RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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I've been looking at the Shugenja (the far-eastern priest base class found in the Complete Divine) and it seems drastically inferior to the Cleric: no armor proficiency, no undead turning (or access to the Divine feats that require turning), and a drastically limited array of spells.
Has anyone played a Shugenja? Is the class as weak as it looks? If so, what have you done to beef it up?
My first shots: adding light armor proficiency, allowing a Genasi character to favor the Shugenja class (in his chosen elemental specialty) without the +1 level adjustment; and giving bonus metamagic feats to a Shugenja, which apply to spells in his favored element.
Comments?
The shugenja isn't supposed to be comparable to the cleric. It's supposed to be comparable to the sorcerer. Effectively, it's an elementalist themed caster originally developed for Rokugan (Legend of the Five Rings).
The Rokugan setting does not have bards, clerics, druids, paladins, or wizards. It also does not have wu jen. The shugenja are the priests/spellcasters of the nobility and sorcerers are usually tied to blood magic and the taint (setting specific corrupting "evil").
I'm currently playing one now. I would agree that they are more comparable to a sorcerer with an elemental theme. They get more known spells at any given spell level than the sorcerer and cast the same number each day. I believe that they also get a comparable weapon list to sorcerers if not a few more (can't remember since my DM uses weapon groups). Their Sense Elements ability can be more useful than a familar depending on how strict your DM is, since it can basically be used as a sense creature or sense treasure ability. The spell choices a pretty varied meaning you could be the primary healer type by focusing on Water or damage dealer by choosing Fire. More protection based by choosing Earth or stealthy by choosing Air. You only loose access to one element based on your choice so you can fill two roles ok as well. Overall I like the class.
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I have played a shugenja, from level 1 to level 9, and the only real issue I came across was how restrictive their spell selection ended up being. Unlike a sorcerer, who spontaneously selects any spell they want (only restricted by how many they can select), the shugenja's restrictions on when they can select from which element made it tricky in making a good choice. I had selected "air" as my element (for travel capabilities), and the more esoteric school of learning (due to certain campaign situations). However, I eventually found that my combat capabilities were greatly reduced (specializing in "fire" or "earth" would've been ok), and I ended up relying a lot on my out-of-element healing spells (as I was the divine spellcaster of the group). There were some feats I ended up taking to maximize on what I had (the reserve feats from "Complete Mage" were amazing, wish I had them right from character creation), but I ended up being overly dissatisfied with the character.
With the character, not the class. Would I play a shugenja again? Probably. Not as a primary divine spellcaster (unless there was already a bard or favoured soul), but maybe to complement a druid or cleric. I think the problems I encountered are similar to that encountered by favoured souls, possibly due to how the class spell lists are different than the wizard/sorcerer (I'll explain below). I've never had use for "turn undead", and neither has most of the clerics I've DMed for (when someone does go to use it, it's if they have "Greater Turning", and then we're digging for the PHB to see what the mechanic is), so that in itself is not really an issue, though the "sense elements" ability didn't appear to be much more useful. I think selecting "fire" as a preferred element may also provide more combat effectiveness (at the expense of lacking healing spells), but perhaps "earth" may be a more well-rounded element. They also get access to a single martial weapon, which is better than clerics and sorcerers, and their hit-die and saves are higher than a sorcerers. I agree with the previous post that you need to see them as more of a fusion between clerics and sorcerers, rather than compare them straight across to clerics or druids.
