Virtual Online Randomized Minis


4th Edition


I was seriously trying to keep an open mind about this. I admit I was looking at 4th edition and saying, "if it wows me, maybe I'll get it." But goodness the last week or so have really made me doubt that "wowing" will happen.

The latest thing that I found out is that on the virtual tabletop that the minis that you get to use will be sold in randomized virtual boosters.

Silly me, I thought that if I paid the money to "unlock" the Monster Manual online that the images of the monsters might be part of the fee. Guess not. Not only that, I can't just pay a few cents here or there and buy the ones I want for the game I'm playing, but I have to pay money for a virtual booster that still might not give me what I need for my online game.

Seriously, does this sound like a good idea to anyone else? I know I seem to be out of synch with some of these decisions, so maybe lots of people have no problem with this. I don't know . . . it really ruins the idea of the virtual tabletop for me.


Where did you see this at? No offense, but I'd like to read it for myself before I form an opinion.


I'd also like to see a source for this. I've spent a small fortune on minis, and I have no intention of spending another small fortune on "digital" versions of them.

- Ashavan


That would be great, I have too much money to spend anyway! Finally a way to spend it and get nothing for it to clog up my limited space. /sarcasm
But yeah, I know people playing MtGO and they also pay for virtual cards..at least they can get these cards in print if they cancel their account or something like that. Why not make random splat books or rule cards: see here ..but maybe we are lucky and it is just a rumor, or hopefully it is only for D&D Miniature Online and not for the tabletop D&D RPG, would make some sense.


The information comes from Dedier Monin's blog, and from a post by Scott Rouse at EN World. All of it is summarized, quoted, and linked in this thread at EN World.

D&D Insider Bits (EN World)


For anyone that doesn't want to dig into the thread, the relevant quotes and where they are from:

[b wrote:

Deider Monin (Blog at WOTC)[/b]]

We are still looking and defining the exact details of how digital miniatures will be available for the game table, and we will provide the relevant information in due time through the dndinsider.com articles.

Getting miniatures for the online game table from randomized boosters is certainly envisioned, even if that may not be the only way to get them.

And the following from a post at EN World:

Scott Rouse wrote:


You'll get a basic set of monsters and NPCs as part of you subscription to Insider. You'll be able to make PC based minis with the character creator (and I suppose NPCs within the core races/classes). New sets of monsters will be released that you'll be able to add to your game over time.

There will also be tokens you can use on the game table to represent monsters/NPCs.

More info to follow at a later date.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Maps, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Charter Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
KnightErrantJR wrote:

For anyone that doesn't want to dig into the thread, the relevant quotes and where they are from:

[b wrote:

Deider Monin (Blog at WOTC)[/b]]

We are still looking and defining the exact details of how digital miniatures will be available for the game table, and we will provide the relevant information in due time through the dndinsider.com articles.

Getting miniatures for the online game table from randomized boosters is certainly envisioned, even if that may not be the only way to get them.

And the following from a post at EN World:

Scott Rouse wrote:


You'll get a basic set of monsters and NPCs as part of you subscription to Insider. You'll be able to make PC based minis with the character creator (and I suppose NPCs within the core races/classes). New sets of monsters will be released that you'll be able to add to your game over time.

There will also be tokens you can use on the game table to represent monsters/NPCs.

More info to follow at a later date.

It's as if someone is consciously making the decision to get me to walk away from the current D&D game for the first time in twenty years. Thank you, WotC! :)

Scarab Sages

That is just seriously F%!@ed Up!


There is no way they would sell on online product in a random collectable form.

Something is being misinterpreted methinks.

(If not, and this is actually true, I don't think I'll ever be able to stop laughing at the sheer stupidity of it.)

Dark Archive

Adventure Path Charter Subscriber
IconoclasticScream wrote:

[

It's as if someone is consciously making the decision to get me to walk away from the current D&D game for the first time in twenty years. Thank you, WotC! :)

Just when you think the 4e PR hole couldn't get any deeper, they bring in a dumber hulk.

