The 4E treatment has opened my eyes.


4th Edition


I just wanted to mention that all this hoopla from WotC about 4e has given me the motivation to do something I never really considered before. I had played GURPS (2E?), Star Wars (WEG and D20), 2E AD&D, 3.0 and 3.5 D&D. I don't object to the concept of 4E just the way I have been treated about 4E. I don't like being lied to (about the possibility of 4E coming out before 2009), talked down to, or not being allowed to make an informed decision.

But enough of that it has been said over and over and if WotC hasn't caught the hint then maybe this will. Since the announcement for 4E I have expanded my reading. I am now going to be purchasing Shadow run 4E and World of Darkness 4E instead of 4E DnD when it comes out. I must thank WotC as I might not have done this if it wasn't for them. I will now continue to explore other system options as well as possibly look at 4E D&D (in a few years). They squandered my loyalty and really I am looking forward to playing gritty street running, using the force (D6 beats D20 any day in my book) and playing werewolves (and possibly exploring changeling).

So I wanted to know anyone else having the same experience? And if so what systems are catching your interest. I can always use the assistance in finding good games.


I tend to stick to d20 variations rather than learning and converting other rule systems for my game (yeah, I can hear the groans already). I think Midnight and The Black Company Campaign Setting introduced some interesting concepts mainly in the magic systems and less so alignment. I just picked up some secondhand Iron Heroes stuff and would like to get my hands on Iron Kingdoms. I heard that Thieves World d20 did some interesting things with spell failure but I never could get into the original series so I'm not sure how much effort I want to go to picking up the setting.

While I'll always look bad fondly on 1e, I think the last 5-7 years will be considered the Golden Age of gaming. There really is a wealth of material out there, both in d20 and alternate systems. Its a great time to try out other things.


I understand your feelings against the way Wizards has been handling 4e. However, I've been trying to keep up the hope that Wizards is just having a really bad time with advertising 4e, because 3.0 and 3.5e both went well enough along, and I don't see why they would completely change everything and suddenly become such a poor company.

I felt they were in a decline before, but I linked this to the shallow puddle of ideas left for 3.5e. I'm going to get the 4e core books and see if the way the Wizards employees and advertisers have been operating are just pre-4e problems.


Yes it is a shame that Wotc coast has lied to so many loyal D&D fans in the past few years... However like Archlich I have moved on and now play nWoD. If in a few years I can find group of people that would enjoy D&D in its 4th Edition than I may try it.

Liberty's Edge

I felt the same way at first. The ridiculous sudden announcement of 4e, disabling part of their site so that its announcement is in your face, saying so very much about it without saying anything at all. The fiasco of its announcement at the convention made me gag.

Since then I've found a fairly decent constructive forum to discuss it (ENWorld) and peruse the staff blogs to get what info I can. They do give some info, just not a lot. But that's understandable at this point.

I ignore any announcements that overadvertise and overhype it. It's a waste of energy. I'll also ignore any attempts to trivialize previous editions just to make 4E seem like heaven's answer to gaming. They (the designers, supposedly the people who love playing the game as much as we do) appear to be taking some real strides to make 4E a much better iteration of the rules overall. I consider them separately from Wizards at this point. Wizards is the evil corporate money making machine, but the designers appear to be listening to us, and making a game they want to play as much as Wizards wants to sell. As long as that is the case, I'll keep it in consideration.


MaxSlasher26 wrote:
I understand your feelings against the way Wizards has been handling 4e. However, I've been trying to keep up the hope that Wizards is just having a really bad time with advertising 4e, because 3.0 and 3.5e both went well enough along, and I don't see why they would completely change everything and suddenly become such a poor company...

It's not just bad advertising. They've shown (IMO) a fairly blatant contempt for their customers -- lying to us can be interpreted in no other way, though many of us have other shining examples.

I expect 4/e to be a good system, and I predict they will do well with it, but it'll be a while before they get any more of my money; I hope others feel the same way. WotC just haven't shown themselves (the leadership, at least) to be worthy of our patronage.

Fortunately for me, I have enough 3.5 stuff to last for years :)

Lantern Lodge

ZioKai wrote:
I have moved on and now play nWoD.

Dejavu.

