RPG Superstar 2013 Top 32
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One of the big advantages to using reach is that it allows you to take attacks of opportunity against any non-reach creatures that want to enter melee with you simply because, in order to get close enough, they will almost certainly have to move through your threatened squares. However, I was looking over the Spring Attack feat recently and noticed something:
SPRING ATTACK [GENERAL]
Prerequisites: Dex 13, Dodge, Mobility, base attack bonus +4.Benefit: When using the attack action with a melee weapon, you can move both before and after the attack, provided that your total distance moved is not greater than your speed. Moving in this way does not provoke an attack of opportunity from the defender you attack, though it might provoke attacks of opportunity from other creatures, if appropriate. You can’t use this feat if you are wearing heavy armor.
You must move at least 5 feet both before and after you make your attack in order to utilize the benefits of Spring Attack.
Special: A fighter may select Spring Attack as one of his fighter bonus feats.
(Emphasis mine.)
It seems pretty cut and dry. Even if your opponent has reach, with this feat you can dart inside his reach, make a melee attack, and then hop back out again without drawing a single AoO from the target (as long as you have the movement to do so, obviously). Does this seem right? Can Spring Attack defeat the almighty reach?
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RPG Superstar 2013 Top 32
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YES
I can see it two ways, really. It says moving in this way does not provoke. By 'this way' does it mean the movement after the attack or is it inclusive of all movement made as part of the attack? I could see how a DM could draw the conclusion that you would still provoke an AoO for moving through the first threatened square on your way in to make the attack (since anyone, regardless of feats, can do that) but you are immune to AoOs on your way back out since that movement is what is being permitted by the feat.
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YESI can see it two ways, really. It says moving in this way does not provoke. By 'this way' does it mean the movement after the attack or is it inclusive of all movement made as part of the attack? I could see how a DM could draw the conclusion that you would still provoke an AoO for moving through the first threatened square on your way in to make the attack (since anyone, regardless of feats, can do that) but you are immune to AoOs on your way back out since that movement is what is being permitted by the feat.
I've always seen it as the defender cannot make any aoo based on the attackers movement. Look at the feat tree to get there, Dodge (AC bonus against a certain target), Mobility (increased AC while moving through threatened squares). Spring attack seems to build on that by allowing you to approach then withdraw from a specific target while not giving them an opening to attack you, at least based on your movement.
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RPG Superstar 2013 Top 32
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I've always seen it as the defender cannot make any aoo based on the attackers movement. Look at the feat tree to get there, Dodge (AC bonus against a certain target), Mobility (increased AC while moving through threatened squares). Spring attack seems to build on that by allowing you to approach then withdraw from a specific target while not giving them an opening to attack you, at least based on your movement.
Yeah, that was my thought too. I'm envisioning a barbarian with 40 speed employing this against a creature with 15' reach, rushing through 3 threatened squares, spearing the giant, and then scurrying back out of reach 20' away without drawing a single AoO. The feat is suitably dramatic and impressive in this fashion.
YES
I agree. And for three feats (Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack), this isn't unreasonable, IMO.
Some things to keep in mind:
*You have to move both before and after the attack, so no charging for example.
*You only get immunity from movement AoO from the target, any other foes whose areas you move through still get an AoO on you.
*You have to attack with a melee weapon, no spells or ranged weapons.
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RPG Superstar 2013 Top 32
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I had a feeling that was what this was about. :-)
Your keenness is unparalleled.
It gets worse when I get my 5th Tempest level, too. Then I get to make an attack with both my main and off-hand when using Spring Attack. I'm also eyeing the 'Bounding Assault' and 'Rapid Blitz' feats from the PHB2... but those are quite a bit off.Anyway, thanks to everyone for the feedback. I thought that's how it should work, but I wanted to make sure that was the general opinion and not just me being biased towards my own character. ;)
Anyway, thanks to everyone for the feedback. I thought that's how it should work, but I wanted to make sure that was the general opinion and not just me being biased towards my own character. ;)
I seem to remember that this was in a sage advice somewhere (might be just faulty memory). The arguement for it was how cool it was for the player, and the arguement against was mostly sour-grapes from the DM's perspective. I also remember something along the lines of it only dis-allowing AoO from the recipient of your attack - not his buddies that may also threaten you during either of your movement actions.
Thus, if you had two ogres fighting side by side, you would provoke attacks from one of them but not the one you were attacking. Lines of hobgoblin longspearman work the same way.
Don't get me wrong - I'm all for cool tactical moves from the PC's, but no cool feat will work in every situation.
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RPG Superstar 2013 Top 32
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Thus, if you had two ogres fighting side by side, you would provoke attacks from one of them but not the one you were attacking. Lines of hobgoblin longspearman work the same way.