Yes - I am actually beginning to think this is personal. Between the Dragon/Dungeon license, the Greyhawk shelving, the way in which Living Greyhawk was cancelled, the demise of the Erinyes, the deflating of the Great Wheel, the '3.5 sucks/4e rules' machismo of the developers, and now this virtual minatures fiasco, I've come to the conclusion there's a picture of me in their brand plan with notes to the 4e/DI team to 'drive him from the game'.

Scarab Sages

DaveMage wrote:

There is no way they would sell on online product in a random collectable form.

Something is being misinterpreted methinks.

(If not, and this is actually true, I don't think I'll ever be able to stop laughing at the sheer stupidity of it.)

Have you played the online Magic card game? That's what they do, just like buying cards in real life but you don't get to keep them in a box under the bed.


This is the penultimate in dumb, the ultimate is coming next.

Well, maybe I'm just gonna stick with 3.5, maybe get a few extra copies so I can play it until I die. Yup.

I guess it's all our fault because we are their market and 'they listen to us' so we must have told them to do all this shit.

Right?


fray wrote:
DaveMage wrote:

There is no way they would sell on online product in a random collectable form.

Something is being misinterpreted methinks.

(If not, and this is actually true, I don't think I'll ever be able to stop laughing at the sheer stupidity of it.)

Have you played the online Magic card game? That's what they do, just like buying cards in real life but you don't get to keep them in a box under the bed.

I'm truly speechless...


This is gonna be the latest thing, man! I can hardly wait to spend my money on something I don't actually get.

An even more tantalizing thought, do these guys think that if they treat us like this they aren't going to get hacked?

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Maps, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Charter Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

I think it's time with a dejected sigh I accept that to be completely accurate I need to refer to 4.0 as D&D In Name Only.

DDINO for short.

I'm already tired of pretending this is going to be the same game I've been playing since high school. It's not quite as pathetic as passing off any band with Gary Cherone in it as Van Halen, but this fiasco is certainly starting to have the same stink to it.


The easier answer (ok, for me) was to rediscover the HERO system. I used to play it for super heroes eons ago, and now with it quite matured, the Fantasy Hero is pretty awesome (just picked it up about 5 weeks ago).


DaveMage wrote:

There is no way they would sell on online product in a random collectable form.

Something is being misinterpreted methinks.

(If not, and this is actually true, I don't think I'll ever be able to stop laughing at the sheer stupidity of it.)

I must apologize I'm partly responsible for WotC thinking this is a reasonable avanue to pursue. About 3 years ago my Parents purchased MtG Online for me for Christmas. They didn't realize that you have to buy virtual packs to play the game.

One year later after a mad attempt to collect 4 complete sets of Ravnica (When you get a complete set you can trade it for a real set of cards) I was over $2000 in the whole sunk into Magic Online.

You see you can purchase tickets and use those tickets to buy other peoples dupes. I thought I could get 4 sets really cheap. By the time I realized my experiement was doomed I was too far down the rabit hole to stop.

I no longer play Magic Online even though I have over $100.00 worth of tickets still available on my account. It is an path I must no longer travel lest the collection gods tempt me once more.

CURSE YOU GODS OF COLLECTAMANIA!!!

Liam


canadaboy wrote:


The easier answer (ok, for me) was to rediscover the HERO system. I used to play it for super heroes eons ago, and now with it quite matured, the Fantasy Hero is pretty awesome (just picked it up about 5 weeks ago).

Word, man.

Liam Whalen wrote:


I was over $2000 in the whole sunk into Magic Online.

You mean they already did this with Magic?

OMG!

The horror, the horror!


If they want to launch a separate thingie for D&D minis that works like Magic Online, sure, knock yourself out. But I just wanted to use the stupid desktop for playing D&D, you know, the RPG. If you let people have "free" minis on the RPG desktop, I'm sure there is some way to limit what minis they can have on a "virtual" battlemap for the minis game.


