When you get to do the more experimenting part of your adventure paths, I would really like to see a whole path where the players get to be evil.
A path that shows the importance of the balance, and maybe that good and evil are not that different, but the means on how to accomplish the goals are.
Of course, an evil path would require a way to ensure the players to work together. Maybe a path where the main goal of the campaign is known early on, but the work to accomplish it is long and hard.
Means like assainations, torture, and the like should be a part of the campaign.
It would be super cool to see the other side of the world through the eyes of the players. Maybe some new rules to cope with player insanity?
Later adventure paths could have elements of cleaning up the stuff the players did in their evil campaign. Maybe a path where the main villain(s) are (one of) the charaters of the evil campaign.
A little sidenote: I am going with Paizo on the 4e question.
|
I don't think that an Evil A.P. is something to be expecting for the near future since the minority plays truely evil parties. Since doing an experiment could alienate the pathfinder crowd and result in less sales and by consequence means converting those losses back with another A.P resulting in a year of lower clients I don't see this happening in the near or even far away future. My best guess is hoping for evil party gamemastery modules, that would be a better, safer option.
But let's not leave on negativity, imo RotR is thus far the easiest to convert A.P. by paizo to evil groups.
My advice would be an evil party where someone has knowledge of the sihedron ruin and it's ties to very powerfull magic. Have the goblins display on their tunics this ruin, that gives incentive for an evil party to at least try to capture goblins. They could tie that to Tsuto, torture Tsuto to give away Nualia, through Nualia they could find out about the Quasit which they could try to either persuade (through whatever means) to give some information about Thassilon (very little now).
That's some initial thoughts for the first adventure. If interested and if I find the time we could start a Evil A.P. idea thread
Evil parties could have fun by not just defeating Kharzoug but usurping his power.
|
the minority plays truely evil parties.
I don't think so. As I see, most parties are evil parties with "Something Good"-Aligned characters. I mean, taking profit from other, looting the goblins, or just killing them without any attempt of making them walk the Good path, this are not good deeds from my PoV.
Common gamestyle doesn't include large amounts of non-lethal damage, it include large amount of blood. At least the fantasy I know in Spain.Beyond this, I think that the APs are playable with evil characters with appropiate motivations. If the motivation is killing for the sake of killing, it can be really boring. But if motivation is wealth, power, domination, etc, I think that this can be played with all the AP without major GM works.
|
When you get to do the more experimenting part of your adventure paths, I would really like to see a whole path where the players get to be evil.
A path that shows the importance of the balance, and maybe that good and evil are not that different, but the means on how to accomplish the goals are.
I cannot wait for the Red Planet to pop up. I am drooling for an adventure path that goes beyond the known world. I am still hoping for a Green Martain equivilent. Heathanson and I want our Warhoons...
I don't really think there ever will be an AP directed mainly at evil players. What I do hope for, is an AP that allows the players to choose sides. Maybe not good and evil, maybe just choose between two warring factions. It would be rather difficult to include all possible choices the players may make, but what if, in the final installment of the AP, the players gets to choose between the two sides? I don't see why that adventure couldn't include stats and maps for both sides' stronghold.
Or something in that vein. Hopefully, I made myself clear.
|
I have never DMed or played in an evil game that didn't get boring after a couple of sessions.
Sorry to be negative.
I would be happy to see more experimental APs (red planet, high seas, monster PCs, high intrigue, hollow world - not even that radical, but interesting). I'd be especially happy if the febrile minds at Paizo could conjure up something unique, or at least highly original, as well as experimental.
|
|
Can't say I would be too excited by an AP that assumed evil PCs. I've never actually played in any group where the majority would have wanted an "evil" experience. A few wild cards every now and then in different groups, people that wanted to play outside the "good" box. But they have always been the minority.
|
|
I don't think so. As I see, most parties are evil parties with "Something Good"-Aligned characters. I mean, taking profit from other, looting the goblins, or just killing them without any attempt of making them walk the Good path, this are not good deeds from my PoV.
Common gamestyle doesn't include large amounts of non-lethal damage, it include large amount of blood. At least the fantasy I know in Spain.Beyond this, I think that the APs are playable with evil characters with appropiate motivations. If the motivation is killing for the sake of killing, it can be really boring. But if motivation is wealth, power, domination, etc, I think that this can be played with all the AP without major GM works.
