts. Feel free to ask other questions as well; I'll do my best to answer them!</p>Once again, and for the last time, it's time for comments. As usual, thanks to everyone for taking the time to read my entries and comment, and a special thanks to those who voted for them. This truly has been an amazing, educational, and fun experience for me.
But on to Twilight of the Phoenix!
To address some comments:
I hate Egyptian settings!
To begin, this was written as a sequel to Paizo's wonderful J1: Entombed with the Pharaohs. That's the reason for setting it in Osirion, and for...Rob McCreary2008-02-20T10:04:50ZRe: Forums: Round 6: Submit an adventure proposal: Twilight of the PhoenixDoc_Outlandshttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2hvww?Twilight-of-the-Phoenix#292008-02-18T02:32:03Z2008-02-18T02:32:03Z<p>Wow. Saving the world at lvl 8!</p>
<p>Ok, I would break this into 3 adventures - for starters. Second, I'm thinking I would replace all the "normal" abnormalities the PCs encounter with these ... otherworldly things.</p>
<p>In fact, I'm thinking •I• would change things up a tad - have the Zon-Kuthon cult having performed a vast ritual to summon the dark nasties. As a result, certain baddies have begun the process of being taken over by the Dominion. Everything the PCs encounter display Dominion-inspired abnormalities, getting progressively nastier as the characters progress. </p>
<p>Lots of great potential here - but it is waaaay more than a single 32-pg adventure.</p>Wow. Saving the world at lvl 8!
Ok, I would break this into 3 adventures - for starters. Second, I'm thinking I would replace all the "normal" abnormalities the PCs encounter with these ... otherworldly things.
In fact, I'm thinking *I* would change things up a tad - have the Zon-Kuthon cult having performed a vast ritual to summon the dark nasties. As a result, certain baddies have begun the process of being taken over by the Dominion. Everything the PCs encounter display Dominion-inspired...Doc_Outlands2008-02-18T02:32:03ZRe: Forums: Round 6: Submit an adventure proposal: Twilight of the PhoenixGolwan (alias of Golwano)https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2hvww?Twilight-of-the-Phoenix#282008-02-17T21:44:19Z2008-02-17T21:44:19Z<p>a good adventure proposal for sure ... there is some nice stuff in there, I really like the adventure hook and the collapsing tower part and the sphinx part. Overall it is somewhat linear though and the end comes off somewhat anti-climactic on paper ... it would probably be fun to play though but some more involvement of the players in the outcome besides calling forth the Phoenix would be nice. Overall a solid story and a good job.</p>a good adventure proposal for sure ... there is some nice stuff in there, I really like the adventure hook and the collapsing tower part and the sphinx part. Overall it is somewhat linear though and the end comes off somewhat anti-climactic on paper ... it would probably be fun to play though but some more involvement of the players in the outcome besides calling forth the Phoenix would be nice. Overall a solid story and a good job.Golwan (alias of Golwano)2008-02-17T21:44:19ZRe: Forums: Round 6: Submit an adventure proposal: Twilight of the Phoenixgboneheadhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2hvww?Twilight-of-the-Phoenix#272008-02-17T16:22:37Z2008-02-17T16:05:35Z<p>I think this was one of the better put-together of the proposals, but in my mind it suffered from three defects (not that it was necessarily alone in that regard):</p>
<p>1. The gigantic deus ex machinae at the end. I hate this sort of thing, both as a player and as a DM. This is a game, so it's important to remember that the players are the center of the game. In a long-running campaign it's okay to have something come in and save the day (especially if it's the characters asking for it), but in general it's a bad idea.</p>
<p>2. The egyptian look and feel. Yeah, I get it. Yeah, it's popular. But there will be a big chunk of people (like me) that go "An Egyptian-themed adventure? Next." I might pull out pieces of it if it were handed to me (some of the creatures, most likely) but I wouldn't buy it.</p>
<p>3. Too much stuff. The stuff there was cool, but not all of it was directly related to the plot. I write a lot of events that run at cons, and if it's in there, it better be related to the plot or you probably won't be finishing on schedule. I suspect that writing a GameMastery module is very similar.</p>
<p>However, this was one of the ones that appealed the most to me, overall, as a strong submission - it was laid out well, it clearly identified all of the pieces, and it was not overly politico-sociological or stream-of-consciousness heavy. You Know Who You Are :)</p>
<p>If Christine weren't in this contest, you'd probably get my vote, ironically, even though I'd have no intent to buy the module, because I think it was the second-best put together entry. I'd just hope that in the future we'd get off the whole Egyptian kick.</p>I think this was one of the better put-together of the proposals, but in my mind it suffered from three defects (not that it was necessarily alone in that regard):
