The Alternate Items


RPG Superstar™ 2008 General Discussion

The Concordance RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32 , Star Voter Season 8, Star Voter Season 9 aka catdragon

Feel free to critique, throw tomatoes, send monopoly money, what have you.... But i would value any feedback....

gloves of legerdemain

Once snugly worn, these gloves seem to meld with the hands, becoming almost invisible. Twice per day, the wearer can perform one of the following skills at a range of 30 feet: Disable Device, Open Lock, or Sleight of Hand. Working at a distance increases the normal skill check DC by 5, and the wearer cannot take 10 on this check. Any object to be manipulated must weigh 5 pounds or less. The wearer must have at least one rank in any of the skills to be able to use the gloves.

You must wear gloves of legerdemain for 24 hours before you gain access to their abilities. If you take them off, they become inactive until worn for an additional 24 hours.

Moderate transmutation; CL 9th; Craft Wondrous Item, teleknesis; Price 22,500 gp.

Legendary Games, Necromancer Games

I was a huge fan of these and I think they got in on my vote. One of the other two judges really liked them, too. Well, let me back up. Obviously all three of the judges liked the item or it wouldnt have made the top 71, which is what we drew the top 32 and alternates from. But I was the one pushing for this to be top 32, though since you were near the bottom of my top 32 ranking you squeaked in as an alternate. :)

The Concordance RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32 , Star Voter Season 8, Star Voter Season 9 aka catdragon

Clark Peterson wrote:
... you squeaked in as an alternate. :)

I like squeaking. :)

Anything in terms of improving the item? Writing style, mechanics wise? Looking for the bad things about it so I can improve.

Liberty's Edge

Wow I wish this money was real. It's not. I'll send it to ya!
Not sure how I feel about them being almost invisible; I'm thinking about it and debating it in my head. I like the item though.


Wait! You mean you can't wash your hands if you want to keep using them? Ewww...

Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 16

catdragon wrote:

Feel free to critique, throw tomatoes, send monopoly money, what have you.... But i would value any feedback....

gloves of legerdemain

Once snugly worn, these gloves seem to meld with the hands, becoming almost invisible. Twice per day, the wearer can perform one of the following skills at a range of 30 feet: Disable Device, Open Lock, or Sleight of Hand. Working at a distance increases the normal skill check DC by 5, and the wearer cannot take 10 on this check. Any object to be manipulated must weigh 5 pounds or less. The wearer must have at least one rank in any of the skills to be able to use the gloves.

You must wear gloves of legerdemain for 24 hours before you gain access to their abilities. If you take them off, they become inactive until worn for an additional 24 hours.

Moderate transmutation; CL 9th; Craft Wondrous Item, teleknesis; Price 22,500 gp.

It took me a second to place the name, we had a conversation about my astrology piece a while back didn't we?

(assuming there's only one catdragon in the world :) )

I don't have my DMG in front of me so I could be wrong but isn't ranged legerdemain a class feature for the Arcane Trickster? Does this item simply duplicate that feature or does it improve on it in some way? (my memory is pretty hazy about that PrC, don't think I've ever actually seen someone play it).

On the clarity side, I found the second sentence open to multiple interpretations. More specifically, the link between "Twice per day..." and "...can perform one of the following skills...".

I'm pretty sure it means you can use the gloves twice each day, each time you use the glove you may perform one of the following three skills at a range of up to 30 feet.

On the other hand, it could also mean, you must pick one of these three skills each day and, twice each day, you can perform the particular skill you choose that day at a range of up to 30 feet.

Legendary Games, Necromancer Games

Here are some (edited) comments:

Clark said:

Oh man I really like these gloves. Now this is an item I can get behind. Simple. Good mechanic. Great item. I vote Keep.

Wolfgang Baur wrote:

I think they are pretty entertaining, and it's a nice twist to call this telekinesis rather than trying to weasel it as based on mage hand or unseen servant or whatever. Keep it around.

The Concordance RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32 , Star Voter Season 8, Star Voter Season 9 aka catdragon

Hal: Yep, that was me. And astrology is a big part of my home campaign right now.... :)

Yah I can see how the wording of the times per day and the skills that can be used could be confusing. I meant that the gloves can be used 2 times per day for any of the skills.

And yes, the item did come from ranged legerdemain from the arcane trickster prestige class. But i think that particular class ability is one of the coolest and I felt that it deserved a method so other classes could use it.

Which means i should have added the paragraph: "If a character using these gloves already had a class ability that duplicates the magical effect (such as the arcane trickster from the DMG), then these gloves allow the character to use the class ability an additional time per day."

Clark and Wolfgang: And I never thought of using mage hand, though if I did, I would have rejected it. That makes these gloves way too inexpensive. :D

Marathon Voter Season 6, Dedicated Voter Season 7, Marathon Voter Season 8, Star Voter Season 9 aka Clouds Without Water

Nice item, every bit as good as the top 32.