I purchased a library worth of World of Darkness' original setting. When they tossed it all in and released it's current incarnation, whole bloodlines, clans, traditions etc of vamps, wolves and mages just vapourised, and new ones appeared. They changed too much of the setting for my liking, mostly the characters and their backgrounds, which are the meat of any player. So I decided right then and there not to move across with them. WhiteWolf betrayed my trust then, as many claim WotC are doing now.

Yet, I have a better feeling about the transition from 3.5 to 4.0 than I did with the WoD changes. I guess on the one hand, I really couldn't see the benefit of the WoD changes, it seemed too much like change for the sake of change. On the other hand, 4.0 seems like a whole new game. It's certainly not an upgrade from 3.5, it's fantasy using a new set of rules, it's a whole new game. For this reason, I think I can appreciate 4.0 as a different game, while still playing 3.5. 4.0 doesn't really encourage me to migrate my game across or convert as previous editions did, as much as it allows me to branch off, now playing two different games.


ArchLich wrote:
...or not being allowed to make an informed decision.

I've heard a lot of complaints about 4e. Raging over the changes that are upcoming, seething over the contempt that folks are perceiving from WotC to their customer base, and the anger over the cancellation of Dungeon and Dragon magazines.

But this one just makes me go "Huh?" And here's why:

The product (4e) won't even start to hit the shelves until May 2008.

So how on earth are you not being allowed to make an informed decision? How can you possibly make an informed decision until sometime in or after May 2008? Consider, first off, that everything between now and May is most certainly going to be marketing spin. WotC is going to leak everything they can to make it sound cool and exciting and make you want to buy it, as best as they know how. But that isn't going to be much. It's certainly not going to be enough for you to make any kind of informed decision.

You cannot, and should not, hope to make an informed decision until you can hold the final product in your hands and view all the material for yourself.

Instead, you (you in specific, and you in the general sense) should take everything that comes out between now and May 2008 with a grain of salt. Understand that it can and may well change between now and then. Understand that you're /not/ going to get all that much data on what they're doing until the final product hits the shelves. I mean, it would kind of go against the purpose of trying to sell a product to put everything in your hands without having to buy it.

And really, WotC isn't doing anything, marketing wise, that I haven't seen with video games. They slowly leak out information about gameplay and what's 'new' in the 'sequel' to make us think that it's really going to be something awesome or cool (which some of us will -and have- certainly think sucks and just not for us). Only, with D&D, we have one very obvious advantage over buying a video game. We get to go into our FLGS, put that book in our hands, and /see/ all the levels and information for ourselves. We have the complete strategy guide, the behind the scenes information of how this or that works, /everything/. All the information we need to decide whether the game is really for us before we buy it. A video game doesn't give us that. We have to buy it on faith, take it home, put it in our console, and only /then/ find out if it sucks or not.


DarkWhite wrote:
ZioKai wrote:
I have moved on and now play nWoD.

Dejavu.

I purchased a library worth of World of Darkness' original setting. When they tossed it all in and released it's current incarnation, whole bloodlines, clans, traditions etc of vamps, wolves and mages just vapourised, and new ones appeared. They changed too much of the setting for my liking, mostly the characters and their backgrounds, which are the meat of any player. So I decided right then and there not to move across with them.

For some reason, this thought never occurred to me but looking at my bookshelves, it is quite apt. I bought heavily into the original WoD and have not made the switch to the nWoD, sticking with the original. I intend to do much the same with D&D and stick with 3.5. Good analogy!


I hope you don't think that TSR never lied out their ass to you, or that any other company wouldn't do the same thing in WoTC's same position. Because they would; it doesn't make sense for them to do anything else. You'd do it, too. Saying 'btw, we're working on 4E' two, three years ago when work began in earnest would have torpedoed pretty much every product for the next two years. You'd do that? Your company could live through two years or more of what would probably be extremely shallow sales?


Wayne Ligon wrote:


I hope you don't think that TSR never lied out their ass to you, or that any other company wouldn't do the same thing in WoTC's same position. Because they would; it doesn't make sense for them to do anything else. You'd do it, too. Saying 'btw, we're working on 4E' two, three years ago when work began in earnest would have torpedoed pretty much every product for the next two years.