Liam Whalen wrote:
DaveMage wrote:

There is no way they would sell on online product in a random collectable form.

Something is being misinterpreted methinks.

(If not, and this is actually true, I don't think I'll ever be able to stop laughing at the sheer stupidity of it.)

I must apologize I'm partly responsible for WotC thinking this is a reasonable avanue to pursue. About 3 years ago my Parents purchased MtG Online for me for Christmas. They didn't realize that you have to buy virtual packs to play the game.

One year later after a mad attempt to collect 4 complete sets of Ravnica (When you get a complete set you can trade it for a real set of cards) I was over $2000 in the whole sunk into Magic Online.

You see you can purchase tickets and use those tickets to buy other peoples dupes. I thought I could get 4 sets really cheap. By the time I realized my experiement was doomed I was too far down the rabit hole to stop.

I no longer play Magic Online even though I have over $100.00 worth of tickets still available on my account. It is an path I must no longer travel lest the collection gods tempt me once more.

CURSE YOU GODS OF COLLECTAMANIA!!!

Liam

I'm still speechless....


KnightErrantJR wrote:


The latest thing that I found out is that on the virtual tabletop that the minis that you get to use will be sold in randomized virtual boosters.

Silly me, I thought that if I paid the money to "unlock" the Monster Manual online that the images of the monsters might be part of the fee. Guess not. Not only that, I can't just pay a few cents here or there and buy the ones I want for the game I'm playing, but I have to pay money for a virtual booster that still might not give me what I need for my online game.

I honestly don't see what the huge uproar over this is, which is why I asked for the source of this info. This is what I gathered from the posts.

Didier Monin wrote:


We are still looking and defining the exact details of how digital miniatures will be available for the game table, and we will provide the relevant information in due time through the dndinsider.com articles.

Getting miniatures for the online game table from randomized boosters is certainly envisioned, even if that may not be the only way to get them.

First, the "minis boosters" appear to be just one way they are looking at providing minis, and it's not totally set in stone. Scott Rouse's quote also mentioned that you get some minis with your subscription, and that you will be able to use tokens to represent monsters/NPCs (presumably if you don't have the minis for them).

I'm not sure why this is so bad. When I buy a hardcover Monster Manual, I don't expect to get all the plastic minis from it for free right along with it. Why would we expect them to do that in the virtual world? The virtual game table should provide ways to represent your monsters/NPCs via tokens. Just as in the real world, if I want actual minis, I would expect that to be extra.

True, they aren't physical objects, there is no physical process of making molds and pouring plastic and painting to pay for, but it is still a product that they must put time into, and WotC is still in the business of trying to sell products.

Also, I tend to agree that only offering a randomized pack (whether it is physical or virtual) isn't ideal for the way in which many people use minis. But there is also an element of "collecting" to these things. If you could just buy whatever you want, it wouldn't be as special to have the cool ones. Is the randomized booster pack the way I would like minis to be sold? No, but I'm also not in it for collecting. The fact is that is how it is done in the real world, so if that is your problem, you should direct your concern toward the minis product as a whole, not at 4e or D&D Insider.

Again, this isn't even completely decided yet. I think it's a bit comical that there are posts in this thread where people are throwing out all of 4e over this one small, undecided issue. It really seems like there is a huge "The sky is falling" attitude around here.


WTF? They want us to pay good money to download little pictures to use as miniatures in online 4th Edition games? I can get little pictures of miniatures now for free. I guess they would want us to "collect" these little thumbnails too? Clutter our computers with worthless photos?


Paolo wrote:

I'm not sure why this is so bad. When I buy a hardcover Monster Manual, I don't expect to get all the plastic minis from it for free right along with it. Why would we expect them to do that in the virtual world? The virtual game table should provide ways to represent your monsters/NPCs via tokens. Just as in the real world, if I want actual minis, I would expect that to be extra.

True, they aren't physical objects, there is no physical process of making molds and pouring plastic and painting to pay for, but it is still a product that they must put time into, and WotC is still in the business of trying...

