Sorry, Logue. I had one eye on Paizo and one eye on Project Runway. Now that's torture porn!Yeah, we covered that ground. My bad.Look at how well R-rated movies do compared to PG-13 ones on average.Actually, R-rated movies do worse.
Ha! The true definition emerges!!!
This post is to Sect.
He put his own comments in spoiler tags, so I will do likewise:
My reply:
Where you have to say "Umm" and "Reread the adventure overview and background for the first adventure," really kinda piss me off, because it's condescending. Like you you have to point out something that I just overlooked...
But okay, let's not be personal about it.
I don't think you're looking at Nualia and Tsuto as true characters, but merely as response to stimuli. (I know that will draw some smart comments, but follow me here...)
Nualia was described as having a lifetime of alienation and isolation due to her unusual nature. She craved acceptace and love, and like a lot of young girls in the real world, she was taken advantage of and betrayed. The birth of her child was a further degradation. The pressure Tobyn must have exerted on her must have been intense. Can you imagine, he wants her to go to the Windsong Abbey, and here she is soiling herself with carnal behavior that ends with birthing a horror that they took away and burned. That's a whole lot of shame and humiliation that took place long before the Runewell fired up.
Certainly the Runewell triggered what amounted to a psychotic break in Nualia, but the seeds of her souls destruction were sown long before the final catalyst.
Jervis Soot, who is abused as a child? He just woke up and decided to be evil? Again... These people were loaded guns just waiting for the Runewell to pull that trigger.. and once they went over, there was no going back.
Similiarly, Tsuto has no investment in anything, but his new found object of desire. The hated unwanted bastard who never meets his mother because she is forbidden to visit him. The boy who only rarely sees his sister. He wasn't touched by the Runewell, but he's part of my larger point...
Longjitsu? He has to live with the feeling of inadequacy and personal shame for 20 years of a wife who would have rather found pleasure in the arms of another man? And how he torments Tsuto with such a cruel upbringing away from family? That's a powerful anger right there, to punish a child for something they were responsible for.. and to make Tsuto's mother and his own wife pay for that every day for decades. And again, the Runewell only served to pull the trigger.
Hell no, Sect, these people most certainly did not just wake up one day and decide to be evil.
Rise of the Runelords is very much about the nature of Sin.
Not everything that happened to these characters was their fault, but how they dealt with it afterwards is something they're responsible for.
And our Runelord harvests souls that have made choices.. like on the gambling boat in Chapter Three.
Please, just don't be quick to try to point out that someone is wrong, just in order to do it.
Oh sure, it can be fun. I just find it kind of silly to suggest that not wanting gore means you want to play "Strawberry Shortcake", when most of the content of the Pathfinder books would fall into that "non-gore" group. Another way to interpret the statements about how great having the gore is, is that up to this point Pathfinder has been a crappy wanna-be PG product. Frankly, I doubt that is how most people feel, so I wonder why the slamming against products that are similiar to how most of Pathfinder has been?Oh, I don't know, I kind of like the silly characterizations...:-E
Maybe both "sides" should lay off of trying to characterize the other in some kind of silly way.
Pres Man,
Dude, just saying and I'm not trying to be a dick, because you've contributed a lot to this argument that I round intellectually stimulating. But I wonder what right you think you have to call someone's post "heavy handed" in a thread you started that refers to people's hard wrought work as "torture porn."
I've had the unfortunate experience of seeing things that actually qualify as torture porn in my mind, and I was insulted to see HMM likened to it, and then more so later to be dismissed as a yes-man. I'm over it now, and interested in a real dialogue about these issues , but I don't know how you could take offense at the "chasing butterflies" comments that I felt were there to add a light tone to a potentially heated conversation.
I'm not pissed at you or anything, just trying to offer some perspective, and I'm enjoying this discussion immensely when it stays civil, so lets all please keep it that way (me included), if we want to continue to tackle the issue of what's objectionable, what's not, should we go ahead and censor people's work to protect a few people's delicate sensibilities, or not. All good questions worth examining, but the needlessly aggressive tone of some of your posts raised my hackles, and I think you need to take a step back and realize that no one here hates you, we are just disagreeing.
This post is to Sect.