Liberty's Edge

Can we see the alternates? I enjoyed reading the top 32, ever so much.
Please, sir, can I have more?

RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32 aka ViktorS

catdragon wrote:

Feel free to critique, throw tomatoes, send monopoly money, what have you.... But i would value any feedback....

gloves of legerdemain

I shall throw tomatoes then.

I wonder if the judges were aware of the ranged legerdemain class feature. Items duplicating class features may be cool, but they're uninspired. The cool idea and mechanics of the class feature must be attributed to the original designer.

Viktor Svindland
No longer RPG Superstar Top 32


I was sorry to see you go Viktor hope there are no regrets. I thought your Diviner's Drill was very creative and intriguing and had been thinking about it for a few days. Thought you would do well as most future rounds are primarily creative. Also thought your Diviner's Drill was something most players wouldn't normally choose to acquire but after acquiring from being experiemented on by the BBEG thought most would keep it if they weren't wisdom based casters. I'm still curious how your country would have turned out would it have been be a dark, gritty cthulhu country or if you would have surprised us with a magic fey land?.

The Exchange Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 6 , Dedicated Voter Season 6

My alternate:

Gloves of Force Shaping

Woven from phase spider silk, these gloves are visible only as a faint distortion in the air. When worn, they grant the ability to see and identify the nature of force effects, even ones that are normally invisible. Three times per day, the gloves allow their wearer to manipulate force. As a standard action, the wearer can create a 5-foot square force wall (as a wall of force spell), or a 10-foot square if a full-round-action is used. Optionally, the wearer can instead create a hole in an existing force effect (even a wall of force or forcecage). The hole created can be as large as a 5-foot cube as a standard action, or a 10-foot cube as a full-round action. If this is larger than the force effect in question, the effect is suppressed entirely. In any case, the force wall, hole or suppression lasts for 3 rounds. The wearer must have at least one hand free to use the gloves, no command word is required.
Moderate Evocation; CL 11th; Craft Wondrous Item, disintegrate, see invisibility, wall of force; Price 12,500 gp.

Apparently somewhere between the 4th and 6th alternate :)

Legendary Games, Necromancer Games

ViktorS wrote:
catdragon wrote:

Feel free to critique, throw tomatoes, send monopoly money, what have you.... But i would value any feedback....

gloves of legerdemain

I shall throw tomatoes then.

I wonder if the judges were aware of the ranged legerdemain class feature. Items duplicating class features may be cool, but they're uninspired. The cool idea and mechanics of the class feature must be attributed to the original designer.

Viktor Svindland
No longer RPG Superstar Top 32

Viktor, its too bad you dont like that item, since it is moving into the top 32 to replace your item now that you have withdrawn.


Well, I'll lay my head on the block as well. It's an item I always wanted my rogues to use ... and a simple one as well.

... ah mea culpa. Wrong thread. Mine was no "alternate" and thus switched to the more approriate thread.


Congratulations Catdragon I like the gloves but they seem really overpriced for what they do being limited to 30' range, 5 pounds and 2/Day usage for 22,500 gp, since what they are doing is just a little over what the Mage Hand capablity is normally.

There are a a few lower level SRD spells that the gloves could be based on IMO:

Probably the cheapest way would be to use a combination of the Mage Hand spell and the Unseen Servant spells combined in a magic item neither of which could normally do this alone but this would be testing the limits of both spells with a range of 25' but they are doing something really unusal in game so probably not a good idea since it would be awful cheap.

Another method would be to base the gloves off a variant of the Hand of the Mage 900 gp enhanced with the Shadow Conjuration spell to enhance the Mage Hand 2/day with a range limit of 25' by creating a 20% real ghostly shadow hand or possibly a ghostly phantasmal thief shadow hand controlled by the player because the spell wll duplicate any level 3 or below conjuration effect in game. Should be a lot cheaper with prorated usage augmenting existing glove abilities but would have to sit down and calculate it later because I'm calling it a night.

Another method could be if the gloves were a variant form of the Hand of the Mage 900 gp

***Add intelligence +2,000 gp 60' sight and hearing (Add 2 abilities)

***Add 10 skill ranks sleight of hand +5,000 gp (It could be 20 ranks for +10,000 gp and increasing the intelligence up another step for an additional +2,000 gp)

***Swap out Faerie Fire for Unseen Servant 3/Day +1,100 gp and instead of Unseen Servant, the Mage Hand effect of the gloves can now be augmented 3/day to perform ranged legerdemain and the bearer receives a aid another skill assist bonus from the intelligent gloves.

The total is 9,000 or 16,000 gp (with the 20 skill ranks) pricey but the gloves are letting a player do something really unusual in game and can always be tweaked down with crafting cost reduction mechanics.

Just a few thoughts looking forward to seeing your country.


ViktorS wrote:
Items duplicating class features may be cool, but they're uninspired.

