Tell Me Truly, Threadjackers Thread


4th Edition

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There were a couple of things brought up in the Tell Me Truly thread I wanted to reply to. Everyone else should feel free to "dump" their comments in this thread to keep Erik's thread as clean as it is.

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Talion09 wrote:
Some of the changes sound good (I actually like Tome of Battle, which seems to be a minority opinion)...

I wouldn't say you are in the minority. It did win the Origin Award for best supplement after all... And by my Gather Information check, I would say the Paizo posters are about a 50 / 50 split.

Rambling Scribe wrote:
...and I can hear Shadowrun calling my name (I'm two editions behind there)....

I'd recommend only going to 3rd Edition.

4th was too "streamlined" (or "dumbed down," if you prefer) for my tastes.
But I hear many people like it. (Sounds awfully familiar...)

DitheringFool wrote:
I understand 3.5 is not perfect. So fix it, don't totally from the ground up start from scratch do it over. 4e is not an evolution of the game. It is a totally different game that they are calling DnD.

Amen Brother! :-)

Liberty's Edge

Tome of Magic was WAY better than Tome of Battle.


The Eldritch Mr. Shiny wrote:
Tome of Magic was WAY better than Tome of Battle.

I was upset with Tome of Magic. I wanted a revamp of some of the old AD&D Tome of Magic stuff, specifically true wild magic, not that lame version in earlier 3.5 stuff. Unfortunately I have yet to read Tome of Battle but I have only heard great things about it, outside of these boards that is.

:D


Reckless wrote:
Begrudgingly C. So far, not too impressed with either the information or the way it's being doled out to us. Thank the gods who haven't been killed yet for EN World. Finding information on the WOTC site is like having to choose the blue pill every day ("You have to be signed up for the DI to gain access to that information, Citizen." Ughh.)

Another Hallelujah! from me.


also I forgot to add these little wotc rants
what the heck??
they are having a rules compendium for 3.5 coming out in october now???
i guess that's good though for the people sticking with 3.5.

one other thing is people have mentioned saga star wars (not to be confused with that saga marvel card game yuckiness they came out with years back ugggg) I figure that after 4.0 comes out they will have a revised saga star wars come out, so that will be 4 editions of starwars since D20 started... wow. another annoying thing about that is you have to have all the versions if you want the stats for all the characters.

you may ask, well what does this have to do with this thread or D&D? well it's indicative IMHO of the "okay rush this out and we'll fix whats wrong in a revised edition in a year or so" view that hasbro, and well software (pc games especially) companies have. just shove it out the door and "patch it later".

im just saying I hope 4.0 is "completely baked" when they get it released

The Exchange

I thought Tome of Magic was one of the most creative pieces of work I have.

All three magic systems will add something to my world.

Tome of Battle sounds like a power gamers toy from what posts I have read.

Cheers

Sovereign Court Contributor

Just saw Swirler's post in the main thread and it reminded me:

I don't know why grappling has become the poster child of rules revision. Don't get me wrong, the rules are poorly worded, and need clarification, but they work pretty well, once you understand them.

It drove me crazy when the film clip showed the game come to a grinding halt over grapple, but only because the idiot players couldn't find the rules. No index, no book mark, they just randomly flip pages at high speed. My brother uses grapple a lot. He drops his PHB on the table and it comes open at the grapple section, but we rarely need to actually reference it anymore.

In the video, they say that grappling provokes an attack of opportunity, and the guy gives up. Is that because he doesn't want the troll to hit him, or because he doesn't understand AoOs? and how freaking hard is it to remember that pretty much any special combat maneuver provokes an AoO unless you have the improved variant?

I don't mind if they come up with better grapple rules for 4th, I just hope they don't throw out the concept or make it totally lame in the name of simplicity. Which pretty much sums up my feelings about 4E.


KnightErrantJR wrote:

Between the flavor changes in "core" D&D (Eladrins, Succubi), the direction of 4th edition FR, and the fact that you can't, by any stretch of the imagination, describe wizards as having abilities remotely the same as wizards of other edition, it just doesn't feel like D&D to me.