I don't want to collect virtual images of monsters. If I shell out money for a monthly fee for this thing, I want the tools to run a game. I am not interested in collecting non existing miniatures. There is nothing "cool" about getting something rare when I, as the DM, should be able to tell the PCs that they run into X or Y, or whatever the hell I come up with.

Sure, I can use their generic tokens, and sure it does take time and salaries of software programmers to create these minis, but why am I paying a monthly fee for the site, then another fee to unlock the book contents, and my players paying fees to log into the game, if I have to turn around and pay more money for monster pictures? And, I can't buy the ones that I want even?

Other avenues could be that "hey, we'll give you a free Elminster and Drizzt if you get the FRCS 4e." It doesn't get me a frost giant or a beholder or what have you. It could also be that if you play in "virtual" RPGA events you can "earn" them. Again, not even slightly interested.

Liberty's Edge

Ugh. why do I even look at these threads in the 4e. section? It's always some dude telling everybody to quit overreacting, whether they are or not, and yet another reason for me to think the sky is falling.

I can't do this anymore. I think beating my head with a pineapple would be more productive, and infinitely more entertaining.


KnightErrantJR wrote:


I am not interested in collecting non existing miniatures.

Me neither.

I must say as one of the proponents of 4.0 (despite WotC's horrible marketing campaign thus far), collecting virtual images like collectible cards...it sounds so dumb and so obviously a gimmick to make money.

I realize that WotC is trying to increase the profits-per-gamer, but they need to do it by providing something of actual value.

I was mostly into the idea of a new rules set and then perhaps checking out what the online stuff is all about. But this pretty much nipped in the bud the online thing for me. I'm really hoping that they don't do anything to really destroy the rules (pay-per-feats, perhaps?). So far the stuff we know about the rules that I haven't liked seem to be more flavor than anything that I can switch out if I desire (I mean, warforged as a core D&D race but not gnomes?). But collectible virtual minis...I don't know where to begin at how unappealing that sounds to me.

Liberty's Edge

Gotta catchem! Gottacatchem all!


Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Arctaris wrote:
WTF? They want us to pay good money to download little pictures to use as miniatures in online 4th Edition games? I can get little pictures of miniatures now for free. I guess they would want us to "collect" these little thumbnails too? Clutter our computers with worthless photos?

Oh, I doubt they'd let you store them on your own computer. If you did that you might find some way to get your money's worth. No, they'll probably be stored somewhere safe and secure on the Master Control Program...I mean WOTC's server.


Kelvar Silvermace wrote:
No, they'll probably be stored somewhere safe and secure on the Master Control Program

Your game session is now over. End of line.


Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
KnightErrantJR wrote:
Kelvar Silvermace wrote:
No, they'll probably be stored somewhere safe and secure on the Master Control Program
Your game session is now over. End of line.

Lol. I'm glad someone got the reference. Kudos! :-)


If this is true it will really piss me off. Mostly because I own a ridiculously large number of minis - I shouldn't have to purchase minis again for a digital table when I already own them. Gah!

I'm simply not willing to shell out big bucks for randomized boosters of digital images.

Everytime I get to the point where I think 4e might not be as horrible as I'm expecting they let slip something stupid like this that makes me want to just start playing True20 and pretend 4e doesn't exist.

- Ashavan

Paizo Employee Director of Game Development

Heathansson wrote:

Ugh. why do I even look at these threads in the 4e. section? It's always some dude telling everybody to quit overreacting, whether they are or not, and yet another reason for me to think the sky is falling.

I can't do this anymore. I think beating my head with a pineapple would be more productive, and infinitely more entertaining.

Dude, you're telling me! This is the first one I've clicked on since my little moratorium in the rant thread. I know this was probably the worst one to click on, but like poking a sore tooth with your tongue I freakin' had to and instantly wished I hadn't.

Dark Archive Bella Sara Charter Superscriber

Heathansson wrote:

Ugh. why do I even look at these threads in the 4e. section? It's always some dude telling everybody to quit overreacting, whether they are or not, and yet another reason for me to think the sky is falling.