The entire prestige class is uninspired. D4 for hit points? The fact an item can entirely replace the class ought to mean something.


Clark Peterson wrote:
Viktor, its too bad you dont like that item, since it is moving into the top 32 to replace your item now that you have withdrawn.

Umm, why take a swipe at Viktor?

RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32 aka ViktorS

I deserved that.

Russ Taylor wrote:
Gloves of Force Shaping

I really like this Item. It has interesting mechanics and it was a good choice to tie the mechanics to gloves. That creates a good synergy of form and function that's easy to visualize.

RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32 aka ViktorS

Quote:

The entire prestige class is uninspired. D4 for hit points? The fact an item can entirely replace the class ought to mean something.

I like the item. I would use it in my campaign. But I don't see how a copy paste job like this gets into the top 38 out of 800+ submissions in a design contest.

SRD wrote:


Gloves of Arrow Snaring
Spoiler:

Once snugly worn, these gloves seem to meld with the hands, becoming almost invisible. Twice per day, the wearer can act as if he had the Snatch Arrows feat, even if he does not meet the prerequisites for it. Both gloves must be worn for the magic to be effective. At least one hand must be free to take advantage of the magic.

Faint abjuration; CL 3rd; Craft Wondrous Item, shield; Price 4,000 gp.

SRD wrote:


Ranged Legerdemain
Spoiler:

An arcane trickster can perform one of the following class skills at a range of 30 feet: Disable Device, Open Lock, or Sleight of Hand. Working at a distance increases the normal skill check DC by 5, and an arcane trickster cannot take 10 on this check. Any object to be manipulated must weigh 5 pounds or less.

An arcane trickster can use ranged legerdemain once per day initially, twice per day upon attaining 5th level, and three times per day at 9th level or higher. He can make only one ranged legerdemain skill check each day, and only if he has at least 1 rank in the skill being used.


Gloves of Legerdemain

Gloves of Arrow Snaring wrote:
Once snugly worn, these gloves seem to meld with the hands, becoming almost invisible. Twice per day, the wearer can
Ranged Legerdemain wrote:
perform one of the following class skills at a range of 30 feet: Disable Device, Open Lock, or Sleight of Hand. Working at a distance increases the normal skill check DC by 5, and
the wearer
Ranged Legerdemain wrote:
cannot take 10 on this check. Any object to be manipulated must weigh 5 pounds or less.

The wearer must have at least one rank in any of the skills to be able to use the gloves.

Spoiler:
Paraphrases the "only if he has at least 1 rank in the skill being used."requirement from Ranged Legerdemain

You must wear gloves of legerdemain for 24 hours before you gain access to their abilities. If you take them off, they become inactive until worn for an additional 24 hours.


I guess he picked something obscure enough, and blended his sources well enough, that either the judges didn't notice, or they didn't care.

But I admit, it sounds like they didn't notice.


Whoa. There's nothing wrong with taking an existing item and redoing it. The point of Round One of this contest (as we know in hindsight) was cool ideas. He's got a cool idea. Good designers take SRD stuff and rework it all the time. He didn't plagiarize and the item is different. If there's a similarity in wording, well so what?

Really, the sour grapes and overanalyzing to drag others down instead of giving them their day in the sun is disappointing to say the least.


No sour grapes here just a very intriguing item regarding costing it out because this one is a classic case of subjective pricing IMO. In hindsight I would also liked to have been a little more creative myself like "All" the second round contestant's submissions have been. My personal preference is always with well crafted items to cost and utility in game and I enjoy tweaking with the mechanics to lower the price of the items since I usually take the Craft Wondrous Item feat in game with a spellcaster. This is more like a higher level specialty item for a player who doesn't wish to PRC into Arcane Trickster while picking up access to a few of the class specials which mechanics exist for already in the SRD like the Ring of Evasion.

My first post today was lost in the ether (think I took to long typing it up and was timed out by the server since it was a lengthy post probably should have saved the post periodically and keep editing it for those of you who have been losing posts on the server lately might want to keep in mind).

After more review of the gloves I think this item is campaign dependent on whether it is a Wondrous Item or a Minor Artifact would probably depend on how and when it is acquired in game. It is straddling the fence testing the boundaries.

IMO it is a Craft Wondrous Item if it could be obtained directly from the creator as a custom magic item commission or one of his clients. A player living in the same locale as the creator could have access to the item and not be aware of what a unique item this is in game.

The potential to craft the item isn't the same as knowing how to craft the item so doubtful there are more than one or two creators in the world who would know how to make it, could make it and would be willing to make it.

Should be interesting in game trying to find a creator to craft this item as most Wondrous Item Crafters would probably be of the opinion it would border on the impossible as a task despite being theoretically possible for a player making inquiries regarding commissioning such an item and even the creators capable of crafting the item might lie being Rogues and all.

