Spires of Xin-Shalast (GM Reference)


Rise of the Runelords

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Lava Child wrote:

I just ran the Last part of the cabin encounter...

...So, what will the wendigo do to prepare for the pcs return? I might have him abduct and transform local shoanti heroes into undead servants. I want something new to challenge the players when they return loaded for bear. . . I mean wendigo.

A few random ideas:

- it doesn't sound like the pc's put Karivek to rest so he should still be around. Perhaps he's now dominated an Ice Linnorm. Maybe one that the Wendigo has been tormenting - it has some level of Wendigo Psychosis (in way of explaining reduced will saves etc. and Karivek's success in dominating it.)
- Or there are Frost Giants or Yeti or Winter wolves in the area - group leaders dominated by Karivek. Again they have been driven to the area of the cabin by the wendigo and many/all are struggling with Wendigo psychosis. (The giants or yeti would foreshadow Xin Shalast.)
- the Wendigo has Nightmare which doesn't have a distance limitation so the wizard, cleric and druid should be targets. Perhaps more than once each depending on how long they take to recover and return.


First time in a long time I've heard of a group having significant trouble from a wendigo. If the wendigo has attained his objective, then the players will have to track it to its terrain of choice rather than someplace they would find more defensible. This is not going to be something that they would enjoy methinks...

Grand Lodge

Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Latrecis wrote:
Skeld wrote:
Fromper wrote:

Yeah, the front liners in my group are over 40 AC, too. And it goes up when they buff (which they frequently do).

Luckily, rune giants have a "breath" weapon, too. :) Also, Karzoug has studied them well enough to know which ones to engage in melee, and passed that information on to his top lieutenants in Xin Shalast. So every rune giant knows to breath weapon the two guys in the heavy armor and save the melee for the sorcerer, oracle, and the ranger's bow (which is likely to be sundered in the not-too-distant future).

For the final battle in the Eye of Avarice, Karzoug crafted his Rune Giant bodyguard a brilliant energy greatsword. That leveled the playing field a bit.

-Skeld

Oooooooohhhhhh! That sounds magically delicious. Probability is exceptionally high that I will be stealing that idea.

Do eet!

-Skeld


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Any suggestions against PCS with obscenely high dodge bonuses to AC? :)

(My players' characters include a Dex-based multi-class horror which uses Crane Style feats and other things.)


Bellona wrote:

Any suggestions against PCS with obscenely high dodge bonuses to AC? :)

(My players' characters include a Dex-based multi-class horror which uses Crane Style feats and other things.)

Blinding works wonders.


The group I am running has been playing for about a year now, and we will finish book 5 tonight. The tough part is I took a new job and will be moving away in 3 weeks, so we need to find a way to finish without things being comically rushed.

Anybody have any experience or good ideas for shortening book 6? We can probably get in 6-7 sessions of about 5 hours each since we are all pretty geared up to actually complete the game.

In book 5 I ended up converting 3 of the runeforge wings into sort of choose your own adventure books where I presented individual players or the whole party with a series of fixed choices and consequences to speed things up a bunch. Actually led to some funny cases where they ended up parlaying with Azaven for information rather than fighting and tricked Odicon out of some gear and knowledge by playing on his madness. I can do some of the same in the last book, but I'm wondering if some parts would be better to cut or dramatically change instead.


A lot of Chapter 6 can be condensed. IIRC there are only a half-dozen or so "essential fights", including the BBEG. Since the group is shoehorning all of Chapter 6 into a mere 3 weeks, that means you're playing, what, twice a week?

I'd probably go for 1 or 2 fights with lots of prepared handouts et al to cover things.

Lemme see ...

Enter the city and whack-a-mole entry permits (amulets I think), session 1.

2 sessions, to hack their way into the BBEG's lair.

Finale is digging the BBEG out like a tick, allow two sessions to do this.


Book 6 breaks down into three parts:

1. Find Xin Shalast. Solve the problems of the ghost dwarves and defeat the Wendigo. I'd put the frost nymph encounter here as well.
2. Explore the city/find the "keys" - while taking out various minions/allies of Karzoug acquire Sihedron items to bypass/survive the Occluding Field.
3. Take out Karzoug. Wade through his minions in the Pinnacle and finish the job you started in Sandpoint oh so long ago.

Part 1 and 2 have the only role-playing or story elements (whereas Part 3 is all-combat, all-the-time) but are not "required." You could have the location of Xin Shalast be discovered in material from Runeforge - where there was no reason for anyone to hide it. And you could simply omit the Occluding Field. Ergo the pc's easily get to Xin Shalast (via teleport or some such) go straight to the Pinnacle and start taking out its occupants.

I'd agree with the Mad Comrade, allow for two sessions for the Eye itself and then tailor the encounters to let the pc's get through the Pinnacle in whatever sessions would remain. You could reduce the number of giants, skip Karzoug's champion or Khalib or the lamia's to pare down the encounters to fit in your schedule.

Sovereign Court

The Mad Comrade wrote:
Bellona wrote:

Any suggestions against PCS with obscenely high dodge bonuses to AC? :)

(My players' characters include a Dex-based multi-class horror which uses Crane Style feats and other things.)

Blinding works wonders.

The Flowing Monk of the Sacred Mountain in my game took the Blind-Fight chain precisely because being Blind is such a bummer for his obscene AC. I second this, but I'd use the tactic sparingly.

Sovereign Court

subgenious wrote:

The group I am running has been playing for about a year now, and we will finish book 5 tonight. The tough part is I took a new job and will be moving away in 3 weeks, so we need to find a way to finish without things being comically rushed.

Anybody have any experience or good ideas for shortening book 6? We can probably get in 6-7 sessions of about 5 hours each since we are all pretty geared up to actually complete the game.

In book 5 I ended up converting 3 of the runeforge wings into sort of choose your own adventure books where I presented individual players or the whole party with a series of fixed choices and consequences to speed things up a bunch. Actually led to some funny cases where they ended up parlaying with Azaven for information rather than fighting and tricked Odicon out of some gear and knowledge by playing on his madness. I can do some of the same in the last book, but I'm wondering if some parts would be better to cut or dramatically change instead.

Depopulate the areas of Lower Xin-Shalast that don't have maps in the adventure, as it prevents the group being sidetracked into the fortress of giants in Shahlaria or lost in The Tangle.

