Can you confirm this?


4th Edition


Is it true tieflings is a confirmed race for 4e?

And that the Warlock a confirmed class?

Its just that tieflings have a level adjustment or used to and I find it rather absurd that it qualifies as a core character race when it should really only remain an optional extra in a splat book.

And as for the warlock although I despise the favoured soul more this class should have never been anything other than a prestige class at least thats my point of view.

Would you mind explaining how 4e is still a roleplaying game instead of a powergaming exercise in futility?

And if you don't mind explaining the reasoning behind the choice of these two as at the moment I'm seriously considering packing in d&d altogether if this is what I have to expect.

PS: About the only reason I didn't just quit involves a certain Hollow's Last Hope, a Crown of a Kobold and of course Pathfinder, now that is what I call a point of light in the darkness!


hopeless wrote:

Is it true tieflings is a confirmed race for 4e?

And that the Warlock a confirmed class?

Its just that tieflings have a level adjustment or used to and I find it rather absurd that it qualifies as a core character race when it should really only remain an optional extra in a splat book.

And as for the warlock although I despise the favoured soul more this class should have never been anything other than a prestige class at least thats my point of view.

Would you mind explaining how 4e is still a roleplaying game instead of a powergaming exercise in futility?

And if you don't mind explaining the reasoning behind the choice of these two as at the moment I'm seriously considering packing in d&d altogether if this is what I have to expect.

PS: About the only reason I didn't just quit involves a certain Hollow's Last Hope, a Crown of a Kobold and of course Pathfinder, now that is what I call a point of light in the darkness!

Enworld says that is confirmed-- however given the ongoing information it appears that the game style and rules will be very different for 4e, none of the other classes will be much like the 3.5 versions I dont think you can assume that warlocks or tieflings will be like 3.5 warlocks or tieflings. It will all change.


Apparently they're getting rid of LA altogether and instead having something which seems like racial levels, except you get them automatically. That is, you pick your race and over the course of your adventuring career as you level up in whatever class you picked, you also get more racial features. It's discussed in the Races Design & Development article. I think this quote illustrates it well: "If we spread the tasty magical abilities of drow out through their levels, they could start at 1st level on a par with other character races."

So I agree with Werecorpse: wait and see. As for the warlock, all the classes are changing in some way (yet to see how substantial these changes are, but some seem big), so if you hate the 3.5 warlock, you might not necessarily hate the 4e warlock.

Hope that helps.

EDIT: Oh, also, for a bit more "confirmation" on the tiefling, the cover of the Player's Handbook features one, which would indicate its in that book.


Grindor wrote:

...you pick your race and over the course of your adventuring career as you level up in whatever class you picked, you also get more racial features.

The races gaining new abilities as they level smacks of Dawnforge quite a bit, as does the Tiefling being a base class.


hopeless wrote:
Its just that tieflings have a level adjustment or used to and I find it rather absurd that it qualifies as a core character race when it should really only remain an optional extra in a splat book.

Nonsense. Tieflings have never, and I mean never, been a splatbook race. They're Monster Manual I races, and they're the poster child for ECL 1 PC races. (And honestly, they don't deserve that ECL 1... nor do they deserve the -2 charisma. I challenge you to find me a portrayal of a female tiefling who is anything less than smoking hot.)

hopeless wrote:
And as for the warlock although I despise the favoured soul more this class should have never been anything other than a prestige class at least thats my point of view.

Woah woah woah woah woah.

Woah.

I hate to derail this from 4e, but I've never once heard somebody express an overall negative opinion of Favored Soul, much less heard of anybody "despising" it. (I also have yet to hear a reasonable arguement for why Warlock is a terrible class.) Would you please enlighten me? I would really love to understand why you react so strongly against Favored Soul.

hopeless wrote:
Would you mind explaining how 4e is still a roleplaying game instead of a powergaming exercise in futility?

Oh, that's good.

Ok, let me articulate something here. This is a point a lot of people seem to miss.

Powergaming is an integral part of the Dungeons and Dragons experience.

D&D was built on the dungeons of Gary Gygax. Have you ever seen those things? There's a reason "Gygaxian" is synonimous with "Deadly" and "Unfair". In original D&D, you damn well squeezed every inch of power out of your character that you could, because it was your only chance to survive the dungeon.

And let's not even start on the Forgotten Realms - home of Elminster, the patron saint of munchkins.