It would basically take a level 13+ character with 5 levels of the Arcane Trickster PRC to make using the Craft Wondrous Item feat so it could be incredibly rare finding someone like that in game at levels 13+ with the Craft Wondrous Item feat with the inclination to make the time to research and craft the itme.

This item is a bit of a magical quandry, for the original creator this is only a Unique Custom Crafted "Wondrous Item" but for almost all other crafters in game this is basically impossible to duplicate and thus a Minor Artifact.

The Ring of Evasion duplicates the SRD class Evasion Special of the Monk and Rogue classes and costs 25,000 gp.

The Ring of Climbing has a crafting requirement of 10 skill ranks in Climb.

Elven Boots and Cloaks require the crafter to be a elf.

Some items are considered Minor Artifacts because there was only one creator who could make them who is dead or normally unavailble in game (Citing a non open game source for example only: Halaster Blackcloak and the Horned Rings in FRCS (Hey Halaster how about making me a Horned Ring? Halaster well I have been looking for an apprentice followed by a mad cackle........).

This is a really good example of a tough item to price. IMO it is a Craft Wondrous Item to an Arcane Trickster - 5 normally a character with 13+ levels.

It would basically be a Minor Artifact to everyone else in game which would require setting the price at 25,001+ gp despite artifacts normally having no cost listed for the purposes of the Wish spell so no wish cheese to make it with loopholes like Candles of Invocation and Efreeti Wishes. However the creator should be able to make it for less using the Craft Wondrous Item feat IMO.

Base pricing 25,000 as the Ring of Evasion in the SRD providing a class special with the 10% reduction for needing to have ranks in 4 skill prerequisites of the Arcane Trickster PRC to use the item and a 30% cost reduction for needing to be able to cast Mage Hand would drop it down to 15,000 gp and available at levels 11+ using suggested wealth by level.

Shadow Conjuration might be a good spell non Arcane Tricksters use to duplcate the base spell for the item on having it make a "Shadow Hand" since it will duplicate level 3 and below conjuration spells and effects.

I have really been engaged by the mechanics behind this magic item. Looking forward to seeing your country.

Scarab Sages RPG Superstar 2013 , Dedicated Voter Season 6, Dedicated Voter Season 7, Dedicated Voter Season 8, Star Voter Season 9 aka Steven T. Helt

mwbeeler wrote:
ViktorS wrote:
Items duplicating class features may be cool, but they're uninspired.
The entire prestige class is uninspired. D4 for hit points? The fact an item can entirely replace the class ought to mean something.

I agree with the swipe at viktor. While I don't presume to know why you dropped out, it seems pretty low class to advance in a contest and then criticize an item you already beat out. I think the right thing to say (whether you believe it or not), is "That item deserves to be top 32 just as much as mine did. Good luck." You don't wanna start a feeling that an alternate got in just cause you backed out.

I note again the sage words of Erik Mona: If you can't follow through you probably shouldn't enter.

And I like the arcane trickster. Spells, sneak attack, skills, impromptu sneak attacks? As a core class it's cool enough. Add a scout or ninja to that mix instead. Mmmmm good.

A weak version of one class feature does not replace a class. If so, rogue's with the track feat would obsolete rangers. That isn't true, but it's as silly a statement.

You should both be better sports. In less than a year, I'll be buying an adventure not published by either of you, or me for that matter. Set a high standard, but be encouraging.


Rogue Teeth

These rare and coveted items come as a pair in a variety of precious materials ranging from gold and silver to the much sought after ivory. They must be put in place of missing teeth directly above and below each other so that when the owner bites down, they will touch. This often times means the forced removal of at least one tooth to get the proper alignment. When placed in such a manner and used to gently bite an object, said object is removed to an extra dimensional space. This space will hold up to five cubic feet of material with weight not to exceed fifty pounds. Three times per day, items can be placed in or retrieved as a standard action, by exerting pressure on the teeth and concentrating on the desired item. Most commonly held items are; lock picks, daggers, potions, vials of acid etc. These teeth are attributed, by those who know of them, with the seemingly miraculous escapes of some of the most infamous rogues of all time.

Moderate Conjuration; CL 10th; Craft Wondrous Item, secret chest; Price 90,000 gp.

Dark Archive Dedicated Voter Season 9

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
varianor wrote:

Whoa. There's nothing wrong with taking an existing item and redoing it. The point of Round One of this contest (as we know in hindsight) was cool ideas. He's got a cool idea. Good designers take SRD stuff and rework it all the time. He didn't plagiarize and the item is different. If there's a similarity in wording, well so what?

Really, the sour grapes and overanalyzing to drag others down instead of giving them their day in the sun is disappointing to say the least.

He didnt plagiarize anything that is correct.

I think people's beef is that it IS a class ability from a PrC. I cant recall where I saw this, but a game designer (i think it was Monte Cook) mentioned that if anyone created a magic item, it shouldnt copy a class ability as it would take the fun out of a class that had that specific ability.

