Round 4: Who Got Your 3 Votes?


RPG Superstar™ 2008 General Discussion

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I'm still at a loss, but wanted to start the thread.

Christine has one for certain. I'm so very undecided on the others.


Not to play spoilsport but I'd just like to bring up the notion that, at this point in the competition, it may not necessarily be a good thing to publicly declare who you're voting for.

Not to besmirch anyone's honor, good intentions or intelligence, but I'd worry that having a list of who's getting which votes may subconsciously influence later voters.

It wasn't such an issue in my mind with earlier rounds, since there were more candidates and submissions...but we're down to the final 8, then 6, then 4. And I'd be willing to wager a kobold or two that, in this round, the difference between the 6th and 7th spots will be under 15 votes.

Edit: To wit (and I'm sorry to call you out, friend), there's already a thread where someone is asking for help deciding his third vote. It could be in jest, it could be serious, but I think it backs me up a little on what I'm trying to say. And to the poster of that thread, if you can't honestly choose a #3, just stick with the first two.

For what it's worth, I'm voting for:

Spoiler:
What? You thought I was actually going to tell you?

RPG Superstar 2008 Top 16 , Marathon Voter Season 6 aka Core

Since it seems to be tradition..
Even after a cursory glance it seemed obvious to me. Really the only three that struck me as even completing the requirements of the round.

In the bleak midwinter
The Darkblight
Born of Lightning

Marathon Voter Season 6, Dedicated Voter Season 7, Marathon Voter Season 8, Star Voter Season 9 aka Clouds Without Water

propeliea wrote:

I'm still at a loss, but wanted to start the thread.

Christine has one for certain. I'm so very undecided on the others.

Christine is absolutely certain.

Boomer is likely, but I really do need to set aside some time to properly read his entry. I did get a bit lost, though I loved the terrain I was lost in.

Vote 3 is more or less up for grabs. I'll need a second pass.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32 , Dedicated Voter Season 6, Star Voter Season 7, Dedicated Voter Season 8, Star Voter Season 9 aka SmiloDan

Christine's Mind Machine, the Bleak Winter (favorite!), and DarkBlight.


Called out? Hardly. Though I simply don't agree with the concerns of your stance.

Is it possible the thread influences votes? Absolutely. Is that a bad thing? I doubt it given the community nature of the contest. Commentary should drive the contest. Polling just adds another element, and one that I've found useful and interesting.

Plus, it's been a popular discussion driver.

I'm still undecided on my other two, but will likely make a choice by Sunday.

Dark Archive Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4

Core wrote:

Since it seems to be tradition..

Even after a cursory glance it seemed obvious to me. Really the only three that struck me as even completing the requirements of the round.

In the bleak midwinter
The Darkblight
Born of Lightning

Uh . . . well, I'd like to think that I completed the "the requirements of the round", at least - even if I don't have your vote.

*grin*

Sovereign Court RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32 , Star Voter Season 6 aka TerraNova

Even though i may be running the risk of influencing the later voters (though i doubt i am that influential)

Mind the Machine
Born of Lightening
Darkblight

In more detail:

* Mind the Machine just inspired me, the complexity Golem may be a bit over the top, even for high-level groups, but it's just so... wonky, but at the same time the over the top intelligence wizard would come up with. Also, the template just rocks on toast. Extra credit for the idea of the "Use it tonight" sections, even though they could have been stronger themselves.

* Darkblight just had it all. Tight theme, competent execution, and good compatibility with about any published scenario, maybe except for Dark Sun. Really something you might just use tonight - and not just as as singular monster.

* Born of Lightening won out after a long, protracted battle with the bleak midwinter and the moving hunger. Really, it could have gone each way, with all offerings having something that made them voteworthy. In the end, it was the Squallherds "become lightening" ability - its visuals just tingle me.

RPG Superstar 2013 Top 16 , Marathon Voter Season 6, Marathon Voter Season 7, Marathon Voter Season 8, Dedicated Voter Season 9 aka Darkjoy

I've just voted for the following three:
-In the bleak midwinter
-Savagery, Sorrow and Shame
-The Darkblight

I am glad that this round there was more choice for me to choose from, last round I only voted for 2.