Sir, if you (or anybody else) seeks a deep, robust, immersive game of D&D that does not involve kicking in doors, fireballing goblins, stabbing beholders in the eye, and generally killing (evil) sentient beings and taking their loot, you're doing it wrong.

Dark Archive Contributor

Burrito Al Pastor wrote:
I hate to derail this from 4e, but I've never once heard somebody express an overall negative opinion of Favored Soul, much less heard of anybody "despising" it. (I also have yet to hear a reasonable arguement for why Warlock is a terrible class.) Would you please enlighten me? I would really love to understand why you react so strongly against Favored Soul.

I too despise favored soul. I'm not sure I could put my feelings into words, though. Just plain hate it.


I'm not a fan of the favored soul either. Maybe it's the wings. Maybe it's the art. I dunno. I just don't like it.

Dark Archive Bella Sara Charter Superscriber

Burrito Al Pastor wrote:


Nonsense. Tieflings have never, and I mean never, been a splatbook race. They're Monster Manual I races, and they're the poster child for ECL 1 PC races. (And honestly, they don't deserve that ECL 1... nor do they deserve the -2 charisma. I challenge you to find me a portrayal of a female tiefling who is anything less than smoking hot.)

The biggest irony of it is that (IIRC) they received a bonus to Cha in 2e.


Burrito Al Pastor wrote:
Nonsense. Tieflings have never, and I mean never, been a splatbook race. They're Monster Manual I races, and they're the poster child for ECL 1 PC races. (And honestly, they don't deserve that ECL 1... nor do they deserve the -2 charisma. I challenge you to find me a portrayal of a female tiefling who is anything less than smoking hot.)

So why now?

]I hate to derail this from 4e, but I've never once heard somebody express an overall negative opinion of Favored Soul, much less heard of anybody "despising" it. (I also have yet to hear a reasonable arguement for why Warlock is a terrible class.) Would you please enlighten me? I would really love to understand why you react so strongly against Favored Soul.[/QUOTE wrote:

Because its proof of just how far they nerfed the sorceror.
Take a good look, how many bonus feats does the cleric have?
Now how many does the wizard have, now explain to me how turn undead is worth having a new character class with those bonus feats when all that should have been done was a sorceror class with a d6 hd, expanded skills, the choice of being able to cast arcane or divine spells with their limited spell knowledge and there you have what should have been the sorceror class not some pointless addition in a complete book that screams munckin accessory.
And as for warlocks they aren't a character class, they're at most a prestige class after all those abilities are way out of whack for a starting character when compared to the others.

hopeless wrote:
Would you mind explaining how 4e is still a roleplaying game instead of a powergaming exercise in futility?

Oh, that's good.

Ok, let me articulate something here. This is a point a lot of people seem to miss.
Powergaming is an integral part of the Dungeons and Dragons experience.

Wrong

]D&D was [i wrote:
built[/i] on the dungeons of Gary Gygax. Have you ever seen those things? There's a reason "Gygaxian" is synonimous with "Deadly" and "Unfair". In original D&D, you damn well squeezed every inch of power out of your character that you could, because it was your only chance to survive the dungeon.

Which as why we now have a 4th edition on the horizon and yet the best scenarios I've played in or seen outside of Paizo and Goodmans have been 2nd and 1st edition.

Your mistake is forgetting that this is a game for everyone to enjoy and there was a time when obtaining magical items was a situation that merited these adventures and yet now its come to the stage where they're thinking of scaling back access to such items and altering the game to fit some goal that is far from what d&d was thought to be.
Can you tell me of any reason why tieflings and warlocks merit being a part of a core rulebook other than an alternative title for a high level spellcaster or an entry in the MM?

I've played in games where I tried to roleplay and find these new additions annoying in that it makes me think they want more munchkins involved and have little interest in the players and dm's who brought them this far.

]And let's not even [i wrote:

start[/i] on the Forgotten Realms - home of Elminster, the patron saint of munchkins.

Sir, if you (or anybody else) seeks a deep, robust, immersive game of D&D that does not...

I've been lucky the only npc's I've seen used in a Faerun campaign have involved a certain drow ranger and that is only because he was included as part of the adventure the dm ran.

Perhaps I should take a closer look at Iron Heroes as i hear that inspired some of the changes in 4e...

Grand Lodge

hopeless wrote:
Would you mind explaining how 4e is still a roleplaying game instead of a powergaming exercise in futility?