I would never use this item in a game as it does copy the Arcane Trickster ability, but thats just me.

Grand Lodge Dedicated Voter Season 6, Star Voter Season 7, Dedicated Voter Season 8

CastleMike wrote:

Congratulations Catdragon I like the gloves but they seem really overpriced for what they do being limited to 30' range, 5 pounds and 2/Day usage for 22,500 gp, since what they are doing is just a little over what the Mage Hand capablity is normally.

There are a a few lower level SRD spells that the gloves could be based on IMO:

Probably the cheapest way would be to use a combination of the Mage Hand spell and the Unseen Servant spells combined in a magic item neither of which could normally do this alone but this would be testing the limits of both spells with a range of 25' but they are doing something really unusal in game so probably not a good idea since it would be awful cheap.

I would absolutely not allow mage hand or unseen servant to use any of the listed skills. I really think this is a stretch for something to criticise.


iaptus wrote:

Rogue Teeth

These rare and coveted items come as a pair in a variety of precious materials ranging from gold and silver to the much sought after ivory. They must be put in place of missing teeth directly above and below each other so that when the owner bites down, they will touch. This often times means the forced removal of at least one tooth to get the proper alignment. When placed in such a manner and used to gently bite an object, said object is removed to an extra dimensional space. This space will hold up to five cubic feet of material with weight not to exceed fifty pounds. Three times per day, items can be placed in or retrieved as a standard action, by exerting pressure on the teeth and concentrating on the desired item. Most commonly held items are; lock picks, daggers, potions, vials of acid etc. These teeth are attributed, by those who know of them, with the seemingly miraculous escapes of some of the most infamous rogues of all time.

Moderate Conjuration; CL 10th; Craft Wondrous Item, secret chest; Price 90,000 gp.

Congratulations a very creative and original twist. I really like them but believe they are way overcosted IMO based on the Bags of Holding (2,500 gp+), the Handy Haversack (2,000 gp) and the Portable Hole (20,000 gp).

The Handy Haversack has 3 dimensional spaces and doesn't weigh much plus you can retrieve stored items easily and the teeth are holding about one third the capacity of the Handy Haversack plus there is limited usage 3/day and a portable hole that hold way, way more only takes up the space of a hankerchief.

I'd suggest pricing them around 4,000 gp based on the Handy Haversack and the limited 3/day daily retrieval feature and being fixed in the player's mouth more or less permanently but depending on the crafting mechanics emphasis they seem to fall in the range of 2,000 gp to 6,000 gp range unless they don't take up a head magic item slot since the fixed nature of the teeth should address any body slot affinity cost issues. I'd consider adding the level 1 Bard Obscure Object spell to the teeth to hide their magical nature when the Rogue is detected and searched for magic items before gettng locked up and jailed for an extra 2,000 to 4,000 gp. Just my thoughts.

Good luck. Looking forward to seeing your country.


DmRrostarr wrote:
I think people's beef is that it IS a class ability from a PrC. I cant recall where I saw this, but a game designer (i think it was Monte Cook) mentioned that if anyone created a magic item, it shouldnt copy a class ability as it would take the fun out of a class that had that specific ability.

There's a point for discussion. Famous game designers (Sean K Reynolds for example) used to also say that feats shouldn't be replicated by items either. Now however they can be. There are numerous examples of items that imitate or duplicate feats. I have personally seen items that duplicate Hide in Plain Sight. SKR reversed himself on that original opinion a while back.

While I agree in principle with the statement, countless rules in 3.5 (especially beginning with the Complete series) break or negate the original principles as presented in the core books. So I think it's a moot point at this late date in Third Edition.

Scarab Sages

varianor wrote:
Whoa. There's nothing wrong with taking an existing item and redoing it. The point of Round One of this contest (as we know in hindsight) was cool ideas. He's got a cool idea. Good designers take SRD stuff and rework it all the time. He didn't plagiarize and the item is different. If there's a similarity in wording, well so what?

PLAGIARIZE

Main Entry: pla·gia·rize
Function: verb
Inflected Form(s): pla·gia·rized; pla·gia·riz·ing
Etymology: plagiary
Date: 1716
: to steal and pass off (the ideas or words of another) as one's own : use (another's production) without crediting the source
intransitive verb
: to commit literary theft : present as new and original an idea or product derived from an existing source

I respectfully disagree and I am sorry to Robert and the judges (please put on your thick skin before reading further) but this contest was billed as searching for original ideas. This subject has come up in other posts and is starting to be a recurring and legitimate gripe of a number of people. One of the judges job in any contest is to limit the liability of the sponsor company, there have been numerous requests for decks and other publications of these items. This is a clear case of an item that could probably not be published without crediting the source for the words used as they at least partially appear to not be wholly original content. Some creative word-smithing could have avoided this issue which leaves me wondering is this really superstar material, there are so many good items that didn't make the cut, this one just seems a little out of the superstar realm.


