Has Anyone Considered...


4th Edition


Has anyone considered that with the coming of 4th Edition we will mark the end of a D&D era. An awesome era, where we as creators could legally contribute (thanks to the SRD) to the game we all know and love.

Whether 4th Edition improves upon what 3E built remains to be seen, but we will ALWAYS have 3E. It may even be a gift, as the game moves on (4E) the 3rd Edition SRD will cease to evolve, becoming a 'dead language' of sorts. With it, we can customize and create to our hearts content. Adding and subtracting rules, refining races, classes. Whatever.

Even if 4th Edition stinks to hell. Even if they have a limited SRD, or attempt to regulate what can and cannot be published (something I hope they have the good sense not to attempt), we will always have a refuge in the 3E SRD. It's something that I take heart in, even though I am really hoping that this new edition delivers the goods in a way that makes us all proud to be part of it.

Questions? Comments? Threats?


*cues Queen's 'We Are the Champions'*
heh
but seriously, yeah I can see what you are saying.

Liberty's Edge

I can hear...."4e. rules, 3e. feel" allready.


Yah, i've considered all that...

As ever,
ACE


The D&D boom for 3.x was really cool.

It allowed companies like Necromancer, Paizo and Goodman Games to show off some serious talent.

It also allowed some companies to take chances on super deluxe products that WotC is too corporate to do, such as the World's Largest Dungeon, Ptolus, the Accordlands Books, City of Brass, the Wilderlands Box Set, Rappan Athuk Reloaded, the DCC World, Shackled City, etc.

Good times.


In principle, it's very cool and indeed a great gift to those of us who are none too pleased with almost anything that's been said about 4E

BUT

the fact remains that, barring some snag in the 4E OGL/D20 STL (or whatever it winds up being called), you'll see exactly 0 companies continuing to support 3/3.5E in any significant way, let alone developing it further toward v.3.75 or whatever. There's probably no money in it or at least not enough to make it worth doing.

I'd love to see a respected and respectable third party publisher take up the banner of v.3.5 and make it their own, but it won't happen. While there will certainly be people like me who won't upgrade to the new rules, there won't be enough of us to make it worthwhile. I wish it were otherwise, believe me.

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Pathfinder Accessories, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Charter Superscriber

Check out the posts over in the Necromancer Games area...

Orcus wrote:

Rest assured, Tome of Horrors for 4E is coming. Erik and I were talking about it yesterday. Look for it real early in 4E.

And oh yeah, all the stuff WotC screws up, look for us to fix. What? Succubii and Erinyes are now the same monster? Ok, WotC, whatever...

Dont worry, we got your back and will do it right.

Clark

If anyone can help us out, it'll be these guys!


Drawmij's_Heir wrote:
Has anyone considered that with the coming of 4th Edition we will mark the end of a D&D era. An awesome era, where we as creators could legally contribute (thanks to the SRD) to the game we all know and love.

Help out a frumpy old chap, would you? What's the SRD got to do with creativity?


theacemu wrote:

Yah, i've considered all that...

As ever,
ACE

This made me laugh. Because today I feel evil.


Tequila Sunrise wrote:
Help out a frumpy old chap, would you? What's the SRD got to do with creativity?

I suppose what I'm getting at, is that if 4th Edition lets us down, we as a community will always have 3rd edition. With the SRD, we can take that system and customize it however we want. That's the creative part - we can always create, publish and circulate material for the 3E game, regardless of how 4E turns out.

In a way, I think 3E will always have a strong culture/subculture because it has been handed over to us completely (well if you take out the Illithids and Beholders anyway; so like 90% complete). At this point the only thing that could kill 3E is if the new edition is totally awesome, AND has as free and open game license as we do now!

Grand Lodge

Ummmm.... I am wondering what is the point of this post....

First of all this era is a new era. Remember back in the good old days of TSR suing companies for making supporting material?

Second, 4E is supposed to have a more liberal OGL than 3rd... meaning everyone will be able to support it even better than ever...

so why bemoan no one can support 4E when that is blatantly not true?

Dark Archive

Krome wrote:
so why bemoan no one can support 4E when that is blatantly not true?

Because not being inflaming and reactionary is just not that much fun.


Krome wrote:
I am wondering what is the point of this post....