I don't buy into the premise of this question. If "powergaming" is fun for you, go for it. One of the character premises I want to run soon is a True Neutral fighter-type whose background is basically, "This character decided to seek his fortune adventuring. After slaying his first orc, he decided, 'hey, this is kinda cool.' He's been killing evil and taking its stuff ever since."

hopeless wrote:
PS: About the only reason I didn't just quit involves a certain Hollow's Last Hope, a Crown of a Kobold and of course Pathfinder, now that is what I call a point of light in the darkness!

This paragraph is incompatible with any whining about powergaming, I'm sorry. These are fantastic adventures, no doubt, but they are very deadly, and saying that they don't encourage power-built PCs is just foolishness.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Maps, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Charter Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Mike McArtor wrote:
Burrito Al Pastor wrote:
I would really love to understand why you react so strongly against Favored Soul.

I too despise favored soul. I'm not sure I could put my feelings into words, though. Just plain hate it.

Here's my problem with Favored Souls- they're their own deities, and they make anything with divine ranks obsolete.

Favored souls are obviously a divine analog to sorcerers. And that would be fine if arcane magic and divine magic worked the same. But they don't. Arcane magic, in a sense, simply exists. Short of a dead magic area, an anti-magic field, or a similar effect, arcane energy can be tapped into by anyone who knows how, whether that energy or ability is external or innate. Divine energy has to be bestowed on the cleric/paladin/whatever by a source of divine power. A deity can grant or deny access to that energy at whim, and if the deity says "No" then the caster has no recourse; he simply goes without.

Not with a favored soul. A favored soul pretty much gives the metaphorical finger to deities.

The description of the favored soul in _Complete Divine_ assumes a lot. It assumes that the character will be a follower of a church and wants to buy into the faith (this assessment is based on many things, not the least of which is the fact that a favored soul's alignment must be within one step of his deity). Yet the opening description of the class says that favored souls have "virtually no study" with a church; the power "comes naturally" possibly due to "traces of outsider blood". This being the case a favored soul in no way needs a deity or a church to use his powers. While a favored soul of a Lawful or Good aligned deity may very well become a follower of a church and never do anything to step out of line, no one would say the same of a Neutral, Chaotic, or Evil favored soul.

There are a few reasons a person might follow an evil deity- a path to power, out of fear, insanity, depravity, maybe even in some cases genuine love. My guess is with a god such as Vecna* the quest for power would be an obvious attraction to the church. Let's look at two followers of Vecna, a cleric and a favored soul who's power, through blood or miracle, is connected to Vecna. Both of them have recently picked daisies on a sunny day and not kept it a secret, a serious transgression for the church. The cleric prays for access to spell "X" and is denied. Until he does penance for his sin he's cut off. The favored soul can innately cast "X". There's nothing in the rules that says a deity can deny access to a spell that the favored soul can cast, so even knowing that he has sinned and that his fellow clergyman is being punished for it, the favored soul just continues using "X". Vecna says, "Hey pal, knock it off. You're supposed to be in Time Out." The favored soul responds with, "You know what? Bite me. I heard the church of Nerull has better Dental." He casts "X" a few more times before leaving the temple and laughs as he walks down the street to Nerull's cathedral.

To go one step further, the favored soul could change alignments, hook up with the church of Pelor, fight against the church of Vecna using energy derived from the Maimed Lord, and as far as the rules in _Complete Divine_ are concerned all Vecna could do is pout.

There's also nothing to stop a favored soul from being unaffiliated with a church or even an atheist. If the powers are innate they would manifest just as suddenly and mysteriously as any other (dare I make the obvious comparison?) mutation. A mutant doesn't need to go to Xavier's School to be a mutant, and a favored soul doesn't need to go to church to favored soul.

It took me a long time to come around to using the base character classes found outside of the PHB (some nonsense about tradition, I think), and favored soul is the only one I'll still deny players for the very reasons I have here. Arcane magic should be wild and relatively easy to control with some training. Divine magic is a gift that one has to walk a very narrow path to earn.

*I'm using Vecna only because he's a Neutral Evil deity that we should all at least have a passing knowledge of, so if what I'm saying flies in the face of what might be canonical for the church just let it slide.


firevalkyrie wrote:
hopeless wrote:

Would you mind explaining how 4e is still a roleplaying game instead of a powergaming exercise in futility?