All due respect to KEjr, Saying the next edition doesn't feel like D&D to me just highlights the fact that 3.0/3.5 didn't really feel like previous editions of D&D to me.

I have a hard time putting my finger on specific mechanics that cause this feeling, but in general, even though I love 3.X D&D, it does NOT feel like previous editions to me. Leveling up comes to quickly, with the CR system, it's no longer reasonable to throw large groups against my PCs (not that it stops me), and somehow.... well, somehow it just doesn't feel normal to have everybody be the same level all the time.

Dark Archive Bella Sara Charter Superscriber

A lot of people have posted in the thread to say "I have more 3.5 books than there are grains of sand. I haven't played through them, and I'm not switching until I do."

Okay...what does this have to do with 4e again? By that logic, you should also cancel your subscription to pathfinder and quit buying 3e books in general until you play your way through this backlog. If it takes you 18 months to play through an adventure path/killer module and a new adventure path/killer module comes out every 6 months, your plan to play through all your product assumes either (i) that you will quit purchasing and thereby work your way through the backlog or (ii) increase your playtime to say, 3-6 months per adventure path/killer module just to make your way through your backlog and begin to get "current."

Seems to me that you failed to think your cunning plan all the way through and that 4e is actually enabling to meet your goal by providing you with (i). Some people would point out that, given your concern to play through your old material, you may wish to forgo purchasing new material as it comes out given that you could always purchase said material at a later date and possibly at a lower price due to the second hand market. In addition, you may not really want Paizo to stick to 3.5 given that if they do, your backlog problem will only become worse. At what point do you quit purchasing 3.5 material because of your backlog?

Or, maybe the above backlog argument is flawed to begin with and you actually purchase rpg material because you enjoy reading it and that not every ounce of utility must be drained before you have made a satisfactory purchasing decision.

Just saying.


French Wolf wrote:

I thought Tome of Magic was one of the most creative pieces of work I have.

All three magic systems will add something to my world.

I just meant I was dissapointed in no wild magic revamp. I havent actually read it through so I cant comment on what was good or bad in it, I just know what I had wanted, which is why i hadn't gotten it yet

Liberty's Edge

Your words confound me,Sebastian Lawspeaker. "elalalalalalala...."


Sebastian wrote:
Okay...what does this have to do with 4e again?

That is easy enough to answer.

Supply and demand. Just because 4th Edition is being supplied, doesn't mean there is a demand for it.

Those people are saying, rather clearly, that unless 4th Edition is a Divine Gift - there is no need to buy into it.

Sebastian wrote:
By that logic, you should also cancel your subscription to pathfinder and quit buying 3e books in general until you play your way through this backlog.

You do have a point there.

But I think those people (as well as Paizo) would rather support the company that at least takes the time to hear what their customers think.

Unless you would rather people completely stop supporting Paizo because of 4th Edition?

Sebastian wrote:
Seems to me that you failed to think your cunning plan all the way through and that 4e is actually enabling to meet your goal...

And it seems to me that you are trying, yet again, to start a fight with people. The same people that respect your opinion, if not you, and don't try to pop your bubble.

Can you "just say" why you are trying so hard to pick that fight?

Liberty's Edge

Naah,...he's cool. I just mess with him sometimes.

Dark Archive Bella Sara Charter Superscriber

Heathansson wrote:
Naah,...he's cool. I just mess with him sometimes.

You're the only one that understands me.

*sob*

Liberty's Edge

"That should...worry you, hyewmon." He said in his best Ferengi imitation.

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Companion, Pathfinder Accessories, Pawns, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Charter Superscriber
Sebastian wrote:
A lot of people have posted in the thread to say "I have more 3.5 books than there are grains of sand. I haven't played through them, and I'm not switching until I do."

You are correct: 4e blows independently of my curent holdings. I'm just glad I have a lot of awesome stuff to play through!