I don't take a look at past accomplishments when I vote, but I do know that my voting isn't consistent which saddens me because I feel that a RPG superstar should be able to WOW me every round....

(on a side note: every time a contestant has gotten two votes from me in a row they've been cut.....so midwinter and darkblight you should watch your backs)

Dark Archive

What SmiloDan said. I'm a sheep, I voted exactly what he voted, 'cause of the peer pressure. (Although I may have voted before him.) Or maybe it was the bribes... Just kidding, we totally *didn't* get beer and pizza hand-delivered by Hooters waitresses.

That German beer is good, btw. Not that I'd know. Nothing to see here!

RPG Superstar 2008 Top 16 , Marathon Voter Season 6 aka Core

thatboomerkid wrote:

Uh . . . well, I'd like to think that I completed the "the requirements of the round", at least - even if I don't have your vote.

*grin*

The purpose of this round was to bring to the table cool monsters and your entry didn't do it for me. Far too muddled to wade through to get a clear idea of the theme and the so-so creatures. Granted your atmosphere is great but this is not a novel. I think The Darkblight nailed this round, perhaps take a look at that one keep an open mind on the differences between it and yours.

Anyhow, I prefer to talk about specific entries until after voting when you can properly back-hand me :P I'll post my own fan-entry later on and you can dig into that if you wish, heh. Some folks liked your entry so I think you have a fair chance to move on this round - force of personality giving you a definite push.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32 , Dedicated Voter Season 6, Star Voter Season 7, Dedicated Voter Season 8, Star Voter Season 9 aka SmiloDan

Yeah, I have a good idea of what I'm going to post as a fan-response/wannabe Superstar entry for the theme monsters. Hint: hags.


I've only read three of them so far, so it will be a while before I chime in.

With all due respect to A Grave Man, if presidential primary elections can have polls that are as completely off-base as the NH ones were, why are you concerned with our little exercise here?

EXIT POLLS wrote:

07 Total Respondents

03 Total Floaters
##########
05 Mind the Machine
05 The Darkblight
04 In the Bleak Midwinter
02 Born of Lightning
01 Kakuen-Taka, The Hunger that Moves
01 Savagery, Sorrow and Shame
~~~~~~~~~~
00 Scared to Undeath
00 The Ooze Imperium

Spoiler:
03 Total Floaters

##########
02 Propeliea
01 Clouds Without Water

RPG Superstar 2009 Top 16 aka Clandestine

The first three entries. Mind the Machine, The Hunger that Moves, In the Bleak Winter.

Dark Archive

Core wrote:
Some folks liked your entry so I think you have a fair chance to move on this round - force of personality giving you a definite push.

I suspect that Boomer is benefitting from the fact that a larger-than-normal percentage of voters (most definitely including myself) are *also* quite comfortable with designing their own stuff, or prone to modifying anything they read in even official products to better suit their own moods. As a result, we are less likely to peer minutely at mechanical details and more likely to look at something evocative and say, 'Wow! I'm gonna use that!' and likely go on to use the concept with different mechanics anyway...

He's the best example of this sort of thing, but I've seen a few entries fly by that some relatively inexperienced DM who flipped open to that page might have a devilish time trying to actually use as written.

I'm not sure if that's something that can be weighted for, vote wise. By it's nature, this sort of contest attracts people who are tinkerers at heart and likely to favor 'evocative' over 'ease of use.'

Witness the last round, where several villains seemed to lose some points for being 'standard fare,' such as the Lizardfolk Druid.

This might be a generalization, but it seems to me that the best writers of mechanically interesting and tactically sound creatures (and spells, and rules) tend to *not* be the same writers who can generate the plot hooks and descriptive text that makes the reader shudder in delight at their utter coolness. I think they use different sides of the brain. :)

Owner - House of Books and Games LLC , Marathon Voter Season 6, Star Voter Season 7

Voting in this round is going to be killer. There isn't a single one of the entries that I've written off, and in every other round, I was able to dismiss at least half of them out of hand.

Man.


Well, I want another vote for the first time in the contest.

For now, I'm doing it this way:

Machine
Lightning
Midwinter

Owner - House of Books and Games LLC , Marathon Voter Season 6, Star Voter Season 7

Set wrote:
I suspect that Boomer is benefitting from the fact that a larger-than-normal percentage of voters (most definitely including myself) are *also* quite comfortable with designing their own stuff, or prone to modifying anything they read in even official products to better suit their own moods. As a result, we are less likely to peer minutely at mechanical details and more likely to look at something evocative and say, 'Wow! I'm gonna use that!' and likely go on to use the concept with different mechanics anyway...

Absolutely ... but given how much work it is for me to keep ahead of my PCs (I have plot for the next 5 years, it's the CR40 encounters that are killing me), if I have to spend an hour figuring out what the heck is going on with something, I've already spent 4 times the time I wanted to.

Says the person who spent an hour and a half yesterday copying the library contents post from dicefreaks so that I'd have 500 random book names.

sigh

But hey, any of you guys want a CR 35 Aspect of Dagon to match the SOTA Dagon figure (Look here or here) feel free to drop me a line :)


Although I am old-fashioned enough to have wanted to see some dragons as monsters...updated to be the horrors of today by belching environmental catastrophes... I will be voting for

Scared to Undeath
Mind the Machine

Owner - House of Books and Games LLC , Marathon Voter Season 6, Star Voter Season 7

Okay, Boomer and Christine are in for me.

But I keep flip-flopping on the third.

Argh.

Contributor

Mind the Machine, In the Bleak Midwinter, Born of Lightning


Uh oh, should I feel justified that my votes match an assistant editor--or am I loosing hold of my opportunity to embrace entries that push the envelope?

Internal crisis time. ;)

Dark Archive Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4

Core wrote:
Granted your atmosphere is great but this is not a novel. I think The Darkblight nailed this round, perhaps take a look at that one keep an open mind on the differences between it and yours.

Well said!

For the record: I assure everyone here that I am studying, have studied, and will further study ALL of the other entries, especially "Mind the Machine", "The Darkblight" and "In the bleak midwinter" - fantastic submissions that captured my attention, sparked my interest, and really inspired Judge and voter acclaim.

While I am proud of my monsters, I cannot, in good faith, argue that my submission this round was either the best work or even MY best work - so I only hope to learn both from the work of my fellow contestants and from the feedback of my friendly, wonderful critics at Paizo.

Again, I thank everyone here!


Christine Schneider's Mind the Machine
Neil McClean's Savagery, Sorrow, and Shame
Russell Taylor's Darkblight

Scarab Sages

Adventure Path Charter Subscriber

Christine's Mind the Machine
Russell's The Darkblight
Jason's In the bleak midwinter


Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path Subscriber
Mactaka wrote:

Christine's Mind the Machine

Russell's The Darkblight
Jason's In the bleak midwinter

Ditto. I wavered on my third vote, but finally decided on Christine.


I voted for midwinter, ooze and darkblight.

Jason Nelson—In the bleak midwinter
Stuck to a theme and showed strength of concept, tight mechanics and great atmosphere. The wilderness theme and the strong visuals sealed the deal.

Rob McCreary—The Ooze Imperium
This fills a definite role. It explains the presence of oozes and slimes in the game worlds. The brain slimes have a solid motivation for their actions. The palanquin-brain combination is truly original and obvious in hindsight. The sheer volume of powers and the complexity and lack of balance did not deter me from liking this on a visceral level. I thought this was wonderful and elegant. The fact that it totally breaks the CR system to have a weak CR 6 overlord make a CR 15 or so minion, is more a failing of the system than a failing of these monsters.