I don't buy into the premise of this question. If "powergaming" is fun for you, go for it. One of the character premises I want to run soon is a True Neutral fighter-type whose background is basically, "This character decided to seek his fortune adventuring. After slaying his first orc, he decided, 'hey, this is kinda cool.' He's been killing evil and taking its stuff ever since."
Quote:

Essentially a mercenary which is about par for the course, nice to see someone actually running a Neutral aligned character though.

hopeless wrote:

PS: About the only reason I didn't just quit involves a certain Hollow's Last Hope, a Crown of a Kobold and of course Pathfinder, now that is what I call a point of light in the darkness!

This paragraph is incompatible with any whining about powergaming, I'm sorry. These are fantastic adventures, no doubt, but they are very deadly, and saying that they don't encourage power-built PCs is just foolishness.

Which bit is incompatible, when i read these scenarios i was stunned at the quality and more importantly gave me the inspiration to actually find a way to develop them.

By the way have you seen the thread concerning the characters for these scenarios?

I guess I must be the minority since i never plan out what my characters become but will at least listen when i run games for others.

And I don't encourage power built PCs, its their choice after all and I guess I've been using the points system for them to generate characters too much.


IconoclasticScream wrote:

Here's my problem with Favored Souls- they're their own deities, and they make anything with divine ranks obsolete.

Favored souls are obviously a divine analog to sorcerers. And that would be fine if arcane magic and divine magic worked the same. But they don't.

Hate to tell you this, but they do.

PHB page 30 wrote:
Some clerics devote themselves not to a god but to a cause or a source of divine power. These characters weild magic the way clerics devoted to individual gods do, but they are not associated with any religious institution or any particular practice of worship.

This is why the Fiendish Codices have domains for demon lords who do not have divine rank. In 3rd Edition, by the RAW, there is no actual requirement for a cleric to worship a god. (See also: Ur-Priest.) From a strictly mechanical point of view, clerics who worship gods are actually worse off than clerics who don't, because they have defined limitations on what they can and can't do. (Thematically, of course, it's incredibly difficult to make a cleric who doesn't worship a real god work properly. I once pulled it off with a kobold cleric who was convinced that Kurtlmak was Lawful Good and loved all races equally.)

The way divine spellcasting works, in brief, is not that the spells are granted by a god, but rather granted by a belief.. Usually, this belief is in an entity of enormous power. Usually, these enormously powerful entities are on the scale of power that they have a divine rank.

I'd assume that the domains granted by a god are, thus, borne of the chruch's tradition and not of the actual god, which would also be why available domains vary so dramatically depending on what book you're looking at. Of course, that assumption probably doesn't work very well, because entities with divine rank can gain additional domain as divine thingers... so I suspect this is yet another instance in 3rd edition's long-running tradition of mixed messages.


IconoclasticScream wrote:
Mike McArtor wrote:
Burrito Al Pastor wrote:
I would really love to understand why you react so strongly against Favored Soul.

I too despise favored soul. I'm not sure I could put my feelings into words, though. Just plain hate it.

Here's my problem with Favored Souls- they're their own deities, and they make anything with divine ranks bsolete.

Favored souls are obviously a divine analog to sorcerers. And that would be fine if arcane magic and divine magic worked the same. But they don't. Arcane magic, in a sense, simply exists. Short of a dead magic area, an anti-magic field, or a similar effect, arcane energy can be tapped into by anyone who knows how, whether that energy or ability is external or innate. Divine energy has to be bestowed on the cleric/paladin/whatever by a source of divine power. A deity can grant or deny access to that energy at whim, and if the deity says "No" then the caster has no recourse; he simply goes without.

Not with a favored soul. A favored soul pretty much gives the metaphorical finger to deities.

Nice way to describe it.

I mean it, it is supposed to be the equivalent of the sorceror is to the wizard as this is to the cleric and wholly unnecessary as I have already mentioned, but I always assumed they would have to have a patron deity before they could even cast spells, in some ways your description reminds me of a fairly good attempt to explain the background of a warlock of the Silver Flame except I still think it should be a prestige class, I wonder what would have happened if the sorceror and the favoured soul had been one class instead of two whether this argument would have been raised much sooner or whether it would have been dealt with as a matter of course.

Either way thanks for that reply, I hadn't thought about that potential loophole.

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Pathfinder Accessories, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Charter Superscriber
Mike McArtor wrote:
I too despise favored soul. I'm not sure I could put my feelings into words, though. Just plain hate it.