The point of this post is that even IF 4E doesn't allow it, we as the D&D community will always have the 3E OGL to revert too.

Krome wrote:
4E is supposed to have a more liberal OGL than 3rd...

Maybe it will and maybe it won't, I have yet to hear too much on the subject of the 4E OGL, save that there may be a licensing fee associated with companies who want to publish.

If it does in fact turn out to be more open and free than the current version of the SRD, then that would be awesome! The party continues.

I simply haven't been given any concrete info on the subject. If you have some solid evidence to back you your statement of 4E having a more liberal OGL, then I'm sure we would all love for you to post it here.

Dark Archive

Drawmij's_Heir wrote:
If you have some solid evidence to back you your statement of 4E having a more liberal OGL, then I'm sure we would all love for you to post it here.

How come he needs solid evidence and you got to post pure speculation. I cry foul. =P

In all seriousness though, the only thing I remember is in the Paizo blog Erik Mona saying that the 4e OGL might possibly be more permissive than 3e or 3.5e.


Drawmij's_Heir wrote:
I suppose what I'm getting at, is that if 4th Edition lets us down, we as a community will always have 3rd edition.

…or in my case, Hero.

Liberty's Edge

CourtFool wrote:
Drawmij's_Heir wrote:
I suppose what I'm getting at, is that if 4th Edition lets us down, we as a community will always have 3rd edition.

…or in my case, Hero.

What night's that on? I heard Kensei is an Englishman.


Kensei was voted off by Paula Abdul. Pirate Hero is every other Saturday ~ 6ish. I do not have your first draft of your character though.

Liberty's Edge

Okay. He's a bastard son of the Earl of Sandwich.

Liberty's Edge

Hero Sandwich? I know...


Right…so…Knowledge Skill (Deli)…what else?

Liberty's Edge

Can he have a laser on his head? If not, metal teeth like Jaws from James Bond? And a hat like Odd Job that has a razor brim?
And a coati mundi. They rock.


Breaking genre is the gay of the ninja.

If you want to play James Bond Hero, just say so. I have been itchin' to run Espionage Hero.


Drawmij's_Heir wrote:
With the SRD, we can take that system and customize it however we want.

So the SRD has some kind of legal notation that allows other publishers to publish 3.x material?

Grand Lodge

Drawmij's_Heir wrote:
Krome wrote:
I am wondering what is the point of this post....

The point of this post is that even IF 4E doesn't allow it, we as the D&D community will always have the 3E OGL to revert too.

Krome wrote:
4E is supposed to have a more liberal OGL than 3rd...

Maybe it will and maybe it won't, I have yet to hear too much on the subject of the 4E OGL, save that there may be a licensing fee associated with companies who want to publish.

If it does in fact turn out to be more open and free than the current version of the SRD, then that would be awesome! The party continues.

I simply haven't been given any concrete info on the subject. If you have some solid evidence to back you your statement of 4E having a more liberal OGL, then I'm sure we would all love for you to post it here.

I am simply repeating what Eric Mona and James Jacobs and others in places have said about it. Do *I* have any concrete proof. No. But I take the word of industry insiders like them over speculation any day.

I just fail to see the purpose and why it is worth griping over something that just isn't worth griping about. Do you or anyone else have proof that 4E is going to let us down? Does anyone have proof that the OGL is going to be more restrictive or that WizCo is going to regulate the industry?

No...

So all this is just to stir up anxiety and fears and a lot of what ifs... which of course serves no purpose other than make people anxious.

So, yes you have 3E to fall back on. Hackmaster used a variation on 2E for their system and are doing quite nice. I have no doubt that some company or two will use 3E for their system even when others are going 4E.

This just seems like some one in a theater thinking that it is possible a fire could start so he yells "Fire."

You can go ahead and fret and wring your hands in anxiety and get everyone else in hysterics.

I am just going to wait and see and decide when I have some real facts to judge on instead of making stuff up.

Grand Lodge

Tequila Sunrise wrote:
Drawmij's_Heir wrote:
With the SRD, we can take that system and customize it however we want.
So the SRD has some kind of legal notation that allows other publishers to publish 3.x material?

It's called the OGL, Open Gaming License.

You will see it in every d20 and OGL document published. It is a legal document that allows other publishers to use the SRD for their own products.

It is open ended so that even 40 years from now we can still be making 3E supporting materials as long as the publisher follows the OGL.