On that note, I wish every named, gazetted location in the city had a map. I loved the Wendigo siege, but I would have happily traded that whole subplot to have Lower Xin-Shalast get more maps and encounters.


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Could put the wendigo doing its thing in the Lower City instead. Have it make more wendigos from the locals to drive Our Heroes into where Da Plot needs them to be.


Thanks for the advice guys. I ended up getting a little lucky that the party had rescued one of the goldfish people, and I made it up that he was actually a spy from the veils of pride who was caught in the trap when attempting to learn more about Karzoug's hibernation method. His knowledge of ancient Xin combined with Brodert's lore and a visit to the pathfinder society were enough for me to make a plausible explanation for tracking down the city's true location. This cut the cabin adventure entirely.

Now the party is looking down on the city, ready to make their assault. Since time is soooo tight now, I plan to update the occlusion field with the change that anyone wielding a dominant weapon against greed has the same immunity as a sihedron ring. There will also be many plot hints given that the return of the runelord is coming basically "any minute now" and that the party needs to rush up the mountain to start the assault on the spire. I feel bad gutting so much content, but you gotta do what you gotta do, and I want to leave enough time to the final assault is a bit drawn out and memorable.

Silver Crusade

My group has reached the Pinnacle of Avarice, but haven't entered yet, so I'm prepping for the end.

I've mostly run it "by the book" (anniversary edition), but I'm definitely making a few changes here. I still don't want to change too much, but there are some obvious things that need to happen, and I have a couple of questions and requests for suggestions.

1. Any recommendations for Karzoug's spells? He knows everything about the PCs, so I'm deciding what to change. He'll definitely cast a few Mass Resist Energy spells in preparation for the fire and acid blasting our party is known for. Our front liners are pretty much unhittable in melee (ACs in the 40s), and the biggest damage dealer is the archer ranger with evasion (and a holy, dominant longbow). I'm thinking the rune giant in the Eye of Avarice will be targeting the ranger's longbow with a disarm combat maneuver before anything else. What other changes to tactics would Karzoug go for?

2. Do dominant weapons automatically absorb transmutations the first three times per day the owners are targeted, or is it a choice by the owner? I was thinking Karzoug might cast Mass Reduce Person at the party through his images, just to make them waste that power before they face him in person, if they don't have a choice. But the halfling oracle (the party healer, and thus one of the highest priority targets) would probably choose to just let it through after making the spellcraft to identify it.

3. I decided I want to account for all the enemies that survived the party earlier in the adventure path. Black Maga is too busy swimming to team up with Karzoug, and Malfeshnekor worked for Alaznist and hated Karzoug, so the party's off the hook there. But Lyrie Akenja (Nualia's wizard) got away from Thistletop in book 1. I've decided she's Karzoug's newest apprentice. She probably hasn't leveled up enough to be a threat by herself, but boosting her to around level 10-12 and having her throw a few spells at the party from the back line while they're fighting giants or other things could make things a little tougher, and bring some closure to that loose end. Does anyone have stats for her around that level I could use, so I don't have to level her up from scratch? Or suggestions for where to find a decent NPC wizard that I could use for her?

4. Speaking of old enemies that got away, Seleval and Zaelsar, the two lamia priestess that lived under Jorgenfist, survived as well. The party teamed up with Kona and agreed not to hurt more giants than necessary while going after Mokmurian. They went down to the lowest level and came back with Mokmurian's head, so most of Jorgenfist's residents were willing to surrender to their authority, including these lamias. The party let them go, and I already knew they'd head straight to Xin Shalast to report these events to Karzoug (not realizing that he already saw it all through Mokmurian). So here's the question: Is Karzoug mad at them for not even trying to fight the PCs, or glad for their loyalty in returning to tell him what's up? I haven't decided if I'm just adding those 2 to the other 4 lamia priestesses that are in the Pinnacle of Avarice to make that fight harder, or if I should put the two of them in Ceoptra's prison and let the party use them as a source of information in exchange for their freedom.

I'm sure I'll think of more later.

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

WRT mass reduce person I did this very trick on them. I recommend implying that, once they seem to be on the final push to the Eye, Bad Things will happen if they rest. That's when you start hitting them with mass reduce, softening them up for the final fight. Then, when you get into the actual fight, he casts a low-level transmutation effect on the party (slow, perhaps?), followed by something nasty.

As for Lyrie, you might consider reskinning [url=http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/npc-s/npc-9/exander-runthorn/]this guy,[/i] who happens to be the right level range for you.

Dark Archive

I prerolled some perception checks at the top as the various monsters have really good perceptions and not surprisingly the first fight effectively trigger every mobile enemy in the place. Which would not have been quite so epic, but they delayed in the room and gave almost all of those enemies a chance to get their and ready themselves.

For Karzoug himself I spent a bunch of time figuring out likely spells he'd burn a wish or limited wish on. Fickle Winds almost completely negated the Zen archer. If not for a very high initiative roll by the right member of the party I might very well have TPKed them. I never got a chance to pull it off, but having the giants use awesome blow to knock a PC through the prismatic wall is pretty vicious. Sure there saves are really high, but can you make 7 in a row?


My group is in the Pinnacle as well. We've been held up by RealLife the past month or so but I'm guessing two or three sessions and then they confront Karzoug.

Here are some spells I'm considering for Karzoug (many have come from reading numerous threads here in the RotRL forum): Time Stop (excpect this to get used several times), Fiery Body, Mass Defending Sword, Wall of Suppression, Prismatic Sphere (probably made permanent somewhere in the Eye) Spellbane (Party wizard is a conjurer - I'm thinking summon monster IX, VIII, VII and something else.) Mage's Disjunction (I guessing this is going to be a mutually assured destruction thing with pc's hurling that as well), Maze of Madness and Suffering (dwarven fighter, I'm looking at you,) Mass Suffocation, and Wail of the Banshee. Now those are all 9th level spells so he can't have all of them memorized. But he might have scrolls...

Other spells of interest: Greater Spellcrash, Horrid Wilting, Symbol of Dispelling, eldritch conduit greater and hostile juxtaposition greater. Some for boosting his minions: stoneskin communal, protection from energy communal, magic army, mass bear's endurance, mass bull's strength.

