Sins of the Saviors (GM Reference)


Rise of the Runelords

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I am looking at the Scribblers spell list in the AE, and am a little confused by a confused here.

Quickened Spiritual Weapon is marked as a 6th level spell, Spiritual weapon is a level 2 spell, Quicken adds 3, which makes level 5.
Quickened Divine Favor is marked as 5th level, Should be 4th
Quickened Shield of Faith is marked as 5th, should be 4th

The Extended spells he has look to be right, though.

What I am thinking is either I am missing something regarding Quicken, or he is using higher level spell slots to cast lower level spells. I think the second option is more likely.


PRD wrote:
A quickened spell uses up a spell slot four levels higher than the spell's actual level. Casting a quickened spell doesn't provoke an attack of opportunity.


Thanks, so it is poor reading skills :)


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook Subscriber

The group appears to be considering taking a Third Option concerning Freezemaw.

Diplomacy.

They want Freezemaw to let them through the portal in exchange for eventually getting Xin-Shalast as its own (after the PCs have killed everything and ransacked it).

So, my question is: how kind of penalties should there be in using Diplomacy on an ancient White Dragon who had to drink every single one of its healing potions and is still hurt?


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Sounds like a win-win for the dragon. :-)


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Tangent101 wrote:

The group appears to be considering taking a Third Option concerning Freezemaw.

Diplomacy.

They want Freezemaw to let them through the portal in exchange for eventually getting Xin-Shalast as its own (after the PCs have killed everything and ransacked it).

So, my question is: how kind of penalties should there be in using Diplomacy on an ancient White Dragon who had to drink every single one of its healing potions and is still hurt?

Since your previous posts on this topic were spoilered, I'll keep doing it.

Spoiler:

Let's start with the dragon's perspective. Freezemaw knows he attacked the pc's from significant tactical advantage - in the air and with surprise (assuming he followed AP tactics.) Further, he doesn't definitively know but should reasonably surmise that the pc's did not expect him. Ergo, he has lost strategic surprise - meaning this time the pc's were not prepared for him, next time they will be with cold resistance, fire magic, etc. You can argue whether the dragon's arrogance/sense of superiority trump his intellect but the dragon should realize the pc's will be more powerful next time and they almost killed him this time.

He should also assume they're coming back. He's revealed himself to them and his fame should identify him (as hinted in the AP) - another manifestation of arrogance. The dragon will likely assume that regardless of what they were originally after, the pc's will be after his hoard now (because to a dragon wealth is everything and he can't imagine anyone having a priority above stealing his hoard.)

So someone powerful is coming for his hoard. If the pc's approach him with appropriate obsequiousness it seems plausible he might be negotiated with. Let's check the math (and you'll want to double check, my grasp of diplomacy may be off.)

First I think it's fair to say he's hostile. His Charisma bonus is +3 so the DC is 28. I'll assume the pc's have a character who has diplomacy as a class skill. And let's assume 1 pt invested per level and a Charisma bonus of +3 (which might be conservative) - that gives the pc a +21 to the check (15+3+3). Hitting the DC 28 moves him to Unfriendly. Exceeding by 5 moves him to Indifferent, which is the minimum I would think would let them get to the portal without fighting. Note: per rule they can only make one check a day so they may have to make two trips and two successful checks - though the second has a DC of 23. Some other factors or items I might use - which of course I would not share with players:

failed check = attack
negotiator speaks in draconic = +2 to check
negotiator speaks in tongues = no modifier
negotiator speaks in other baser creature's language = -2 to check
negotiator is flattering = +2 to check
negotiator acknowledges the dragon's inherent superiority = +2 to check
each 5000gp in tribute = +2 to check
anyone looks at his hoard = -10 to check (example: I just look at it as we walk by to see what's in there.)
anyone touches his hoard = attack

Note the pc's and dragon may each negotiate from a flawed assumption: the portal is two-way. Each may assume the pc's will return through the portal, which is not true. So each may assume they can betray the other party later.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook Subscriber

Yeah. Um...

Spoiler:
the Sorceress has poured every point into Diplomacy and Intimidate, has two feats (Persuasive and Voice of the Sybil) that in essence give her an extra +7 to each, and because of the Imperious Sorcerer bloodline Diplomacy and Intimidate are class skills. And has a very very high Charisma. (I give all monsters +3 to each stat to compensate for high stats with the PCs.) Further, she has magic items that boost her Charisma skills further.