Let me rephrase then, groups where players actively state they are evil. Most D&D groups I've played in people wrote down Neutral instead of Good. Good is too much the other extreme, I haven't really seen groups where everyone did paladin like behavior.
As for another thing, Paizo did the evil side thing in the first adventures of Savage Tide.
There will probably not ever be an Adventure Path specifically designed for evil PCs. Paizo has to market their adventures to appeal to as broad an audience as possible, which would not be possible if they assume that the PCs are evil. The closest you'll get is something along the lines of Savage Tide, where there will be notes to convert the adventures if the party "chooses the dark side."
An enterprizing DM could convert the current Pathfinder AP to focus on the seven sins and sin magic, however.
Savage Tide tempted us with sidebars in the first few adventures for evil parties, then it kind of fizzled out. I thought it was a cool idea then, and I'd like to see it continue. At the very least there should be an AP with tips, side treks and possibly alternate endings aimed just at evil parties.
As a side note, it would be nice if Paizo commissioned a few cheap online articles for just such a purpose. They shouldn't feel limited to page layout, especially for supplementary material. People love the online supplements, but it doesn't seem like Paizo is willing to spend a little bit of money on free articles.
I wouldn't buy an adventure path intended for evil PCs. I prefer for my groups to portray "heroic" PCs.
I have no problem with an AP that includes advice/consequences for groups where the PCs perform evil acts, so long as that isn't the assumed or required behavior.
|
|
People love the online supplements, but it doesn't seem like Paizo is willing to spend a little bit of money on free articles.
We all love free stuff but I'd question your assumption that it is a matter of "willing". Are the people who run Paizo just being tight, or does giving out free stuff cost money they can't afford to fritter away?
I know you emphasise the cheapness, but cheap is a relative concept. Added to that, Paizo seem to be trying to cement a reputation for quality with the APs, so cheap content will still need to be scrubbed up, rendering it less cheap, to match the marketing strategy.
Are the people who run Paizo just being tight, or does giving out free stuff cost money they can't afford to fritter away?
WotC is one of their competitors, and they are offering this. I will gladly pay a little more if it means I can get material in a medium that is not limited by magazine page space.
Creative Director
|
It's not that we're not willing to do free stuff. It's more like we simply don't have the time or manpower to do free stuff. There's a big difference.
As for an evil adventure path, I've certainly considered it, but it's unlikely to happen; evil campaigns simply aren't popular enough to justify six months of support in Pathfinder.
|
Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
|
It's not that we're not willing to do free stuff. It's more like we simply don't have the time or manpower to do free stuff. There's a big difference.
What is this manpower you speak of? Didn't you read Takasi's post? All you need to do is a spend a little bit more money and *blammo* quality articles worthy of posting for free will magically appear. I'm sure he will enlighten us shortly that you don't need to edit them, that you could just post them on a message board. And damnit if he doesn't have a point. Why would we want you to produce professional quality material when you can rush something crappy out the door?
If only Paizo weren't so selfish. If you truely loved us, you'd come by and help us run our games too. And convert them to Eberron illegally. And give me a foot rub. My feet are very sore James, I could really use a foot rub. WotC would give me a foot rub, why won't you?
Foolish me for thinking you can actually expand your business and hire new people. :rollseyes:
|
|
It's not that we're not willing to do free stuff. It's more like we simply don't have the time or manpower to do free stuff. There's a big difference.
As for an evil adventure path, I've certainly considered it, but it's unlikely to happen; evil campaigns simply aren't popular enough to justify six months of support in Pathfinder.
You could do one a one issue campaign; that's how long evil campaigns last 90% of the time anyway. Rogue pickpockets fighter, fighter stabs rogue, rogue stabs fighter, goblins kill rest of party... (ducks)
|
Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
|
Foolish me for thinking you can actually expand your business and hire new people. :rollseyes:
You would know Paizo's financial condition and ability to expand better than James. We can only hope that he takes your sage like advice to heart for once. In the meantime, maybe you could forward him the resumes of these quality writers you know who are willing to work for "a little bit of money" full time.
|
Contributor
|
Savage Tides minor spoilers ahead, ye be warned...
I thought Savage Tide lent itself very well to evil groups. Especially backstabbing, blackmailing, willing-to-work alongside Demon Lord types. I suppose it wouldn't work for Stupid Evil parties, but evil-ish parties should have been just fine.
Especially given the fact that people seem inclined to think was impossible to play very good characters near the end.