Grand Lodge

DangerDwarf wrote:
Drawmij's_Heir wrote:
If you have some solid evidence to back you your statement of 4E having a more liberal OGL, then I'm sure we would all love for you to post it here.

How come he needs solid evidence and you got to post pure speculation. I cry foul. =P

In all seriousness though, the only thing I remember is in the Paizo blog Erik Mona saying that the 4e OGL might possibly be more permissive than 3e or 3.5e.

Yeah ditto!

Foul!

And like I said I trust Erik Mona more than idle speculation from someone who is not an insider. And even if he is wrong, I will just wait and see if there really is anything to complain about before I complain.

Course some people just aren't happy unless they are complaining... I know a few of those :)

Scarab Sages

Heathansson wrote:
And a coati mundi. They rock.

Wasn't Coatimundi Man a spinoff of Puma Man? or Pe-youma Man? or Pumaman?

As far as the OP goes, I'm already on board for not being a big fan of 4e, but that doesn't mean I won't do what I've done for years... bring out my literary prybar, mallet, wratchet set, and shoehorn and use any source from any setting to cobble together fun games for my players. I consider supporting a company that looks out for my intrests as a player the first job of my hobby money.


Krome wrote:
So all this is just to stir up anxiety and fears and a lot of what ifs... which of course serves no purpose other than make people anxious.

Do you have proof that 4e is not going to let the community down or that the OGL will be less restrictive?

People are already anxious and fearful. They are coming here to express those anxieties and fears. Are you suggesting we should not be allowed to express ourselves?

Liberty's Edge

CourtFool wrote:
Krome wrote:
So all this is just to stir up anxiety and fears and a lot of what ifs... which of course serves no purpose other than make people anxious.

Do you have proof that 4e is not going to let the community down or that the OGL will be less restrictive?

People are already anxious and fearful. They are coming here to express those anxieties and fears. Are you suggesting we should not be allowed to express ourselves?

Only if you agree with ME. Otherwise you're a muckraker.


The article writers at this website, www.nerdlives.com agree with the above sentiments. This article takes a particularly harsh stab at 4th edition:
http://www.nerdlives.com/articles/9-23-07/homebrewed1.html

Its a good read though. Theres another article on the same site that talks about 4th edition from a more 'economical' perspective.

http://www.nerdlives.com/articles/9-23-07/culturecorner1.html

Check them out.

Grand Lodge

CourtFool wrote:
Krome wrote:
So all this is just to stir up anxiety and fears and a lot of what ifs... which of course serves no purpose other than make people anxious.

Do you have proof that 4e is not going to let the community down or that the OGL will be less restrictive?

People are already anxious and fearful. They are coming here to express those anxieties and fears. Are you suggesting we should not be allowed to express ourselves?

ummmm no... I am saying why do you have these anxieties and fears in the first place?

Are you just afraid of change in the first place and therefore anything that changes makes you afraid and anxious? In that case I would suggest therapy. I mean seriously, it's a game...

And how do I put this... no I do not need proof that it will not let down the community etc... I am not the one running around crying wolf and wringing my hands and hiding my head in the sand because I am terrified that change is coming. I mean after all 3.5 was the 4th variation of D&D- Basic D&D, Advanced D&D, 2nd Edition D&D, 3rd Edition D&D, 3.5 D&D... so why be so upset that yet another edition is coming out?

If someone is going to come into a public forum and claim all sorts of negative events are about to happen they had better be able to back that up. The OP pulls a lot of crap out his backside with no proof of whatsoever. I for one do not like people stirring up hysterics just for the sake of stirring up hysterics.

Prove your statements that 4E is going to ruin everything or else don't say it and don't worry about it.

Yep that's what it all comes down to...

Don't worry about it

It all boils down to this... my momma taught me if you don't have something good to say, don't say anything at all.

Grand Lodge

benxpx wrote:

The article writers at this website, www.nerdlives.com agree with the above sentiments. This article takes a particularly harsh stab at 4th edition:

http://www.nerdlives.com/articles/9-23-07/homebrewed1.html

Its a good read though. Theres another article on the same site that talks about 4th edition from a more 'economical' perspective.

http://www.nerdlives.com/articles/9-23-07/culturecorner1.html

Check them out.

