Chaotic evil means never having to say you're sorry!
if i could have a signature, I'd put that in it.
Talkin 'bout the Greeks, wouldn't it be more accurate to say that their conception of the afterlife varied over time, like most other cultures? The way the afterlife is portrayed in Homer (the bloodthirsty shades) is very different from the pre-Homeric really old stories, where heroes and gods were sort of interchangeable and guys like Orion got to be immortal by being made into stars.
And the later philosophers and mystery cults were different again. So everybody's right, it just depends which Greeks you're talking about...
Speaking of alignment languages (well referencing what someone said about 20 posts back) 3.5 D&D has Dark Speech, Words of Creation, and Truespeak. Each is a language that possesses power over the world, and has the power to create (Words of Creation), destroy (Dark Speech) or change the world in various ways (Truespeak). The alignment languages are entirely viable if you think of them in the same vein.
I am still nonplussed by the new cosmology. I don't use the present cosmology in my games anyhow. I make it up!
Speaking of alignment languages (well referencing what someone said about 20 posts back) 3.5 D&D has Dark Speech, Words of Creation, and Truespeak. Each is a language that possesses power over the world, and has the power to create (Words of Creation), destroy (Dark Speech) or change the world in various ways (Truespeak). The alignment languages are entirely viable if you think of them in the same vein.
I think 1E alignment languages (if I remember my AD&D correctly) were like a sort of Thieve's Cant or slang made up of words and body language, which you could use to let someone know that you were the same alignment as them. I think they were sort of instinctive, so if you changed alignment you forgot how to speak your old alignment language. It's a pretty bizarre idea, I don't know what possessed them to do it. Knowing how it was back then, it was probably an idea from a little known pulp fantasy novel that Gygax thought was cool.
I am still nonplussed by the new cosmology. I don't use the present cosmology in my games anyhow. I make it up!
Me too.
In Rich Baker's latest blog, he mentions, abstractly, mind you how the 4e cosmology is adaptable for the Great Wheel, etc.
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I've been playing D&D off and on for over 20 years and, personally, I've never been much of a fan of the Great Wheel cosmology. I like the idea of divine realms floating in an Astral Sea MUCH better. I picture one of those old, mechanical solar system models with all the little planets whirling around the Earth. So in that sense I like the new cosmology.
I'm not crazy about the one elemental plane though. Not because I want to keep the four (or eight?) from the Great Wheel, but because I don't really like the elemental planes at all. A dimension of pure fire? Like with fire for land, and fire for seas, and fire for atmosphere? Doesn't sound like much room for adventurers to me. I always though elementals, etc. should come from the extreme places in the material world - high in the sky, deep below the earth, at the bottom of the sea, the heart of a volcano, etc. Interestingly, the new cosmology has just such a place of extreme nature ... the Feywild. Think about it. Druids already have a connection with nature and elementals. Maybe elementals are living embodiments of the earth and water and fire just like fey are embodiments of life force of nature. So I vote to get rid of the Elemental Chaos and fold it into the Feywild. Besides, then the Abyss could go back to being a whirlpool in the Astral Sea where it belongs.
I'm also warming to the idea of the Shadowfell as the place where the souls of the faithless linger. Wasn't there a mechanic in Ghostwalk (a highly underrated book IMHO) to determine if a soul had enough willpower to stay in the world and become a ghost? Why not something similar - fluffwise if not crunchwise - where only the souls of the truly faithful actually get to join their god in his/her paradise. The rest linger in the Shadowfell until they get captured by devils or other bottom-feeders or just fade into oblivion and become raw material for the new souls.
BTW, while I say I never was much of a fan of the Great Wheel, I think the way Wizards has gone about this, disrespecting years of tradition and all the folks who do like the Wheel, is terrible. Forgotten Realms has its giant tree cosmology, Eberron has its waxing and waning planes or whatever, and Greyhawk has the Great Wheel. They can move on and create a generic cosmology if they want for their new, generic world, but there's no need to tear up everything that has come before and spit in people's faces while doing it.
In Rich Baker's latest blog, he mentions, abstractly, mind you how the 4e cosmology is adaptable for the Great Wheel, etc.
Thanks for the linkage honorable rogue.
To me, the single most interesting part was this:
Well, I see that the D&D Insider fellas went and posted my cosmology article. We've all been knocking out little pieces like that for months as we find an hour or two to spare, and frankly I'd just about forgotten I wrote it.
For a while now, people have been glooming and dooming about how it seems like there's still so many fundamentals that aren't nailed down and yet we're so close to WotC needing to hit the presses. Knowing now that many of these articles have been written an indeterminate period prior rather than reflecting what is currently going thru the revision/polishing stage is actually comforting to me.
Not because I want to keep the four (or eight?) from the Great Wheel
I remember 16 (4 pure, 4 para, 4 positive, 4 negative). If the para planes had positive and negative counterparts, that could mean 8 more.
This seems like a process piece to me, and doesn't get me all that excited (or upset). Seems like it was just thrown out there and i'm supposed to care. Like the "Points of Light" article. I'd rather they get into the mechanics of the thing than the backstory, which varies wildly from campaign to campaign anyhow. Lets talk about 30 level classes or how those (IMO, unsightly) Wizard's tools are supposed to work, not the trendy new "Shadowfell" and Elemental Unity.