To explain my comparison of a cleric's spell list with that of a wizard/sorcerer: the w/s spell list was developed on the assumption that you will not have access to all the spells on that list. Wizards learn 2 spells per level, and while they have potential to research or crib notes from others, the downtime and expense involved still usually restricts their spell knowledge from knowing "all" spells (even if you only use the PHB). Sorcerers are even more limited in knowledge. Clerics (and druids), on the other hand, may select freely every day from their complete spell list - therefore, they "know" all the spells available to them. Now, with that in mind, w/s spells tend to need more "bang for their buck", as making that choice to learn the spell is a very key decision that effects every encounter ahead of them. C/D? The spells need to have a use, but not really as big or utilitarian of a use because the choice to cast that spell only effects the next encounter (and they can use that slot to spontaneously cast a more useful spell if it turns out to be a bad idea anyhow). With that in mind, restricting spell access for divine spellcasters (whether favoured souls or shugenja) actually sets them up with a bit of a disadvantage because now those spell selections have a greater impact, but the spells they have access to aren't geared towards providing that impact. I know, shugenja have a tailored spell list that includes spells normally not available to clerics, but with the balancing of the element restriction, they are still impeded on their full capability.
I've been looking at the Shugenja (the far-eastern priest base class found in the Complete Divine) and it seems drastically inferior to the Cleric: no armor proficiency, no undead turning (or access to the Divine feats that require turning), and a drastically limited array of spells.
Has anyone played a Shugenja? Is the class as weak as it looks? If so, what have you done to beef it up?
My first shots: adding light armor proficiency, allowing a Genasi character to favor the Shugenja class (in his chosen elemental specialty) without the +1 level adjustment; and giving bonus metamagic feats to a Shugenja, which apply to spells in his favored element.
Comments?
I have played *with* a Shugenja, and while their spell list is "limited", that's hardly a large factor for a class that has spells known. Also, any class that has Barkskin, Heal, Haste and Disintegrate (and Chain Lightning I believe?) as class spells is mighty powerful in my book.
Nothing weak about it. I'd call it stronger than sorcerer, far more offensive, and nearly as defensive, as the Cleric.
I own Oriental Adventures (3e book for Asian themed campaigns) and it has the shugenja (and the samurai) and I personally think that the classes in the OA book are far better than their 3.5 counterparts. Theres far more customization than the 3.5 ones because they have 8 clans and 2 spell sets from each clan (I think).
On a completely unrelated topic the samurai is actually exactly like the kensai (Complete Warrior) but it has 20 levels to it and you start out with a masterwork weapon.
my 2 cents
They nerfed a number of the OA classes between OA and the Complete series. I believe dragon 318 has a 3.5 update for the OA classes, and I don't know how that matches up with the Complete Divine Shugenja. I've only played a Sohei from OA, which was kind of fun--in part because of the character concept I had.
I tend to agree that the Shugenja is rather weak vis a vis other casting options. I gave them access to two domains just like a cleric and that pretty much solved the problem right there. With a couple of domains they get access to even more spells (if only in a limited manner) and a couple of neat abilities as well - things increases their diversity even more and makes them much more appealing.
I own Oriental Adventures (3e book for Asian themed campaigns) and it has the shugenja (and the samurai) and I personally think that the classes in the OA book are far better than their 3.5 counterparts. Theres far more customization than the 3.5 ones because they have 8 clans and 2 spell sets from each clan (I think).
On a completely unrelated topic the samurai is actually exactly like the kensai (Complete Warrior) but it has 20 levels to it and you start out with a masterwork weapon.
my 2 cents
Actually I looked at the description for the OA Shugenja next to the description for the CD Shugenja and in crunch they are word for word IDENTICAL except for a couple examples from OA that were quite frankly unneeded. The spell lists are similar and the different order lists are very similar and in fact the 3.5 version is, on the whole, better than the 3.0 version simply because a number of the OA shugenja orders spells deal with taint, jade, and honour, which are elements normally outside the game unless you actually play in Rokugan or use either the UA or HoH updates to the taint mechanic and even then shugenjas would likely gain access to associated spells through spell list tweaks. They did nerf the samurai although the intimidation mechanic could be adjusted in a useful manner and the spirit shaman is a totally different class from the OA shaman (which I actually find intriguing and the OA shaman is one of my favourite base classes). Don't have CAr with me (a friend is borrowing it for a while) so I can't do a side by side between 3.0 and 3.5 wu jen.
My 2 cents (or cp)