DCII wrote:
This subject has come up in other posts and is starting to be a recurring and legitimate gripe of a number of people.

The word gripe speaks volumes. ;)

Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1) - Cite This Source - Share This
gripe /graɪp/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[grahyp] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation verb, griped, grip·ing, noun
–verb (used without object)
1. Informal. to complain naggingly or constantly; grumble.
2. to suffer pain in the bowels.


The Gloves of Legerdemain is a decent idea, but my only problem is the cut-and-paste job. I don't think it is arguable as Viktor amply demonstrated; the similarities are simply too striking to be coincidence. If it were up to me, I would disqualify Gloves of Legerdemain.

The Gloves of Legerdemain has an opposite problem to the Elemental Quiver posts (which concerned something out a WOTC published book) which I objected to. The gloves are arguably a new way to use an old ability; however, I think its the execution that is poor, particularly by cutting and pasting existing flavor text. The Quiver, which I don't think is an "original" idea, at least had differing flavor text.

I have also noticed a tendency to "shoot the messenger" by the oft-used "sour grapes" rejoinder when someone has raised a legitimate concern about a winner. I have noticed the "its all sour grapes" proponents usually include the pithy "and go away and shut up" somewhere in their well thought out response. It is an ad hominem attack that does little to advance the discussion. My item didn't make it, and I am perfectly fine with that. I've seen most of the items posted on the "loser" thread, and I feel no shame to losing to those items, either.

I think Paizo should be commended for having a contest like this. I really like 30 of the items that were chosen, and I think the judges had a tough job. I help run a local gaming convention (WARNING: SHAMELESS PLUG: www.roundcon.com), and I can absolutely tell you that gamers are breed apart from the rest of humanity. Ergo, anyone willing to run a contest FOR GAMERS has to either be certifiably insane or extremely brave.

However, I guess I have a disturbing inner need to have contest rules applied fairly and evenly. This particular item is one of two incidents where I just don't the item was "original." I don't know how the "behind the scenes" of the contest was run, but I would suggest next time (if there is a next time) there should done a little different. It seems that the judges are having to not only judge for content, but also judge for rules compliance. Maybe next time there should a vetting committee that makes sure the entry rules are complied with and the contestants are duly qualified. That way, the judges can focus on whether solely on who is a winner.

Legendary Games, Necromancer Games

Dungeon Grrrl wrote:

I guess he picked something obscure enough, and blended his sources well enough, that either the judges didn't notice, or they didn't care.

But I admit, it sounds like they didn't notice.

We are taking the 5th on that :)

Legendary Games, Necromancer Games

Dont bag on Viktor too hard. He brings up good points. And it is a valid design issue that items should not steal class abilites.

Scarab Sages RPG Superstar 2013 , Dedicated Voter Season 6, Dedicated Voter Season 7, Dedicated Voter Season 8, Star Voter Season 9 aka Steven T. Helt

I have to say this: I thought my pillow submission was completely and thoroughly original. It came from my head. I thought the ability is something lots of parties would kill for.

It's also an ability granted by the 6th level spell of the dream domain, I found out later. I actually found out when looking through my spell compendium after KARI-H asked people to review her submitted item.

No one can cast that spell. You either have to have the dream domain (the spell doesn't exist on any other list), or you have to be a 9th level chameleon (cast divine spells from any list) to do it. So it's still pretty rare, but the mechanic exists.

This game is huge. There are a thousand writers submitting content to wotc, paizo, white wolf, necromancer and fifty other companies. Some really good ideas are gonna come from more than one source. Some ideas are intuitive and are going to be represented in campaigns that never submit them for rules. I agree you don't want to make a living duplicating class abilites, but you needn't look any farther than the ring of evasion to see that it happens in the core rules. Duplicating little-used class abilities to augment a character's portfolio has precedent, and it's acceptible much of the time - especially in a game where characters can make or commission their own design for magic items.


bcgambrell wrote:
The Gloves of Legerdemain is a decent idea, but my only problem is the cut-and-paste job. I don't think it is arguable as Viktor amply demonstrated; the similarities are simply too striking to be coincidence. If it were up to me, I would disqualify Gloves of Legerdemain.

However, that wasn't a criteria of the contest. Good writing in fact seemed to be a non-issue for Round 1, and bad writing only got truly horrendous submissions tossed.

To also respond to a different point, it isn't plagiarism and here's why. The SRD is a document predicated upon the Open Game License. It specifically allows you to reproduce the Open Game Content in its entirety, or portions thereof. This contest required the contestants to use the SRD. I have seen top game designers take things from the SRD whole cloth, change up a few things, leaving wording the same, and reuse the material. It's not wrong, its an accepted industry practice, and there are numerous d20 products out there which took large sections of the SRD and reprinted them.