Really? Why? I only ask because I'm playing a seriously delusional Favored Soul/Sorcerer/Mystic Theurge in the World's Largest Dungeon.

All the other players chose more melee types so the party had no spellcaster. I volunteered to be the divine and arcane guy so we would have all the bases covered. Favored Soul seemed like a nice fit with the Sorcerer so as to take advantage of a single high score (charisma) and the lack of any outside resources.

...of course we're screwed when the undead start showing up.

Liberty's Edge

I'm a favored soul of Wile-E. Coyote in real life.
In the next scene I always show up fully regenerated. ;)


DitheringFool wrote:
Mike McArtor wrote:
I too despise favored soul. I'm not sure I could put my feelings into words, though. Just plain hate it.

Really? Why? I only ask because I'm playing a seriously delusional Favored Soul/Sorcerer/Mystic Theurge in the World's Largest Dungeon.

All the other players chose more melee types so the party had no spellcaster. I volunteered to be the divine and arcane guy so we would have all the bases covered. Favored Soul seemed like a nice fit with the Sorcerer so as to take advantage of a single high score (charisma) and the lack of any outside resources.

...of course we're screwed when the undead start showing up.

Indeed, I'm not even going to point out what I think of Mystic Theurges but best of luck with your character, the last character i generated for a d&d game was a halfling sorceror which I openly declared was going to multiclass only to find my character was the only arcane spellcaster in a party that initially had 13 players.


hopeless wrote:
So why now?

Because they're as good as core at this point, because they don't really warrant being classified as more powerful than other PC races, and because they're a hell of a lot more interesting than some of the other core races.

hopeless wrote:

Because its proof of just how far they nerfed the sorceror. Take a good look, how many bonus feats does the cleric have?

Now how many does the wizard have, now explain to me how turn undead is worth having a new character class with those bonus feats when all that should have been done was a sorceror class with a d6 hd, expanded skills, the choice of being able to cast arcane or divine spells with their limited spell knowledge and there you have what should have been the sorceror class not some pointless addition in a complete book that screams munckin accessory.

Hold on.

hopeless wrote:
Because its proof of just how far they nerfed the sorceror.

Enhance...

hopeless wrote:
nerfed

I suggest, sir, that this word does not mean what you think it means. Sorcerers have never once been nerfed; to nerf something is to retroactively decrease its power. Sorcerers were underpowered from day 1, and all subsequent efforts have been to unnerf them. This is the point of half of Dragon Magic: to give sorcerers their own toys. However, sorcerers still learn their spells a level behind wizards, and that's basically an insurpassable obsticle in the gap between sorcerer and wizard.

I can see I'm going to have to very carefully unravel the rest of this paragraph. (For future reference, sentences should not be as long as your third sentence there.)

hopeless wrote:
Take a good look, how many bonus feats does the cleric have?

Zero.

hopeless wrote:
Now how many does the wizard have

Four floating feats, if you take it for 20 levels.

hopeless wrote:
now explain to me how turn undead is worth having a new character class with those bonus feats when all that should have been done was a sorceror class with a d6 hd, expanded skills, the choice of being able to cast arcane or divine spells with their limited spell knowledge and there you have what should have been the sorceror class

This sentence is a mess, but I need to walk the dog and I have friends coming over for Arkham Horror, so I'll come back and dissect this later.

hopeless wrote:
not some pointless addition in a complete book that screams munckin accessory.

Actually, speaking as a person who likes powerful characters, I can tell you two very good reasons why Favored Soul is not even a little bit optimizable. (I'll forgive your misuse of "munchkin" this time, but there's an important distinction you should probably read up on.) One, sorcerer spell progression is Always Bad. If I may quote...

The Ten Commandments of Character Optimization wrote:


I. Thou shalt not give up caster levels.
...
V. Thou shalt not give up caster levels. Verily, this Commandment is like unto the first; but of such magnitude that it bore mentioning twice.

Sorcerer spell progression is giving up spell advancement, which is tantamout to giving up caster levels. Second, favored souls are basically incapable of qualifying for any divine casting prestige class. They don't have Turn Undead, which is a reasonable oversight given that the Turn mechanics are a joke, and they don't have Knowledge (Religion), which is largely unjustifiable and my biggest issue with the class. Those are the two most common prerequisites for divine casting classes. Favored Souls are awesome, but they are not optimization-friendly.

hopeless wrote:
And as for warlocks they aren't a character class, they're at most a prestige class after all those abilities are way out of whack for a starting character when compared to the others.

