First of all let me say that Nicolas Logue's Hook Mountain Massacre is one of the best adventure's I've read in a long while. The Graul family is one of the creepiest, most disturbing group of opponents that I've ever read in a D&D adventure. As a fan of movies like Texas Chainsaw Massacre, The Hills Have Eyes, House of a 1000 Corpses, etc. the characterization of the ogres and ogrekin as inbred mutants was a nice twist on the usual "dumb brute" characterization common in D&D.
Reading James Jacobs Hills Have Hooks forward, it was mentioned the Hook Mountain Massacre was edited down to keep Mr. Logue out of a sanitarium. All well and good, but I was wondering if an unofficial, uncut version might ever be available?
He's Mad I tell you! MAD!!!
Probably not, friend. Yours is not the first request and there's been a couple threads on this already. The answer has been a consistant decline.
One factor that may have played a part, was that there was a negative backlash to HMM. People complained. One customer threatened to no longer buy Logue products. I think there was a fear on the part of those folks that HMM would become representative of all future Paizo adventures (or in one case, Nick Logue adventures). Also, some customers felt they could not utilize the adventure in family friendly games.
A large contingent responded by saying they really enjoyed it. Loved it. Lots of discussion ensued, even some arguing. Some it polite, some it not.
(EDITORIAL: It's the nature of messageboards, I am learning, that when one or two people post a position there becomes a fear that Paizo will entirely change their format, so as quickly as possible others will post a counter opinion. I guess in order to strike a 'karmic balance'.)
I don't presume to judge those that didn't care for it, or those that did. Hopefully I kept my own bias out of the paragraphs above. This is also, only my opinion on the events.
Me? I liked HMM too. This is only the history of what has been discussed before. You have come to this party late my friend, and this is a well worn topic. You can search the boards and find a couple threads on this. At least one long one on this topic, and another on 'Logue Products'
Hope this helps.
All well and good, but I was wondering if an unofficial, uncut version might ever be available?
Dr. Jacobs also stated that he was going to use some of the cut material in Edge of Anarchy, I believe, so you can see some of it there.
Dr. Jacobs also stated that he was going to use some of the cut material in Edge of Anarchy, I believe, so you can see some of it there.
All the better then.
Dr. Jacobs also stated that he was going to use some of the cut material in Edge of Anarchy, I believe, so you can see some of it there.
What is Edge of Anarchy? This is the first time I've heard of it? While I've been a [/i]Dungeon subscriber for years and reading Pathfinder[i] from the start, I've been absent from RPG messageboards for 2 years or so. It wasn't until last month I started actively reading, thus explaining my lateness for the party on the HMM issue...
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What is Edge of Anarchy? This is the first time I've heard of it? While I've been a [/i]Dungeon subscriber for years and reading Pathfinder[i] from the start, I've been absent from RPG messageboards for 2 years or so. It wasn't until last month I started actively reading, thus explaining my lateness for the party on the HMM issue...
Edge of Anarchy is the 7th volume of pathfinder, and the first chapter of the next AP. It is an urban adventure set in Korvosa.
Creative Director
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There's not going to be an "Unrated cut" of Hook Mountain coming from Paizo, partially because we don't have time to take away from the current Pathfinders to go back and rebuild Hook Mountain from scratch, and partially because the significant "cut" elements from Hook Mountain have already been rebuilt and put into Pathfinder #7.
If we ever DO tackle an even more mature adventure in Pathfinder, it'll be something new that we work on from the start to make an "R-rated" or "unrated" adventure. And judging by the vocal reaction to Hook Mountain, chances are good that we won't be trying something like this anytime soon. That said, I'd love to try it some day. As the author of Dungeon #95's "Porphyry House Horror," and as a fan of edgy, dark entertainment like Clive Barker & Stephen King books or J-horror or John Carpenter, etc., I do enjoy the darker side of things. It'll be more likely that if we try a darker adventure or product, though, that it'll be a stand-alone product and clearly marked as "For Mature Audiences Only" or some such.
As for the "cut" material from Hook Mountain, the largest section that was cut was indeed the part of the adventure on Paradise, the floating pleasure barge. That section was cut for several reasons:
1) It had no real connection to the central plot. It felt tacked on. There have been some complaints about the Graul family feeling extraneous (complaints that I disagree with), but the Paradise section was even more "extraneous."
2) It was a significant portion of an adventure that was already about 20 pages too long. Cutting it basically let us present the rest of what Nick wrote more or less intact.
3) The map Nick provided for us for Paradise was illegible, and if we HAD decided to go forward with it, I would have either needed to have him redraw the map or (more likely) redraw it myself. And since both of us were, at the time, slammed with Pre-Gen-Con stuff, neither of us had time to redraw the map.