I am not a fan of the dumbing down of DnD to satisfy whiny players and lazy DMs. 3.5 is not perfect. Fix it, don't axe gnomes and vancian magic. Don't put tons of cool stuff on a subscription service and call it optional. Don't speed up leveling to appease the short of attention span. Don't turn demons into devils and tieflings as core. Don't make wizards into Diablo II Sorcerers with their fancy orbs.

this says it best:

Talion09 wrote:
IMHO, Changes to improve mechanics = Good. Changes to 30+ year old fluff for the sake of change = Bad


Sebastian wrote:
Okay...what does this have to do with 4e again?

Um…that I am not switching to 4e for a while? Seems rather relevant to the question to me.

Sebastian wrote:
By that logic, you should also cancel your subscription to pathfinder and quit buying 3e books in general until you play your way through this backlog.

Oh! Your issue is not with the relevance but the logic. Why didn't you just say so?

What subscription to Pathfinder? And no, I am not buying more 3.5 books.

Sebastian wrote:
If it takes you 18 months to play through an adventure path/killer module…

How did you know how long it takes me to play through an adventure? Did one of my loose lipped players tell you? Everyone knows Vinny has no idea what he is talking about.

Sebastian wrote:
(i) that you will quit purchasing and thereby work your way through the backlog

Are you still on about my purchasing habits? Do you need a graph?

Sebastian wrote:
(ii) increase your playtime to say, 3-6 months per adventure path/killer module just to make your way through your backlog and begin to get "current."

I told you, Vinny is a git! He uses the metric system for time.

Sebastian wrote:
Seems to me that you failed to think your cunning plan all the way through

Whoa! Who said I had to think my plan through? Oh that is right, no one can say anything until they have meditated on the subject and conducted a thorough product testing.

Sebastian wrote:
…and that 4e is actually enabling to meet your goal by providing you with (i).

Wow, I am getting old. I had to read that five times to figure out what you were trying to say. I really do not need WotC to provide me with a stopping point. I am a big boy. I can set one all for myself.

Sebastian wrote:
Some people would point out that, given your concern to play through your old material, you may wish to forgo purchasing new material as it comes out given that you could always purchase said material at a later date and possibly at a lower price due to the second hand market.

Redundant much? Thank you for making my point for me. And here I thought it had escaped you.

Sebastian wrote:
In addition, you may not really want Paizo to stick to 3.5 given that if they do, your backlog problem will only become worse.

It could continue to grow worse if they switch too. Can you turn this car around so I can go look for your point?

Sebastian wrote:
At what point do you quit purchasing 3.5 material because of your backlog?

Are you asking or telling…'cause earlier you suggested WotC was helping me out here.

Sebastian wrote:
Or, maybe the above backlog argument is flawed to begin with and you actually purchase rpg material because you enjoy reading it and that not every ounce of utility must be drained before you have made a satisfactory purchasing decision.

I am just not following you here, Sebastian. Maybe you were referring to someone else.


Sebastian wrote:
... exactly what I've been thinking

It's kinda eerie how much I've come to agree with Sebastian. I was going to comment about the same thing he did here, but I didn't want to get roasted by the responses. Lucky me Sebastian did it for me!

French Wolf wrote:
I thought Tome of Magic was one of the most creative pieces of work I have....Tome of Battle sounds like a power gamers toy from what posts I have read.

I just want to point out something worth noting. You liked a book you actually bought and read, and you dislike a book you only heard about secondhand.

Rambling Scribe wrote:
I don't know why grappling has become the poster child of rules revision. Don't get me wrong, the rules are poorly worded, and need clarification, but they work pretty well, once you understand them.

My problem with grappling isn't the actual step-by-step rules. Yes, they are fairly easy (about 4 steps in all i think). My problem is that it is too complex without really needing to be. There are a dozen different options you have once you are grappling, many of which my players never use (either because they don't know them, or they wouldn't work for them). Some options require grapple checks, some don't. Some are standard actions, some are attacks, some are full-round actions. There is an option for attacking an opponent and damaging an opponent (one is either unarmed, natural weapon, or light weapon and the other is unarmed only). And probably the worst thing is that the one thing my players almost always want to do is "I try to help pull Bob free!" There isn't anything very clear on how to do this. I think the "multiple grapplers" mechanic is too muddy and doesn't really depict this that well anyway.