1. The gigantic deus ex machinae at the end. I hate this sort of thing, both as a player and as a DM. This is a game, so it's important to remember that the players are the center of the game. In a long-running campaign it's okay to have something come in and save the day (especially if it's the characters asking for it), but in...gbonehead2008-02-17T16:05:35ZRe: Forums: Round 6: Submit an adventure proposal: Twilight of the PhoenixSteven Helthttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2hvww?Twilight-of-the-Phoenix#262008-02-17T15:59:26Z2008-02-17T15:59:24Z<p>This is the second adventure I read, so I don't kow where my vote lies yet.</p>
<p>One thing I look for in adventures is great cinema: can these scenes unfold in the minds of players and create the same thing that I see?</p>
<p><i>Twilight of the Pheonix</i> would be one of the most cinematic adventures I have seen, with a setting you don't see every day, a high-speed romp across a desert nation in total darkness, vampires who get to come out during the day, a Rod of Four Parts, etc. The eclipse is a dramatic and cinematic beginning, the exploding Pheonix is a dramatic and satisfying conclusion.</p>
<p>Other great moments include a glass tower collapsing into sand and a conversation with an enormous, all-wise Sphinx. I agree that you don't want to make the PCs seem small during the adventure, but when the end of the world is at stake, I think players expect to see some pretty big guns come out for both sides. Standing before the awesome Sphinx makes for great roleplay. Keeping the panoply safe from the Dominion of the Black while the Phoenix battles the nightshades, that's a good combat, with brief scenes of the far off Pheonix immolating the nighwing in midair, and then returning to a cliff or dune battle against the flying octopi. I would worry that at 12th or 13th level, the PCs might try to take on the nightwing (and probably succeed) or nightwalker (at which point you can let them know what happened after they died).</p>
<p>There's not enough done with the Dominion of the Black, but could a clever DM turn that into a good thing? Sometimes what players assume is worse than what they actually see. By not statting them or featuring them, they might be scarier. The PCs could fight the nightwing instead, and they'd likely assume that failure means the world will be full of nightshades. That's pretty scary!</p>
<p>I think this adventure risks going over 32 pages, but I thnk that can be edited. You have a fast-paced, fun adventure that would make great memories for anyone who played it. Great job.</p>This is the second adventure I read, so I don't kow where my vote lies yet.
One thing I look for in adventures is great cinema: can these scenes unfold in the minds of players and create the same thing that I see?
Twilight of the Pheonix would be one of the most cinematic adventures I have seen, with a setting you don't see every day, a high-speed romp across a desert nation in total darkness, vampires who get to come out during the day, a Rod of Four Parts, etc. The eclipse is a dramatic...Steven Helt2008-02-17T15:59:24ZRe: Forums: Round 6: Submit an adventure proposal: Twilight of the PhoenixJoel Flankhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2hvww?Twilight-of-the-Phoenix#252008-02-16T01:28:22Z2008-02-16T01:28:17Z<p>While I liked your proposal, and it had some great elements, I don't think it lived up to its potential. There seemed to be too many fights which either didn't really fit into the story, or would be too repetitive. At each location, the party has to fight not only the local guardian creatures, but also the cult of night/darkness trying to stop them. It would have been cool to mix it up a bit, and have the ability to go after the items in any order, and have the first one have guardian creatures to deal with, and completely beat the bad guys to the locale, have the second location be guardians followed by a bad guy ambush since they got there too late, and the third location have the PCs arrive too late, have the bad guys already with the item and beaten the guardians, and have to ambush them for a change.</p>
<p>I also was pretty mystified about why the sage's tower self-destructs after taking the first piece. Why would he trap his home in a way that would destroy it? He wasn't planning on dying on his quest, and I'm sure he'd want to have a roof over his head afterwards. </p>
<p>Criticisms aside, I DID like your overall adventure, and think that the repetitiveness in the middle combined by the overall length could easily have been handled simultaneously by cutting out one of the artifacts. </p>
<p>As for the criticism that others have raise about not being fun to have the PCs summon the phoenix which actually saves the day, I actually like that ending as a bit of variety, instead of having the PCs ALWAYS directly kill the baddies, in this case they're 8th level, and couldn't. If 20th level characters were in this adventure, they could handle it themselves, but I think it's pretty cool to summon a "Godzilla" powered creature and have it kick some Nightshade ass in the final scene. An even better way to tie in the fight with the Dwellers in the Darkness could be to have one PC activate the staff, summon the phoenix, and then go into a trance like state while that PC actually controls the phoenix during its fight against the Nightshade, and the rest of the PCs have to defend the summoner from attacks by the Dwellers in the Darkness, who are trying to disrupt the control of the Phoenix.</p>