He put his own comments in spoiler tags, so I will do likewise:
** spoiler omitted **
My reply:
** spoiler omitted **
I can understand people objecting to the content, esp of PF#3...so do what some people are doing, voice that objection so the people in charge know that pushing the envelope even more in the future might not be the best idea, and CHANGE IT for YOUR campaign. Don't force them to water it down in some way b/c you don't like it.
How is anyone on here going to force anything? I think you might be getting a little extreme in your thinking here. Nobody (excluding the people that work here) is going to be able to force anything. What you are saying is if someone comes on these boards and says, "This bothers me, I'd like it if you didn't do it anymore." That it is appropriate for someone to stand up and start shouting, "Censorship!" Only governments have the power to censor private products, no individual consumer has that power. What we are doing here is known as "feedback", just as is the thread where people are posting, "This Rocks, in fact it is too toned down for me, I want a totally no hold bars extreme version! Heck yeah!" Are those people "forcing" Paizo to get more extreme or are they just presenting their opinion, you know "feedback".
Dopple, do you have nothing better to do than troll this board and try and provoke people with passive-aggressive sarcasm? Just wondering...
WTF?
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Whoa, nobody called you a backwards, prudish, over-sensitive moron!
But, why then do you finish your response to JSL this way?
They may decide to display their affections, and that would result in much objectionable material, so you might have to ban charm monster entirely to protect your delicate sensibilities. ;-)
You know, there's the bummer with Messageboards right there. Seems like you are poking fun at JSL and, thus, others with 'delicate sensibilities.' Though it's hard to tell with the winking smiley-face! This is the kind of discussion that lends itself to brews and a brew pub.
I think JSL raises some valid points that--in fairness--you seem to dismiss before launching into a battle royale over the merits and misuses of Charm Monster. If the PC's don't ever really find out all of the suggested/implied/never-explicit gory goodies, then why take up page-space with it?
Look, I don't envy your position, you're either being lauded or shot at on this board, but could you take another stab (no pun) at answering JSL's concerns? We've been PbPing RotRL, and he's a damned good DM. He deserves better than "read the thread," smiley-face or not.
Oh sure, it can be fun. I just find it kind of silly to suggest that not wanting gore means you want to play "Strawberry Shortcake", when most of the content of the Pathfinder books would fall into that "non-gore" group. Another way to interpret the statements about how great having the gore is, is that up to this point Pathfinder has been a crappy wanna-be PG product. Frankly, I doubt that is how most people feel, so I wonder why the slamming against products that are similiar to how most of Pathfinder has been?Oh, I don't know, I kind of like the silly characterizations...:-E
Maybe both "sides" should lay off of trying to characterize the other in some kind of silly way.Pres Man,
Dude, just saying and I'm not trying to be a dick, because you've contributed a lot to this argument that I round intellectually stimulating. But I wonder what right you think you have to call someone's post "heavy handed" in a thread you started that refers to people's hard wrought work as "torture porn."
I've had the unfortunate experience of seeing things that actually qualify as torture porn in my mind, and I was insulted to see HMM likened to it, and then more so later to be dismissed as a yes-man. I'm over it now, and interested in a real dialogue about these issues , but I don't know how you could take offense at the "chasing butterflies" comments that I felt were there to add a light tone to a potentially heated conversation.
I'm not pissed at you or anything, just trying to offer some perspective, and I'm enjoying this discussion immensely when it stays civil, so lets all please keep it that way (me included), if we want to continue to tackle the issue of what's objectionable, what's not, should we go ahead and censor people's work to protect a few people's delicate sensibilities, or not. All good questions worth examining, but the needlessly aggressive tone of some of your posts raised my hackles, and I...
What's a hackle? (giggles)
I agree with Nick. I think disagreement is not only natural, but that it should be expected. No one has exclusive rights to the truth.
This "I'm Offended" crap cuts across all socio-, political, and religious lines. I've had it up to here with it. Somethings gone seriously off kilter in our society. Seems that if you scream loud and long enough that you're offended by something, the person who's "offending" you is supposed to eventually cave in and change. And now its trickled down to my hobby game. For cryin' out loud.
I'M OFFENDED AT YOUR OFFENSE! CHANGE IT! CHANGE IT! CHANGE IT!
