Make Whole and reparing ships (spoilers)


Savage Tide Adventure Path


It's been a while since I've posted, but happy to say that my STAP campaign is going well. We are on SWW, they have just reached Journey's End. They are scared, which is really nice. :)

My question is about the spell Make Whole and how it works on repairing damaged hull sections of a ship. According to a strict reading of the spell, it would repair one hull section/caster level. Here is the spell, courtesy of the SRD:

Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Target: One object of up to 10 cu. ft./ level

This spell functions like mending, except that make whole completely repairs an object made of any substance, even one with multiple breaks, to be as strong as new. The spell does not restore the magical abilities of a broken magic item made whole, and it cannot mend broken magic rods, staffs, or wands. The spell does not repair items that have been warped, burned, disintegrated, ground to powder, melted, or vaporized, nor does it affect creatures (including constructs).

Stupidly, this is how I told my PC's that it would work. Then I realized that I had created quite a conondrum for the end of SWW/beginning of HTBM. If all they have to do is cast a few Make Whole spells, then they would just continue on sailing to Farshore and skip Here There be Monsters.

So my question is: how does Make Whole work with regards to reparing ships? Stormwrack is silent on this issue.

Sovereign Court

Well, regardless of the spells efficiency, the ship has run aground and should require an impressive STR check (or another ship) to get it back in the water. As to the spell itself, I believe that repairs damage, but when a ship sinks the hull sections are destroyed. Destroyed means there's nothing left to repair.

At least that's how I see it.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

well, the spell will repair damage if the original material is still around and in usable condition.

With a ship running agroundm and then being tossed about in the breakers, a lot of planking and superstructure will get torn off by the churning waves, then swept off. This will be especially true for the caulking, hemp/oakum and tar filling the seams between hull planking to make the ship (almost) watertight and seaworthy. If copper hull-plating had been mounted (depends upon your degree of realism-accuracy and the development level of the campaign - it wasn't around in the 15th century, but became pretty common in the 17th century AD ), that will most likely have been torn away, too.

Protruding structures like, the bowspit, yards, the rudder and tiller, the steering wheel, deck-gratings, the catheads, capstan (and its bars) etc etc.... all possibly smashed or torn off. Oh, what about the sails.....

The "Sea Wyvern" will also likely be filled with tons of water, lying helplessly on its side and depending upon the nature of your final reef be partially sunk into sandy shoal (lots of digging) or wedged between sharp coral ridges.

Enough hassles to not be overcome easily even with "Make Whole" ?

You might also consider a "Craft - shipwright" roll (or several) to have the character know what actually needs to be made whole into what shape and what configuration (and enable functionality ). DC around 15, I would say, to know what things are important and what things actually have to be "loose" or appearantly broken


vikingson wrote:
well, the spell will repair damage if the original material is still around and in usable condition.

I'm curious. Where did you get this provision from? It isn't in the Make Whole (SRD) description, nor in the Mending (SRD) description.


I don't feel like doing the math right now, but the hull is one very large object. I would think that they are not even close to high enough level to Make Whole the hull. Boat's like 40 feet long by 20 feet wide by 20 feet deep (or something along those lines). So it's 16000 cubic feet, maybe half that since it comes to a point at the bottom. But at 10 cubic feet per level your not even close to making it whole.

Now if you say there is a lot of dead space in that calculation your getting into some difficult areas then. What pieces constitute the hull? Just the outside planks? The rib pieces? See it gets complicated. What it comes done to is that Make Whole is for relatively small objects. If it could fix a ship no ship wouydl sail without a 3rd level cleric.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Disenchanter wrote:
vikingson wrote:
well, the spell will repair damage if the original material is still around and in usable condition.
I'm curious. Where did you get this provision from? It isn't in the Make Whole (SRD) description, nor in the Mending (SRD) description.

that is not a provision - but a logical conclusion from the "if not list" in the SRD spell description.