Russell Taylor—The Darkblight
Just perfect.

I also found something to like in each of the others.
Here are some rationalisations of my utterly biased and subjective voting .
Christine Schneider—Mind the Machine
The best concept of the round. Christine has her votes though and I decided to choose ooze. I just cannot see myself using the mechanics she provided for her concepts. The concepts and execution seemed divorced from each other.

Clinton Boomer—Kakuen-Taka, The Hunger that Moves
What Boomer makes in vigour and creativity, he squanders in imprecision.
His entries are badly laid out and he drowns them in cheese. I think he is awesome, but needs to focus more on the needs of his audience and less on his hard sell. I respect his output of ideas and wish he would clothe them better in tight structure and meaningful choices. Too rich and not filling enough. Icing without enough cake.

Joe Outzen—Born of Lightning
This entry, to my mind was the opposite of Boomer's. The thunderstruck template is workmanlike and solid but lacks the electric jolt of excitement. The cloud golem should have sold itself on the visuals, but was confusingly described. The squallherds were also jotted down in a perfunctory, fill in the dots way.

Joseph Yerger—Scared to Undeath
Dreadful names again. A good idea ruined by inconsistent and annoying writing. An inability to penetrate to the core of the concept and find the gem that makes it shine. A clumsy mind at play.

Neil McClean—Savagery, Sorrow and Shame
A confusing mess of contradictions. I really like the idea of the creature that manufactures its own nemesis through it's guilt. An ogre with pet vermin trying to get itself killed. It just didn't gel for me and was confusing and messy. Mechanically sound but awkward and indecisive.

And I really miss Samuel Kisko and James MacKenzie

Marathon Voter Season 6, Dedicated Voter Season 7, Marathon Voter Season 8, Star Voter Season 9 aka Clouds Without Water

Christine
...
lots of space
...
Boomer
Rob

The third slot was a squeaker, with Joe coming *that* close. Both of them had a less-than-great filler monster (cloud golem and electric ooze), and I had some doubts about the judgment that allows for 13 abilities on one monster. But in the end, the 2 that I liked in the ooze were better than the 2 I liked in the storms.

That said, the Thunderstruck are still going to be the widest used monsters of this round.

As an aside, for me Neil has been the one that's been consistently "almost there" in every round. I used a vote in an eariler round just to express my desire he sticks around, but I have too few votes for that this round. Just wanted to say Well Done.


Jason, Rob, and Russ tagged my votes.


There were two I loved in this round (Joe's Born of Lightning & Jason's Bleak Midwinter) and two I didn't like at all (Joseph's Scared to Undeath & Rob's Ooze Imperium*), leaving a four-way tie for my final vote... hrmm :-/

Neil's blood theme didn't really grab me, and Clinton's lacked the crisp functional writing I look for in a monster entry. Which narrows it down to just Christine & Russell.

I enjoy constructs (used to love the Modrons in Planescape, and took an instant shine to the Warforged in Eberron) but I can't see myself using any of Christine's monsters as written. The Complexity Golem seems too tough, the Dungeon Core too weak, and I generally hate fiddling around w/ templates.

On the other hand, Russell's anti-dryads seem a little tame. The "evil trees" schtick has been done by everyone from the Wizard of Oz to the Order of the Stick. Statswise, though, his monsters seem solidly designed.

So I'm torn. I think I'll have to go back to their previous entries as a tie-breaker, and in that case I'll definitely have to go with Russ here. Seskadrin was a great follow-up on a good setting writeup, and the Gloves of Force Shaping were pretty cool too. I'd love to see all of this wrapped up into a Eluraelon sourcebook someday.

So: Joe, Jason & Russ it is.

(*-but hang in there Rob, I really dug your previous entries)


And thanks to Paizo for running this great contest, it's really shaping up nicely. In fact, it just inspired me to post on your forum for the first time ever.


Oh deary me, I am doing the same thing I did last round: Vote for Christine and two people I haven't voted before.
In this round Darkblight and Bleak Midwinter rocked. The Machine comes third. Rest of them were rather cool too...solid round with great people, which shows how my votes have split in different rounds (of Top 8, the only person I haven't voted so far is Clinton...)

Owner - House of Books and Games LLC , Marathon Voter Season 6, Star Voter Season 7

Taliesin Hoyle wrote:
... And I really miss Samuel Kisko and James MacKenzie

Hear! Hear!!

Yeah, I was really sorry to see that Samuel didn't make it. Hope he does it again next year.


I thought Christine's was by far the most inventive, so she gets one. The faults here can be fixed with one swipe of an editor's pen (up the CR or tone down the attack of the complexity golem), but what an editor can't do is come up with a fresh idea, which she did!

Boomer's is good too - sure, it's not like an orc, where you'd use it all the time, but as a one-off set of monsters for a cool scenario, you can't beat it. Got my second vote.

For my third vote I was torn between Jason's "Bleak Midwinter" and Russ's "Darkblight." I finally went with "Bleak Midwinter" because I just got more into the flavor of those guys and they seemed a little more distinctive/unique.

It's not just looking for "wow factor" because this is a competition - I am desperate for new monsters & ideas that are different from the huge loads of 1e/2e/3e stuff I already have. I'm so sick of "let's go through the periodic table and come up with a new golem!" Another undead, slightly different. Another demon, slightly different. Arrrgh! The last three 3.5e Monster Manuals have made me want to KILL!

Whew. Sorry about that, got a little carried away. Anyway, good job to all the contestants, but to me those three entries were superdy duper!


After some thought my 3 votes this round went to:

Hunger
Ooze
Savagery

EXIT POLLS wrote:

21 Total Respondents

##########
15 Mind the Machine
15 In the Bleak Midwinter
13 The Darkblight
05 Born of Lightning
05 Kakuen-Taka, The Hunger that Moves
04 The Ooze Imperium
~~~~~~~~~~
03 Savagery, Sorrow and Shame
01 Scared to Undeath