4) It extended the time the PCs spend in Turtleback Ferry, which I was already uncomfortable with since we didn't have a map for the town (see #3 above for why... only in this case, Nick never did a map in the first place). With no map of Turtleback Ferry and no time to generate one, every additional encounter that took place there made the village seem more important, and would thereby make the omission of a village map seem more and more like an error. (Alas, as the adventure reads now, I don't think we dodged this bullet.)
ANYway... don't take any of my comments above as slams against Nick (especially you, Nick!). The fact that the adventure was as cool as it was is a minor miracle to me, since as I mention in my foreword, Nick's life was EXTRAORDINARILY complicated at the time with moving and marriage and other writing assignments. He did a fantastic job getting me an adventure in that time. It breaks my heart a little that he wrote as much additional words that he did, though, since he probably could have used that time to sleep, eat, and relax...
And again, for those interested in seeing what Paradise, the floating collection of sinners and thugs, turned into, check out the section on Eel's End in Pathfinder #7.
EEL'S END!!! YES!!!
@Wasteland Knight: Yeah, the maturer parts that James chose to rework (and chose wisely!), will most likely never see the light of day. They really were too too sick and f@+~ed up really.
Glad you enjoyed the adventure though! Thanks for the kind words on it Wasteland Knight! Check out Carnival of Tears and Hangman's Noose if you want more terrifying stuff that I wrote recently.
Edge of Anarchy is not terrifying, but I did try to make it very awesome...here's hoping I succeeded!
Note: Even if I didn't, James will make it so! He always does!
One factor that may have played a part, was that there was a negative backlash to HMM. People complained. One customer threatened to no longer buy Logue products. I think there was a fear on the part of those folks that HMM would become representative of all future Paizo adventures (or in one case, Nick Logue adventures). Also, some customers felt they could not utilize the adventure in family friendly games.
These kinds of protests to content blow my mind. I remember when Dungeon did their sealed adults only modual for Scuttle Cove and people lost their mind about it. I say this because I just finished running Savage Tide. When I told my wife that Scuttle Cove was one of the settings, she dug through her stuff and produced the Original Adults only modual. What I noticed was the setting wasn't changed one single bit for Savage Tide, but because no one made a big deal about it, it went by unnoticed. Personally I love adventures having a more adult edge. I plan to run HMM as is even though one of my players is my 13 yr old niece. I'm sure she can handle it, I've seen some of the books she's read and movies she's watched.
Check out Carnival of Tears and Hangman's Noose if you want more terrifying stuff that I wrote recently.
Where can I find these, the name's aren't ringing a bell? By the way, I LOVE HMM. It's sick and twisted. I like that in a game.
1) It had no real connection to the central plot. It felt tacked on. There have been some complaints about the Graul family feeling extraneous (complaints that I disagree with), but the Paradise section was even more "extraneous."
When I saw this mention of the pleasure barge I really like the idea and decided to develop it for my own game. I didn't realize it was part of what had been cut. Something I was wondering about is if Paizo has considered doing Gamemaster Moduals that are Adults only? Gods know my players would eat them up!
If we ever DO tackle an even more mature adventure in Pathfinder, it'll be something new that we work on from the start to make an "R-rated" or "unrated" adventure. And judging by the vocal reaction to Hook Mountain, chances are good that we won't be trying something like this anytime soon. That said, I'd love to try it some day. As the author of Dungeon #95's "Porphyry House Horror," and as a fan of edgy, dark entertainment like Clive Barker & Stephen King books or J-horror or John Carpenter, etc., I do enjoy the darker side of things. It'll be more likely that if we try a darker adventure or product, though, that it'll be a stand-alone product and clearly marked as "For Mature Audiences Only" or some such.
James,
As one who had the privilege of running "Porphyry House Horror" and is now chomping at the bit to get my players back there in Savage Tide, I do hope you have the chance to produce some more adventures in this vein, either stand-alone or AP. I know it's not for everyone, but there are enough folks interested (methinks) that it would be viable. Just throwing in my two coppers and humble support.
Now if I could only get my hands on Ben Wooten's full pic of Tyralandi to add to my shrine of all things Scuttlecove - ah well... ;P
Your Friendly Neighborhood Dalesman
"Bringing Big D**n Justice to the Bad Guys Since 1369 DR"
Since no one else had made mention of it yet - for those of you who wish to see what kind of twisted stuff Nick can get up to in a non-mainstream envioronment - check out:
Many Paizo-boards regulars are a part of the on-going process, and it's a great way to get inside the nuts and bolts of adventure design !
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I actually ran a modified version of Porphyrry House for d20 Star Wars (Old Republic era), replacing the various shape-shifting/shifted hookers with Clawdites (changeling-style aliens). Much fun was had, especially in terms of the interesting ways the PCs (predominately Jedi) devised to smuggle lightsabers and other weapons into the brothel ...
With no map of Turtleback Ferry and no time to generate one, every additional encounter that took place there made the village seem more important, and would thereby make the omission of a village map seem more and more like an error. (Alas, as the adventure reads now, I don't think we dodged this bullet.)
And you would be correct! ;)