I can't do this anymore. I think beating my head with a pineapple would be more productive, and infinitely more entertaining.

Quit over reacting.

Wait. Scratch that.

Continue over reacting. Then give me some of that pineapple for my pina colada. Hmm...

(Heathy, this shit sucks. Sometimes, it's like defending O.J. Simpson, except instead of the bloody glove not fitting, he brought in the matching glove and says "oh wow! There's my missing glove!")

Dark Archive

Adventure Path Charter Subscriber
Paolo wrote:
KnightErrantJR wrote:

I'm not sure why this is so bad. When I buy a hardcover Monster Manual, I don't expect to get all the plastic minis from it for free right along with it. Why would we expect them to do that in the virtual world? The virtual game table should provide ways to represent your monsters/NPCs via tokens. Just as in the real world, if I want actual minis, I would expect that to be extra.

At the bare minimum, if you own a monster manual, you should be able to automatically unlock the minis it provides for free. A more reasonable option would be to have free access to all MM1 monsters (and you can unlock minis for other books you own).

If I am paying a monthly fee for DDI, I find it unreasonable to have to pay for virtual minis in addition (especially when I have spent hundreds, even thousands on WotC minis for my real world table top games).

I was resistant to 4e when I first heard the news. Bad news laid upon bad news since has made thinking the new game is no longer Dungeons and Dragons as I know it, but a different game which the D&D brand has co-opted to sell.

Despite that, I was still interested in DDI - not for the content, but to run 3.5 games for my old highschool gaming buddies that now live in different cities. This whole 'pay for virtual minis' though would be the last straw for me. The value isn't there for me if I'm using tokens.


Why do *I* always look at these threads in the 4e section? It's always some people overreacting over speculation that someone came up with based on a post that only mentions the possibility of one way of doing something for a game and an online system that hasn't even come out yet.

I really do understand that there is a huge emotional factor to most people's reactions, and I know that people want to vent. But let's be a little reasonable about this. You don't HAVE to buy minis to use in the virtual table top, just like you don't HAVE to buy them to use on your real table top. Furthermore, we don't even know yet what exactly you would have to pay extra for and what comes with a subscription or with the activation of your physical books. All we have is speculation.

I, for one, am still going to wait until WotC has all their cards out on the table regarding 4e before I decide whether or not it's for me.


Paolo wrote:

Why do *I* always look at these threads in the 4e section? It's always some people overreacting over speculation that someone came up with based on a post that only mentions the possibility of one way of doing something for a game and an online system that hasn't even come out yet.

I really do understand that there is a huge emotional factor to most people's reactions, and I know that people want to vent. But let's be a little reasonable about this. You don't HAVE to buy minis to use in the virtual table top, just like you don't HAVE to buy them to use on your real table top. Furthermore, we don't even know yet what exactly you would have to pay extra for and what comes with a subscription or with the activation of your physical books. All we have is speculation.

I, for one, am still going to wait until WotC has all their cards out on the table regarding 4e before I decide whether or not it's for me.

Let's look at it this way. You are saying "its not final, so lets trust WOTC and wait for the final product." The problem is, they do mention that the virtual boosters are a potential option for determining what minis you can use.

Now, if they see threads like this one, see that many of the people that might have signed up for the tabletop don't like this, and then say that they won't be doing random minis, that would be great. It would show that they listen to their fanbase. Its completely legitimate for people to have problems with this information, and if they don't want it commented on, they shouldn't post it.

On the other hand, if we sit back and trust WOTC to do what will make us all happy because they have this all down, and the game comes out and we are bombarded with tons of things that we don't like that could have been tweaked in this phase, what sense does that make.

Most of the people in this thread have said that if they go this route, they won't consider the tabletop. That's a lot different than saying WOTC is evil and they will never ever buy 4th edition. Automatically trusting everything and never voicing doubts is a bad as complaining about everything and escalating it beyond proportion.