<p>You would have gotten my second vote if I had two, narrowly edging out Boomer, since I think your proposal can be made to fit into a good 32 page adventure, while his would have to be trimmed to fit into a 3 parter!</p>While I liked your proposal, and it had some great elements, I don't think it lived up to its potential. There seemed to be too many fights which either didn't really fit into the story, or would be too repetitive. At each location, the party has to fight not only the local guardian creatures, but also the cult of night/darkness trying to stop them. It would have been cool to mix it up a bit, and have the ability to go after the items in any order, and have the first one have guardian...Joel Flank2008-02-16T01:28:17ZRe: Forums: Round 6: Submit an adventure proposal: Twilight of the PhoenixJeremy Clementshttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2hvww?Twilight-of-the-Phoenix#242008-02-15T22:27:43Z2008-02-15T22:27:43Z<p>I liked it. The egyptian theme has always been one of my favorites. Good work.</p>I liked it. The egyptian theme has always been one of my favorites. Good work.Jeremy Clements2008-02-15T22:27:43ZRe: Forums: Round 6: Submit an adventure proposal: Twilight of the PhoenixCharles Evans 25https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2hvww?Twilight-of-the-Phoenix#232008-02-15T20:28:44Z2008-02-15T20:25:06Z<p>Rob:
<br />
I would have liked to have seen you in closer contention, but one of my principle assessment criteria for this round has been, first and foremost, 'how close, in the absence of heavy editting, is this to a 32 page module?' Christine was the only one who did that in my opinion, and I think that she wrote as good an entry as anyone else in this round as well, in terms of general ideas and action.
<br />
If you could have lost one of those 'stages' to your assemble the artifac quest, by almagamating it with another encounter, or scrubbing it altogether, I think that you might have made it a lot closer to 32 pages and making my final choice more difficult for me.
<br />
I have liked many of your entries (particularly the Ooze Imperium) and the levels of feedback that you have consistently given, and hope that someone offers you work in the industry anyway, or at least that you come back next time that Paizo runs this contest.</p>Rob:
I would have liked to have seen you in closer contention, but one of my principle assessment criteria for this round has been, first and foremost, 'how close, in the absence of heavy editting, is this to a 32 page module?' Christine was the only one who did that in my opinion, and I think that she wrote as good an entry as anyone else in this round as well, in terms of general ideas and action.
If you could have lost one of those 'stages' to your assemble the artifac quest, by...Charles Evans 252008-02-15T20:25:06ZRe: Forums: Round 6: Submit an adventure proposal: Twilight of the PhoenixMatrissa the Enchantresshttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2hvww?Twilight-of-the-Phoenix#222008-02-15T18:34:07Z2008-02-15T18:34:05Z<p><b>Methodology</b>
<br />
I decided to read the entries in reverse order of my past appreciation of the contestant's work. I went this route because I wanted to give each author a chance to impress me before I read work by the others with whom I had been more impressed in the past. After my first pass, I returned to each in order, from best to ... least (none of these are even remotely "worst") and then read what the judges and others had to say.</p>
<p><b>Critique</b>
<br />
Rob:</p>
<p>Given that I've been your self-proclaimed cheerleader since after the 4th round, I read your entry last and gave all the others the chance to impress me first. </p>
<p>Right off the bat, I liked your title, but that's mostly because I have a particular fondness for the Phoenix - back in the day of 300 Baud dial-up BBS forums <span class=tiny><i>(am I dating myself too badly here?)</i></span> I regularly went by the handle "Phoenix". Then I found that your adventure was for level 8 and that was just plain AWESOME - I've never run or played in a campaign past the level 12 range and prefer to pick up adventures in the 7-10 range. With everyone else turning in proposals for higher levels, this was right up my alley.</p>
<p>An eclipse that won't go away, alien invaders, a multi-part magic item that must be collected and an ancient magical power that must be re-awakened in order to break the eclipse and undo any attack. This I want to run as a DM - it's expansive and has a good reason to send the PCs to different areas and, ergo, gives the DM a good reason to throw them into several encounters in a variety of different environments and situations. It would be fun to be a PC too, but running this would be a blast.</p>
