18%
I'll be sticking with 3.5...ask me to tell you why someday...
Thank God the gaming community is starting to question this corporate insanity... I remember back in the day, every other gaming article or book went out of its way to include a short lecture on the importance of "role-playing" and story. Somewhere between then and now, it became trendy to refer to such elements as "fluff"! To me that sounds like Orwellian doublespeak calculated to sell new rules. Ironically, the only things that endure between some edition changes are story and world background, so I would have to argue that those ingredients are the real "crunch".
Now don't get me wrong-- I love hack-n-slash as much as anyone, and I finally got converted to 3e in 2003. As I understand it, 1st-ed. lasted some 11 or 12 years (I wasn't around for that), and 2nd-ed. was also on for about 12 years. Why is 4th-ed. coming out after only 8.5 years? This is an art, not genetic engineering or artificial intelligence technology. 3.0/3.5 was supposedly scientifically-formulated, and it's pretty brilliant. But I really hope that today, no one buys the idea that the system is ever going to be "perfected". Are gamers going ADD? (I thought we would be more likely to go OCD than ADD!). Have they bought into that Mayan calendar stuff?!
God willing, I will continue to play separate 2nd ed. and 3rd ed. campaigns until 2012. The new Paizo adventures look good; I will support Paizo products as long as they stick to 3rd-ed.
I just changed my vote to 3rd edition only.
What I learned Hasbro is doing to the classes on EN world is why.
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Nani? Linky please! :)What I learned Hasbro is doing to the classes on EN world is why.
Now on to the classes-five are detailed in length in the book. Presumably, these are the classes that will definitely make the first Player’s Handbook:
Cleric: One major change the cleric has undergone is that in addition to spells he or she will also possess rituals and healing prayers, which will encompass most of the healing spells the cleric possessed in 3E. (Presumably, these will be at-will, per-encounter or per-day abilities.) Consequently, cleric spells will now mostly involve buffs and combat spells (and a great many brand-new spells have been created for the cleric). Also, all classes will possess the ability to heal themselves to some degree (possibly the SW Saga Ed. second wind?), and Leaders are able to grant an increase to this ability. In sum, clerics will no longer be called upon to heal as much as they used to, and will be able to participate in battles more. It is also stated that clerics will not be as powerful vis-à-vis the other classes as they were in 3E, and that summoning spells have been removed from their spell lists (likely to appear in a later volume).
Fighter: In addition to receiving powers akin to the maneuvers in Tome of Battle, they will have a number of other abilities to increase their hardiness, “stickiness” (meaning the difficulty foes encounter in getting past/around them) and armor proficiency (they will have the exclusive ability to retain a greater amount of their Dex bonus than other classes while wearing heavy armor). Feats and fighter powers will allow a sword & shield fighter to accumulate greater AC bonuses and the ability to defend others.
Rogue: Not too much has changed—sneak attack will still be vital for this class, but it will be even easier to set up. Virtually all monsters can be sneak attacked now, even golems and such. Rogues will still be the most skill-based characters, but the skill list has been streamlined and cut in half as it was in SW Saga Ed. (Hide and Sneak are one skill, etc.).
Warlocks: In 4E, these are arcane Strikers, able to do a great deal of damage to one or two foes at a time. They can align themselves with fey spirits, devils, demons or the “stars and the darkness between them.” Their abilities will include transportation effects, invocations, curses and a powerful melee attack called Soul Ruin. They also have the ability to use Pacts, meaning that it looks like they absorbed the Binder, and each Pact will grant per-encounter curses.
Wizards: Schools of magic are gone, replaced by foci (orb, staff, wand, with more to come in later books possibly). The orb foci involves terrain control and retributive and perception effects, staves ranged blasting, and wands long distance control and defense. In addition to spells, wizards will also possess rituals that deal with item creation. Metamagic feats are gone, though spells can still be boosted by Wizard powers and other feats. In addition, since characters can buy any kind of feats they want, it is mentioned that you could turn a Wizard into a 3E-style Warmage or Duskblade by buying weapon, armor and melee attack feats, as 4E Wizards no longer suffer from arcane spell failure in armor.