...on second thought, I agree whole-heartedly :)
Buckle on your armor, screw up your courage, man (or woman) up, and deal with it. Its a freakin' adventure module. You're the DM. Change it to your liking. Sheesh.
Our fictional characters, the heroes we create in our games, the ones that laugh in the face of despicable evil and bravely charge in where others fear to tread would be ashamed of us, sitting here all boo-hoo'ing over words and pictures in a book. Elric would look down on us in scorn. Aragorn would shake his head in disgust. Drizzt would laugh mockingly. Old Bilbo would smack us upside the head. Conan would...well, better to not imagine what Conan would do.
Ugh.
QFT. \m/ As a matter of fact... \mm/
At the end of the day, this comes down to one thing: comfort zones. Different people have theirs set at different levels than other people do. Some are up there in the "It's ok to kill evil things. What makes them evil? Well, it says that they are in the MM...", while others are down in dark places that other fear to tread. I have a feeling that HMM spawned from the latter, which I respect and enjoy seeing. If you make your players feel something, ANYTHING, then you've done your job as a DM. Whether that's accomplishment at slaying 3HD of Giant or revulsion at what that 3HD of Giant did before it killed those rangers, that's YOUR call as a DM. D&D is a mature game. If you want something that's black-and-white good-and-evil, turn on a video game. Your high and mighty paladin is no different than Mario if you don't think about the actions he's committing.
Is it your right as a consumer to voice your concern over something that you find questionable? Yes. Is it your right to defend a product that you find enjoyable? Yes. It is your right to declare the other side wrong? Sadly, this is the internet, so yes. I respect every posters' opinion, but I have one of my own, and I'll be damned if some yutz thinks it's his or her responsibility to tell it to me. Nick, James, Mr Pett, all yunz guys, I've said it before and I'll say it again: Great job, keep up the excellent work.
Back to D&D teaching young people to take action, let's turn to the awesome doofy dude in THE BEST X-Files episode of all time: "I didn't play Dungeons and Dragons all my life and not learn a little something about courage."
Nice, but Pathfinder isn't for young people, or is it?
Dude, just saying and I'm not trying to be a dick, because you've contributed a lot to this argument that I round intellectually stimulating. But I wonder what right you think you have to call someone's post "heavy handed" in a thread you started that refers to people's hard wrought work as "torture porn."
And I'm not trying to be an asshat, but maybe your too close to the issue. I didn't say it was torture porn, I said it was starting to feel that way. It is starting to give that impression, whether it is really it or not. I also have said that my concern was that it seemed as if these things were escalating, to which it has been stated that it has reached the peak and will be toning down after this (which I assume means it will be turned into "ogre's chasing butterflies while listening to Hanna Montana or whatever"). I didn't say the product wasn't good, heck I've thought alot of "horror" movies have been done well, just the level of description is not to my taste. I was worried when I started this thread that maybe, I was a freak for feeling that way, but I have been glad to see that the feeling, though perhaps rare on this site, is not totally unique.
I've had the unfortunate experience of seeing things that actually qualify as torture porn in my mind, and I was insulted to see HMM likened to it, and then more so later to be dismissed as a yes-man. I'm over it now, and interested in a real dialogue about these issues , but I don't know how you could take offense at the "chasing butterflies" comments that I felt were there to add a light tone to a potentially heated conversation.
Except when it is directed at only one side of the discussion, then it is not trying to lighten the mood but to insult, through humor. That is fine, I wasn't upset by it, it just seemed hypocritical to me, was all.
I'm not pissed at you or anything, just trying to offer some perspective, and I'm enjoying this discussion immensely when it stays civil, so lets all please keep it that way (me included), if we want to continue to tackle the issue of what's objectionable, what's not, should we go ahead and censor people's work to protect a few people's delicate sensibilities, or not. All good questions worth examining, but the needlessly aggressive tone of some of your posts raised my hackles, and I think you need to take a step back and realize that no one here hates you, we are just disagreeing.
And I am not trying to crap all over your work, but I and no other customer here has the power to censor anything. If the big dogs choose to, well that is their decision, but lets not put the blame on the consumers. As for the "aggressive tone" of posts, well I think it is fairly balanced on both sides, as is a "dismissive tone" as well.