I think every tells a lie even if they try not to. And I don't think I would have told anyone that I was working on 4E either. Of course not. But if I said no new addition at least till (insert date here) I would have tried my best to keep to that or completely understand that I was a liar and admit to it. After all that sort of honesty along with an apology and an explanation would reassure my customer base that I care and am doing my best. That's all I'm saying.

Xellan wrote:

ArchLich wrote:

...or not being allowed to make an informed decision.

I've heard a lot of complaints about 4e. Raging over the changes that are upcoming, seething over the contempt that folks are perceiving from WotC to their customer base, and the anger over the cancellation of Dungeon and Dragon magazines.

But this one just makes me go "Huh?"

Also I can understand that. It is not that I think they should release all the information to me. I just want them to not dance around the truth and be honest about what they can and cannot tell me. I want the information they can give me with out ruining their product or marketing strategy.

I would be quite happy with an honest "I'm sorry but we can't explain the exact details of that right now. Please be patient as we will release the details as we can. But I can say this... (insert details not unclear story or tale)"

Honesty goes a long way.


We can go round and round as to whether or not WotC was justified in it's behaviour to it's customers. I can see the point of not depressing sales by announcing 4th ed, but flatly denying the prospect while hawking more rule-centric product is just not on. Perception is everything, and right now the perception of Wizards by a sizable proportion of it's consumer base is pretty lousy.

Scarab Sages

Most of these posts really belong in the other threads.
Forget what the OP said about his reasons for not wanting to buy 4E, and just take it as given.
The point of this thread was (and should stick to) "What other systems are people going to try over the next 1-2 years?"

I plan to run Age of Worms, but if, for any reason that falls through, I have a lot of d20/OGL product to try out.

I'm also intrigued by Alternity; many of the rule concepts I found (as a player) quite elegant.
The skill-system, which allowed anyone to buy any skill, but at differing cost, dependent on a PC's theme. This carried through into 3E D&D (class & cross-class skills), but here was much more varied.
The freeform levelling up, which allowed you to buy skills, 'feats' or extra vitality.
The fact that stuns/wounds/mortals were based on starting race and stats, not a random roll, and did not rise each level (unless you forgo buying skills). You survived combat by wearing armour, or by not getting hit.
And the skill-resolution system, which was based on a roll of a base d20, +/- a situational die, aiming to score under the skill value. There were different levels of success, if you rolled under half or a quarter skill level. Circumstance bonuses/penalties affected the TYPE of situational die, rather than the target numbers. This I found quite innovative, as it allowed for the possibility of heroics, without making them overly likely. A skilled PC could score a Regular success with a roll of (d20-d10), and still (theoretically) be beaten by an unskilled PC with a Good success rolled on (d20+d10), but it would be rare. I found this more satisfying for the flavour of stories I preferred, than the d20 (roll opposed d20 + mods), which becomes a done deal after a certain point.


Snorter wrote:


Most of these posts really belong in the other threads.
Forget what the OP said about his reasons for not wanting to buy 4E, and just take it as given.
The point of this thread was (and should stick to) "What other systems are people going to try over the next 1-2 years?"

I plan to run Age of Worms, but if, for any reason that falls through, I have a lot of d20/OGL product to try out.

Good point. I just wanted to address some other peoples concerns but yes I would also like to run Age of Worms and other 3.5 modules and home brew campaigns (an evil mercenary type short campaign and an oriental campaign) still as well. Haven't left D&D behind completely just not jumping to 4E right away.

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Pathfinder Accessories, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Charter Superscriber
Unmentioned wrote:
I hope you don't think that TSR never lied out their ass to you, or ...

Um, lets keep the language a bit more elevated around here so we don't degenerate into the WotC boards...even though there is some precedence for it and it is my favorite word...


At this point my plan is to try a couple of one night stands with some D20 variant systems. Assuming I can get the people together for an afternoon I plan on trying Labrynth Lord (a throw back to 1st Edition), Blue Rose (which uses the True20 system), and Castles and Crusades. I will probably start with Labrynth Lord since a PDF of the rules is available for free from EnWorld and it will be quicker and easier to get my friends back into the swing of roleplaying with it.

If I can get the spare cash together than I would like to pick up the first Pathfinder or a Gamemastery module or two and maybe for Christmas I will pick up the Ptolus campaign book (or maybe just the pdf). It all depends on how much eye-rolling from my wife I feel like dealing with.


Do I even need to say it?