Following this, there is a section on “Other Classes,” with a few short notes about the other classes which were not so developed at the time the book was finished:
Barbarians: The 4E Barbarian will be all about the rage, with many different rage effects to choose from. They will also be more feral—one cited barbarian ability involves him biting his opponent after his melee attack.
Paladins: Their powers are being completely redone, as the designers felt they were lacking in 3E (notably the Smite ability). Unsurprisingly, they will possess several different kinds of smiting abilities.
Bards: Drawing their powers from “otherworldly patrons,” Bards will possess many abilities related to illusion and mental trickery. They will retain their inspirational and lore knowledge abilities.
Druids: The 4E Druid will heavily emphasize sharp-changing abilities, and will possess a spell list with ranged firepower and utility effects.
Monk: Not much has changed-will probably be designed as a Striker.
Rangers: Also seem little unchanged.
Sorcerers: It is stated that Sorcerers will barely be in control of their magical abilities, but whether or not this means they’ll function somewhat like wild mages is unclear. It does mention that a Sorcerer who casts a cold spell might have a protective aura of freezing cold around him afterwards for a short while.
Swordmage: Arcane Defenders who use magical protection as opposed to armor. They are designed as melee specialists with few ranged attack powers.
Warlord: Much as described before, but they also mention an example of a Warlord power called “Feather Me Yon Oaf!” (they often use humorous titles as stand-ins until they come up with the real one). When the Warlord uses this ability, his allies get an immediate action to draw a missile weapon and shoot the Warlord’s designated target.
If it's this he's talking about; it's off of the ENWorld 4e. news on their opening page, for Monday, Dec 10, 2007.
I'll be sticking with 3.5...ask me to tell you why someday...
Curiosity. It is every good* rogues' weakness. Why?
*
;)
Well everything I have seen about 4th Edition looks good. Much as I love 3.5, it has loads of flaws and plays very slowly at times. They know this and have from what I read have addressed pretty much all the issues for the next edition - grapple, high levels and aoo to name but three.
Can't wait, but I'd like to be able to trade in my 3.5 books:)
I was thinking of getting a "pathfinder" subscription, but if they change to 4.0 for the third adventure path what will I do with the new books? Glossy paper makes bad TP.
You could stop your subs beforehand, since it's a month-to-month sub.
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I am already working on my 4e campaign setting.
I expect based on what I saw with Star Wars Saga Edition that there will be some nice improvements to 3.X D&D with 4e.
It also helps that the group I am playing with for the most part also wants to move to 4e.
For reference... we are a group of 30 somethings that meet every other week for a game.
3.5 was a great improvement over the previous editions, but it has its problems. From what I have read on the design and development sites it looks to me like 4e will be a step in the right direction.
I am still VERY DISAPPOINTED in what WOTC has had to offer with their Dragon and Dungeon online offerings. I miss my monthly Dungeon and Dragon mags in the mail.
I think WoTC rolled a 4 for their digital INIATIVE.
While I will look at 4th edition, I'm pretty fed up with WotC (read: Chris Perkins and his ego and Rich Baker, Chris Perkins yes man) who are so inept that they have to kill the Forgotten Realms and start over. I'll likely use 2nd and 3.5 to game with unless 4th is just fantastic.
What edition of D&D do you currently expect to be playing at the end of 2008?
OD&D(1974).
like i have been for years.
3.5; still, same as now.
I may play 4e with my friends if it comes up and someone else wants to run.
If I run, most likely, it'll be 3.5. The drastic changes in the core concepts of the game means that my accumulated campaign will not be compatible with 4e, and that's a non-starter for me.
Well, seeing as first they release a Players Handbook, and then you have to wait around for the DMG (not much point running without the DMs rules) and then you have to wait longer for the monsters (who knows what they have done to DR and regen) I will probably end up waiting a long time. Taste the waters and poke around.
Perhaps the biggest sell would be if they can recapture the flavor and fun of the second ed Wild Mage...
The group I play in already has made clear that they don't expect to be purchasing a whole new set of books for 4th edition. I haven't yet seen a compelling need to switch.
Joseph wrote:
"Well, seeing as first they release a Players Handbook, and then you have to wait around for the DMG (not much point running without the DMs rules) and then you have to wait longer for the monsters (who knows what they have done to DR and regen)"
At first they said the core books were coming out at a rate of one per month, then they changed it to all at once, did it change again and I miss the announcement?