You can safely ignore everything below here. I just finally got tired of fighting with the reply button and it's habit of omitting spoiler text.

Bookeeping wrote:

02 Total Floaters

##########
01 Andriale (machine, undeath, ???)
01 Gbonehead (machine, hunger, ???)


A Grave Man wrote:

Edit: To wit (and I'm sorry to call you out, friend), there's already a thread where someone is asking for help deciding his third vote. It could be in jest, it could be serious, but I think it backs me up a little on what I'm trying to say. And to the poster of that thread, if you can't honestly choose a #3, just stick with the first two.

I'm called out! I just don't care. Woooooooooo!

On a more serious note, I would hope that, say, a senior editor deciding on entries for a monster book would have ones he loves but would have some he's marginal on, that he'd ask other folks about to see if they saw something he didn't about them....

Worrying about the "purity" of the vote is a little self defeating. Some people are taking earlier entries into account, others aren't. Some people are taking gender, or location, or looking good wearing nothing but belts into account, and others aren't. Embrace the truth of democracy...


Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path Subscriber
Ernest Mueller wrote:


or looking good wearing nothing but belts into account,

That would likely put almost everyone out of the running. ;)

Dark Archive

Ernest Mueller wrote:
Worrying about the "purity" of the vote is a little self defeating. Some people are taking earlier entries into account, others aren't. Some people are taking gender, or location, or looking good wearing nothing but belts into account, and others aren't. Embrace the truth of democracy...

Crud, I missed the bondage-wear competition.

Oh wait, most of 'em are dudes. Woot! I missed the bondage-wear competition!

Owner - House of Books and Games LLC , Marathon Voter Season 6, Star Voter Season 7

Ernest Mueller wrote:

I thought Christine's was by far the most inventive, so she gets one. The faults here can be fixed with one swipe of an editor's pen (up the CR or tone down the attack of the complexity golem), but what an editor can't do is come up with a fresh idea, which she did!

Boomer's is good too - sure, it's not like an orc, where you'd use it all the time, but as a one-off set of monsters for a cool scenario, you can't beat it. Got my second vote.

For my third vote I was torn between Jason's "Bleak Midwinter" and Russ's "Darkblight." I finally went with "Bleak Midwinter" because I just got more into the flavor of those guys and they seemed a little more distinctive/unique.

Wow. Get out of my head, dude.

Except that in the end I finally went with Darkblight. And the more I read it the more it grows on me. None of the individual monsters are incredible by themselves, but the whole package is perfectly put together - the creatures work really well individually or as a group.

Ernest Mueller wrote:
It's not just looking for "wow factor" because this is a competition - I am desperate for new monsters & ideas that are different from the huge loads of 1e/2e/3e stuff I already have. I'm so sick of "let's go through the periodic table and come up with a new golem!" Another undead, slightly different. Another demon, slightly different. Arrrgh! The last three 3.5e Monster Manuals have made me want to KILL!

Right with you there.


Set wrote:
Ernest Mueller wrote:
Worrying about the "purity" of the vote is a little self defeating. Some people are taking earlier entries into account, others aren't. Some people are taking gender, or location, or looking good wearing nothing but belts into account, and others aren't. Embrace the truth of democracy...