Aaron Whitley wrote:
and maybe for Christmas I will pick up the Ptolus campaign book (or maybe just the pdf). It all depends on how much eye-rolling from my wife I feel like dealing with.

Can I just recommend you get the actual Ptolus hardcover, rather than the pdf. There's a reason this just won the Gold Ennie. This is D&D's Sistine Chapel, and the price is actually quite cheap considering the page count (well over 800 pp); plus you get a CD w/ it. Everything about it screams quality. I can't imagine any DM not loving this book.


CourtFool wrote:
Do I even need to say it?

You mean, "A Hero ain't nothin' but a sandwich"? :)


I've heard a lot of complaints about 4e. Raging over the changes that are upcoming, seething over the contempt that folks are perceiving from WotC to their customer base, and the anger over the cancellation of Dungeon and Dragon magazines.

But this one just makes me go "Huh?" And here's why:

The product (4e) won't even start to hit the shelves until May 2008.

So how on earth are you not being allowed to make an informed decision? How can you possibly make an informed decision until sometime in or after May 2008? Consider, first off, that everything between now and May is most certainly going to be marketing spin. WotC is going to leak everything they can to make it sound cool and exciting and make you want to buy it, as best as they know how. But that isn't going to be much. It's certainly not going to be enough for you to make any kind of informed decision.

You cannot, and should not, hope to make an informed decision until you can hold the final product in your hands and view all the material for yourself.

Instead, you (you in specific, and you in the general sense) should take everything that comes out between now and May 2008 with a grain of salt. Understand that it can and may well change between now and then. Understand that you're /not/ going to get all that much data on what they're doing until the final product hits the shelves. I mean, it would kind of go against the purpose of trying to sell a product to put everything in your hands without having to buy it.

And really, WotC isn't doing anything, marketing wise, that I haven't seen with video games. They slowly leak out information about gameplay and what's 'new' in the 'sequel' to make us think that it's really going to be something awesome or cool (which some of us will -and have- certainly think sucks and just not for us). Only, with D&D, we have one very obvious advantage over buying a video game. We get to go into...

Disagree with much that you said, but in an attempt to be expedient, here's the chief reason why I disagree: When a video game company markets their sequel ie: Halo3, Final Fantasy "blank+1", etc..., they do tell you what's gonna be cool about it. What they DO NOT tell you is how much Halo, Halo 2 , Final Fantasy 1-100 (or whatever they are on now) SUCKED A** and why you should totally expunge all memories from your brain.

To do what the arrogant a-holes on the 4E design team are doing is basically to urinate on all the great work and effort of the previous designers. It's fine to say that "we never really liked how such-and-such worked," but to say it was all garbage (which if you read between the lines is what they are doing) is insulting to not just the previous designers, but the customer base and long-time fans as well.


Jim Helbron wrote:

Disagree with much that you said, but in an attempt to be expedient, here's the chief reason why I disagree: When a video game company markets their sequel ie: Halo3, Final Fantasy "blank+1", etc..., they do tell you what's gonna be cool about it. What they DO NOT tell you is how much Halo, Halo 2 , Final Fantasy 1-100 (or whatever they are on now) SUCKED A** and why you should totally expunge all memories from your brain.

To do what the arrogant a-holes on the 4E design team are doing is basically to urinate on all the great work and effort of the previous designers. It's fine to say that "we never really liked how such-and-such worked," but to say it was all garbage (which if you read between the lines is what they are doing) is insulting to not just the previous designers, but the customer base and long-time fans as well.

Which wasn't really the issue I was addressing; the only point I was trying to make is that overall we aren't being given any less information than we could realistically expect with a bit over 7 months to release, /and/ that until the release of the product, we can't expect to make any kind of informed decision. We're being given 'screenshots' in the form of flavor text from races and classes, reviews of gameplay, etc... So I went with the video game analogy.

Unlike a video game, however, when we go to the store and put the product into our hands, we can flip through the pages and view /all/ the information right there /before we buy/ (although 'all' is relative, given all three books, as far as we know, won't be out until July 2008).

Anyway, as for what games I intend to play... I'll be plugging away at 3.5 up to and beyond the release of 4.0. Other games I'd recommend: BESM, Rifts, and maybe some shadowrun (I haven't even seen 4e for that one).

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