My interpretation is that the absorbing of the transmutation spells is not conscious or optional. First three are absorbed regardless of possessor desire. I don't see any reason to make the ability any more powerful - it already neuters the specialization school of the BBEG for the entire AP. Also, I like simple over complicated.

I might put Lyrie in the Pinnacle rather than the Eye - perhaps she's with Viorian, the only other human who's from her own time.

You could add the Lamia's to the other priestesses. Or you could have them transformed into Hungerers as punishment for their failure. That's what I did/am doing with Lucrecia who failed at the dam, the lost Fort Rannick and failed to take out the pc's before they got to Mokmurian. She's going to be recognizable as a "pet" of the Most High Ceoptra in the Chamber of the Anima Focus.

Dark Archive

Given I had a pretty potent party I also really tried to focus earlier battles on using party resources. Healing wasn't so much of an issue, but ability damage, drain and negative levels. Sure they had restorations handy, but making them get low adds to the tension. So having Karzoug cast Enervation from his images is a solid move. He's unlikely to cast is in the final battle straight up. Other buff spells at lower levels from his image can help the strength of the combatants too.

Silver Crusade

I think I want the surviving lamias from Jorgenfist to be there in their original form, standing behind other enemies they have to fight as healers. That'll just taunt the party a little for letting them live.

I don't plan on completely redoing Karzoug and Khalib's spell lists. I just want to tweak them to make sure they have specific counters to what they know about the PCs, and don't waste slots on stuff that won't be useful. But I don't want to change their entire way of thinking and preparing their normal spells every day.

Silver Crusade

So I'm going through Karzoug's spell list. As I said, I don't want to change too much. My party should face his "images" for the first time on Sunday, so I have to have his prepared spell list done by then.

One thing that occurred to me is that with a DC of 25, his level 1 Grease is actually still useful. I could totally see him using that to get the party cavalier with 10 dex to drop his dominant weapon, while next to a giant or something who then picks it up. There's really no reason for him to have Alarm prepared, so I think extra preparations of Grease are in order for his level 1s. It may even be worth a quickened level 5 slot.

Actually, that brings up an interesting point: The one thing Karzoug doesn't know for sure about the group is what their dominant weapons are. He only knows the first one created, because that alerted him, and then he attacked them as a statue in Runeforge. But he couldn't spy on them after that in Runeforge to see what else they turned into dominant weapons, and nothing that's happened since then would tip him off. His most obvious guess would be that it would be the primary weapons used by the martials, but that's still just a guess, and doesn't account for the ones carried by the casters. Should it be visually obvious when a dominant weapon absorbs a transmutation spell, so he will see what they are as soon as he hits them with the first Mass Reduce Person?

As Davor mentioned above, I need to decide what he'd use his Wish and Limited Wish spells on, but that's not likely to come up until the final fight, which is at least half a dozen sessions away for our slow group.

Fickle Winds in the final fight to shut down the archer is a good idea. And as I mentioned above, Mass Resist Energy on himself and his allies in the Eye of Avarice will slow down the fire and acid damage that the party usually brings in massive quantities (blasting focused sorcerer and flame oracle).

I think I don't want him to waste Slow on just shutting down the dominant weapon powers. That's actually a good spell for him to use on the whole party after their dominant weapons are no longer absorbing transmutations. Some of them will make the save, but with 7 targets (5 PCs, a mount, and an animal companion), plus maybe an 8th (the angel guarding Mokmurian's entrance who could end up teamed with them), it's a good bet at least 2 will actually fail the save. And the party doesn't have Haste to undo it (the oracle uses Blessing of Fervor, and the sorcerer is too busy blasting).


Does he have arcane sight or, more importantly, greater arcane sight active?

He'll know via the latter immediately what they've got up and running. If they're lucky he's not packing a disjunction to tear down the probable layer-cake of spells they'll have up and running before booting open his door.

If they're wearing sihedron rings and/or sihedron amulets, he has a free ticket to scry on 'em all day long. IIRC "Big K" has a crystal ball or something equivalent lying around in his lair.

Per numerous statements by the devs, spells almost always have immediately obvious visible effects when they operate. Also, multiple long-duration abjurations have a perceivable effect unique unto themselves. He should readily pick up on these clues in combination with his own divinations and previous intelligence-gathering mechanisms to have a good idea of what's coming.

telekinesis, especially when Quickened, is very useful to him and its Transmutation, his specialization. Not how he wants to grab the weapon - that's what minions are for - but a great method to wreck havoc ... perhaps by snatching the archer's bow from his hands unless it too has been dipped in Transmutation-thwarting gold (made dominant runeforged).

Silver Crusade

Yes, he has permanent Arcane Sight, I believe.

Going through his spells, I realized just how tough this is going to be for the party. My unoptimized group may not be able to handle it. Actually, I'm not really seeing any reason to change his higher level spells, just a couple of the lower ones (get rid of Alarm and Keen Edge for more Grease and Glitterdust, etc).

I do have one question, not related to Karzoug. How did Khalib bind the planetar at Mokmurian's entrance? The spell makes it sound like he should only be able to bind things closely aligned with his alignment and goals. And the bound creature can turn down suicidal jobs, so why not those that are very much opposed to their alignment?


Fromper wrote:

Yes, he has permanent Arcane Sight, I believe.

Going through his spells, I realized just how tough this is going to be for the party. My unoptimized group may not be able to handle it. Actually, I'm not really seeing any reason to change his higher level spells, just a couple of the lower ones (get rid of Alarm and Keen Edge for more Grease and Glitterdust, etc).

I do have one question, not related to Karzoug. How did Khalib bind the planetar at Mokmurian's entrance? The spell makes it sound like he should only be able to bind things closely aligned with his alignment and goals. And the bound creature can turn down suicidal jobs, so why not those that are very much opposed to their alignment?

He used Planar Binding, not Planar Ally. He probably used Agonize or something similar to get her to give in to his demands.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

I favour the idea of putting Lyrie with Viorian. IIRC, Lyrie is scripted to flee to Riddleport if she escapes Thistletop, so they might have met there. Maybe Viorian is occasionally let out from Xin-Shalast for espionage missions into Varisia, and chose ambitious Lyrie as a henchwoman/assistant.