Dopple, do you have nothing better to do than troll this board and try and provoke people with passive-aggressive sarcasm? Just wondering...WTF?
I agree with Doppelganger. I think he's been bringing up good points, and he's been very civil. I think he's just *disagreeing* just like what my posts have done as a responce to the OP. No big whoop.
I agree with Doppelganger. I think he's been bringing up good points, and he's been very civil. I think he's just *disagreeing* just like what my posts have done as a responce to the OP. No big whoop.Dopple, do you have nothing better to do than troll this board and try and provoke people with passive-aggressive sarcasm? Just wondering...WTF?
I didn't mean that in general he was trolling, the last hyperbole comment from him seemed rather pointed at me, unless I was misinterpreting it....
I can understand people objecting to the content, esp of PF#3...so do what some people are doing, voice that objection so the people in charge know that pushing the envelope even more in the future might not be the best idea, and CHANGE IT for YOUR campaign. Don't force them to water it down in some way b/c you don't like it.How is anyone on here going to force anything? I think you might be getting a little extreme in your thinking here. Nobody (excluding the people that work here) is going to be able to force anything. What you are saying is if someone comes on these boards and says, "This bothers me, I'd like it if you didn't do it anymore." That it is appropriate for someone to stand up and start shouting, "Censorship!" Only governments have the power to censor private products, no individual consumer has that power. What we are doing here is known as "feedback", just as is the thread where people are posting, "This Rocks, in fact it is too toned down for me, I want a totally no hold bars extreme version! Heck yeah!" Are those people "forcing" Paizo to get more extreme or are they just presenting their opinion, you know "feedback".
Just as a general commentary not directed at you. I was just thinking about how one US political party has a firm "less government" approach but tends to be the first at bat to demand that this rock-n-roll has got to go. I do find the issue of censorship close to heart since my art would offend most people out there. I cringe at the thought of labels.
I also read Dopple's posts as being sarcastic, but then re-read them and saw that they could be read as being matter-of-fact. Text can be taken so many ways. Much like a - snip! (edited for lack of a real punhcline and terrible puns)
Back to D&D teaching young people to take action, let's turn to the awesome doofy dude in THE BEST X-Files episode of all time: "I didn't play Dungeons and Dragons all my life and not learn a little something about courage."Nice, but Pathfinder isn't for young people, or is it?
I tend to consider anyone 22 and down pretty young. They are still growing as people...heck, I'm still growing as a person and I'm 30 now.
Also, I never attacked consumers or you pres man. Don't know where you get this from. My advice (take it with a grain of salt my man), next time you have a valid issue to raise, cause you seem to be pretty vehement about this one, don't start the thread with such an inflammatory title, you'll get a better response. May want to avoid terms like "yes-man" too. I assume you are looking for a dialog of ideas and not just trolling right?
To the rest of your comments, if you think I'm "too close to the issue" then I'm happy to bow out of this thread, just figured I should respond to people's concerns with something I had a hand in is all. I hope everybody keeps it civil and enjoys the discussion.
To the rest of your comments, if you think I'm "too close to the issue" then I'm happy to bow out of this thread, just figured I should respond to people's concerns with something I had a hand in is all. I hope everybody keeps it civil and enjoys the discussion.
Nick, please do not bow out of this thread. I understand that it sometimes insults your baby, but your input in this thread is essential to the discussion. You're the only person around who knows exactly what the author was thinking when he wrote the adventure!
Also, I never attacked consumers or you pres man. Don't know where you get this from. My advice (take it with a grain of salt my man), next time you have a valid issue to raise, cause you seem to be pretty vehement about this one, don't start the thread with such an inflammatory title, you'll get a better response. May want to avoid terms like "yes-man" too. I assume you are looking for a dialog of ideas and not just trolling right?
1. All I'm saying is consumers can not censor anything, it is the big dogs that do that.
2. Actually a more provocative title is more likely to get more response than a less so (remember the whole "mature" title issue). Whether more = better is debatable, but statistics suggests more increases the chance of getting better. ;)
3. I have NEVER used the term "yes-man" in this thread, why are you suggesting I have.
4. So what, I am troll now? Would that be a normal one or a scrag, just curious?
4. So what, I am troll now? Would that be a normal one or a scrag, just curious?
Not saying you're a troll, and I apologize for the yes-man comment. That was someone else. Sorry about that my man.