/end grapple rant

I do hope they keep some sort of grapple option. And I agree it's not as difficult as it is sometimes made out to be. But I really hope they change it, because difficult or not, I don't like the current rules

That's it. I just had a couple thoughts I wanted to share

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Companion, Pathfinder Accessories, Pawns, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Charter Superscriber
Disenchanter wrote:

But I think those people (as well as Paizo) would rather support the company that at least takes the time to hear what their customers think.

Unless you would rather people completely stop supporting Paizo because of 4th Edition?

Exactly! I'm not so short sighted to think I will be able to avoid 4e forever. Necromancer Games is already on board and planning on producing an intro module like they did back for 3.0! Goodman Games and a host of other respectful, game-loving companies are already making plans. Paizo is trying to do the right thing and make the best business decision they can.

Sooner or later 4e will be the game. Maybe I'll play that game...but it doesn't mean I have to feel all warm and fuzzy about it today.


I'm undecided until I get more info. I'm sure I'll pick up the 4e PHB at least. Although I pick up a lot of books for the read, I do one day hope to use them. What's bothersome to me is it seems WotC isn't listening clearly to their customers. That's what is so impressive about Paizo, is their direct involvement with it's customers (and the great products).


Paolo wrote:
I was going to comment about the same thing he did here, but I didn't want to get roasted by the responses.

I would not have roasted you…well…unless you were as snarky as Sebastian. Snarky Trolls of a feather and all...

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Companion, Pathfinder Accessories, Pawns, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Charter Superscriber
Rune Scryber wrote:
I'm undecided until I get more info. I'm sure I'll pick up the 4e PHB at least. Although I pick up a lot of books for the read, I do one day hope to use them. What's bothersome to me is it seems WotC isn't listening clearly to their customers. That's what is so impressive about Paizo, is their direct involvement with it's customers (and the great products).

Question? Why buy the PHB when you can try-it-before-you-buy-it with the SRD?

I'm asking sincerely because it seems more prudent to thoroughly digest the SRD before spending any money on the real deal.

On the flip side, I'll probably buy the preview books (through Paizo of course) to get a heads up...

The Exchange

I agree Paolo I shall read my copy of Tome of Battle and let you know what I really think.

Cheers


Rune Scryber wrote:
That's what is so impressive about Paizo, is their direct involvement with it's customers (and the great products).

Booya! Gotta give props to Paizo.

Dark Archive Bella Sara Charter Superscriber

CourtFool, I like the cut of your jib. Just one item that I want to respond to:

CourtFool wrote:


Wow, I am getting old. I had to read that five times to figure out what you were trying to say. I really do not need WotC to provide me with a stopping point. I am a big boy. I can set one all for myself.

That's why I lead with the question as to the relevance to 4e. If you've got a sacred oath to play through every 3.5 book you've purchased, you're going to have more problems fulfilling that oath if 4e is not released than if it is.

I'm sorry to have to break it to everyone, but there is a finite amount of time in this life. While I would dearly love to go back and play a truckload of video games that were released in the past couple years and which I have not had time to play, barring the end of adult responsibilities and a whole lot of summer vacation, it's not going to happen. Yeah, the release of the PS3 makes it even less likely that I will go back and play the good PS2 games I missed, but sadly the world refuses to accomodate my leisure schedule.

There isn't time to play through every adventure path/epic module. Paizo's not going to stop releasing them so you can catch up. The real world's not going to provide you with more game time so you can play more. You're going to have to take responsibility and pick and choose the adventures you play and allocate your time accordingly. Yeah, that'll be a lot easier if you don't switch to 4e, but the outrage regarding your backlog should be directed at your over-purchasing, not Paizo/WotC's over-production.

CourtFool wrote:
I am just not following you here, Sebastian. Maybe you were referring to someone else.

Nope. You just need to read more carefully. The post is directed specifically at you. YOU!

The Exchange

Swirler - I too would have liked revamped wild mage. But what was in the book hit the spot.

Cheers


Of course! I am the only one on the boards that matters.

So what you are really saying is that it is my fault WotC is rolling out 4e.

Liberty's Edge

I will not fall for your sneaky words,Sebastian the ophidian law speaky-trickery speaker talky guy. Human.