I'm considering leaving D&D all together.
Naaaaaa...
Really, though, I'm thinking about this thing called 'Grimm'...
Each change made to D&D has improved the over all game. I remember everybody bi*<#ing about the change from Advanced Dungeons & Dragons to 2nd edition. The same happened with the change from 2nd to 3E. Just 2 years ago I was speaking with someone who still plays 2nd edition because he doesn't like 3e or 3.5. I asked him what he didn't like about it. He couldn't answer because he NEVER played 3e or 3.5. I see a lot of closed mindedness about 4e. I sincerely hope that 4e succeeds, for if it doesn't it would be the real end of an era for the game that started it all to die off like that. I am sure those working on this edition understand it could mean their careers (who in gaming wants to hire someone associated with the end of DnD?). I will check out the new system, but with a critical eye. If it is broken hopeful it will be repairable, if not then I will need to look to find a system that works until they fix it. If you are against 4e without looking at the finished product instead of this teaser crap that is fine. As for me (and I hope Paizo) I will give it a shot. I will continue the adventure path in 3.5 and looking to see what 4e brings to the table. I also heard they are bring back THAC0
I have to agree with Stormways, as I think that Dulplication preceeds understanding.
How can a person make a judgement on something they have limited data on?
I still think it will totally suck and be the death of mainstream PnP D and D, but im just not saying that out loud.
Since our group is made up of old guys who've been playing since the mid-1970's, we're stopping with 3.5. We've come to the conclusion that we are no longer hip. So out are coming a few to dust off (Savage Worlds, Shadowrun) and some new ones to try (Monte Cook's WoD, Scion) and some miniature scenarios.
"And the game remains the same"
(Insert strange eurotrash accent here)
"3rd Edition. You'll have to pry the core books from my cold, undead hands."
And always remember: Reduce, Reuse, Reanimate.
I and my group will be making the change to 4th edition as soon as the books are out. We will be wrapping up Rise of the Runelords around june and will make a trip to Star Wars while i will be changing the next pathfinder to 4th
we just made the desicion after reading the races and classes preview, all very excited about what is going on at WOTC
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RPG Superstar 2013
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I still expect to be playing 4e, but WotC could most certainly snatch defeat from the jaws of victory.
WoTC is changing editions to increase the market size for DnD, so I think that strategy, combined with the minds they have working on the new system, means we're gona like 4E more than some people expect.
A lot of people hated the idea of 3E and made the same arguments. Kind of like the first 'war for oil' that we didn't get any oil from. But it turns out WoTC might have saved DnD and RPGs in general with the change, and the system is a huge improvement over all previous DnD.
My money is on them finding how to keep everyone happy. A lot of my dollars go to Paizo regardless, and I reserve the right to abandon any game that abandons it longtime fans, but I don't anticipate that.
I expect to be playing and running 4E exclusively by the end of summer.
As Sebastian says above, it is possible for the whole thing to go badly. In which case I look to Paizo to bring the hobby back from the ashes.
this is a tough I love paizo, but I really like what they doing for 4th. 3.5 has allot of flaws and can lag at times.
So I am hoping to be playing 4.0, I am hoping paizo will make the switch too.
And if 4.0 kills DnD than I will be begging paizo to give me something.
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I've been playing D&D, in its many and varied forms, since 1981. I feel I have had some experience with the woe and weal of change. I've spent a tidy sum over the past twenty plus on books, modules, adventures, miniatures, and accessories. I've gone from pinching pennies as a teen to buy a hardcover AD&D book with two free modules "holiday pack" to dropping nearly forty dollars last weekend for yet another tome that held maybe four pages of material I truly wanted to possess. Looking at my current 3.5 collection, I have over $1100 in hardbacks alone. Add to that the hordes of prepainted plastic miniatures, a few dozen modules yet to be Dm'ed, nearly a decade of regularly collected Dragon and Dungeon mags from my local retailer, the "Return to" adventures, gthe typical Crown Royal bag o' dice, and all the other miscellaneous things that make playing D&D such an important part of my happiness. Little of it over the years has really been regretted, or regrettable. I am a gamer at heart, and for me that passion has been most strongly kindled by Dungeons and Dragons.