Otherwise there isn't any kind of direct connection between Lyrie and Karzoug. There's no evidence that Lyrie knew Xanesha (IIRC, everything went through Nualia), so no way for her to get to Xin-Shalast on her own. (And Xin-Shalast is supposed to be supremely difficult to find!)


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My own interpretation is that between scrying on the sihedron items (which he knows they must have if they're in the Pinnacle not to mention casualties among his lieutenants in the Lower City) and "encountering" them via his images (and arcane sight) he should know every magic item they have (that isn't concealed in something like a bag of holding) and know all the tactics they use in each Pinnacle fight, including buffs, etc.

It's justified for the GM to create highly effective counter tactics and well-tailored exploits for attacking the pc's given Karzoug's information, intelligence and wealth. Of course, GM's also need to tailor the encounters to their player's system mastery and effectiveness.

For my part, my players have extensive experience and system mastery and their pc's are well-optimized, so the restraining bolt is fully off. I've been hitting them as hard as Karzoug can through the images and having the Pinnacle's residents gather at the image points so they can benefit from Karzoug's spells. Wail of the Banshee is lethal - I've killed two pc's with it already. The scrolls of true resurrection (one from the Spared) have come in handy. The other benefit to using Karzoug's most powerful spells early is to signal to the pc's what they should prepare for ahead of the final encounter. After he hit them the first time with Wail, they discussed preparing for that the next time they returned to the Pinnacle (they've had to retreat once already.) Only they didn't, so <WHACK!> They probably won't make that mistake again.

And yes, Karzoug will definitely hit them with mage's disjunction in the final encounter. Seems wrong for one of the most powerful wizards in Golarion's history NOT to use that spell in a fight for his very life.

Silver Crusade

Since Forcecage can't be dispelled, I don't know that my party has a way to deal with it. Karzoug would definitely want to put one of the party members in it while he deals with the others. I just haven't decided if he'd prefer to shut down the archer (biggest threat to actually damage him right away) or the oracle (party healer) first.

About Lyrie, I'm thinking she ran to Magnimar first, got recruited by Xanesha, who thought she had potential, and sent to Xin Shalast to learn more magic under Karzoug and Khalib. I'm thinking of having her with Khalib, as the apprentice's apprentice. She's just there to throw a fireball and a couple of magic missiles at the party while they're fighting other enemies, just to soften them up. Mostly, she's there to make the party angry that she got away the first time. ;P


The archer most likely, unless he has a few wind walls tucked up a sleeve.

Dark Archive

My group pulled out some serious cheese, all PFS legal. They had bought scrolls of Mind Blank and cast that before entering. It turns out even at high levels the immunity to divination magic makes invisibility quite effective again. Eventually I realized that Fairy Fire could still solve that issue, but it also cut way down on the amount of spying I could do on the group. Another spell that I got good use out of was Sirroco. They were an evasion heavy group, so a fort save still guaranteed me some damage, and made them fatigued with the possibility of getting exhausted. They stayed mobile enough that I wasn't able to get that far, but they all had high saves, high AC, and pretty good CMDs.


Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

Summer is about over and almost time to be back to DMing again.

I've been thinking about the link between leaving the Runeforge and finding the Vekker's cabin - I expect my party to go to do research on who they were and what happened to their expedition.

Did anyone expand upon that element?


My group's not there yet, but the logical place to research the Vekkers would be Janderhoff. That's where they got their investors, many of whom are likely still alive (considering common dwarven lifespans). Janderhoff also likely has people who knew members of the expeditions -- past lovers and spouses, parents, maybe young dwarves just reaching adventuring age who always wondered what happened to their other parent.

That's the route I'd take, anyway.

Sovereign Court

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I don't know if anyone's still interested, but I rebuilt Karzoug for the final fight to be significantly more dangerous (because my PCs would have steamrolled him otherwise) and with updated sources, spells and theme.

Karzoug 2.0:

Karzoug the Claimer, Runelord of Greed
Male Azlanti Human Chronomancer Thassilonian Transmuter Wizard 20
NE Medium humanoid (human)

Initiative = +20+1d6 (+9 DEX, +1 Pale Green Prism, +1 Stone of Good Luck, +5 Anticipate Peril, +1d6 Forewarned, +4 Heightened Awareness)

Senses = Arcane Sight, Darkvision, Echolocation, Perception +33, See Invisibility, True Seeing

Defence
AC 42, touch 25, flat-footed 33 (+8 armour, +5 deflection, +9 DEX, +5 natural, +4 shield, +1 insight)
SR = 31 (Upgraded Robes of Xin-Shalast)
HP = 300 (20d6+180);
Temporary HP = 200 [Greater False Life, 25x Emerald Ellipsoid Ioun Stones]);
Fast Healing = 10
Regeneration = 1
Fort = +21, Ref = +22, Will +28;

Defensive Abilities (not including spells cast, brackets are abbreviated items that grant the defensive ability):
Immune to: Aging (IS), Bleed (Im), Confusion (ToL), Death/Energy Drain/Negative Energy effects (12/12, SoP), Disease (Im), Feeblemind (ToL), Insanity (ToL), Poison (IS), Soul Bind (CoGS), Trap the Soul (CoGS)
Doesn't need Air, Food, Water (IS)
Absorbs spells of 8th level or lower (Lavender and Green Ellipsoid)
Blur (CoMD), Freedom of Movement (RoFM), Nondetection (CoGS)

Offence
Speed 60 feet (Expeditious Retreat); fly 60 feet (perfect) (Runewell Amulet)

Melee
Karzoug's Upgraded Burning Glaive +24/+19 (1d10+17+1d6 fire/x3)
Talons of Leng +22/+17 (1d4+11/x3, on crit causes permanent Insanity on failed DC 20 Will Save or 1 round of Confusion on a successful save)

Spell-Like Abilities (CL 21; concentration +42, +2 to cast defensively and 3/day reroll a cast defensively check)
18/day Augment (+4 enhancement bonus to an ability score or +5 natural armour bonus, lasts 10 rounds)
3/3 day Time Stutter (Time Stop for 1 round)
18/day Perfection of Self (swift action, +10 enhancement bonus to an ability score for 1 round)

Spells Prepared (CL 21; concentration +42, +2 to cast defensively and 3/day reroll a cast defensively check)
Ranges:
Close = 75'; Medium = 310'; Long = 1240'