"....that have been warped, burned, disintegrated, ground to powder, melted, or vaporized"

In all of these cases the original material is now in no condition to fulfill its original function anymore or simply gone. Opposed to - setting together all the shards from a broken vase or reattaching a lock to the door it got battered out off.

And given, that "Make Whole" as a second level divine spell has far less magical power than "Minor Creation", "Major Creation" and "Fabricate", I consider it highly unlikely that it will produce raw or pre-shaped materials to replace any substance lost, especially not instantaneously (as opposed to temporarily or even "permanent"ly), if the higher level magics are hard pressed to do, plus requiring skill checks for an adequate result

Plus, if you intend to get all 'rules lawyerly' , I might like to point out, that a ship is one single large 'object', and most definitely exceeds the spell's limit of 10 cubic feet per level.... hence, i t cannotbe repaired through the spell in the first place

And a hole in a vessel's hull is not similar to a puncture or rip in a cloak....


Wow...

Looks like someone pissed in Vikingson's cheerios yesterday...

Let me start with the "if not list," as you call it.

To me, and you are welcome to you own opinion, that list clearly states that Make Whole can not repair objects that have been altered beyond repair. And if you note, whether it was the intention or not, the "if not list" does not refer to part of the item, but the whole item.

And if you want to "get logical" with Make Whole, then there is several instances when it simply won't work - despite it's description. It can fully repair any object, of any substance. That would include a shattered vase... ... ... Too bad parts of it are effectively "ground into powder." So I guess it would fail then? Or maybe repair the vase, but not make it whole?

And frankly, you can take your "rules lawyery" and shove it.

I don't give a dead rat's ass if the spell can repair a ship.

I was curious which orifice you were spouting your "advice" from.

I would suggest sticking it back up there if this is how you react to some one asking a question.

Sovereign Court

Disenchanter wrote:

Wow...

Looks like someone pissed in Vikingson's cheerios yesterday...

I didn't detect anything snarly in Vikingson's post. You asked for clarification and he explained how he deducted his ruling, perhaps you read too much into it, but his responce seemed harmless. I do think your reply was very rude though. By all means disagree if you like, but please let's try to stay civil.

The Exchange RPG Superstar 2010 Top 32

I thought he was being amusing - though I always read stuff in quotes with an Ace Ventura voice.

Still, like Guy said - nothing that invited that response.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

@Disenchanter
thanks, I leave cheerios for those with an inane level of insecurity and hair-trigger temper.
If I ever go into "sarcastic" or "abrasive" mode, you will know instantly know it by the heatwave emanating from the screen, and the fact that the PG-13 standards of this board run for cover, screaming.
But this was "let me explain my reasoning to you" mode - the clients I use it on usually find it helpful.

In the meantime, feel free to invest some skill points in "Sense Motive" or get a luck re-roll for those rolls of "1" on your Diplomacy checks.


While I think Disenchanter may have gone a little over board I don't think that the term "rules lawyery" comes across in the kindest manner.

The Exchange

I took an entirely different tack on this spell than anyone else here seems to have.

I didn't see make whole affecting a given "hull section" of a ship, because that's an abstract game mechanic. I saw it affecting a single plank of wood that would make up part of several hull sections.

Therefore you'd need a seperate make whole spell for each piece of wood that was taken to make up the hull, and was therefore essentially useless in terms of repairing the damage.

I did allow the use of a "Make Whole" spell to affect the PC's carpentry roll later when they actually went about repairing the damage though...I think by +2, as it would have if someone had successfully assisted on the skill check.


I personally would likely allow either interpretation:
1) If you have a high enough caster level to affect the entire ship (i.e. higher than is possible for a party going through this adventure), then you could possibly repair entirely missing sections of the ship. Note that empty cargo areas and such still contribute to the ship's cubic feet displacement.
2) If you do not have that high of a caster level, then you can repair smaller bits (but not bits that are entire missing or destroyed). I believe that when the ship is eventually repaired (in the next adventure) the spell can be used to provide minor bonuses to the daily repair rolls.