Don't get me wrong - I'm all for cool tactical moves from the PC's, but no cool feat will work in every situation.
Yeah, I understood that part from the feat's description. It only negates AoOs from the target of your attack. Still, when charging into an area threatened by multiple foes, this feat would allow you to take one less AoO, which is always a good thing, and you've still got Mobility working for you against the other ones.
Yeah, I understood that part from the feat's description. It only negates AoOs from the target of your attack. Still, when charging into an area threatened by multiple foes, this feat would allow you to take one less AoO, which is always a good thing, and you've still got Mobility working for you against the other ones.
Exactly. I've mostly seen it used by the "can only take two hits" rogue to skewer opponents by flanking with the tank. Its utility is somewhat in question once you get multiple attacks, but the ability to spring in, move 5' out, and then take a 5' shift next round and full attack is occasionally useful for more robust classes.
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RPG Superstar 2013 Top 32
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Now, another question, can you use this feat in conjunction with a charge as long as you don't move more than your speed in the round? Say, for example, a character with 30 speed charges in 10', makes an attack (with the appropriate bonus for charging), and then darts 20' back out? Is that legal?
I'll take a wild shot at that, using nothing but my own opinion: no. The charge requires you to funnel that energy into the attack, which breaks your momentum. But that's just my slant on it. Even if charging isn't allowed, this is something I hadn't realized about the feat which makes it much more attractive.
Now, another question, can you use this feat in conjunction with a charge as long as you don't move more than your speed in the round? Say, for example, a character with 30 speed charges in 10', makes an attack (with the appropriate bonus for charging), and then darts 20' back out? Is that legal?
I would have to say "no" with the general charge attack action, since it does not permit further movement after conclusion of a charge, irregardless of the Spring Attack.
Basically, your Spring Attack is meant to trade off that potential charge bonus for not handing your larger, meaner, hostile foe(s) any cheap shots at you on your way in. Obviously, the other advantage of Spring Attack is that it does not care about terrain difficulties (unlike charge) nor does it compromise your AC. I'd probably more want the Spring Attack feat's ability to potentially deny the victim any chance to prosecute payback with a full attack action of there own, whereas that is the great drawback (barring multiple natural weapons and the Pounce attack option or something similar) of making a Charge.
The other nice thing, you can boingy in, stabbity, boingy out and the blaster in the party won't have to worry about accidentally obliterating you as much.
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 6
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Now, another question, can you use this feat in conjunction with a charge as long as you don't move more than your speed in the round? Say, for example, a character with 30 speed charges in 10', makes an attack (with the appropriate bonus for charging), and then darts 20' back out? Is that legal?
No. Your charge movement ends with your attack. You wind up failing the movement after clause.
Get leap attack and make a scout/fighter and it can be really nasty. That said its great weakness is that even if your bouncing in and out of combat your companions probably can't do that. This essentially funnels more damage their way and can actually make the party, as a whole, more brittle - your not soaking up your fair share of damage essentially.
Get leap attack and make a scout/fighter and it can be really nasty. That said its great weakness is that even if your bouncing in and out of combat your companions probably can't do that. This essentially funnels more damage their way and can actually make the party, as a whole, more brittle - your not soaking up your fair share of damage essentially.
I would say that depends at least in part on whether or not the players cooperatively form thier tactics and techniques as the campaign progresses. If the speedbump(s) basically boingy to and fro, effectively maintaining a 'fluid meat wall' (in front of the squisher characters), then the same result will be achieved tactically.
With a larger party, the boingy character should pal up with the sneak attacker, although if the boingy character leaves the rogue swinging in the breeze, said rogue will indeed prove your brittle point...
And yeah, leap attack scout/fighter is pretty sick, and not an easy PC to deal with until the later levels when Repulsion comes into play.
Yes, sadly Spring Attack has beaten me every time.
Yes, sadly Spring Attack has beaten me every time.
LOL!
Get leap attack and make a scout/fighter and it can be really nasty. That said its great weakness is that even if your bouncing in and out of combat your companions probably can't do that. This essentially funnels more damage their way and can actually make the party, as a whole, more brittle - your not soaking up your fair share of damage essentially.
I was playing in a gestalt campaign, and one of the other players was playing a scout/fighter of some sort, with levels from the PrC kensai, and he had leap attack...
Long story short, we learned that a charge is a full-round action, and that spring attack only lets you take an attack in the middle of a move action. It doesn't seem like that much more damage, until you consider that the bonus to hit from a charge just adds fuel to the power attack/leap attack fire.
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 6
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Get leap attack and make a scout/fighter and it can be really nasty. That said its great weakness is that even if your bouncing in and out of combat your companions probably can't do that. This essentially funnels more damage their way and can actually make the party, as a whole, more brittle - your not soaking up your fair share of damage essentially.