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Companion, Pathfinder Accessories, Pawns, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Charter Superscriber
CourtFool wrote:

Of course! I am the only one on the boards that matters.

So what you are really saying is that it is my fault WotC is rolling out 4e.

Curse you, CourtFool! Curse you!

Dark Archive Bella Sara Charter Superscriber

CourtFool wrote:

Of course! I am the only one on the boards that matters.

So what you are really saying is that it is my fault WotC is rolling out 4e.

I didn't want to point any fingers, but you did show up around the time 4e was announced...

Plus, given that we are just figments of your imagination, as is the rest of the world, just about everything is your fault.

Dark Archive Bella Sara Charter Superscriber

Heathansson wrote:
I will not fall for your sneaky words,Sebastian the ophidian law speaky-trickery speaker talky guy. Human.

Heath An-Sawn, ipsa loquitor. in rem. ad hoc. Ig-Pa Atin-Lay.

Mha ha!

Edit: P.S. - Gi Joe is a doll.


Aha! You are not the real Sebastian® because the real Sebastian® would point fingers.


Erik Mona wrote:

Thanks for the feedback, all.

I didn't make this a poll because I want to know a lot more than just which of the options you're leaning toward. The WHY at this point is as important to me as the WHAT.

--Erik

[between the lines]...because we are trying to determine how soon to switch [/between the lines]

[insert maniacal laughter here]


Sebastian wrote:
**Makes some good points**

Part of the large number of 3.5 books I have are rules-related material I want to try out. I would continue to buy 3.5 products with which I can use these rules (adventures being the main type of product I'm referring to). Plus the fact that it generally takes several adventures to make a complete campaign.

Sebastian wrote:

Or, maybe the above backlog argument is flawed to begin with and you actually purchase rpg material because you enjoy reading it and that not every ounce of utility must be drained before you have made a satisfactory purchasing decision.

I think you are overstating the matter a bit here. Of course, not every ounce of utility has to be drained for a product to be useful, but a lot more utility *does* have to be received before switching is viable to me.

Also, i think it's relevant to point out that part of the issue is not so much that there's a new edition, it's that the new edition would seem to have significant enough changes that conversion is going to be difficult at best. If 4E was easily adapted to current products, then I would probably switch. But from what I'm hearing about the changes (and the fact that WotC has even said that converting would be too cumbersome) it seems that the 3.5 material will not be easily usable with 4e rules.

And, really, I love 3.5. My complaints with it (combat takes too long and too hard for a DM to prep homebrewed high level games) are far outweghed by the options available and the fun I've had with it. (And the prep time issue is fixed by products from companies like Paizo - thanks, guys!)


CourtFool wrote:
Erik Mona wrote:

Thanks for the feedback, all.

I didn't make this a poll because I want to know a lot more than just which of the options you're leaning toward. The WHY at this point is as important to me as the WHAT.

--Erik

[between the lines]...because we are trying to determine how soon to switch [/between the lines]

[insert maniacal laughter here]

I've got a feeling they've already figured out when they're making the switch, but they're gonna wait a little while to announce it. Telling people about it at this point would just rile too many folks up needlessly . People seem awful sensitive about 4E on both sides right now.

I could be wrong, of course.


CourtFool wrote:

Of course! I am the only one on the boards that matters.

So what you are really saying is that it is my fault WotC is rolling out 4e.

*wipes brow*

whew! I'm safe! that scroll of 'Nahal's Reckless Blamer' was totally worth it!!
*smug smirk knowing the blame was successfully passed and accepted*


Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Adventure Subscriber
DaveMage wrote:


Also, i think it's relevant to point out that part of the issue is not so much that there's a new edition, it's that the new edition would seem to have significant enough changes that conversion is going to be difficult at best. If 4E was easily adapted to current products, then I would probably switch. But from what I'm hearing about the changes (and the fact that WotC has even said that converting would be too cumbersome) it seems that the 3.5 material will not be easily usable with 4e rules.

I'm not planning on switching to 4e either, but DaveMage hit it right on...if 4e was easily adapted to current products I would also probably switch. As things stand now I'll buy up any good 3.5 adventures still comming out and play this edition for awhile, then maybe upgrade once 5e comes along.