Well ok, I read the "articles" if one can call them articles.

Ok first impression, he sure must be ignorant... no idea 4E was coming... I KNEW in my heart and gut 4E would be announced at GenCOn this year. That was the primary reason I went to my first GenCOn... He obviously didn't read much about the industry before GenCon this year.

Second impression was that his criticisms are again based on ignorance. He claims that making racial class variants will not produce anything meaningful. An elven rogue is just like any other elven rogue. Well first I say GREAT, so now there is SOME variety in the classes. And second he didn't even mention the Talent Trees they want to include.

Third impression, he has no idea what class roles are. Ummm the wizard is not a front line fighter... He has no business being up front. His role is to fling spells from the back and do major DPR (Damage Per Round). A cleric's role is to buff and heal others and occasionally get in the fight. Is that bad? Nope. In fact I love playing clerics. They have more personality built into them than any other class.

Ok, fourth impression... again he is just ignorant... His argument that a new edition and the supplements are driven by the model of new cards from Magic: the Gathering... Let's go back in time here to TSR... ready for this... D&D Basic Rules, Companion Rules, Expert Rules, Immortal Rules, Rules Cyclodepia, Classic D&D Rulebook, Mystara, Greyhawk, Blackmoor, AD&D Player's Handbook, AD&D DMG, AD&D Monster Manual, AD&D Fiend Folio, AD&D Dungeoneer's Survival Guide, Legends and Lore, Monster Manual 2, Unearthed Arcana, Wilderness Survival Guide, Dragonlance, Forgotten Realms, Oriental Adventures, Ravenloft. Just to name a few...

If you look at Paizo's store for D&D you find that under TSR they have 751 products available in three different versions of D&D. Under WOTC we have two current versions available (3.0 and 3.5) with 122 products (yes I know not all of 3.0 is there but still no where near 751).

So, once again we have someone who is ignorant (unless he has a copy of 4E in his hands) fueling the flames of hysteria.

Now the only thing he said that I agree with... money. I have invested more money in 3.5 than I care to add up (and have NO intention of ever telling my wife). Switching to 4E economically is not a good idea for me. Not yet. I waited until 2003 to buy the 3E stuff since I had so much 2E stuff. And 2E worked just fine. Is there a need for a new edition?

Well that depends. When I played Basic D&D and switched to AD&D we had pencils, paper, dice and a few books. We imagined everything. It was simple, fun and fast. Rules were pulled out only by the rules lawyer and even then once every few sessions. Let's fast forward to 3.5, shall we. Thicker books with more complex rules (grapple, attacks of opportunity, two-handed weapons, dual wield weapons, charging, cover). To play we NEED books, dice, paper and pencil, miniatures, charts to track initiative, reference materials and drawn maps. We spend more time looking up rules during combat than fighting.

There used to be a game called Rollmaster which everyone called RULEmaster. Along comes 3.0 and 3.5 and really masters the Rules.

So, in my opinion, yes we need a new edition. Slim down the complexity. It's a game, not combat simulation. Make the game about the story and having fun again. Will 4E deliver that? I have no idea. I hope so. But without a copy in front of me all I can say is wait and see. And ignorant dribble like those "articles" does no one any good.


Krome wrote:

It all boils down to this... my momma taught me if you don't have something good to say, don't say anything at all.

Which is exactly why I think the designers blogs are pointless, btw . . . but that's a whole other issue (i.e. if you CAN'T tell us facts, don't just say "it'll be great and cool, just trust us).


Krome wrote:
So, yes you have 3E to fall back on.

...and that's all I'm saying! Not that 4E IS going to blow, just that IF IT DOES we already have been given a kick ass version to work with!

Krome wrote:
I for one do not like people stirring up hysterics just for the sake of stirring up hysterics.

The hilarious thing about this thread is that the only person who is hysterical about anything is you, and the ironic thing about that is that you have mistaken me for a denouncer of 4E!

Krome wrote:
Prove your statements that 4E is going to ruin everything or else don't say it and don't worry about it.

No one has ever made that statement. I think the concern is LESS over whether 4E will be an awesome system (which I'm feeling pretty confident that it will), and MORE over whether it will have an open and free OGL (which I have heard whispers that it won't; or that it will at least involve some sort of licensing fee).