Enjoy the thread.
Actually I know what Nic thinks as he thinks it. Right now he's not so much thirsty as desired fluid coursing down his throat, revitalizing him. Alas the stove and tea bags are all the way over there.
Actually I know what Nic thinks as he thinks it. Right now he's not so much thirsty as desired fluid coursing down his throat, revitalizing him. Alas the stove and tea bags are all the way over there.
Oh sure, lots of people know what he's thinking NOW. He's the only who knows what he was thinking THEN! :)
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Just as a general commentary not directed at you. I was just thinking about how one US political party has a firm "less government" approach but tends to be the first at bat to demand that this rock-n-roll has got to go.
I think you should leave Tipper Gore out of this thread. Its heated enough as it is.
:-)
4. So what, I am troll now? Would that be a normal one or a scrag, just curious?
I see you more as a psionic hamster.
I didn't mean that in general he was trolling, the last hyperbole comment from him seemed rather pointed at me, unless I was misinterpreting it....I agree with Doppelganger. I think he's been bringing up good points, and he's been very civil. I think he's just *disagreeing* just like what my posts have done as a responce to the OP. No big whoop.Dopple, do you have nothing better to do than troll this board and try and provoke people with passive-aggressive sarcasm? Just wondering...WTF?
I also, may have misinterpreted a misinterpretation which may have been from a misinterpretation, but, as it turns out, was a misinterpretation.
I hope I'm not misinterpreting. It's been a bad few months, and we just rescued a trained, test-tube peregrin hawk hybred with a US gov issued collar on it right in the middle of the stree in front of my wife's shoppe in Oroville.
(No one's missing a trained hawk at the moment, are they??)
It's easy to forget how easily written communication can be misconstrued. The thread's title does grab people's attention, but if they read the thread through a filter of strong emotions, they may see criticism that isn't intended.
(Channeling my inner flower child...)
Peace and Harmony, brothers! That's where it's at!
Just as a general commentary not directed at you. I was just thinking about how one US political party has a firm "less government" approach but tends to be the first at bat to demand that this rock-n-roll has got to go.I think you should leave Tipper Gore out of this thread. Its heated enough as it is.
:-)
How about her hubby that was on the council listening to her?? (giggles) Oh, wait, they were the other party. They were, weren't they?
I hope Logue stays. Only one poster thus far seemed to be a rough rider, and I enjoyed everyone's intake.
I think this is a great argument. With Sect, it's the equivalent of the "Runewell made me do it" versus Watcher!'s equivalent of "We make our own choices" reason. Personally, I think that if the Runewell had such power, everyone in Sandpoint would wake up that day and enact rages that we all feel from time to time. I likewise agree with the later.
I took the spoiler tags away, because I think we're safely past spoiling much.
Thanks Darkart, BTW.
More to the point, I think Sect's suggestion that 'magic is the cause of evil' really subtracts from a storyline where Sin is a component.
Let's step back and look at the entire Thassalonian Empire. Under Xin's initial administration, it doesn't sound like it was a bad place to be. Each aspect of their magic was based on something that is fairly well intentioned.
But the farther removed from the core values the Emire gets, which Power has a way of doing, the easier it is to see those values corrupted.
Ask yourself, why did the Seven Runelords stray from Xin and Lissla's Virtues of Rule? Because it was easier. They found a system to convert Sin into magic power, and it was just easier and quicker than trying to encourage and build up the Virtues.
The Ogres are harder for me to comment on.. because they are beastial creatures, and predatory violence is their way of life. Yeah, I wouldn't want every adventure to be laden with themes like the Ogres, but once in a while doesn't bother me.
Hell, I was Supervisor in a medium security Correctional Facility for 12 years before I decided I needed a change. It wasn't like Hollywood depicts, but Nick Logue hasn't written anything that shocking to me.
Seriously, my reply to Sect (in spoiler tags a few posts up) was written from a desire to point out that this isn't all slasher flick violence. You have to look at it Chapter One with some senstivity to see it the genuinely mature themes that are there.