9th = 9 (DC 35)
Mage's Disjunction, Clashing Rocks, Meteor Swarm, Mass Suffocation, Fiery Body, Time Stop (2), Wish, Quickened Telekinesis
8th = 9 (DC 34)
Protection from Spells, Maze, Moment of Prescience, Stormbolts, Polymorph Any Objects, Temporal Regression, Temporal Stasis (2), Quickened Firefall
7th = 10 (DC 33)
Deflection, Walk through Space, Delayed Blast Fireball (2), Waves of Exhaustion, Resonating Word, Temporal Divergence (2), Limited Wish, Quickened Slow
6th = 10 (DC 32)
Greater Dispel Magic, Wall of Iron, True Seeing, Chain Lightning, Banshee Blast, Borrowed Time, Disintegrate (2), Flesh to Stone, Quickened Pyrotechnics
5th = 10 (DC 31)
Wreath of Blades, Acidic Spray, Lightning Arc, Suffocation, Baleful Polymorph, Echolocation, Fickle Winds, Telekinesis (2), Quickened True Strike
4th = 10 (DC 30)
True Form, Dimension Door, Named Bullet, Detonate, Greater False Life, Calcific Touch, Firefall (2), Telekinetic Maneuver, Obsidian Flow
3rd = 11 (DC 29)
Dispel Magic, Greater Stunning Barrier, Protection from Energy, Gloomblind Bolts, Unravel Destiny, Battering Blast, Malediction, Haste, Greater Magic Weapon, Slow (2)
2nd = 11 (DC 28)
Resist Energy, Storm of Blades, Embrace Destiny, Scorching Ray, Spectral Hand, Blood Armour, Kinetic Reverberation, Pyrotechnics (2), Visualisation of the Body, Visualisation of the Mind
1st = 11 (DC 27)
Shield, Wave Shield, True Strike, Magic Missile, Ray of Enfeeblement, Burning Disarm (2), Break, Feather Fall, Liberating Command, Touch of Gracelessness
Cantrips = 4 (DC 26)
Mage Hand, Mending, Message, Open/Close

Statistics
STR 26 DEX 28 CON 26 INT 42 WIS 28 CHA 30
(+8 enhancement bonus to all but DEX, +10 enhancement to DEX and INT, +5 inherent bonus to all; +3 age bonuses to INT, WIS, CHA; +5 ability score improvements to INT, -2 WIS from Talons)

BAB +10/+5; CMB +19; CMD 42

Feats (12): Craft Rod, Craft Staff, Craft Wand, Craft Wondrous Item, Eschew Materials, Forge Ring, Greater Spell Focus (Transmutation), Greater Spell Penetration, Quicken Spell, Spell Focus (Transmutation), Spell Penetration, Toughness

Bonus Feats: Alertness, Scribe Scroll

Arcane Discoveries: Idealize, Staff-Like Wand

Skills (400): Appraise (+41), Bluff (+37), Diplomacy (+37), Fly (+41), Intimidate (+32), Knowledge (all, +46), Linguistics (+41), Perception (+33), Sense Motive (+33), Spellcraft (+41), Use Magic Device (+32)

Languages (36): Aboleth, Ancient Osiriani, Azlanti, Jistka, Necril, Shoanti, Shory, Tekritanin, Thassilonian, Varisian, all Core Rulebook languages (21), others (5), Tongues

Special Qualities: Accelerate, Complex Contingency, Exceptional Stats, Forewarned, Immortal, Inherent Bonuses, Parallel Self, Permanent Spells, Physical Enhancement (+5 DEX +5 CON), Rewind, Temporal Pool (25/25), Villain Points (5/5)

Implanted Ioun Stones: Amber Spindle (5), Clear Spindle, Dark Blue Rhomboid, Dusty Rose Prism, Emerald Ellipsoid (25), Gamboge Nodule, Iridescent Spindle, Lavender and Green Ellipsoid, Mossy Disks (10), Mulberry Pentacle, Nacreous Grey Sphere, Opalescent White Pyramid, Orange Prism, Pale Green Prism

Rings: Ring of Freedom of Movement, Ring of Regeneration;

Rods: Rod of Greater Quicken Metamagic, Rod of Quicken Metamagic, Rod of Lesser Quicken Metamagic

Wands: Wand of Bull's Strength (CL 3, 45 charges), Wand of Cat's Grace (CL 3rd, 43 charges), Wand of Bear's Endurance (CL 3rd, 45 charges), Wand of Fox's Cunning (CL 3rd, 32 charges), Wand of Owl's Wisdom (CL 3rd, 40 charges), Wand of Eagle's Splendour (CL 3rd, 32 charges), Wand of Anticipate Peril (CL 1, 31 charges), Wand of Heightened Awareness (CL 1, 33 charges)

Belt: Belt of Physical Perfection +6;
Body: Upgraded Robes of Xin-Shalast (increased SR to 31),
Chest: Tunic of Careful Casting;
Eyes: Annihilation Spectacles,
Feet: Jaunt Boots;
Hands: Talons of Leng;
Head: Iron Circlet of Guarded Souls;
Headband: Headband of Mental Superiority +6;
Neck: Runewell Amulet (including Scarab of Protection);
Shoulders: Cloak of Minor Displacement;
Arms: Spellguard Bracers;
Slotless: Stone of Good Luck, Sihedron Tome, Spell Components and Foci (100,000gp);
Weapon: Karzoug's Upgraded Burning Glaive (increased to +5 Dancing Flaming Burst)

If you've got questions about suggested tactics, feel free to reply and I'll reply to them.

Scarab Sages

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Maps, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber
Tinalles wrote:
My group's not there yet, but the logical place to research the Vekkers would be Janderhoff.

My group is almost certainly going to talk to Brodert, so it'll play out as written. They've maintained a relationship with him and even teleported him to the Library of Thassilon to research and spend time with the Clockwork Librarian.


2 people marked this as a favorite.
Leandro Garvel wrote:

I don't know if anyone's still interested, but I rebuilt Karzoug for the final fight to be significantly more dangerous (because my PCs would have steamrolled him otherwise) and with updated sources, spells and theme.

** spoiler omitted **...

This looks pretty cool. I probably won't use most of the rebuild but I am really interested in the spell selection - that's where I am focusing my preparatory efforts. My players are probably 2 sessions from the final battle.