However, either of these interpretations would still not derail the adventure.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

caster level 20 x 10 cubic feet/caster level = 200 cubic feet.... that is a 20' x 10' x 1' thick slab of wood.

By the map, the "Sea Wyvern" has a length of roughly 90', a width (midships) of 30'+ and with four decks, at least 24'+ of horizontal extend for the hull (!) alone - and I would guesstimate 30'+ for the hull
90'x 20' (average width) x 25' = app. 44000 cubic feet..... Which would mean a pretty powerful cleric....(like level 4400.... wonder why that guy needs a diety at all =) ) even if one only goes by the sheer volume of matter to be affected.

"Raise from the deep" (SC) might (depending upon one's GM's penchant for realism) prove a more effective way to keep/get the "Wyvern" floating, but that is a highly specialised spell, and I would feel a certain degree of suspicion if a 7th or 8th level wizard would have picked it without some prior knowledge in the STAP. Never actually have seen it chosen anywhere.
And it wouldn't really help with any damage that does not cause immediate sinking of the vessel anyway.

There was a fairly detailed thread-debate about it some months back, IIRC


vikingson wrote:


"Raise from the deep" (SC) might (depending upon one's GM's penchant for realism) prove a more effective way to keep/get the "Wyvern" floating, but that is a highly specialised spell, and I would feel a certain degree of suspicion if a 7th or 8th level wizard would have picked it without some prior knowledge in the STAP. Never actually have seen it chosen anywhere.

I believe there was a thread a while back about someone using that spell and it's affect on the AP.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Chris P wrote:


I believe there was a thread a while back about someone using that spell and it's affect on the AP.

As I wrote - I see we agree on that occurence.

BTW - when I wrote "I have never seen anyone pick it" I meant "seen it first hand myself or witnessed by a person I know personally ".


Okay. I'll bite. I'll describe where all my fury came from. But due to it's length, and the fact it is well off topic, I'll put it behind a spoiler tag.

Spoiler:
I had asked where vikingson had gotten a ruling he was presenting to others, linking to the 3.5 SRD as my source, because it could have simply been a hold over from the PHB that didn't make it into the SRD or a hold over from 3rd Edition.

vikingson wrote:
that is not a provision

Immediately sets an argumentative tone. Especially since Dictionary.com confirms that it is, indeed, a provision. But by itself, I wouldn't have even noticed.

vikingson wrote:
but a logical conclusion from the "if not list" in the SRD spell description.

"Logical" wasn't required in the sentence, unless Vikingson was being argumentative (and pre-supporting his/her stance) or suggesting that I was being illogical. Again, by itself, it wouldn't have even caught my attention.

vikingson wrote:
"....that have been warped, burned, disintegrated, ground to powder, melted, or vaporized"

Quotinq a source that I linked to in my question. After stating the section of the source to be used. From a very short source. By now, this is downright insulting. At it's best, it suggests that I didn't read the site I linked. At it's worst it suggests that I am incapable of reading the site I linked.

Again, by itself, wouldn't have struck a nerve.

vikingson wrote:

In all of these cases the original material is now in no condition to fulfill its original function anymore or simply gone. Opposed to - setting together all the shards from a broken vase or reattaching a lock to the door it got battered out off.

And given, that "Make Whole" as a second level divine spell has far less magical power than "Minor Creation", "Major Creation" and "Fabricate", I consider it highly unlikely that it will produce raw or pre-shaped materials to replace any substance lost, especially not instantaneously (as opposed to temporarily or even "permanent"ly), if the higher level magics are hard pressed to do, plus requiring skill checks for an adequate result

A series of argumentative points, that have no business in a simple reply to a post asking "where did you get that?" This would have caught my attention, even if this had been the only "transgression."

vikingson wrote:
Plus, if you intend to get all 'rules lawyerly'

If I intend to get "rules Lawyery?" All I did was ask where a ruling came from. I neither asked for it to be defended, or explained. I just asked for the source.