It might be a good idea to wind this thread up now. The original poster only meant to say that regardless of how 4th ed. turns out, we will still have 3.0/3.5 to play with, if necessary. Which makes good sense. After all, we could all still be playing 1st edition if we wanted to (and I'm prepared to bet that a good few people on here still do). Unfortunately, the message got a little confused along the way.
Which is not to say that Krome et al. didn't make some good, pertinent points, because they did; we cannot yet be sure of exactly how 4th ed. will pan out or what it will mean to the numerous independent publishers who have so far made good use of the OGL. Speculation without further information is somewhat pointless, but I'd go along with the opinion that Erik Mona has probably got a better insight than the rest of us.
There haven't really been any truly contradictory viewpoints expressed on here yet, but a fight has ensued nonetheless. We don't really need to fall out at this point and start slinging mud (and pointed personal observations) at each other. As of now, we don't know enough to be either wildly excited or clinically depressed, so it really isn't worth falling out amongst ourselves on sheer speculation, optimistic or pessimistic as it may be.


Krome wrote:
CourtFool wrote:
Krome wrote:
So all this is just to stir up anxiety and fears and a lot of what ifs... which of course serves no purpose other than make people anxious.

Do you have proof that 4e is not going to let the community down or that the OGL will be less restrictive?

People are already anxious and fearful. They are coming here to express those anxieties and fears. Are you suggesting we should not be allowed to express ourselves?

ummmm no... I am saying why do you have these anxieties and fears in the first place?

Are you just afraid of change in the first place and therefore anything that changes makes you afraid and anxious? In that case I would suggest therapy. I mean seriously, it's a game...

And how do I put this... no I do not need proof that it will not let down the community etc... I am not the one running around crying wolf and wringing my hands and hiding my head in the sand because I am terrified that change is coming. I mean after all 3.5 was the 4th variation of D&D- Basic D&D, Advanced D&D, 2nd Edition D&D, 3rd Edition D&D, 3.5 D&D... so why be so upset that yet another edition is coming out?

If someone is going to come into a public forum and claim all sorts of negative events are about to happen they had better be able to back that up. The OP pulls a lot of crap out his backside with no proof of whatsoever. I for one do not like people stirring up hysterics just for the sake of stirring up hysterics.

Prove your statements that 4E is going to ruin everything or else don't say it and don't worry about it.

Yep that's what it all comes down to...

Don't worry about it

It all boils down to this... my momma taught me if you don't have something good to say, don't say anything at all.

And yet u have put up more posts on this topic than anyone. Funny how those who hate complainers complain the most of all... LOL


Krome wrote:
Don't worry about it

I shall say what I please within the constraints of polite conversation. Your thinly veiled attacks on my emotional stability will not stop me. Remember the adage about arguing with a fool. If you let yourself get pulled down into my game, than you are no better than I. And I dare say the fall would be from a far greater height from your horse.

Liberty's Edge

It was the whole "crying wolf" part that really hit me in the breadbasket.

Liberty's Edge

But seriously, it's the whole "you have no proof so....bla bla bla" thing that gets me. If lack of proof negates your say, if sheer speculation negates your say, than 90% of the 4e. threads on this board and others need to just dry up and blow away because, again, the game isn't out yet. Speculation is moot, whether you're looking forward to 4e., or dreading it. Every 4e. thread should therefore just be a regurgitation of something off of Chris Perkins' or another's blog, followed by "oooh's" and "aaaah's."
And anyone saying "I want THIS in 4e...." needs to shut up too, because they need to shut up and wait for it to come out. Speculation is moot. Desire is moot. Wait for 4e. It'll be FUUUUUUUUUUUUUUN!


Essentially, these arguments are along the lines of "4e is not out, so shut up".

Now I can certainly understand if someone gets tired of hearing about something. However, one of the beauties of a free society is that you can simply ignore many of the things you do not like or do not care about. I get tired of hearing about Paris Hilton and Lindsey Lohan, so I change the channel or do not read threads about them.

Telling someone they are not entitled to their opinion is simply un-American* and hypocritical.

*Yes, I am aware how ironic that statement is. Have you not been reading my posts?