ONE LITTLE CLUE: From the accompanying picture and the mention of the fortress overlooking Acheron I'm guessing the Reth Dekatha (or whatever they're called) from Book of Nine Swords have escaped Cap System status and gone core. Who knows what martial manuevers they've brought with them...
Uh, why was my post regarding something Rich Baker said in his blog deleted?
Rich's latest entry had a passing remark that many of the articles just now appearing on WotC's website were written so many months ago that he'd forgotten writing them.
My sentiment was that this was a good revelation because it should temper the gloom & doom knee-jerk reactions people have to some of these announcements. Namely the feeling that 4E is doomed if it's this close to printing and so many fundamentals are up in the air. Yet obviously if these articles have been written many months ago, then progress is quite a bit further along than if such news was freshly scribed.
BTW, thanks for the linkage honorable Rogue.
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Uh, why was my post regarding something Rich Baker said in his blog deleted?
Rich's latest entry had a passing remark that many of the articles just now appearing on WotC's website were written so many months ago that he'd forgotten writing them.
My sentiment was that this was a good revelation because it should temper the gloom & doom knee-jerk reactions people have to some of these announcements. Namely the feeling that 4E is doomed if it's this close to printing and so many fundamentals are up in the air. Yet obviously if these articles have been written many months ago, then progress is quite a bit further along than if such news was freshly scribed.
BTW, thanks for the linkage honorable Rogue.
It wasn't deleted, I can read the original post just fine.
There is a bug in the system that sometimes hides posts from view and no one is completely sure why. So every so often a post might disappear for you but appear just fine for others.
Hmm, yeah my post is back now alright. Seems the purpose of this bug is to ellicit feelings of paranoia. Still though, just because You might not be paranoid doesn't mean T.H.E.Y.* aren't out to get You.
* The Horde of Eccumenical Yoddelers
Laithoron, sometimes the boards eat posts . . .but they always spit them back out. On the bright side, that means I got thanked twice and called honorable . . .woo hoo. (You're welcome.)
* The Horde of Eccumenical YoddelersEcumenical? Heck, I always thought it was Ecclesiastical Yodelers. That totally changes my game plan.
dang i thought it was ex-centrifugal
Not because I want to keep the four (or eight?) from the Great WheelI remember 16 (4 pure, 4 para, 4 positive, 4 negative). If the para planes had positive and negative counterparts, that could mean 8 more.
I think there were 12. 4 pure, 4 para- and 4 quasi-. Only 1 positive energy, and 1 negative energy planes. IIRC.
Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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I think there were 12. 4 pure, 4 para- and 4 quasi-. Only 1 positive energy, and 1 negative energy planes. IIRC.
Heaven help me for knowing this:
Fire - Magma - Earth
Earth - Ooze - Water
Water - Ice - Air
Air - Smoke - Fire
Fire - Radiance - Positive
Earth - Minerals - Positive
Water - Steam - Positive
Air - Lightning - Positive
Fire - Ash - Negative
Earth - Dust - Negative
Water - Salt - Negative
Air - Vacuum - Negative
So:
4 Pure
4 Para
8 Quasi
2 Energy
______
18 Inner Planes
I think there were 12. 4 pure, 4 para- and 4 quasi-. Only 1 positive energy, and 1 negative energy planes. IIRC.Heaven help me for knowing this:
...
So:
4 Pure
4 Para
8 Quasi
2 Energy
______18 Inner Planes
Nicely done. And you're not even a fan of the GW :) I can't remember when exactly they axed the quasi-planes. Was that between 3.0 and 3.5? I'm too lazy to look it up...
quasi's are fun
Nope. I'm a planescape fan. Ironic, isn't it?
Nicely done. And you're not even a fan of the GW :) I can't remember when exactly they axed the quasi-planes. Was that between 3.0 and 3.5? I'm too lazy to look it up...
Very ironic! Have you checked out the "Beyond Countless Doorways" book? Written by Monte Cook, Wolfgang Baur, Colin McComb & Ray Vallese. All old Planescape veteran writers (though I wasn't familiar w/ Ray Vallese). I've just thumbed through my copy, but I like what I see. If you don't own it, it presents you w/ lots of options for different cosmologies, and you can mix/match all you want. You're not bound to a "fixed" cosmology like the Great Wheel.
I mention it only b/c you've said you're not that interested in setting fluff and so I presume you prefer to make up your own. The book is full of ideas and interesting planes. I'd recommend it unless you already have your own cosmology "fixed" at this point...
never mind
was gonna make a cosmetology joke and decided against it
ooh idf they are changing alignment maybe we could add in the "wheel of morality" from Animaniacs!!
"Wheel of morality turn turn turn, show us the lessont hat we should learn."
Today's lesson: chaotic evil is a good thing.
Tune in tomorrow kids!
*And here I thought no one remembered Animaniacs*
"They have pay for play contracts. They're totally insaney, Citizen Kaney, Animaniacs."