Chapter Two is a story of seduction.
And in Chapter Three, it seems all too easy to ignore Lucrecia because the ogres are so icky and shocking...
Nah, this isn't just slasher flick stuff, though that element is certainly there.
I think James is right. Seven is a good movie to watch in keeping with running this game. And that, was sure not a slasher flick, but a dark disturbing pyschological drama.
I hope Logue stays. Only one poster thus far seemed to be a rough rider, and I enjoyed everyone's intake.
Indeed, I am interesting in seeing a response to santinj@'s statements.
In live theatre, every time we issue a press release with the words "Warning: This show contains extreme staged violence and nudity" we sell out. Just saying.Anyhoo, my REAL point was that I applaud not slapping a "Mature Content" sticker on...I think it'd be tacky and uncalled for considering the content in Pathfinder comes no where near things in the slock horror movies we see taking up all the space at our local movie theatre...why can't we have more 3:10 to Yumas? :-)
The live theatre caveat is wholly dependent on where the venue is. Where I'm located it's usually death. There was a recent production of playwright Martin Mcdonagh's "The Pillowman here recently and because of the content the producers placed the usual warning on the posters: Pretty small houses overall. We have a serious time getting people to see a production that have that sort of warning on them. It's a pretty conservative area though, and most new shows have a difficult time getting attention. (Which really breaks my heart honestly, so much great theatre out there just waiting to be done.)
I happen to agree though, I think it's good that there isn't a warning on the AP. I've not completely finished reading HMM (just finished the retaking the fort yesterday), there's some remarkably disturbing stuff in it though. Is some of it over the top? Yes, but I think the story of the adventure (and of the entire AP) is far more interesting and involving enough to make that stuff easy to ignore or (more importantly)incorporate in such a way that it doesn't feel out of place.
Now to continue reading the rest of the thread.
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...That's my exact point. Just because you don't agree with something being upsetting to people doesn't mean it is not upsetting to people. and for what it's worth, I know people who:
1) Refuse to let fathers bath their infant children or change girls diapers.
2) Literally do run red faced and sweating from mothers breastfeeding in public, complete with covering childrens faces and lifting them up and running with them.
3) Stay away from possible nude statues and/or petitioning the museum in question to either cover up exposed genitalia on statues or place the statues in such a way that the exposed genitalia cannot be seen without walking around the room to an exact angle...
This is probably going to get me flamed, but...historically (or at least stereotypically), these people tend to be cut from the same cloth as the Puritan hypocrites who embroidered that lovely Palmer script 'A' for our dear fictional heroin, Hester Prynne...
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My PhD says I do....the word was used because of the demanding nature of the original post, and that that was probably the only way for him to be placated, like the customer who is ALWAYS right, no matter what...Dictionary.com 'retroactive'. I do not think that word means what you think it means.
Wikipedia 'hyperbole'
I agree with your PhD...
Why is everyone yelling at me?
Why is everyone yelling at me?
BECAUSE YOUR EARS LOOK SO FREAKISHLY SMALL! WE JUST WANT TO MAKE SURE YOU CAN HEAR US!
Torture Porn? Nah, that is overblown imho. It is certainly what I'd call dark, but no worse than things that have appeared in Dungeon over the years. I actually have found some of it quite amusing..."THEM OGRES AIN"T RIGHT!" ;-)
I must weigh in here- I've run some pretty dark games in my time- where the players all played evil characters and it was my job as the DM to combat them. I have seen the depravity that lurks within the average joe and it can be disturbing. HMM is disturbing to an extent, but if you look at it from a biological standpoint: ogres consider themselves to be higher on the food chain than the lesser races, therefore the rangers become "sport" and food.
In response to an earlier comment about simians and eating something you could conceivably converse with, please consider many of the foods used throughout the world, notably monkeys in areas where they are plentiful.
Now, at first blush, the ogres' actions seem a bit much, but if you take into context that this is a fantasy game and the PCs are combating evil, it does not hurt for the evil to be REALLY evil. Once you've defeated it, you know, incontrovertably, that you have done something right and worthwhile. I applaud Nic for keeping us on our toes. Sin is a multi hued thing- sometimes it is shallow and hard to see, and other times its blatant.