Personally I find what I'm hearing troubling.
I wouldn't mind tieflings if they explained WHY they're adding them instead what I can discern its merely considered "cool" instead of relevant.
Tieflings are not strictly CORE they're the opposing racial template of Assimar but they're not being considered because they aren't as COOL or whatver word they want to cover this simple fact.
I actually like the point of light generic campaign idea, but isn't that what we've been doing in every campaign whether homebrew or not?
Warlocks as a core class I consider idiotic and I haven't anything to suggest otherwise, I have already stated I consider this as a prestige class and not a true character class, the idea they're adding this as one of the core phb character classes is to be blunt one of the main things thats making me seriously reconsider buying 4e.
The only saving grace I can think of is that if they don't include a monster extra section so I can run games with the phb and perhaps the introductory scenario (thats priced rather high for an introductory scenario) at least I could have warlocks as being solely evil cultists and tieflings being the sole province of evil npcs and then MUCH later have some as PCs once they understand what the PCs are capable of running.

Anyone care to explain preferably using a reason OTHER than wanting to run evil characters why it should be core and that also means you can't use the its COOl reason as that has been utterly proven false.
This is 4e d&d you have the chance to create something truly great and all you can come up with is Munchkin 4e and I do mean that.

Oh and is the Faerun 4e set 10 years ahead or a century ahead?
I actually have no problem with it being set a century ahead, but the Grand History of the Realms isn't going to a book I'll bother with although its about the only premise that strikes me as a good sign.


Krome wrote:
...Second, 4E is supposed to have a more liberal OGL than 3rd...

Says who? The company that has been pulling every license in sight for the past year?

I remain skeptical :/


hopeless wrote:
Anyone care to explain preferably using a reason OTHER than wanting to run evil characters why it should be core and that also means you can't use the its COOl reason as that has been utterly proven false.

Because neophytes all want to be Lestat/Drizzt/ninja. Oh, wait…is that the same 'cool' argument?


So, I wrote <http://www.nerdlives.com/articles/9-23-07/homebrewed1.html>, the aforementioned article of ignorance. However, I did not write <http://www.nerdlives.com/articles/9-23-07/culturecorner1.html> the article of whose ignorance I was also accused of. This is a really interesting thread that is rising a lot of legitimate points on both sides of the arguments, though it has gotten a little heated, and I'm not entirely sure why.

Anyway, first and foremost, I would like to defend my ignorance by saying that the primary point of the online counterculture and message boards such as this, is to express your opinions and engage in dialogues with others who have ideas on your opinion. My article was simply a discussion of the issues I have with 4th edition, based on what I've personally read about it. I never claimed it to be anything other than that and I even openly admitted I will check out the system before I make any final conclussions. The entire width of human thought has revolved around developing and expressing opinions about the purpose and future of things based on the past and what we currently know. So if that makes me ignorant, then I'll join that team anyday.

Second, I would like to say that I agree with Drawmij's_Heir's original context for this post (which seems to be forgotten entirely). It really has very little to do with 4th edition, but rises a very important issue apart from edition: community. The thing that has really drawn me to games like D&D, M:TG, et c is the community in which they thrive. I have never met a more welcoming group of people than those I meet at tournaments, gaming stores, and around my gaming table. Regardless of which edition you perfer (I know some old heads who have played 3.0/3.5, but still perfer second edition, or even first edition), it is important we remain strong as a community and continue to make D&D a living, growing organism in whichever edition we choose to play. I still see good second edition adventures and campaign worlds get posted online from time to time and that is great. Take whichever edition you feel most comfortable in (or system for that matter), and run with it.

For my part in "fanning the flames" of hysteria, I apologize, that was not the intention of my article. I was just making my voice heard, which is important. However, I don't want to see people fighting over what I wrote, just discussing it in civilized ways.

Enjoy and keep gaming,

Blaine.


Man back in the old days, you know the early 80s, there were all kinds of third party publishers. I think they stopped that prior to second edition. I thought they learned thier mistake then. I guess if they do not open the liscence for 4th edition, Paizo will have to stay with 3rd edition stuff. ~SAD FACE FROWN~


I was hoping and praying that the Pathfinder AP would stay 3.5, but most likely it will not. I don't want to sink another grand in to new books which will make the game I love Final Fantasy on paper. I'll give it a chance, but not financially. I will borrow a book of a friend and it will really have to show me something. Because my first mind is telling me that it will not be better than 3.5 and I hope that someone will keep cranking out viable alternatives to 4e.

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