================================

On another note, I did a quick tally of the votes in the poll and it looks like 2/3rd of the responders fall into the 'A) will switch' category or 'C) wait and see' category. I lumped the C's with the A's because I'm sure a lot of the reluctance to embrace 4e comes from fear of change. If someone says they're going to wait and see, it most likely means they will switch (as long as 4e has at least some good merits - which is likely). By the raw numbers the 'stick with 3.5' crowd outnumbered the 'upgrade to 4.0' crowd by 3 to 2, but I'm betting those fence sitting C's will be upgraders too.

Assuming that number is close to reality, there's no way Paizo will be sticking with 3.5. The amount of people playing old editions will only decrease with time, so the only smart decision is to upgrade along with the game. It's not a matter of IF, it's a matter of WHEN.


Adventure Path Charter Subscriber
DitheringFool wrote:

Question? Why buy the PHB when you can try-it-before-you-buy-it with the SRD?

I'm asking sincerely because it seems more prudent to thoroughly digest the SRD before spending any money on the real deal.

This might reveal my ignorance of the SRD, but isn't it only available online? If so, then (in spite of being less than thrilled about 4e) I'd buy the new PHB to check it out just so (1) I wouldn't have to spend more time looking at a computer screen and (2) so I could have something I can hold in my hands. Same reason I have stacks of Dungeon and Dragon magazines but have no plans to subscribe to the digital versions.

Regarding Tome of Battle, I wasn't a huge fan. I liked the *idea* of giving melee types more options and cool things they could do, but I felt the execution was kinda wonky. (In the interest of full disclosure, I should admit here that while I own the book and have read through it with great interest, I've never played one of those classes nor been in a game with one). It looked to me like it would be confusing to keep up with which abilities were available and which ones weren't and how one goes about "refreshing" abilities that had been used. If I played one and figured out how it worked I might feel differently. And I am of two minds about the Swordsage. On the one hand, I don't like the idea of a character who can teleport and create flame effects without the use of some type of bona fide magic...or even psionics. Seems kinda cheesy and videogamey. On the other hand, I think they'd be fun to play. *shrugs*

And Tome of Magic rocks. I think the Shadowcaster and Truenamer could both use serious shots in the arm, but the flavor of all three classes is top notch.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
swirler wrote:
CourtFool wrote:

Of course! I am the only one on the boards that matters.

So what you are really saying is that it is my fault WotC is rolling out 4e.

*wipes brow*

whew! I'm safe! that scroll of 'Nahal's Reckless Blamer' was totally worth it!!
*smug smirk knowing the blame was successfully passed and accepted*

When I get my hands on that damn Nahal....


Eric Tillemans wrote:
Assuming that number is close to reality, there's no way Paizo will be sticking with 3.5. The amount of people playing old editions will only decrease with time, so the only smart decision is to upgrade along with the game. It's not a matter of IF, it's a matter of WHEN.

I don't think any one expects Paizo to remain 3.5 only. That would be foolish. (Hoping abounds though, ;-) )

But at the same time, I trust the Paizo staffers when they say they will evaluate 4th Edition first.

I am far too cynical to think WoTC can't screw up 4th Edition. There is still a question of IF Paizo will switch. Granted, I don't think any one would be surprised if they did...

And of course, there is the even more unlikely chance of Paizo supporting both. Not "full-time" of course... But "in some fashion" might be possible.


French Wolf wrote:

I agree Paolo I shall read my copy of Tome of Battle and let you know what I really think.

Cheers

French Wolf,

I had a reply on an early thread about Tome of Battle and powergaming or min/maxing with with. But essentially it boiled down to this.

We used it in a campaign that went from level 1 to level 9 or so, take took ~7 months to play through. So we got to see the 1st through 5th level manuevers in play (the manuevers are on a "level" system like spells, so you get access to the 2nd level ones when you hit 3rd class level, etc. If they stopped using "level" for multiple things in 4th ed, I wouldn't be upset, lol)

Essentially it worked out that the crusaders and warblades (we didn't have anyone playing a swordsage) weren't any more gamebreaking than the:

Barbarian/Frenzied Berserker power attacking with a great axe.