Crud, I missed the bondage-wear competition.

Oh wait, most of 'em are dudes. Woot! I missed the bondage-wear competition!

Apparently many of you have not seen the D&D PSAs that Boomer does.

http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=A28CC7D10659B703

He plays Hennet the Sorcerer, who does indeed wear only belts.

Grand Lodge Dedicated Voter Season 6, Star Voter Season 7, Dedicated Voter Season 8

I didn't really make a shortlist or post a lot of comments this time. There was only one entry that I excluded straight away, but by the time I finished reading, it was quite obvious which were the stand-out entries.

In the bleak midwinter
Savagery, sorrow and shame
The Darkblight

The Exchange

Darkblight, born of lightning and mind over machine for me.

Cheers and well done contestants, this round was one of the best for quality work I felt.

Dark Archive Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4

Ernest Mueller wrote:


Apparently many of you have not seen the D&D PSAs that Boomer does.

The D&D PSAs!

He plays Hennet the Sorcerer, who does indeed wear only belts.

Sir, I thank thee for the plug.

Hilariously, I'm headed to an Anime Convention today with the girlfriend, where I'll be cosplaying as Pazuzu from the LonelyMal videos - those belts are just a LITTLE too cold for January weather, especially if I need to step outside for a smoke.

- the Boom,
1/3 of the CreativeJuices Team,
Writer and Producer,
Player of Hennet, Blackrazor and Pazuzu

Liberty's Edge RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16 , Star Voter Season 6, Star Voter Season 7, Star Voter Season 8, Star Voter Season 9 aka JoelF847

My three votes go to:

Mind the Machine
The Ooze Imperium
The Darkblight

Owner - House of Books and Games LLC , Marathon Voter Season 6, Star Voter Season 7

For the record, my votes went to:

Kakuen-Taka, The Hunger that Moves
Mind the Machine
The Darkblight

Note that they're very different. I think The Darkblight was the most solid entry, but Kakuen-Taka was the coolest (by a hair) and that Mind the Machine was the most inventive and also very cool.

From a game mechanics standpoint, the three varied wildly. I find it amusing that many took the Ooze Imperium's brain ooze to task for having 13 abilities (that weren't really 13 different abilities), but didn't have the same complaints about The Hunger that Moves, which felt like many more even though I suspect it was far less.

Grand Lodge

1. Christine Schneider—Mind the Machine
2. Russell Taylor—The Darkblight
3. Joe Outzen—Born of Lightning
4. Rob McCreary—The Ooze Imperium
5. Jason Nelson—In the bleak midwinter
6. Clinton Boomer—Kakuen-Taka, The Hunger that Moves
7. Neil McClean—Savagery, Sorrow and Shame
8. Joseph Yerger—Scared to Undeath

Now I might change my mind about giving a vote to Rob based on previous performance over Joe. I have a bit of time left.

Scarab Sages RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32 aka KissMeDarkly

Here's how I voted:

Russell Taylor — The Darkblight (Could be useful as I'm working on an idea for a fey heavy campaign.)
Joe Outzen — Born of Lightning (SHAZAM!)
Jason Nelson — In the bleak midwinter (Very evocative. For me at least.)


Looks like it's about time to update!

There's been a little jockeying for the pole position but there seems to be a very clear distinction between the top three and everyone else.

EXIT POLLS wrote:

26 Total Respondents

##########
19 The Darkblight
18 Mind the Machine
17 In the Bleak Midwinter
08 Born of Lightning
05 Kakuen-Taka, The Hunger that Moves
05 The Ooze Imperium
~~~~~~~~~~
04 Savagery, Sorrow and Shame
01 Scared to Undeath
Bookeeping wrote:

01 Total Floaters

##########
01 Andriale (machine, undeath, ???)


So, it all suggests that the vital contest is between Hunger, Imperium, and SSS for 5th through 6th place.

Sad to be out of that battle, but I'm not changing a vote to get involved.


I voted from Darkblight,
In the Bleak Midwinter, and
Born of Lightning.

For me are the most immediately usable, and require the least amount of extra work from me to actually fit into my campaign. That's what i want from a Monster Entry.

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