On top of that, at this point, the only one getting "rules lawyery" is vikingson. And it continues the entire argumentative, snide, and condescending tone of the whole post.

vikingson wrote:
, I might like to point out, that a ship is one single large 'object', and most definitely exceeds the spell's limit of 10 cubic feet per level.... hence, i t cannotbe repaired through the spell in the first place

Again. More unrequested, argumentative and snide points that were not required in the post.

vikingson wrote:
And a hole in a vessel's hull is not similar to a puncture or rip in a cloak....

And just in case I was too ignorant to get all of the other argumentative points... Here is one more kick in your ass on the way out.

So, in short, if vikingson was really just innocently answering my question, a simple "Oh... I just came to that conclusion from my reading of the "if not list" of Make Whole." Or something similar, would have been quite sufficient.

Sczarni

Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Adventure, Companion, Lost Omens Subscriber
vikingson wrote:


Plus, if you intend to get all 'rules lawyerly' , I might like to point out, that a ship is one single large 'object', and most definitely exceeds the spell's limit of 10 cubic feet per level.... hence, i t cannotbe repaired through the spell in the first place
Just playing Devil's advocate Object definition 1 part one
www.m-w.com wrote:
something material that may be perceived by the senses

in this you are correct that a ship is an object.

Object definition 1 part four

www.m-w.com wrote:
a thing that forms an element of or constitutes the subject matter of an investigation or science

if you consider a liberal view (meaning if magic were real it would be listed next to science) object could mean one wall, plank or nail of the ship, while it would use many spells to mend the whole ship, it is possible, especially if you have more than one PC who can cast divine spells.


Cpt_kirstov wrote:
object could mean one wall, plank or nail of the ship, while it would use many spells to mend the whole ship, it is possible, especially if you have more than one PC who can cast divine spells.

I believe in the case of the Sea Wyvern, several masts (and sails) are actually gone, and it has a few hull sections that one would view as beyond the capabilities of the spell (i.e. effectively "warped, burned, disintegrated, ground to powder, melted, or vaporized").

Again, the very next issue of Dungeon magazine details how to repair the Ship, and what effect the Make Whole spell has on this effort.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Cpt_kirstov wrote:
if you consider a liberal view (meaning if magic were real it would be listed next to science) object could mean one wall, plank or nail of the ship, while it would use many spells to mend the whole ship, it is possible, especially if you have more than one PC who can cast divine spells.

That is certainly one possible view - and would render "minor creation", "major creation" and "fabricate" rather obsolete. But looking at the wording of "mending" and "make whole" (QFT below) , the object refered to is always the object damaged/broken. So if you repair a broken plank with this magic, you would still have to fit, fix, batten and caulk it into place to repair the hull. But you might do that.

Besides, "Make Whole" is of transmutation school and not a creation spell, and as such should not be bring into being new matter, but only change (back) what is already existant.

To quote the SRD
"Mending repairs small breaks or tears in objects (...). It will weld broken metallic objects such as a ring, a chain link, a medallion, or a slender dagger, providing but one break exists.
Ceramic or wooden objects with multiple breaks can be invisibly rejoined to be as strong as new. ...."

and from "make whole"
"This spell functions like mending, except that make whole completely repairs an object made of any substance, even one with multiple breaks, to be as strong as new. ..."

The "object" in question, is at least gramatically, always the broken object itself, not the object to affect the repairs on a larger structure/physical non-living entity. Therefore the ship, the object broken, should be to big to be affected. Nevermind the missing parts like nails, fastenings, clamps etc. which are not "re-created". YMMV

Anyway, M. Vincent's post answers the entire debate rather well - at least it strongly indicates how the authors viewed the utility (and relative power) of the spell by having it give a +5 bonus to the repair skill check of one of the twelve destroyed sections per spell .


Thanks for the help, guys. I have decided that Make Whole will work on repairing damaged sections, but not destroyed ones. That should keep HTBM intact.

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