That being said, the day to days of life are striving to take hold over me and I feel evermore resentful of changing merely for the sake of change or the pressures of someone else's market. My funds are stretched as tightly as my time, and something must give. I cannot see myself trading out my current gaming library for yet another ruleset I didn't seek out in the first place. I have not the patience to relearn the wheel. With all good things, a little pain must come, this I know. Version 3.5 has its flaws, but for those with the will there is the way. What doesn't work has always been homeruled into a workable, enjoyable system. I will remain ever loyal to what I have, to what I own, to what I love. Should the game pass me by, then so be it, that is the way of the world. The old must give way that the new may flourish. Good luck 4E, I wish you well. Just remember, D&D V is right around the corner and coming oh so fast.
I have seen 6 versions of my favorite hobby to date. Basic Dungeons and Dragons with 4 companion boxsets, Advanced Dungeons and Dragons, AD&D Second Edition, 2E Skills and Powers, 3.0, and now 3.5. All have come and gone, seemingly in the blink of an eye. I have played them all, enjoyed something about them all, but here and now I make my stand. I will be here with my friends and party of happy go lucky treasure seekers, dusting off the Danger at Dunwater, delving into the Sunless Citadel, or standing before the Red Hand of Doom. All lovingly converted to 3.5, decked with treasure specific item cards from Paizo (love those BTW), mapped with various dungeon tiles, and mini'd out to beat the band. Sure, we'll be playing that old dorky version of D&D, but we'll be laughing, joking, tossing dice for the last slice, and by god we'll be loving every minute of it.
That's what D&D is for me, and that is what 3.5 has become for us. Well that's my two cents. Happy New Year everyone, with whatever 2008 brings.
Wow Douglas! What a great post.
Prety much my own thoughts and experiances written out for me.
Thank you...And Happy New Year.
All that I'm sure of is that my AoW games that's wrapping up right now will be my last 3.5 game. This high level crap is for the birds. And I'm tired of alignment being tied into the mechanics of the game. The prestige class idea isn't all it's cracked up to be and cleric spell lists makes me angry (they need a shorter list to pick from, both for my cleric player's sanity and my poor printer).
I voted the jury is still out, as I don't think anyone can generate a feasible opinion on what little we've seen so far, especially outside the context of the game as a whole. Fear of change and spite are understandable, however.
I'll be starting a M&M game after AoW, and after that I'm looking at WFRP. 4E will be firmly established by the time I consider playing it, I'm not too sure if that will be by the end of the year or not though.
I like what I've read so far in R&C, however. I'll be getting the 4E core books when they are released (and regardless of what I like or don't, just the core books, no more crunch splats for me, another lesson learned from 3.x) and save judgment for when I can properly form an opinion.
I imagine I'll make the jump to 4e eventually. However I'll be sticking to 3.5
Roleplaying is highly uncommon here, and I just now was able to train a new batch of players on 3rd edition. In fact, I've been studying the editions for years with nobody to play with. From the little I do know though, is that 4th edition will probably be almost just like 3rd. Mostly with corrections to game balance with rules about enemy damage reductions and spell descriptions and such. I'm sure there will be a couple big enough changes to warrant calling it fourth edition, but even so I don't see it really taking off until well into 2009. Even so, will the corebooks for 4th be really necessary? I'm sure experienced players and Dm's will just need to know what changes have happened...
Then again, I haven't gotten much of a preview about 4e. This is all my crazy speculation from what I've gathered from hearsay, so I'm going to go learn more about it right now.
I imagine content will easily be convertible, but technically I'll be using the 3.5 sytem for awhile (especially with all these nice clearance sales!)
...From the little I do know though, is that 4th edition will probably be almost just like 3rd. Mostly with corrections to game balance with rules about enemy damage reductions and spell descriptions and such...
I'm sure there will be a couple big enough changes to warrant calling it fourth edition...
...will the corebooks for 4th be really necessary? I'm sure experienced players and Dm's will just need to know what changes have happened...
Then again, I haven't gotten much of a preview about 4e. This is all my crazy speculation from what I've gathered from hearsay, so I'm going to go learn more about it right now.
I imagine content will easily be convertible...