Leap Attack is charge only. Might as well skip Spring Attack if you're going Leap Attack, and rely on tumble to get you out after the charges.
Personally, Leap Attack is on my "banned feats" list anyhow.
How about Charge-and-Withdraw Cycles?
How about Charge-and-Withdraw Cycles?
Sure, but spring attack doesn't help with that. For spring attack you have to move at least 5', attack, and then move at least 5'. That is why charge doesn't work with spring attack, because you can't move after you charge. Withdraw also doesn't work with spring attack because you can't attack while withdrawing.
What you could do is charge in (drawing any AoO). On the next round sidestep 5', attack, and then use the rest of your movement to "withdraw" (move away from your target). Spring attack would help to get away (it is also nice way to get into flanking).
Get leap attack and make a scout/fighter and it can be really nasty. That said its great weakness is that even if your bouncing in and out of combat your companions probably can't do that. This essentially funnels more damage their way and can actually make the party, as a whole, more brittle - your not soaking up your fair share of damage essentially.
Spring Attack is usually better for a scout than Leap Attack. Now a scout/dervish/tempest... that's nasty.
If you have a scout/fighter type, the cleric will need to take on the role of the blocker/shield-wall and the arcane caster should have more battlefield control spells to compensate. That said, they can be very effective.
Personally, Leap Attack is on my "banned feats" list anyhow.
100%-ly agreed.
Now, another question, can you use this feat in conjunction with a charge...?
No, because they're both distinct standard actions and you can't take two standard actions at the same time. There was a Sage Advice on a similar question on Spring Attack, if that's worth anything to you. Could be in the FAQ, but I can't get there at work so I can't say for certain.
Get leap attack and make a scout/fighter and it can be really nasty. That said its great weakness is that even if your bouncing in and out of combat your companions probably can't do that. This essentially funnels more damage their way and can actually make the party, as a whole, more brittle - your not soaking up your fair share of damage essentially.Leap Attack is charge only. Might as well skip Spring Attack if you're going Leap Attack, and rely on tumble to get you out after the charges.
Personally, Leap Attack is on my "banned feats" list anyhow.
Spring attack is for the move-hit-pullback on round two. This sets you up for another charging leap attack on round three. In fact much of the point of picking up scout levels is to make your round two attack at least notable (the other half of the reason your picking up scout levels is all the mobility enhancing abilities), though, of course, the obscene damage takes place on every odd round when the leaping charge kicks in.
Get leap attack and make a scout/fighter and it can be really nasty. That said its great weakness is that even if your bouncing in and out of combat your companions probably can't do that. This essentially funnels more damage their way and can actually make the party, as a whole, more brittle - your not soaking up your fair share of damage essentially.I would say that depends at least in part on whether or not the players cooperatively form thier tactics and techniques as the campaign progresses. If the speedbump(s) basically boingy to and fro, effectively maintaining a 'fluid meat wall' (in front of the squisher characters), then the same result will be achieved tactically.
With a larger party, the boingy character should pal up with the sneak attacker, although if the boingy character leaves the rogue swinging in the breeze, said rogue will indeed prove your brittle point...
And yeah, leap attack scout/fighter is pretty sick, and not an easy PC to deal with until the later levels when Repulsion comes into play.
I think you kind of show my point when you mention that Tyger has a bad habit of leaving the rogue standing there in the middle of a pack of enemies with everything just kind of hanging in the breeze. I'm not saying that a bouncy build must screw up the rest of the party - after all one can just stand there and take the ogres full attack.
But the build does often make life somewhat more difficult for the rest of the party. Such a build tends to rely on mobility to keep it going - its not supposed to stand in front of a Ogre Barbarian and suck down a full attack, at least not for multiple rounds. Since players tend to move through out the inititive order there is more danger that Tyger bounced off and only realized that the mage had become uncovered when the raging Ogre Barbarians turn came up and the DM started cackling.
The build adds some versatility to what the party can do - same with the monk but the monsters will almost certainly attack something on their turns - if its not Tyger then its going to be another party member.
In any case the larger the party the more utility this build has - again the monks similar. Makes a good extra wheel but is no replacement for the fighter.
Now, another question, can you use this feat in conjunction with a charge...?No, because they're both distinct standard actions and you can't take two standard actions at the same time. There was a Sage Advice on a similar question on Spring Attack, if that's worth anything to you. Could be in the FAQ, but I can't get there at work so I can't say for certain.
A charge is actually a full-round action, and spring attack allows the execution of an attack action (which is a standard action) in the middle of movement (which is, obviously, a move action). So, it's a little more nuanced (or not, depending on how mechanical your mind is), but the conclusion remains: no charging spring attacks.