My PCs are not quite there yet, but they will be. I am pondering how this will play out. Between the effect of the Sihedron amulets and the effect of the rune giant Domination mindlinks, it seems apparent that Karzoug will know where the PCs are and what they are doing--either all the time, or at least a significant part of the time if they ditch the Sihedrons. The rune giant commanders in the lower city will too.
My player is a stickler for world logic. Therefore, I need to come up with an enemy response to knowledge of the PCs' presence that (a) makes sense and (b) does not result in an epic battle with hundreds of giants, lamias, etc. fairly early in the scenario. I think the PCs should lose that battle, but in any case I don't want to run it; too much work!
At the moment I think Karzoug still hopes to recruit the PCs, or at least to recruit their allies, so simply making everyone converge on their location won't be his immediate plan. At some point, though, the failure of this strategy will become apparent.
Saying "Karzoug doesn't care enough to deal with the PCs" seems to diminish his stature as a worthy opponent. He knows that they have runeforged weapons, after all. I don't like villains to be outright stupid or sloppy, though over-subtlety or blind spots are okay. In this case I think he expects the PCs to be in thrall to one sin or another--if not Greed, perhaps Wrath or Envy--and he's sure he can use this to manipulate them. He needs to replace Mokmurian....
(He is right; they are pretty deeply in thrall to Wrath. I am looking forward to the Champion of Wrath meeting his opposite number in the Upper City.)
I could really use a killer plan for that manipulation. The situation is that the PCs will arrive with a large force, mostly giants, which they will likely lose almost at once; then they will probably set themselves to the task of eliminating the rune giants so that they can reclaim their army. This gives Karzoug lots of time to try to turn them or put them to use. I just need a brilliant idea for *how*. (It doesn't have to succeed, but it has to be a credible try.)
Karzoug doesn't really have a serious enemy in the local area other than the PCs--if he did, I'd have him try to turn the PCs against that enemy.
Hmm. I wonder what would happen if the forces holding Xin-Shalast, rather than immediately attacking, welcomed the PCs with open arms. The PCs might think this was an error on their enemies' part and try to exploit it, thus setting themselves up for an awful surprise with regard to rune giants and domination. That might be *too* mean.
Anyway, ideas?
Mary
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I plan to have Karzoug tell the PCs that, should he perish, all his items and treasures will turn to ash, and so shall theirs. It is his last right as master transmuter the high poobah of greed. It’s of course a lie, but he can be terribly convincing.
So they either risk a severly pyrrhic victory or they leave him be, as fantastically rich men and women, laden with treasures he freely offers for their cooperation.
The Runelord of Greed should make bribery an artform. No need to fight at all ;)
I plan to have Karzoug tell the PCs that, should he perish, all his items and treasures will turn to ash, and so shall theirs. It is his last right as master transmuter the high poobah of greed. It’s of course a lie, but he can be terribly convincing.
So they either risk a severly pyrrhic victory or they leave him be, as fantastically rich men and women, laden with treasures he freely offers for their cooperation.
The Runelord of Greed should make bribery an artform. No need to fight at all ;)
Brilliant! Consider this idea stolen.
In any case, I was about to recommend that Karzoug (preferably in another guise), gets the PCs to deal with the invisibile undead creature in the caverns in order to gauge their abilities. Likewise, he will probably shore up defenses at his palace, while leaving the city relatively undefended (give the PCs a false sense of security and all that nonsense). The key word here is "relatively"
I plan to have Karzoug tell the PCs that, should he perish, all his items and treasures will turn to ash, and so shall theirs. It is his last right as master transmuter the high poobah of greed. It’s of course a lie, but he can be terribly convincing.
So they either risk a severly pyrrhic victory or they leave him be, as fantastically rich men and women, laden with treasures he freely offers for their cooperation.
The Runelord of Greed should make bribery an artform. No need to fight at all ;)
My PCs are (unusually for PCs) not greedy for wealth. Knowledge, on the other hand.... I wonder if there is some perfect piece of knowledge he could impart, with a sting in the tail of course. It's tough, though, because they know what Karzoug wants to accomplish and have little desire to live in Shalast Reborn, wealth or no wealth. And, of course, Karzoug's reputation for rewarding his servants is not exactly stellar. ("Those are the lies my enemies told of me," he protests. But I doubt they'll believe him. They saw Mokmurian die.)
He'll try the bribes first, but he's smart enough to see that they aren't working. --Unless the PCs play along. I can't predict whether they will or not. It'll be quite interesting if they do. Very tense, because they probably can't fool him forever.
I am thinking of replacing the contact via Sihendron amulets with an ability of Karzoug to speak to anyone who's in line of sight of some key Lower City tower--for some reason the image really appeals to me. Maybe he has the Sihedron amulet option too, but keeps it secret so that the PCs won't lose the amulets. He could then spring it at some key psychological moment. "You do realize that I have been privy to every one of your plans against me, don't you?" He would also like to throw in "And that one of you has been my agent all along?" if he possibly can....
If Karzoug were Wrath the party would be putty in his hands. If he were Lust or Envy or Gluttony he'd at least have a good shot at Aldern, who is a real bundle of sins. Greed is not so easy to use on this particular group. They didn't sell Vraxeris' secrets-of-immortality notes; they didn't even keep them in order to use them; they hid them at Windsong Abbey with strict orders to keep the Chelish from getting at them. They are clannish, insular, suspicious, and a real credit to their Varisian heritage.
Mary
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I hate to say it, but it really sounds like Karzoug's best plan would be to kill them. (And, being Greedy, take their stuff.) He does know their situation, does know their attitudes... he's not likely going to spend a lot of time trying to do the impossible. The PCs have gotten in his way a whole bunch of times by now. He shouldn't let them off easy.