DCII wrote:
varianor wrote:
Whoa. There's nothing wrong with taking an existing item and redoing it. The point of Round One of this contest (as we know in hindsight) was cool ideas. He's got a cool idea. Good designers take SRD stuff and rework it all the time. He didn't plagiarize and the item is different. If there's a similarity in wording, well so what?

PLAGIARIZE

Main Entry: pla·gia·rize
Function: verb
Inflected Form(s): pla·gia·rized; pla·gia·riz·ing
Etymology: plagiary
Date: 1716
: to steal and pass off (the ideas or words of another) as one's own : use (another's production) without crediting the source
intransitive verb
: to commit literary theft : present as new and original an idea or product derived from an existing source

I respectfully disagree and I am sorry to Robert and the judges (please put on your thick skin before reading further) but this contest was billed as searching for original ideas. This subject has come up in other posts and is starting to be a recurring and legitimate gripe of a number of people. One of the judges job in any contest is to limit the liability of the sponsor company, there have been numerous requests for decks and other publications of these items. This is a clear case of an item that could probably not be published without crediting the source for the words used as they at least partially appear to not be wholly original content. Some creative word-smithing could have avoided this issue which leaves me wondering is this really superstar material, there are so many good items that didn't make the cut, this one just seems a little out of the superstar realm.

I agree with Varianor and Ancient Sensei. It isn't plagiarzed because it is open game content which may be modifed as desired under the Open Game License. The only gray area would be the Open Game License wasn't added to the entries but I believe I was the only idiot in the contest who was stupid enough to attach it to an entry since I wasn't aware I could have hidden with a spoiler tag at the time:

Spoiler:

OPEN GAME LICENSE Version 1.0a
The following text is the property of Wizards of the Coast, Inc. and is Copyright 2000 Wizards of the Coast, Inc ("Wizards"). All Rights Reserved.

Definitions:
"Contributors" means the copyright and/or trademark owners who have contributed Open Game Content;
"Derivative Material" means copyrighted material including derivative works and translations (including into other computer languages), potation, modification, correction, addition, extension, upgrade, improvement, compilation, abridgment or other form in which an existing work may be recast, transformed or adapted;
"Distribute" means to reproduce, license, rent, lease, sell, broadcast, publicly display, transmit or otherwise distribute;
"Open Game Content" means the game mechanic and includes the methods, procedures, processes and routines to the extent such content does not embody the Product Identity and is an enhancement over the prior art and any additional content clearly identified as Open Game Content by the Contributor, and means any work covered by this License, including translations and derivative works under copyright law, but specifically excludes Product Identity.
"Product Identity" means product and product line names, logos and identifying marks including trade dress; artifacts; creatures characters; stories, storylines, plots, thematic elements, dialogue, incidents, language, artwork, symbols, designs, depictions, likenesses, formats, poses, concepts, themes and graphic, photographic and other visual or audio representations; names and descriptions of characters, spells, enchantments, personalities, teams, personas, likenesses and special abilities; places, locations, environments, creatures, equipment, magical or supernatural abilities or effects, logos, symbols, or graphic designs; and any other trademark or registered trademark clearly identified as Product identity by the owner of the Product Identity, and which specifically excludes the Open Game Content;
"Trademark" means the logos, names, mark, sign, motto, designs that are used by a Contributor to identify itself or its products or the associated products contributed to the Open Game License by the Contributor
"Use", "Used" or "Using" means to use, Distribute, copy, edit, format, modify, translate and otherwise create Derivative Material of Open Game Content.
"You" or "Your" means the licensee in terms of this agreement.
The License: This License applies to any Open Game Content that contains a notice indicating that the Open Game Content may only be Used under and in terms of this License. You must affix such a notice to any Open Game Content that you Use. No terms may be added to or subtracted from this License except as described by the License itself. No other terms or conditions may be applied to any Open Game Content distributed using this License.
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Use of Product Identity: You agree not to Use any Product Identity, including as an indication as to compatibility, except as expressly licensed in another, independent Agreement with the owner of each element of that Product Identity. You agree not to indicate compatibility or co-adaptability with any Trademark or Registered Trademark in conjunction with a work containing Open Game Content except as expressly licensed in another, independent Agreement with the owner of such Trademark or Registered Trademark. The use of any Product Identity in Open Game Content does not constitute a challenge to the ownership of that Product Identity. The owner of any Product Identity used in Open Game Content shall retain all rights, title and interest in and to that Product Identity.
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COPYRIGHT NOTICE
Open Game License v 1.0a Copyright 2000, Wizards of the Coast, Inc.

System Reference Document Copyright 2000-2003, Wizards of the Coast, Inc.; Authors Jonathan Tweet, Monte Cook, Skip Williams, Rich Baker, Andy Collins, David Noonan, Rich Redman, Bruce R. Cordell, John D. Rateliff, Thomas Reid, James Wyatt, based on original material by E. Gary Gygax and Dave Arneson.

Creature Collection Volume 1 Copyright 2000, Clark Peterson.