<p>I can't agree with Clark that it is "uninspired" and "been there done that". Yes, it uses several "classic" (or "cliched" if you must) elements but it ties them together in a way that seemed exciting and playable to me. And some of the new monsters are inspired - cephalopodic winged crustaceans with tentacles. C'mon. That's just brilliant! </p>
<p>I do agree, however, that the ending is a bit "Meh", since the Phoeneix is responsible for taking out "the really big bad", leaving the PC's to deal with the "the smaller bad". I'd definitely like to see this changed to give the PC's a bigger role in the final showdown. I rather liked what Set suggested, making the Phoenix more of a primal force that must be unleashed to open up the exclipse, and the Dwellers in Darkness are the real "Big Bad" that the PCs must still crush.</p>
<p>In the end you've earned the Gold Medal and get my vote.</p>
<p>I do have to be honest, however, and admit that it was a <i>verrrrry</i> close call between you and Jason. I honestly gave his entry some serious thought, but it's high level (17th) and the strength of your earlier work were enough to keep the balance in your favour.</p>
<p>Having said all that, I suspect Christine is actually going to snag the RPG Superstar title based on the comments I've seen so far. Nevertheless, congratulations on being in the top 99.5th percentile of RPG Adventure Designers and I hope you do something about getting this adventure published by <i>someone</i>!</p>Methodology
I decided to read the entries in reverse order of my past appreciation of the contestant's work. I went this route because I wanted to give each author a chance to impress me before I read work by the others with whom I had been more impressed in the past. After my first pass, I returned to each in order, from best to ... least (none of these are even remotely "worst") and then read what the judges and others had to say.
Critique
Rob:
Given that I've been your self-proclaimed...Matrissa the Enchantress2008-02-15T18:34:05ZRe: Forums: Round 6: Submit an adventure proposal: Twilight of the PhoenixRagwainehttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2hvww?Twilight-of-the-Phoenix#212008-02-15T17:03:47Z2008-02-15T17:03:46Z<p>Post got eaten a second before I remembered to ctrl-C it. Here it is again.</p>
<p>So I'm reading this thinking this is definitely not someone that is new to the game. "Egg of the Phoenix", "Rod of Many Parts", "Desert of Desolation", the only thing is that I don't see anything new or creative added. Plus I'm pretty turned off by anything settings that use real world cultures so completely.</p>
<p>It was very readable and I liked the hag bounty hunter and the cinematic ending. I would have maybe let the PC's face one of the big guys and realize that they're out of their league (maybe kill of a pc) before the Phoenix shows up.</p>
<p>This is the first entry that I read so I'm hoping I enjoy the others more.</p>Post got eaten a second before I remembered to ctrl-C it. Here it is again.
So I'm reading this thinking this is definitely not someone that is new to the game. "Egg of the Phoenix", "Rod of Many Parts", "Desert of Desolation", the only thing is that I don't see anything new or creative added. Plus I'm pretty turned off by anything settings that use real world cultures so completely.
It was very readable and I liked the hag bounty hunter and the cinematic ending. I would have maybe let the...Ragwaine2008-02-15T17:03:46ZRe: Forums: Round 6: Submit an adventure proposal: Twilight of the PhoenixGeraintElberionhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2hvww?Twilight-of-the-Phoenix#202008-02-15T12:30:01Z2008-02-15T12:30:01Z<p>The other adventures i've wanted to play - this one I want to DM.</p>
<p>excellent.</p>The other adventures i've wanted to play - this one I want to DM.
excellent.GeraintElberion2008-02-15T12:30:01ZRe: Forums: Round 6: Submit an adventure proposal: Twilight of the PhoenixRob McCrearyhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2hvww?Twilight-of-the-Phoenix#192008-02-15T09:12:37Z2008-02-15T09:12:36Z<p>Thanks to the judges and everyone else for their comments, critiques, and votes, not only this round but all the previous rounds as well. Please continue with your comments and questions, which I will do my best to explain and answer when voting is over.</p>
<p>This has been an amazingly fun learning experience, and I hope I'm able to show you more of what I can do in the future.</p>
<p>So come on all you Osirion-loving gamers out there - VOTE for <b>Twilight of the Phoenix!</b></p>Thanks to the judges and everyone else for their comments, critiques, and votes, not only this round but all the previous rounds as well. Please continue with your comments and questions, which I will do my best to explain and answer when voting is over.
This has been an amazingly fun learning experience, and I hope I'm able to show you more of what I can do in the future.
So come on all you Osirion-loving gamers out there - VOTE for Twilight of the Phoenix!Rob McCreary2008-02-15T09:12:36Z