See above regarding dog & Arkham Horror.


hopeless wrote:
Blah
Burrito Al Pastor wrote:
Blah Blah
hopeless wrote:
Blah Blah Blah
Burrito Al Pastor wrote:
Blah Blah Blah

I think that I can see where this is going...

Anyone else for a cup of tea and a scone whilst we wait?

I am still not sure what is and isn't confirmed for 4E, so I think that I shall wait and see with my own eyes when I pick the the PHB up. Though I must admit that I certainly do not care for Gnomes at all, so their loss will certainly not be one that I shall share and mourne.

As far as Warlocks are concerned, I've always liked them (though I have never played one as a PC, only run a couple as a GM), and do not consider them 'Uber' (please note, not quoting any one person's words here by intention). Indeed, the call to limit their Eldritch Blast to a resticted number per day should only be acted upon, if the other classes have their attack modes similarly limited. Perhaps a Fighter can only swing a melee weapon a number of times per day (equal to his Fighter level times his Constitution modifier) before he needs to rest up?
After saying all that I would agree that a Warlock is indeed more 'powerful' than certain classes at 1st level, but I would also say that they are considerably weaker (in my humble opinion) than these same classes when at 20th level.

Incidently, isn't there the option for a Cleric to simply select two domains and follow an ideal rather than a God? Belief over personification-worship.
As the GM, you could simply rule that a Favoured Soul must indeed put his faith and worship in one God and follow that path as a Cleric would, suffering the same pit falls and rewards of faith as their PHB kin.

As for Sorcerers, I too would liked to have seen them sporting D6 HD.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Maps, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Charter Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Burrito Al Pastor wrote:
The way divine spellcasting works, in brief, is not that the spells are granted by a god, but rather granted by a belief..

Not that I want to get into any sort of debate over this, because I honestly don't care, but I think the whole "belief" thing and not needing a deity is for campaigns in which, for whatever reason, the DM doesn't want to use defined gods- in other words, games in which clerics can follow philosophies of Good and Evil, and in which druids draw their power from Nature.

In settings with detailed pantheons and deities, it's pretty well established and understood that clerics get their spells from gods (even in Third Edition). That's why they pray for them at the times appointed by their deity (PHB p. 179). I'd go so far as to say it's why gods not only have clerics but laymen as well. If the gods aren't those who cause miracles (and what else are those divine spells if not miracles?), but rather they are caused by a belief, then who cares about a god? Why tithe to the church of the healer god when you could instead believe hard enough and a rock will grant you access to a Cure Light Wounds spell? Why risk the wrath of a vengeful evil deity when you could have belief in a chicken and get a reality-altering Miracle spell?

Saying that the gods have nothing to do with granting spells (and it says they do right there on page 32 of the PHB ("[clerics] meditate or pray for their spells, receiving them through their own strength of faith or as divine inspiration" (emphasis mine) and page 6 of Complete Divine ("Clerics and other divine spellcasters receive their spells by praying to the deity, who bestows upon them a measure of divine power.")) makes them all, ultimately, impotent in regards to their own followers.

But what do I know? In a game that encourages you to interpret and change the rules as best suits your tastes, I was wrong the first time, and I'm sure I'm wrong this time.


IconoclasticScream wrote:
Burrito Al Pastor wrote:
The way divine spellcasting works, in brief, is not that the spells are granted by a god, but rather granted by a belief..

Not that I want to get into any sort of debate over this, because I honestly don't care, but I think the whole "belief" thing and not needing a deity is for campaigns in which, for whatever reason, the DM doesn't want to use defined gods- in other words, games in which clerics can follow philosophies of Good and Evil, and in which druids draw their power from Nature.

In settings with detailed pantheons and deities, it's pretty well established and understood that clerics get their spells from gods (even in Third Edition). That's why they pray for them at the times appointed by their deity (PHB p. 179). I'd go so far as to say it's why gods not only have clerics but laymen as well. If the gods aren't those who cause miracles (and what else are those divine spells if not miracles?), but rather they are caused by a belief, then who cares about a god? Why tithe to the church of the healer god when you could instead believe hard enough and a rock will grant you access to a Cure Light Wounds spell? Why risk the wrath of a vengeful evil deity when you could have belief in a chicken and get a reality-altering Miracle spell?