Dual-wielding sneaking attacking rogue.

Trip/Disarm/Grapple specialist Monk.

Everyone shined in different battles, but our "heavy hitter" that dealt the most damage on a consistent basis was definitely the Barbarian/Frenzied Berserker. The Monk and the Rogue dealt less damage than the ToB characters, but they also brought different abilities to the table outside of pure combat.

There were a couple "broken" manuevers (a 4th level crusader one comes to mind) but there are broken feats and spells available to pretty much every class.

Essentially, I didn't feel that ToB was a broken book or upped the power curve too much, in a game that allowed all the other WotC sourcebooks such as the Complete Series, PHB II, etc. But I wouldn't run a campaign based solely off the SRD + Tome of Battle anymore than I would run one bases solely on the SRD and say Complete Arcane.


Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Adventure Subscriber
Disenchanter wrote:

I don't think any one expects Paizo to remain 3.5 only. That would be foolish. (Hoping abounds though, ;-) )

But at the same time, I trust the Paizo staffers when they say they will evaluate 4th Edition first.

I am far too cynical to think WoTC can't screw up 4th Edition. There is still a question of IF Paizo will switch. Granted, I don't think any one would be surprised if they did...

And of course, there is the even more unlikely chance of Paizo supporting both. Not "full-time" of course... But "in some fashion" might be possible.

Continued support for 3.5 from Paizo would be great for me personally - something I'm also hoping for but not expecting to happen. Maybe there's a way to support both editions in some fashion, but I'm not seeing an answer short of drastically increasing production costs (and thus our costs). Of course Paizo has pleasantly surprised me before with great innovations, so maybe they can do it again.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
DitheringFool wrote:
I am not a fan of the dumbing down of DnD to satisfy whiny players and lazy DMs. 3.5 is not perfect. Fix it, don't axe gnomes and vancian magic.

This is about the first time anyone on these boards has made me see red. You make it sound as if it's a simple thing to just fix what doesn't work for someone as if its as easy as suggesting they try. I myself spent countless hours, trying to FIX 3.5 when I could have been enjoying other hobbies or taking on additional PAYING contracts with all that free time. And for what?

Now there's a new version on the horizon that (incompetant PR aside) actually intends to address many of the problems I *was* trying to fix and suddenly I'm a LAZY DM for wanting to give it a shot?! Thanks for the kick in the nuts, can I have another? >:|

Sovereign Court

Sebastian wrote:
Okay...what does this have to do with 4e again?

I would think that it would mean that we're not looking for a new system because there's currently enough material to keep us busy. I thought it seemed pretty obvious.

Sebastian wrote:
At what point do you quit purchasing 3.5 material because of your backlog?

I don't get what you're asking . . . at what point do people stop buying . . . well I'm no market analyst but I assume that some people buy on a case per case basis, and others have brand loyalty. Regardless, people always pick and choose. Personally, I look over an item, if the product interests me I buy it, if the product doesn't interest me I don't. 3.5/4th/fish hooks, doesn’t really matter what I’m buying, the process is the same. Is there something I'm not seeing here?

Sebastian wrote:
Or, maybe the above backlog argument is flawed to begin with and you actually purchase rpg material because you enjoy reading it and that not every ounce of utility must be drained before you have made a satisfactory purchasing decision.

So . . . if I enjoy reading rpg material . . . I must buy rpg material . . . and therefor I'll buy 4th edition? Is that your argument? Seems a little condescending don't you think? Some of us are just frugal with our money. Personally I buy something I intend to use it. I bought SCAP and when dungeon and Dragon ended their run I transferred the remainder of my subscription over to pathfinder. Because I'm already getting the first 3 issues I decided to subscribe to ensure that I get the last 3 issues (plus I like getting stuff for free, and the subscription came with a free player's guide).

I think you may be over looking our argument, it's not that we're not going to buy 4th edition, it's that we're probably not going to be buying it in the near future.