Van Gogh never made any money in his lifetime. But he was a painter.Maybe he'd be willing to write some free articles for Paizo. The fact that he is dead should make him dirt cheap.
Yeah, Zombie Van Gogh wouldn't take a salary, but the problem is the necromancer.
A 5th-level cleric could cast animate dead on Van Gogh (let's assume his corpse is still in suitable condition to be animated as a zombie, because let me tell you, you don't want skeletons writing for you for Nerull's sake), for 150 gp + 50 gp in material components. 200 gp weighs 66-2/3 ounces; at today's prices ($820.70/oz.), that's $54,713.
Not to mention the cost of keeping the necromancer on staff to keep Zombie Van Gogh from wandering around trying to eat the brains of the other staffers.
(If you did want to animate him as a skeleton, or his body wasn't in good shape, you could cut that down to $47,874, but as mentioned, I wouldn't recommend it.)
You would know Paizo's financial condition and ability to expand better than James. We can only hope that he takes your sage like advice to heart for once. In the meantime, maybe you could forward him the resumes of these quality writers you know who are willing to work for "a little bit of money" full time.
-> points to people working at WotC's website
I may not know their financials, or all of their excuses, but I know the end result and it could be better. Or does everyone here think Paizo is practically perfect in every way?
(Waits for smurf hands to raise high.)
|
Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
|
-> points to people working at WotC's website
Ah, I didn't realize those people were working for "a little bit of money" and were available to be poached by Paizo. That's awsome. I also would've thought it made a difference that WotC is approximately 100 times bigger and better funded than Paizo, that it had all sorts of alternate revenue sources that could support more personal for web based freebies. I guess I was wrong. How foolish of me.
I may not know their financials, or all of their excuses, but I know the end result and it could be better. Or does everyone here think Paizo is practically perfect in every way?
It's not that we think Paizo is perfect, it's that you make it sound much simpler than it is and are an ass.
Do you know what else would cost very little and add greatly to the community? If you would learn to communicate like a normal human instead of being passive aggressive all the time. I sorta pity you for being incapable of posting without sounding like a bratty six year old. I used to think it was intentional, but now I just believe that's really your level of emotional maturity. Your mother must have been hell.
"Takasi, if only you loved me more, you'd move out of the basement and get a job."
"Takasi, if you aren't too busy running a successful rpg company and telling Paizo how to run their business better, could you take out the garbage?"
Sad, really.
|
Well for one I think James 'Poppins' Jacobs and the rest of the guys at the Supercalifragilisticexpialidocious Paizo are doing a superior job. Mostly though I think that WoTc can afford to do online suppliments as they are backed by Hasbro and have a rather larger staff and bankroll than Paizo.
Writers whilst not being paid that well do tend to like being paid and i'd guess that the salary would work out kinda high.. Still thank you for reminding me of Mary Poppins and giving me the oppertunity to try out the smurf thing.
|
|
I remember a movie called Treasure of the Sierra Madre. Humphrey Bogart's character and others found a mother lode of gold in a mine in I believe Mexico. The story is about their descent into wickedness on transporting this gold back to civilization; they all grow paranoid of eachother gradually until they're at eachother's throats.
Now, the whole "kill the MONSTER and SPLIT THE LOOT" motif with a group of individuals who are evil takes on a new angle. In a generally good-aligned campaign this equitable division of goods is, apart from a few petty squabbles, generally a given. Not necessarily so in an evil campaign. I'm wondering, given that this motif necessarily must be upended in the service of authenticity, and also others by the same line of reasoning, how much more difficult it is to craft a decent adventure for evil characters.
I like Dr. Who. Anyone else seen all 28+ seasons?
Forgive me for offering suggestions and genuinely caring.
I guess all the people who want to play evil campaigns can try something else, because Paizo provides no AP and no adaptation notes. They can't fit them in the magazine and they can't afford to provide online supplements.
You know what's really cheap? Making your own campaign without using Paizo's products. More people choose this method. Forgive me for trying to make suggestions that will help get these gamers to subscribe. My mistake.
|
Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
|
Forgive me for offering suggestions and genuinely caring.
Forgive me for wanting you to voice those suggestions without burying insults in them. I guess if you can't distinguish between asking for something and making passive aggressive attacks, you might want to refrain from posting altogether.
You know what's really cheap? Making your own campaign without using Paizo's products. More people choose this method. Forgive me for trying to make suggestions that will help get these gamers to subscribe. My mistake.