The ogres, IMHO, represent greed and gluttony and lust. In their lust they violate everything, in their greed they take and slaughter, and in their gluttony they overindulge in eating their prisoners.
A horrifying thing to see, but oh-so-satisfying to remove from the world.
I am looking forward to the rest of the ROTRL campaign. Look hard- the sins are everywhere!
Now, at first blush, the ogres' actions seem a bit much, but if you take into context that this is a fantasy game and the PCs are combating evil, it does not hurt for the evil to be REALLY evil. Once you've defeated it, you know, incontrovertably, that you have done something right and worthwhile. I applaud Nic for keeping us on our toes. Sin is a multi hued thing- sometimes it is shallow and hard to see, and other times its blatant.
The ogres, IMHO, represent greed and gluttony and lust. In their lust they violate everything, in their greed they take and slaughter, and in their gluttony they overindulge in eating their prisoners.
A horrifying thing to see, but oh-so-satisfying to remove from the world.
I can only speak for myself here, but for me it was not that the ogre(kin) did various things, it was the level of description I as a DM had to read that bothered me. As I've said before, it mainly an issue of where the lines are drawn, mine are different from others, who are still different than other others, etc.
Torture porn? Maybe not, but it's drifting mighty close. I tried to warn you...
I hope they don't aim for PG-13.
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I mean if this stuff bothers you so much, don't ever watch CNN or MSNBC; that's real blood on there.Personally, I don't watch CCN and MSNBC because they just piss me off. FOX News isn't much better, but at least pundits are fun to listen to.
Funny, I don't even consider Fixed Noise a real news channel. Keith Olbermann and Chris Matthews are the only pundits I give any credence to in any event.
Just an opinion mind you.
RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32
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I mean if this stuff bothers you so much, don't ever watch CNN or MSNBC; that's real blood on there.Personally, I don't watch CCN and MSNBC because they just piss me off. FOX News isn't much better, but at least pundits are fun to listen to.Funny, I don't even consider Fixed Noise a real news channel. Keith Olbermann and Chris Matthews are the only pundits I give any credence to in any event.
Just an opinion mind you.
I gotcha. I never said that they were more right or wrong, I just said they were more fun to listen to.
Not as much fun as Steven Colbert, though!
We're done with this topic. More torture porn!
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Torture Porn? Nah, that is overblown imho. It is certainly what I'd call dark, but no worse than things that have appeared in Dungeon over the years. I actually have found some of it quite amusing..."THEM OGRES AIN"T RIGHT!" ;-)
My sentiments exactly! This doesnt' even approach torture porn - as for nasty things in dungeon and DnD in general: An extra-dimensional madhouse of fused skulls, a grimlock shaman with eyes sewed into his empty sockets and the 'Tomb of Blood Everlasting' would all disturb the faint of heart - and speaking of disturbing: check out the critters in Libris Mortis...or some of the undead in AoW
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I mean if this stuff bothers you so much, don't ever watch CNN or MSNBC; that's real blood on there.Personally, I don't watch CCN and MSNBC because they just piss me off. FOX News isn't much better, but at least pundits are fun to listen to.Funny, I don't even consider Fixed Noise a real news channel. Keith Olbermann and Chris Matthews are the only pundits I give any credence to in any event.
Just an opinion mind you.
I gotcha. I never said that they were more right or wrong, I just said they were more fun to listen to.
Not as much fun as Steven Colbert, though!
We're done with this topic. More torture porn!
Sounds good to me.
I can only speak for myself here, but for me it was not that the ogre(kin) did various things, it was the level of description I as a DM had to read that bothered me.
Can you give a concrete example of something you had to read as DM of this module you found disturbing? I am genuinely curious what you found to go beyond a casual mention of something unpleseant to something disturbing to even read.
Time for some Smurf torture porn.
[You hear a moist rip and pop much like the last time you tore a chicken leg off a succulent chicken, camera pans from Kruelaid's scarred and scowling face down to his work table as he rips off Papa Smurf's head and places it between Smurfette's cold legs, having days ago removed said legs and attached them to Gargamel's cat. Gratuitous closeups and morbid music accompany Kruelaid's sick necro-vivisection.]
Oh look! I got a present!