That said, I'm really rather surprised that your player thinks the frontal assault is a good plan. I guess it depends on how you wrote the final scenes of Fortress and Sins, but it seems as though the PCs should realize that they are expected. Trying to just bash their way in, loud and somewhat blind, is going to produce the exact wrong result - and your AP reports haven't suggested that as their proclivity in the past. A little recon might go a very long way - they might see the problem with the rune giants for what it is, and/or make contact with Guykak (which would be very much up their alley, from what I've seen).
Maybe an NPC should suggest the subtle approach first?
That said, I'm really rather surprised that your player thinks the frontal assault is a good plan. I guess it depends on how you wrote the final scenes of Fortress and Sins, but it seems as though the PCs should realize that they are expected.
I ran the final scene of _Fortress_ as a recruitment attempt--meant as much to unsettle the PCs (might one of their number be tempted?) as to actually recruit them, though Karzoug certainly wouldn't hesitate to do so.
The final scene of _Sins_ has not happened yet. The PCs are busy collecting virtue tokens, being unwilling to use the sin tokens. So I don't know how they'll react. I should find out on Sunday. It won't reveal the Sihedron amulet problem, though.
Trying to just bash their way in, loud and somewhat blind, is going to produce the exact wrong result - and your AP reports haven't suggested that as their proclivity in the past. A little recon might go a very long way - they might see the problem with the rune giants for what it is, and/or make contact with Guykak (which would be very much up their alley, from what I've seen).
It's my impression that the PCs are trying hard to lose 120 assorted giants and 15 assorted wrathlings. They have been convinced since Jorgenfist that the giants will *not* disband quietly and go home, especially since their response to Jorgenfist involved raising up a giant highlord to rival Mokmurian. Their plan for a long time has been to use Xin-Shalast as a target for those giants, to protect the lowlands.
A force of 120 giants cannot sneak effectively. The PCs can, and probably will. It's all going to hinge on how those initial contacts work out.
However, having Karzoug aware of their every move at all times is a pretty serious detriment to the stealthy plans. The module has Karzoug squandering this advantage by using it too early, but if he doesn't, I'm concerned that no matter how stealthy the PCs are the outcome will be the same as the frontal assault. Honestly, it seems as though *any* exploration of Xin-Shalast by a PC party with a Sihedron amulet is likely to be lethal (doubly so for us, without teleport magic to use for escaping). I was wondering how other GMs meant to deal with this. The best PC plan by far is to avoid the city completely and teleport into the upper area (having somehow solved the air problem)--but what a waste of an interesting scenario!
Maybe an NPC should suggest the subtle approach first?
They've thought of it. At the moment the threat posed by their own giants looms larger in their minds than the threat posed by forces in Xin-Shalast--they think the city should be largely abandoned. (I wish I could have read #6 before running #4. They questioned the lamias, and not knowing any better, I may have given the wrong impression.)
They're smart folks, and will probably adapt successfully to the new situation--as long as their first contact isn't a snowballing all-out response. I just need to avoid that.
Mary
I plan to have Karzoug tell the PCs that, should he perish, all his items and treasures will turn to ash, and so shall theirs. It is his last right as master transmuter the high poobah of greed. It’s of course a lie, but he can be terribly convincing.
So they either risk a severly pyrrhic victory or they leave him be, as fantastically rich men and women, laden with treasures he freely offers for their cooperation.
The Runelord of Greed should make bribery an artform. No need to fight at all ;)
GREAT idea-I just bogarted it as well :)
I've decided to run an encounter when the PCs send out giantish scouts looking for the dwarf brothers' cabin. One set of giants will come back and say, "We've found it, come with us"--and lead the PCs to their new Rune Giant master. I think this fulfills the double goal of being a fight of reasonable size (I dread any combat involving the PCs' private army, for obvious reasons) and giving the PCs a clear heads-up about the Rune Giant problem. What they do from there is their own problem.
For the Sihedron amulets, I've settled on a plan--player of mine, don't read this!--
Rather than reveal what he can do, Karzoug will impersonate his dead predecessor and try to manipulate the PCs into removing the Denizens of Leng, under the guise of making it easier to get rid of Karzoug. I am pretty sure the PCs will never believe any ploy Karzoug could make as himself, but there is a reasonable chance that they'll ally with what they think is the previous Runelord's vengeful ghost.
This explains why Karzoug doesn't use his knowledge of their location to eliminate them at once, which is the outcome I really want to avoid. He'd rather get some use out of them first, and this offers the chance to eliminate a dubious ally (the denizens) without angering the other powers of Leng--since the ones doing the eliminating are clearly Karzoug's enemies.
Thanks for the ideas!
Mary
You can use Khalib. Yes, he's eager of the Karzoug position but he's too afraid of Karzaug displease with him. Perhaps Khalib could use the PCs against his master and reveal the PCs the sihedron problem.
I had the same problem with this part when I was preping the game (I haven't run it yet.) What I decided was that the Rune Weapons would make the PCs invisiable to Karzogs scrying, and then to explain to the PCs through an NPC that they need to disguise themselves going into the city or they will have to fight the whole army of giants. You're right, the set up of Karzog waiting for the PCs to show up is weak. After all, greed isn't just about bribery, it's also about holding on to what you have.
I found out later why the player didn't seem as concerned as I did: it turns out that his party could, in fact, fight the whole city of giants. (After four sessions we agreed to abstract any further PC/giant fights; they were taking forever.)
This always seems to happen to me in high-level modules; unless the NPCs happen to be designed to work against the PCs' specific tactics, they can't really cope. The PCs were really scared of Rune Giants until they had fought a couple of them, after which it was apparent that they weren't a serious threat unless you were adjacent to them, and it was always possible not to be.
Mary