Poor Takasi. Why are you so victimized? I feel so bad for you. It's hard to type this through the tears.
If you want more supplements, just try asking for them. I think the Paizo blog fills that need to a certain degree, and is even in a less formal style (as you have previously requested). I wouldn't mind seeing that updated more and with more substantive information. But to state that the production of free articles is a trivial matter when you don't know anything about the matter is childish b+%+#+$#.
Forgive me for offering suggestions and genuinely caring.Forgive me for wanting you to voice those suggestions without burying insults in them. I guess if you can't distinguish between asking for something and making passive aggressive attacks, you might want to refrain from posting altogether.
You know what's really cheap? Making your own campaign without using Paizo's products. More people choose this method. Forgive me for trying to make suggestions that will help get these gamers to subscribe. My mistake.Poor Takasi. Why are you so victimized? I feel so bad for you. It's hard to type this through the tears.
If you want more supplements, just try asking for them. I think the Paizo blog fills that need to a certain degree, and is even in a less formal style (as you have previously requested). I wouldn't mind seeing that updated more and with more substantive information. But to state that the production of free articles is a trivial matter when you don't know anything about the matter is childish b#%~~#@&.
Sebastian, Takasi might be passive aggressive but there is no need to be an a$$.
Let's get back on topic....
Evil can be fun to do in a game but it works best if there is only one or two evil pc's whose actions don't derail the campaign. My DM allowed me to play this manipulative basterd and even told me I would receive xp if I could convice/tempt my fellow pc's into doing evil acts.
Well the evil acts resulted in me getting killed and not getting raised because they didn't like me all that much..
In my own game I don't allow evil pc's but I will gladly give my players every opportunity to grow evil. I call it the great downward spiral....and some of them are progressing nicely
Evil AP won't sell, Evil adventure may be good for a one-shot...(?)
What's this talk about freebies from WotC? I thought that the articles are free for a limited time and soon we should pay a monthly fee to see them? I quess previews and excerpts will still be free, just like here in the blog...
|
|
Forgive me for offering suggestions and genuinely caring.Forgive me for wanting you to voice those suggestions without burying insults in them. I guess if you can't distinguish between asking for something and making passive aggressive attacks, you might want to refrain from posting altogether.
You know what's really cheap? Making your own campaign without using Paizo's products. More people choose this method. Forgive me for trying to make suggestions that will help get these gamers to subscribe. My mistake.Poor Takasi. Why are you so victimized? I feel so bad for you. It's hard to type this through the tears.
If you want more supplements, just try asking for them. I think the Paizo blog fills that need to a certain degree, and is even in a less formal style (as you have previously requested). I wouldn't mind seeing that updated more and with more substantive information. But to state that the production of free articles is a trivial matter when you don't know anything about the matter is childish b*&~##*&.
Don't worry about him, brah. He'll show up, stir up some crap, then bop over to another forum in a few weeks. He'll be back in 2-6 months, stir up some more crap, then bop off to another forum. No need to get a warning from the Postmonster; he'll get bored and move on.
|
|
To try and keep the peace, and didn't I see a post here a couple of days ago about less negativity on the board, I've done something that we all as DM's are expected to do by our players! I've posted notes on the forum in RotR about possible Evil Party plots
We expect so much from James Jacobs, Mike and other Paizonians that it sometimes looks that we DM's are too lazy to do some work for ourselves!
|
|
Another thought triggered by another poster....
How about later doing a Path that begins where RotR leaves off with another Runelord awakened and take us from 15th to 30th level if we go the 4th Edition route...
By the way I did not weigh in before on the evilness - I am not so interested in that. I believe that the players want to be the heroes of the world... Besides if they are evil do it well and are successful then what state is their little piece of heaven left in for their next party to clean up?
We expect so much from James Jacobs, Mike and other Paizonians that it sometimes looks that we DM's are too lazy to do some work for ourselves!
Wow, didn't even have to throw money around and BLAMMO. Thanks!
Back on topic ;-)
What about a mercenary scenario? Mercenaries are most of the time neutral or lawful neutral, but could as easily be NE or LE and a mix is also easy to play with. Evil PCs have a reason to work together, neutral would anyway and playing with good aligned characters should also not be too difficult if the work the PCs are hired for is not evil or if there are possibilities to do good deeds, there could be moral choice and in the end maybe the PCs have to side with a faction, could be cool cater to every style of play and not alienate anyone.