Interestingly, you chose some of the same spells I've been planning on: clashing rocks, mass suffocation, fiery body, protection from spells, stormbolts, wreath of blades, waves of exhaustion. But I'm not going to use any of the targeted transmutation spells in his specialist slots such as disintegrate or temporal stasis. All of my pc's have Dominant weapons and its just a waste of his time. Time that he is really short on - or more accurately action economy. Instead I'm going to have him use things like mass bull's strength, etc. to buff his minions and keep them alive.

Sovereign Court

Latrecis wrote:
Leandro Garvel wrote:

I don't know if anyone's still interested, but I rebuilt Karzoug for the final fight to be significantly more dangerous (because my PCs would have steamrolled him otherwise) and with updated sources, spells and theme.

** spoiler omitted **...

This looks pretty cool. I probably won't use most of the rebuild but I am really interested in the spell selection - that's where I am focusing my preparatory efforts. My players are probably 2 sessions from the final battle.

Interestingly, you chose some of the same spells I've been planning on: clashing rocks, mass suffocation, fiery body, protection from spells, stormbolts, wreath of blades, waves of exhaustion. But I'm not going to use any of the targeted transmutation spells in his specialist slots such as disintegrate or temporal stasis. All of my pc's have Dominant weapons and its just a waste of his time. Time that he is really short on - or more accurately action economy. Instead I'm going to have him use things like mass bull's strength, etc. to buff his minions and keep them alive.

The only reason I gave him any was because only one of my party took made a Dominant weapon, and I managed to use Khalib's transmutation spells to force him to use 2 of the 3 'absorb a harmful transmutation' uses that day.

Karzoug's super smart, he'd definitely prep buffs like you say if the party are defended against his hostile transmutations.

Clashing Rocks can lock several PCs down if they can't teleport, Mass Suffocation is really dangerous (it nearly killed the whole party in my fight), Fiery Body is great for defence and Stormbolts is Karzoug's 'I'm surrounded and I want out' but with added stunning lightning!


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Leandro Garvel wrote:
Latrecis wrote:
Leandro Garvel wrote:

I don't know if anyone's still interested, but I rebuilt Karzoug for the final fight to be significantly more dangerous (because my PCs would have steamrolled him otherwise) and with updated sources, spells and theme.

** spoiler omitted **...

This looks pretty cool. I probably won't use most of the rebuild but I am really interested in the spell selection - that's where I am focusing my preparatory efforts. My players are probably 2 sessions from the final battle.

Interestingly, you chose some of the same spells I've been planning on: clashing rocks, mass suffocation, fiery body, protection from spells, stormbolts, wreath of blades, waves of exhaustion. But I'm not going to use any of the targeted transmutation spells in his specialist slots such as disintegrate or temporal stasis. All of my pc's have Dominant weapons and its just a waste of his time. Time that he is really short on - or more accurately action economy. Instead I'm going to have him use things like mass bull's strength, etc. to buff his minions and keep them alive.

The only reason I gave him any was because only one of my party took made a Dominant weapon, and I managed to use Khalib's transmutation spells to force him to use 2 of the 3 'absorb a harmful transmutation' uses that day.

My expectation is my group will rest before entering the Eye. Assuming they clear out the Pinnacle successfully - I expect they will rest in the Anima Focus room and hit Karzoug at full strength. There really isn't anything he can do about it. My interpretation is that since they are all wearing Sihedron items (mostly forced on them because of the Occluding Field) Karzoug will know when they're coming and can buff, etc. As the pc's buff up, he will too. Ergo, their dominant weapons will have their full allotment of absorption charges for the day. I've altered Khalib's spell memorization as well - he knows they have dominant weapons as well.


Early draft of my spell list for karzoug, focused for my party.
Note that I completely misunderstood the visualisation spells - you can only have one up at a time.
Wall of suppression is brutal - only use if you are very confident in your party, or you hate them :).
Arodens Spellbane on Anti Magic Field and other 'wizard killer' spells.
I know I later added anti-summoning field to impede the caster druid, true form was for the druid as well.
Open Arms to mitigate the smite from the paladin.
Fickle Winds for the archer warpriest that just did ridiculous damage.

Silver Crusade

So here's a weird question. Planetars cast spells like clerics, so does that mean Ayruzi can change her prepared spells every day like a cleric? Or is she stuck with the list in the Bestiary?

Also, does Ayruzi have an official "patron deity"? I ask because they're using her help to bring back a party member that Karzoug managed to kill when they fought one of his images, and I found this in the Core Rulebook chapter on magic:

Quote:
A soul can't be returned to life if it doesn't wish to be. A soul knows the name, alignment, and patron deity (if any) of the character attempting to revive it and may refuse to return on that basis.

I just thought it would be fun to drop a hint between sessions to the player whose PC is dead, to let him know that someone he's never met is trying to return him to the living.


Planetars can indeed change their spells prepared. Don't put this in the hands of your players or monitor it closely.

I'm not aware of any official patron. I just had it be identical to the party paladin because I'm just that mean and Ayruzi wasn't suffering enough.


There is an (if any) in there. You could simply say, "Ayruzi, a lawful good Angel from Heaven, wants to resurrect you." That should be more than enough information for the character to make a decision.


Leandro Garvel wrote:

I don't know if anyone's still interested, but I rebuilt Karzoug for the final fight to be significantly more dangerous (because my PCs would have steamrolled him otherwise) and with updated sources, spells and theme.

** spoiler omitted **...

Leandro your stat block is great as I am looking into toughening part 6 myself too. My players are optimized and i want to give them hell in part 6 and make xin-shalast as epic as possible as I am confident they can handle it..can you please state your party (for example how many players..) and how did your last fight end up playing out? thanks in advance


Hey GMs, I find myself in need of map/scale advice for Xin-Shalast's Lower City and the Pinnacle of Avarice.

My group is heading into the Lower City next game session (running Anniversary Edition). For years we have played on the biggest Chessex battle mat I could find (at the time), which is 36"x48" and covers about 95% of my dining table (which is oval, and has to seat 6 players plus myself). There are six PCs and two cohorts, one of which is size Large (ogre fighter). Because of the "margin" around the edge of the mat, I only get 34 1" squares by 46, which at standard scale is 170' by 230', and that's without character sheets, dice, snacks, drinks, etc. cluttering the table.