Saying that the gods have nothing to do with granting spells (and it says they do right there on page 32 of the PHB ("[clerics] meditate or pray for their spells, receiving them through their own strength of faith or as divine inspiration" (emphasis mine) and page 6 of Complete Divine ("Clerics and other divine spellcasters receive their spells by praying to the deity, who bestows upon them a measure of divine power.")) makes them all, ultimately, impotent in regards to their own followers.

But what do I know? In a game that encourages you to interpret and change the rules as best suits your tastes, I was wrong the first time, and I'm sure I'm wrong this time.

I know in the Forgotten Realms you cannot gain divine spells without a patron god, although there are a few feats that allow you to gain power from what's left of a dead god's power or to be a heretic of your faith (although if you are a heretic, the underlying supposition is that you are gaining your spells, unknowingly, from a deity with ulterior motives).

Even in the Living Greyhawk Gazetteer it mentions that you have to have a patron deity to gain divine spells. So while "core" may be more open, the thing that "core" was based on was more restrictive.

On the other hand, I think in Eberron you can rub a Warforged head for luck and gain divine spells or something. Not sure about that though.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Maps, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Charter Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
KnightErrantJR wrote:
On the other hand, I think in Eberron you can rub a Warforged head for luck and gain divine spells or something. Not sure about that though.

That was, as the kids say, mad funny.


As long as you worship either the concept of "Warforged are Cute" or "I rub heads for Divine Power" sure.

Dude, in Eberron, you can worship the CONCEPT OF CHEESE AND HAVE THE FOOD DOMAIN AND THE ROT DOMAIN!


Burrito Al Pastor wrote:
hopeless wrote:

So why now?

Because they're as good as core at this point, because they don't really warrant being classified as more powerful than other PC races, and because they're a hell of a lot more interesting than some of the other core races.

So its because they're considered cooler than what they had in 3.whatever then.

hopeless wrote:

nerfed

I suggest, sir, that this word does not mean what you think it means. Sorcerers have never once been nerfed; to nerf something is to retroactively decrease its power. Sorcerers were underpowered from day 1, and all subsequent efforts have been to unnerf them. This is the point of half of Dragon Magic: to give sorcerers their own toys. However, sorcerers still learn their spells a level behind wizards, and that's basically an insurpassable obsticle in the gap between sorcerer and wizard.

Perhaps I should have gone into greater length but I heard (sounds better as I can't confirm this) that originally the sorceror had a d6 hd and the capacity to learn spells from both the arcane and divine spell lists albeit limited by how many spells they could learn. They were then dowgraded as it made them more favourable than the wizard and later claims that spontaneous casting was more useful than 4 bonus feats given as an excuse which still doesn't wash.

]I can see I'm going to have to very carefully unravel the rest of this paragraph. (For future reference, sentences should not be as long as your third sentence there.)[/quote wrote:

Yes I'm afraid I am that longwinded.

]This sentence is a mess, but I need to walk the dog and I have friends coming over for Arkham Horror, so I'll come back and dissect this later.[/quote wrote:

Best of luck with that, hope the dog enjoys it too.

[quote=] Actually, speaking as a person who likes powerful characters, I can tell you two very good reasons why Favored Soul is not even a little bit optimizable. (I'll forgive your misuse of "munchkin" this time, but there's an important distinction you should probably read up on.) One, sorcerer spell progression is Always Bad. If I may quote...

The Ten Commandments of Character Optimization wrote:

I. Thou shalt not give up caster levels.
...
V. Thou shalt not give up caster levels. Verily, this Commandment is like unto the first; but of such magnitude that it bore mentioning twice.

Reasonable, I'll have to double check the word munckin though as I was pointing out that whilst it may not rival the warlock in terms of extra abilities that serve no use other than well, I definitely need another word then, I'd try powergaming but I've been told thats wht everybody does... except me but I do agree they should have done something about the sorceror before going to 3.5 though.


Burrito Al Pastor wrote:
Sir, if you (or anybody else) seeks a deep, robust, immersive game of D&D that does not involve kicking in doors, fireballing goblins, stabbing beholders in the eye, and generally killing (evil) sentient beings and taking their loot, you're doing it wrong.

Thank you for reminding me why I hate the 'D&D' mentality.

hopeless wrote:
About the only reason I didn't just quit involves a certain Hollow's Last Hope, a Crown of a Kobold and of course Pathfinder, now that is what I call a point of light in the darkness!