Modern System Reference Document Copyright 2002, Wizards of the Coast, Inc.; Authors Bill Slavicsek, Jeff Grubb, Rich Redman, Charles Ryan, based on material by Jonathan Tweet, Monte Cook, Skip Williams, Richard Baker,Peter Adkison, Bruce R. Cordell, John Tynes, Andy Collins, and JD Wiker

Monster Manual II Copyright 2002, Wizards of the Coast, Inc.

Swords of Our Fathers Copyright 2003, The Game Mechanics.

Mutants & Masterminds Copyright 2002, Green Ronin Publishing.

Unearthed Arcana Copyright 2004, Wizards of the Coast, Inc.; Andy Collins, Jesse Decker, David Noonan, Rich Redman.

The Hypertext d20 SRD Copyright 2004, Jans W Carton.


CastleMike wrote:
DCII wrote:
varianor wrote:
Whoa. There's nothing wrong with taking an existing item and redoing it. The point of Round One of this contest (as we know in hindsight) was cool ideas. He's got a cool idea. Good designers take SRD stuff and rework it all the time. He didn't plagiarize and the item is different. If there's a similarity in wording, well so what?

PLAGIARIZE

Main Entry: pla·gia·rize
Function: verb
Inflected Form(s): pla·gia·rized; pla·gia·riz·ing
Etymology: plagiary
Date: 1716
: to steal and pass off (the ideas or words of another) as one's own : use (another's production) without crediting the source
intransitive verb
: to commit literary theft : present as new and original an idea or product derived from an existing source

I respectfully disagree and I am sorry to Robert and the judges (please put on your thick skin before reading further) but this contest was billed as searching for original ideas. This subject has come up in other posts and is starting to be a recurring and legitimate gripe of a number of people. One of the judges job in any contest is to limit the liability of the sponsor company, there have been numerous requests for decks and other publications of these items. This is a clear case of an item that could probably not be published without crediting the source for the words used as they at least partially appear to not be wholly original content. Some creative word-smithing could have avoided this issue which leaves me wondering is this really superstar material, there are so many good items that didn't make the cut, this one just seems a little out of the superstar realm.

I disagree it isn't plagiarzed because it is open game content which may be modifed as desired under the Open Game License. The only gray area would be the Open Game License wasn't added to the entries but I believe I was the only idiot in the contest who was stupid enough to attach it to an entry since I wasn't aware I could have hidden...

Sigh:: I could try and explain in detail the difference between a license and something in the public domain. However, I figure its useless. "To those who disbelieve, no explanation is possible; to those that believe, no explanation is necessary." To sum up, D&D is under a license, and you have to comply with the license. I dare you to publish your own copy of D&D, and pull out our stopwatch to see how fast you get sued. However, pick up a copy of the King James Bible and publish your own copies of it. That's fine because the KJV Bible is in the public domain: no one owns it.


bcgambrell wrote:
[Sigh:: I could try and explain in detail the difference between a license and something in the public domain. However, I figure its useless. "To those who disbelieve, no explanation is possible; to those that believe, no explanation is necessary." To sum up, D&D is under a license, and you have to comply with the license. I dare you to publish your own copy of D&D, and pull out our stopwatch to see how fast you get sued. However, pick up a copy of the King James Bible and publish your own copies of it. That's fine because the KJV Bible is in the public domain: no one owns it.

Dude. I handle litigated claims for a living. I ain't a lawyer like you (but many lawyers out there think I am when we first talk). When we're down to eyerolling or sighing and dares, we're not having a discussion, we're having a pissing contest. That said, have you read the Open Game License? At all?


varianor wrote:
To also respond to a different point, it isn't plagiarism and here's why. The SRD is a document predicated upon the Open Game License. It specifically allows you to reproduce the Open Game Content in its entirety, or portions thereof. This contest required the contestants to use the SRD. I have seen top game designers take things from the SRD whole cloth, change up a few things, leaving wording the same, and reuse the material. It's not wrong, its an accepted industry practice, and there are numerous d20 products out there which took large sections of the SRD and reprinted them.

You're confusing plagiarism with violating copyright. I don't believe plagiarism is illegal. Violating copyright definitely is.

Copyright deals with ownership rights, while plagiarism deals with passing someone else's work off as your own. For example, if there's a poetry contest and you submit a John Donne poem as your own, that's only plagiarism (as it's out of copyright). If instead, you say "I don't write poetry, but here's a Maya Angelou poem I like" and submit a poem of her's, that's copyright infringement but not plagiarism.

In the case of the Gloves of Legerdemain neither applies. There's no copyright violation because it uses OGL material, and I'm sure he expected many people to recognize the class ability (i.e., he's not trying to pretend he came up with it all on his own, just like Duchamp expected people to recognize the Mona Lisa in his L.H.O.O.Q.).

Writers usually take accusations of plagiarism a lot more seriously than charges of copyright violations. You should be very careful tossing it around.

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