I am apprehensive about trying to run combats in Xin-Shalast as a result.

Considering a majority of enemies are giants size Large or Huge, and considering the width of Krak Naratha on the map of the Lower City (p.323) looks to be half a mile, how in the world am I going to run tactical combat in a way that doesn't involve redrawing things in the middle of combat?

My first thoughts:
I was thinking of changing scale to 1" = 10', and perhaps using small d6s to represent the PCs so that 4 could fit in a single square, then use Medium-sized miniatures for Large sized giants, and... that's where things unravel. Maybe use regular plastic dice box lids for size Huge as they are slightly more than 1" on a side. Movement would be slightly imprecise, as would ranges and threatened "squares," but I think it would make a given combat scene a bit more manageable without having to dispense with a battle mat entirely.

But I am so stuck in this mindset I worry I'm missing more obvious and simpler solutions. Considering the nonlinear nature of Part 4, it's a statistical given that the PCs are going to want to try something not covered in the book, so how can I remain "fast and loose" with encounter areas?

The same goes for the Pinnacle, although encounters there have the potential of being slightly more linear.

Thanks in advance. Our first game session in the Lower City is one week from tomorrow!

Scarab Sages

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Maps, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber

I printed the major encounter maps, like the Hidden Beast and Ghlorofaex. I left Krak Naratha unmapped and we talked through it. Once we knew which way they were going, I sketched a rough outline. They ended up displayed the Sihedron medallions and bluffing their way into the city, so I was glad I hadn't spent too much time trying to design maps.

I'd pick a couple possible routes they might come in, and have an idea of how you'd sketch that or which Pathfinder flip mats you'd use, and then do those on the fly.

For the Pinnacle, I've split it into the areas I think combat will fall into and printed those. For the Eye, I'm going all out and trying to build a 4' x 7' model.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

I am looking ahead to the final battle, where Special K has a lot of advance information about the heroes.

One of my two groups uses a lot of debuffs. Certain ones he can defend against with the help of his Talons of Leng, Mind Blank, Freedom of Movement, and his (admittedly not very impressive) Spell Resistance. But what about de-buffs which apply conditions like Dazed, Nauseated, Staggered, and Stunned? Am I overlooking any obvious spells or other defences against such things?


Bellona wrote:

I am looking ahead to the final battle, where Special K has a lot of advance information about the heroes.

One of my two groups uses a lot of debuffs. Certain ones he can defend against with the help of his Talons of Leng, Mind Blank, Freedom of Movement, and his (admittedly not very impressive) Spell Resistance. But what about de-buffs which apply conditions like Dazed, Nauseated, Staggered, and Stunned? Am I overlooking any obvious spells or other defences against such things?

Note: my suggestions are a) based on what I did (so I might be biased) and b) involve changing his spell list.

First thing on the list: Protection from Spells. And hey looky here - he can do it for his minions too! (He's the Runelord of Greed - cost for material componets is irrelevant.) Another option on the magic protection list: Spellbane. If the pc's have a go-to spell they use all the time, Karzoug should know what it is and have a defense for it. He has a 36 Int. He's arguably the smartest creature on Golarion (okay technically he's not ON Golarion, but you know what I mean :) He ruled a powerful nation-state in the most ruthless, power mad empire the world has ever seen for hundreds of years - it should simply be impossible to catch him off-guard or unprepared.

Second, how are they delivering these affects - something beyond spells? Look for things that might make him immune to things like critical hits or precision damage or the like. Suggestion: Fiery body. And look it's a transmutation spell he can actually use! (Assuming the pc's have dominant weapons.) Other body alteration spells may work better pending the pc's typical approach. Other advantages of fiery body - it gives him flight and the glaive's fireball ability heals him. Ditto on bathing in the lava.

If he doesn't have good defenses for a particular ability a pc uses, guess who goes to the top of the list? I kill you before you cripple me. Let me introduce you to my friend, his name is Clashing Rocks. Oh you're not dead yet? Have another. (See also, rod of quicken metamagic, greater) Okay, that might be over the top for your table. Use judiciously ;) My take overall was: he is an impossibly powerful wizard (he acts as a 21st level caster which literally breaks the rules of the game) - fighting him should be a "bring me my brown pants" moment even for 18th level pc's (who are extraordinary heroes in their own right.)


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

@Latrecis: Thank you for those suggestions! There is some spell research in my future, I can see. :)

I have absolutely no compunction about changing K's prepared spells; in fact, I will probably end up with two different lists of spells prepared (and related tactics), one for each group. (And I think that the actual adventure probably encourages that too.)

In the meantime, I will be practicing for this by preparing multiple high-level spellcasters in Runeforge ...

Silver Crusade

So we're finally there. My group found their way to the Eye of Avarice last session, and they'll be fighting Karzoug when we meet this weekend. Just one problem: They didn't enter the Eye of Avarice all at once.

Because of how they handled it, there's about a 3 round delay between the first half of the party entering the area and the second half of the party entering. Should I run 3 rounds of combat against Karzoug with just the front line tanks fighting Karzoug before the spellcasters arrive? They're actually beefy enough to survive it, and they can even survive will saves, if necessary (paladin saving throws are great, cavalier has Improved Iron Will).

And Karzoug would save some of his bigger area effect spells for the rest of the party to arrive - why hit just 3 people with Meteor Swarm when you know there are more coming soon?

Given the nature of the teleportation to get there, I could just fudge things to make the gap between arrivals shorter. On the one hand, I feel like I should punish them for screwing up. On the other hand, after 4 years of running the campaign, I want them to at least stand a reasonable chance of winning the final fight. If Karzoug kills them because they're only at half strength, then kills the second half of them when they arrive, then it'll be a really anti-climactic ending to the campaign.

I don't mind GMing a TPK if that's what ends up happening, as long as it's a long, tough fight, where they felt like they maybe had a chance. But this would just be anti-climactic.


I would play it as-is. Giving them a small break by figuring Karzoug would hold back his more potent AoE spells until that wave arrives is certainly reasonable, but that's as far as I'd go.

By this point in the adventure, Karzoug has gone from overconfident to genuinely concerned that the PC's are strong enough to take him down. Play time is over. He's going to hit them with everything he has and not worry about his reserves.

EDIT: You might find this thread helpful.

Grand Lodge

Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Fromper wrote:
So we're finally there.