Why not convert material to another system?

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Pathfinder Accessories, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Charter Superscriber
Balabanto wrote:

As long as you worship either the concept of "Warforged are Cute" or "I rub heads for Divine Power" sure.

Dude, in Eberron, you can worship the CONCEPT OF CHEESE AND HAVE THE FOOD DOMAIN AND THE ROT DOMAIN!

Yummmm...cheese


Bah! Pie is the one, true faith!

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Pathfinder Accessories, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Charter Superscriber

Here is the latest blurb from the source as ripped off from ENWorld and originally here:

James Wyatt wrote:
An example: We've revealed that tieflings are in the new Player's Handbook. Well, they've long been a part of D&D, and they're thus a part of Eberron (see Player's Guide p. 123). The rules for playing a tiefling are in the 3.5 MM. So we don't need to do much to make sure tieflings are as playable in Eberron as they are in core D&D—just make sure they're playable as adventurers. They're not suddenly going to overrun the world, form a new dragonmarked house, or have a nation of their own.

So in case you missed it: tieflings are core.


Judging by the BDSM gear I'd say they're hardcore. O_o


Laithoron wrote:
Judging by the BDSM gear I'd say they're hardcore. O_o

nice


Laithoron wrote:
Judging by the BDSM gear I'd say they're hardcore.

"That's some (censored) up, repugnant (censored) right there."


CourtFool wrote:
Burrito Al Pastor wrote:
Sir, if you (or anybody else) seeks a deep, robust, immersive game of D&D that does not involve kicking in doors, fireballing goblins, stabbing beholders in the eye, and generally killing (evil) sentient beings and taking their loot, you're doing it wrong.

Thank you for reminding me why I hate the 'D&D' mentality.

hopeless wrote:
About the only reason I didn't just quit involves a certain Hollow's Last Hope, a Crown of a Kobold and of course Pathfinder, now that is what I call a point of light in the darkness!

Why not convert material to another system?

I'm seriously considering it, the only one I think would suit is Runequest but that involves stepping on the toes of a friend who's running an old style runequest game and I'm hesitant to do that.


hopeless wrote:
...the only one I think would suit is Runequest...

G.U.R.P.S., Hero and True20 would all suit. I have heard rumint (Rumor Intelligence) that Castles and Crusades may be providing a conversion. I am not familiar with the system, so I can not say how plausible that is. If you want to go the indie route, I know that Fudge and PDQ (Prose Descriptive Qualities) could easily handle the material. Specifically, Fate and Questers of the Middle Realms which are cousins of the aforementioned.

Grand Lodge

hopeless wrote:
firevalkyrie wrote:
hopeless wrote:
Would you mind explaining how 4e is still a roleplaying game instead of a powergaming exercise in futility?
I don't buy into the premise of this question. If "powergaming" is fun for you, go for it. One of the character premises I want to run soon is a True Neutral fighter-type whose background is basically, "This character decided to seek his fortune adventuring. After slaying his first orc, he decided, 'hey, this is kinda cool.' He's been killing evil and taking its stuff ever since."
Quote:

Essentially a mercenary which is about par for the course, nice to see someone actually running a Neutral aligned character though.

hopeless wrote:

PS: About the only reason I didn't just quit involves a certain Hollow's Last Hope, a Crown of a Kobold and of course Pathfinder, now that is what I call a point of light in the darkness!

This paragraph is incompatible with any whining about powergaming, I'm sorry. These are fantastic adventures, no doubt, but they are very deadly, and saying that they don't encourage power-built PCs is just foolishness.
Which bit is incompatible, when i read these scenarios i was stunned at the quality and more importantly gave me the inspiration to actually find a way to develop them.

By the way have you seen the thread concerning the characters for these scenarios?

I guess I must be the minority since i never plan out what my characters become but will at least listen when i run games for others.

And I don't encourage power built PCs, its their choice after all and I guess I've been using the points system for them to generate characters too much.

I've played in HLH and CotKK and they're both wonderful games. They've got a lot going for them and they're very well-written. But they are insanely deadly, and my fairly well-optimized Warblade (not completely optimized, but I'd say I had him at about 90% of the maximum abilities of a Stone Dragon-focused warblade) barely survived both of them. In HLH he limped off the field at the end of the day with a whopping two hit points left, in Kobold King he was under five at the end of the encounter with the eponymous king.

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