I dont have the heart to tell him. :(
Since hes going to go learn more about it right now I guess he'll know soon enough.
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Just to break radio silence and put in my two cents...
I will play 3.5 and my whole group is firmly set that we have spent enough on our many hundreds of dollars book collection to make this change. We didn'tappreciate the loss of the investment when 3.0 became 3.5 but we quickly embraced that new system becasue it was close enough that our existing library of books from 3.0 were easily integrated. Now I can't afford to recreate the library and 4e will not be compatible at all. D&D is a creative enterprise and while being in the current rule set makes the setup easier because new stuff is readily available, we are smart people and our current library has infinite possibilities.
Further, we also firmly hope that Paizo stays with 3.5. If they stay with 3.5, I will stay because I like the regular "fix" of new ideas and it will keep making the setup easy (and Pathfinder so far is GREAT). I was with Dungeon since before Paizo so I am pretty loyal to the "fix". However, if someone is counting the 4e naysayeers; my subscription will end when the content switches. I have invested too much to re-learn yet another ruleset and we are having a lot of fun with the current rules.
Paizo really needs to go in the direction of their authors though. The authors are your lifeblood.
Been mulling this over for months. Originally picked 3rd Edition, but I might have cold, undead hands. I have decided that I am truly a loyal Paizoite so I am going where Paizo goes. If it is 4th Edition, then I'll grudgingly buy the core books. Go Go Go Golarion.
Since hes going to go learn more about it right now I guess he'll know soon enough.
Oh I found out...*sob*
Wow...
3.5 (no pun intended) months later and the split is still about the same:
Those claiming to stick with 3.X
Is roughly equal to
Those claiming to switch plus those vowing to follow Paizo plus those claiming to wait an see.
I am curious how indicative this is of the full hobby base...
I just thought I'd announce I'm changing my vote. I had been in the 'I go where Paizo goes' camp. Now I'm in the 3.5 camp. The more I learn about 4E, the more I expect it to be WoW, but slower.
I'm confident that Paizo won't switch if 4E turns out to be as bad as it looks, and the fact of the matter is I'll still probably buy Pathfinder and GM Modules either way.
3.5 isn't perfect. But 4E is really pissing me off. I expect to be playing 3.5 until I've fully run SCAP, AoW, STAP, RotRL, and CotCT. In other words, I'm set for a few years.
Just incase anyone is wondering, I still expect to play 3.5 at the end of this year. I still have absolutely no intention to pick up the 4E PHB.
So, bye-bye, Dungeons & Dragons
Keepin my old edition 3.5
The new one seems to be high and dry
And them good old boys were a rolling twenty sided die
making saves or die
This'll be the edition I'll not buy
Changed my vote, I won't follow where Paizo goes. If they go 4E I will regretfully have to cancel my subscriptions.
Same here. The most recent batch of news have pushed me over.
I might be persuaded otherwise, but only if they can guarantee me that I'll be able to play gnomes, half-orcs, druids, and all that with pathfinder without having to buy anything from Wizards except the core books. This means, that if I have to buy extra books or subscribe to the DDI and pay them for classic races and classes that were core in 3e and are in the SRD right now, I'm definetly out
So, if Paizo goes 4e, they better be quick with those 3.5 conversations they were talking about, I I'm afraid I have to cancel all my subscriptions, too. For me, this is in part a matter of principle.
Ross, Fakey,
Welcome to the Grognard generation!
Gah! I'm only 22! I'm too young to be the crotchety old guy!
Edit: Not that long ago, Heathensson made a post where he figured out why 'This isn't your father's D&D' from the 4E junk sounded so terrible to him. They weren't talking to him. They were talking to his son. My father never played D&D either, but as I said above, I'm 22. I don't have children (don't plan to either, but that's another story), but apparently I'm old enough that Wizards considers me too old for their shiny new game.
Gah! I'm only 22! I'm too young to be the crotchety old guy!
Why am I getting flashbacks from Lethal Weapon movies? ("I'm not to old for this s***" -Riggs and Murtaugh)
EDIT: The first time you yell, "Hey you kids! Get off my lawn!" is the hardest. After that, it gets easier. BTW, I'm about to turn 30 so I am fighting it even more then you are. ;)