I run the 3 rounds with part of the party, especially if you think the PCs that went in early are tough enough to take it. For one thing, actions have consequences (ie. don't split the party). For another, it'll provide a lot of dramatic tension.

I'd also have Karzoug relentlessly taunt the PCs that cam through first.

-Skeld


Fromper wrote:

So we're finally there. My group found their way to the Eye of Avarice last session, and they'll be fighting Karzoug when we meet this weekend. Just one problem: They didn't enter the Eye of Avarice all at once.

Because of how they handled it, there's about a 3 round delay between the first half of the party entering the area and the second half of the party entering. Should I run 3 rounds of combat against Karzoug with just the front line tanks fighting Karzoug before the spellcasters arrive? They're actually beefy enough to survive it, and they can even survive will saves, if necessary (paladin saving throws are great, cavalier has Improved Iron Will).

And Karzoug would save some of his bigger area effect spells for the rest of the party to arrive - why hit just 3 people with Meteor Swarm when you know there are more coming soon?

Given the nature of the teleportation to get there, I could just fudge things to make the gap between arrivals shorter. On the one hand, I feel like I should punish them for screwing up. On the other hand, after 4 years of running the campaign, I want them to at least stand a reasonable chance of winning the final fight. If Karzoug kills them because they're only at half strength, then kills the second half of them when they arrive, then it'll be a really anti-climactic ending to the campaign.

I don't mind GMing a TPK if that's what ends up happening, as long as it's a long, tough fight, where they felt like they maybe had a chance. But this would just be anti-climactic.

Handful of questions and random suggestions:

In your running of it, does Karzoug know they are separated by multiple rounds? In my view he might be more aggressive if he thinks there will be a longer delay before the others arrive. The group of three is almost certainly weaker than the whole group - he needs to start winnowing his enemies before they overwhelm him.

Does Karzoug have a plan for each of the pc's or at least the most dangerous ones? He can simply target the 3 that arrive early with the spells they were going to get anyway. Let's say he was going to hit the paladin with force cage and the cavalier with finger of death - he can simply do that and it doesn't matter whether the others are there because they weren't going to targeted by those things anyway. (Not that I would recommend those spells necessarily - I just used them as examples.)

Just how did the pc's end up separated by 3 rounds? Seems an odd outcome. Though one of the hidden dangers of the Eye shows up here - depending on how they pc's travel to the Eye, they have no idea what they are going to encounter when they arrive. I don't know that I could find serious fault with a group of players who assume the other side is an initial "room" perhaps with guards with Karzoug to be found in another space, deeper into a "complex." As opposed to one large space with all of Karzoug's minions and Karzoug himself ready to engage immediately. Runeforge, for example, is very safe for initial arrival and the pc's may have assumed that 3 rounds of separation wasn't a big deal. That's another suggestion - you could simply change the map so there is a small antechamber for arrival (say that is at the top of a large flight of stairs that leads down to the standard arrival platform) and the first group can simply wait there for the others in some safety.

Alternatively, Karzoug could try to immobilize them or block them - force cage, wall of force, prismatic sphere (wicked option) while he finishes his own buffing. Or he could hit them with dispels to eliminate the buffs on the pc's. Or for a more evil GM - mage's disjunction - from a certain point of view that's better for the pc's since only three take the hit while the remainder are spared.

Silver Crusade

Karzoug has a general idea that they're coming soon, but doesn't know specifics. Your plan of just targeting the first PCs to show up with the spells they would have gotten anyway is probably best. It's the tanks who will be there first, not the spellcasters, which makes this difficult.

As for how they got separated:

ROTR Anniversary Edition, page 359 wrote:


The anima focus also serves as the only route into the Eye of Avarice. Any character who steps onto the glowing platform atop the anima focus becomes overwhelmed by a sudden sense of vertigo and double vision, as the view of the Eye of Avarice appears to overlay his current field of view. The character cannot visually make out any figures inside the Eye of Avarice, but he can certainly sense the presence of both Karzoug and the soul lens inside. This disorientation lasts as long as the character remains atop the anima focus, and for 1 minute after he vacates the area, during which time everything appears blurry and indistinct to the character (incidentally providing concealment and a 50% miss chance to all creatures the character attacks). Only fire (such as the flames that surround the gold sphere below) remains crisp and in focus to the character while so affected (creatures with the fire subtype are not effectively concealed due to the disorientation)—the only real clue as to how to transition completely into the Eye of Avarice.

If, while under the disorienting effects of the Eye, a character touches flame to himself or reaches out to touch any of the flames licking up from the gold sphere, the fire immediately and instantly consumes him, even if he’s normally resistant to or immune to fire. To observers, it appears that the character has been burnt to nothingness in the span of an instant, when in fact the user has merely transported into the Eye of Avarice.

The group tanks (and friendly planetar) were poking around at the top of the giant gold sphere. They were worried about something teleporting in and attacking, so the spellcasters and archer "covered them" while hiding behind the pillars at the other end of the room, at ground level. When the paladin touched the flame on the sphere and disappeared, they realized he must have been transported somewhere, so they all rushed to join him. The cavalier and planetar went in almost instantly, but it took the other three PCs (and companion animal) three rounds to get up there.

So followup question: I'm mostly using Karzoug's spell list from the published adventure, with just a few tweaks here and there based on what he knows about the PCs. He has two each of Wish and Limited Wish prepared, along with a bonded item that lets him cast pretty much any wizard spell, other than his opposition schools (illusion and enchantment). Given the flexibility of these 5 spells, I'm curious about what you all had him use them for. Any suggestions?


In play he actually used Wish to resurrect the Rune Giant, who my pc's had immediately targeted for the purpose of turning the Storm Giants. I had in my optional action plan using it to heal himself and all of his allies. In retrospect, he should have focused more on healing himself and less on preserving his allies (which weren't very effective against the pc's of my group.) Though he hadn't taken much damage when he brought the Rune Giant back and the Storm Giants, while not very effective against the pc's (or Karzoug for that matter,) did contribute to the dragon's demise. Otherwise I considered them just extra spell slots (of the 8th or 6th level respectively.) I pretty much threw away the AP provided Karzoug memorization and ended up with only 1 wish and 1 limited wish. My pc's would have pasted Karzoug even faster if I'd stayed with the AP list.

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