******WAIT JUST AN F****ING MINUTE**********************
(*looks at the youtube videos again*)

there it is, the eraser and clothes pin "minatures" that are viewed as "confusing and problem causing"... a minotaur and a troll, oh no.

their solution that is SOOOOO much better?
Now, you can pay for a random pack of digital images which will likely be lost if you quit your account or clean your drives... but you can also use stand in "tokens" for digi-minis that you don't have yet?

All I can say is "WHY THE FRENCH!"

a prayer for serenity, no actually, a prayer for sanity:
god please have mercy. protect my game from stupidity. burn down all of renton washington... especially you know where, before it's too late.


KnightErrantJR wrote:


Let's look at it this way. You are saying "its not final, so lets trust WOTC and wait for the final product." The problem is, they do mention that the virtual boosters are a potential option for determining what minis you can use.

Now, if they see threads like this one, see that many of the people that might have signed up for the tabletop don't like this, and then say that they won't be doing random minis, that would be great. It would show that they listen to their fanbase. Its completely legitimate for people to have problems with this information, and if they don't want it commented on, they shouldn't post it.

On the other hand, if we sit back and trust WOTC to do what will make us all happy because they have this all down, and the game comes out and we are bombarded with tons of things that we don't like that could have been tweaked in this phase, what sense does that make.

Most of the people in this thread have said that if they go this route, they won't consider the tabletop. That's a lot different than saying WOTC is evil and they will never...

I completely agree that it is important to voice your opinion about the aspects of 4e that you don't like. The problem is that I don't see people really responding in such a mature, level-headed way. They react to things they hear without actually taking the time to look at all the facts.

Your original post says (and I don't mean to blame you for everyone's reactions, as I think it is more a "landslide" effect that happens with emotionally-charged information),

KnightErrantJR wrote:


The latest thing that I found out is that on the virtual tabletop that the minis that you get to use will be sold in randomized virtual boosters.

This neglects two important caveats. One, the randomized boosters aren't the ONLY way you can get the minis. Two, you can still play without purchasing any minis.

I respect your opinion, KnightErrant (I've read your posts for quite a long time now), and I don't want to say "Let's just trust WotC and wait." I agree that charging us for randomized minis (of which we may use half) is stupid. And if WotC is reading this, let my voice stand with those who say the same. But I don't really see people responding to that. They hear only half the story and they say things like, "That's the last straw on 4e for me! I'm out!" instead of "Well, if WotC does X, I won't like it. Therefore I think they should do Y."

I'm not just saying this because I'm a 4e fanboy (I've liked what I've seen, but I know I haven't seen much yet -- so I wouldn't call myself a fanboy, just to clarify). I know that when I talk to my friends about the possibility of converting, I will get things like "Well, you know they are getting rid of the Great Wheel. And did you know we will each need to buy a $3000 laptop in order to play? I heard they are just trying to make D&D into WoW." I'm just trying to combat misinformation before it spreads so far it becomes fact.

I appreciate you expressing your opinion about the concerns you have over 4e. I hope it will help make the game into something we all can like. But it bothers me when other people just spout out speculation as if it were fact, which can ruin other people's opinions before they get a chance to check it out themselves.

I just realized that my current avatar doesn't convey the attitude with which I read/post on these forums. I only picked it for the spiky hair and earrings, I swear! I really don't want to be hostile or to discourage healthy discussion about 4e. I just want people to look at the whole picture and discuss rather than react.


I understand what you are saying, but as Rich Baker said, the fact that people are emotional about these things does show the degree to which they have to work hard in order to get this right. That having been said, I do appreciate you well written response, although I'm not quite as inclined to hold back on the speculation, since its all they are giving us at this point. I do agree that we do need to be careful not to jump "two steps" ahead of what they have said rather than just speculating on the immediate ramifications.


I have decided that virtual randomized minis are too silly a concept to even think about.

...cuz I think that if this actually happens, my brain will explode.

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