Guy Humual wrote:


I would think that it would mean that we're not looking for a new system because there's currently enough material to keep us busy. I thought it seemed pretty obvious.

I don't think this is a valid argument since 4th edition isn't published only to satisfy customers who bought all the books of the previous edition.

Guy Humual wrote:


I think you may be over looking our argument, it's not that we're not going to buy 4th edition, it's that we're probably not going to be buying it in the near future.

If that's so, then I cannot understand all the grumbling about why to launch it now. Since all of us have enough adventures and supplements for 2-3 years of gaming then we could at least respect those that really like the change.


Sebastian wrote:


I'm sorry to have to break it to everyone, but there is a finite amount of time in this life. While I would dearly love to go back and play a truckload of video games that were released in the past couple years and which I have not had time to play, barring the end of adult responsibilities and a whole lot of summer vacation, it's not going to happen. Yeah, the release of the PS3 makes it even less likely that I will go back and play the good PS2 games I missed, but sadly the world refuses to accomodate my leisure schedule.

Thanks Dad, we didn't know that. I guess you were too busy condescending to spell correctly, eh?


Laithoron wrote:
Thanks for the kick in the nuts, can I have another? >:|

I understand you are angry, but I simply do not draw the same conclusion you do. I do not believe DitheringFool was suggesting that 'fixing' and 'dumbing down' are one and the same. It seems to me he is suggesting they fix 3.5 but believes they are not fixing, but dumbing down 3.5. I do not see that as an attack on anyone who has attempted to correct issues that cropped up in their campaigns.


Came to mind later when I read various responses...should I buy 4th edition books, they are most likely to be non-core ones, preferably the ones light on rules and big on ambience, fluff etc. After all, those can be converted to whatever system I happen to be using. So interesting books detailing campaign worlds or such are still welcome (similarly, I bought some 1st edition AD&D books out of interest even though I have never played 1st edition...)

Sovereign Court

Mormegil wrote:
I don't think this is a valid argument since 4th edition isn't published only to satisfy customers who bought all the books of the previous edition.

The original question was: "Given what you know so far, are you planning to . . ."

Seeing as I have 3.5 adventures I want to run, and 4 will not be compatible with 3.5, how is not buying 4 and "sticking with 3.5" an invalid argument?

Mormegil wrote:
If that's so, then I cannot understand all the grumbling about why to launch it now. Since all of us have enough adventures and supplements for 2-3 years of gaming then we could at least respect those that really like the change.

I can't understand the grumbling either. I'm upset that they cancelled dungeon and dragon magazines but I couldn't care less about 4th ed. I guess I might care in a few months if everyone stops producing 3.5 material (a likely scenario) but until then I don't see why everyone is getting bent out of shape over 4th edition.

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Companion, Pathfinder Accessories, Pawns, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Charter Superscriber
Laithoron wrote:
DitheringFool wrote:
I am not a fan of the dumbing down of DnD to satisfy whiny players and lazy DMs. 3.5 is not perfect. Fix it, don't axe gnomes and vancian magic.

This is about the first time anyone on these boards has made me see red.

<snip>Thanks for the kick in the nuts, can I have another? >:|

Fair enough. That was a bit harsh and I apologize.

I am a lazy DM. Between work, church, and family I barely have time to play 4-5 hours every other week. And the game is inherently hard to DM (I have a min/max whisper gnome ninja player - enough said). So I am not opposed to changing the mechanics of the game to address obvious problems (grapple is thrown around a lot). ...I just change them through 3rd party products (Grappling for Beginners) or house rules, but I can see the case for a revision.

I'm not sure I understand the merit of completely undoing the traditional magic system. I've heard the pros and cons and it mostly sounds like whiny players. If you don't have fun playing a wizard, then don't play a wizard. Why does the game have to change so drastically? The wizard in my group loves playing a wizard as is. Sucks to be him I guess...

I could go on and on but no one cares. The squeaky wheel gets the oil. 4e is coming. I do not wish to convince others they should not convert. I just hate to see the game I love die in the process. On the flip side I'll be starting a 3.5 Savage Tide campaign early next year. My players are already pumped and we'll have a blast!

Oh, and thanks CourtFool...

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