This bickering seems rather pointless. Ok so some players would like to see notes for making an AP into an evil one. Sounds fine to me - every issue has lots of space devoted to other topics. If the powers that be are interested and have an AP that looks like it would be just grand with some tweaks as an evil AP they could devote 10 or 15 pages in one of the later issues of that AP to making "Grand Slam of the Dragons AP" into a an evil themed AP.
I'd not run it myself as evil but I'm sure the ideas put forward in such an article would be of enough interest to even those that don't plan on running it as an Evil AP to justify the existence of the article.
As for an evil adventure path, I've certainly considered it, but it's unlikely to happen; evil campaigns simply aren't popular enough to justify six months of support in Pathfinder.
I understand that you need to create products for the wider audience, but from what I read on these messageboards, I am not convinced that is correct.
To address som of the things that was raised in this thread.
First, I am a "lazy" GM, and I am not doing much extra besides what is written in the adventures. This is primarily due to the fact that I don't have much time on my hand. On the other hand, I have enough $ to buy the products I want/need. The reason I am not subscribing to the GameMastery modules is because I want a campaign, not a single adventure, to ensure a minimum of work.
A lot of people in this thread believe that being an evil group, must eventually result in the players killing off each other. But why then, is there so much evil in the world, why haven't evil killed evil? Isn't it infact more the lawfull/chaotic part that ensures your ability to work together? Making reasons, guidelines as to why evil can work together is why you guys are the professionals, and you can do this much better than anyone here.
As has been pointed out here, it is funny, that the more "creepy", "evil" you make your adventures, the more interrest there are in them. If you guys made a really creepy, evil, path, with reasons as to the group should keep togehter, and not kill everything around them, I would doubt very much that the general community would hate that. An adventure where the "heroes" would feel heroic by doing evil deeds, and when the path concluded, the heroes may feel that they have saved their evil world from destruction by the forces of good.
Or, as has been suggested here, a path where the players perhaps balance in between making the right directions. A path with two outcomes, regarding to what paths the heroes chooses. Such an adventure path would be a great way to get a feeler on how many groups would actually choose the dark side, when tempted. Of course, there should be some heavy restrictions on the character creations. The group should have equal opportunity to choose directions, and to do that paladins just wouldn't do in such a campaign. A path where choosen either side should be rewarding.
Last, regarding the idea of just converting as an example RotRL to an evil campaign. I am not suggesting this because I want evil for any price. I want a campaign designed for the evil guys to see a world where the means of the good might not be that much better than the means of evil. Now I obiously haven't read Pathfinder #6 yet, but stopping the runelords just seem a bit good aligned heroic, and making it evil for the sake, would not make me as a player save Sandpoint from goblins, or to help retake a fort occupied by ogres. It just doesn't make sense.
Last, regarding the idea of just converting as an example RotRL to an evil campaign. I am not suggesting this because I want evil for any price. I want a campaign designed for the evil guys to see a world where the means of the good might not be that much better than the means of evil. Now I obiously haven't read Pathfinder #6 yet, but stopping the runelords just seem a bit good aligned heroic, and making it evil for the sake, would not make me as a player save Sandpoint from goblins, or to help retake a fort occupied by ogres. It just doesn't make sense.
This is why is suggested shifting the focus to sin magic and the seven sins. The runelords controlled a large empire and enslaved giants and dragons. A group of evil PCs who seek the secrets of ancient Thassilon to emulate their achievements is a believable goal. They will not care much about saving Sandpoint, but it is a convenient place to rest/replenish supplies (plus it's hard to build an empire without subjects). Also, they will be interested in eliminating/co-opting rivals and unraveling the use of the Sihedron rune.
|
Creative Director
|
There's a huge difference between vile and creepy and evil bad guys for your good guys to defeat and an evil adventure path.
But in any case, we ARE watching the boards and our emails. If there's a call for an evil adventure path, we'll do it. I'm just not seeing that call from our readers yet.
Does a smurf avatar show if you say the word smurf?
|
RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16
|
I understand that you need to create products for the wider audience, but from what I read on these messageboards, I am not convinced that is correct.
I imagine that Paizo has done some market research to support their belief that they would lose sales. We often see what we want to see on the Message boards or among our friends. Such "evidence" is rarely of any substantive value, as we tend to add importance to what we agree with and minimize that which we don't.