Her Diplomacy check is +32.

(Mind you, I gave Freezemaw two levels of Sorcerer to help. It did. Freezemaw seriously pissed off the group with his tactics, his use of Invisibility to escape and rebuff and then attack AGAIN, and then to escape a second time and flee.)

The group is impressed by Freezemaw. And I will admit. Part of me is wondering how much damage that dragon could do being an ally.

I'd say the difficulty of the negotiations gets an extra +10 because of helping attack Xin-Shalast.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook Subscriber

The end result? Freezemaw went from Hostile to Helpful with one roll (a 14 before modifiers).

That said, helpful means "you can go through the portal, but I want the first choice of two magic items when you return. And then we talk about Xin-Shalast."

And that they healed him a bit.

I must admit, while I'm a bit leery about having them with a dragon ally (even one as untrustworthy as a CE dragon), it was nice not to have them do three games of dragon-fighting in a row. And it was amusing roleplaying a Smaug-esque dragon who was playing both from a position of strength and of weakness. (They offered to make it fire-resistant armor. The offer was declined, because dragons ARE armored. ^^)

The Fiendish Mustard Jelly (which I tossed Advanced upon, along with +3 to each stat), proved... nasty. The truly amusing thing was when they realized it was not mindless... and then hit it with a Hideous Laughter. I had to pause for a moment as I tried to figure out if it would work or not, ultimately chose to let it, and had it heaving about. Given it had reduced the Eldritch Knight to 40 hit points (and could have killed him had I not been dividing my attacks) it was a good and tough fight. And while frustrating because of its resistances, a lot of fun at the same time.

Next game? Lust. Oh, that should be sooooo amusing, giving one of the characters is so very. very. lustful and has so many whore stories. ^^ I have to wonder if they'll go the path of negotiation again, or kill our lustful crew wholesale.


It's after the fact but you may want to make note for the future that you normally can't move a creature more than 2 steps with a Diplomacy check.

"A creature's attitude cannot be shifted more than two steps up in this way, although the GM can override this rule in some situations."


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook Subscriber

No doubt they'd continue with the Diplomacy after the fact. And it would become less and less difficult to change him toward helpful.

That said, thank you for the heads up. For all that I've GMed for a couple decades, I keep learning new things. ^^;;

That and the dragon did negotiate for two magic items of his choice for letting them into the Runeforge and some extra healing. And stated "we'll talk about Xin-Shalast when you return."

Silver Crusade

So here's a silly question: What exactly is Karzoug looking for in Runeforge? I could swear this was mentioned in the book somewhere (anniversary edition), but I can't find it now.

Part of my problem is that my group is so slow that I'll read a section of the adventure, and then forget details before we finally get around to playing that section months later. I'm re-reading Sins of the Saviors now, but I can't find that particular detail. It's one of the possible questions that my group is considering asking via Divination before they go into Runeforge. Of course, I'll probably just give them a vague non-answer anyway, since there's nothing really useful they can find out with that question, but it would be nice to have the true answer to base it on.


Has anyone thought about giving Jordimandus some of the feats that boost Summon Monster (e.g. Augment Summonings, Expanded Summon Monster, Superior Summoning)? Because it seems strange to me that a conjuration focused wizard with a battle strategy primarily focused on summoning monsters doesn't even have Augment Summoning.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook Subscriber

@Fromper: Karzoug isn't looking for anything in the Runeforge. He just wants to find its location so when he breaks free, his people can seize it and anything of use within it.

It is the PCs that need the Runeforge to craft weapons of power that will provide them with protections against Karzoug's Transmutation magics and an extra benefit to fight them.

Silver Crusade

Tangent101 wrote:

@Fromper: Karzoug isn't looking for anything in the Runeforge. He just wants to find its location so when he breaks free, his people can seize it and anything of use within it.

It is the PCs that need the Runeforge to craft weapons of power that will provide them with protections against Karzoug's Transmutation magics and an extra benefit to fight them.

I know they need to make a weapon to beat him. I just couldn't remember if he had a specific purpose in seeking it out, or just the general "What power can I get from this?"

As I said, this was a potential Divination question, so I'm just trying to be over-prepared.


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Fromper wrote:
Tangent101 wrote:

@Fromper: Karzoug isn't looking for anything in the Runeforge. He just wants to find its location so when he breaks free, his people can seize it and anything of use within it.

It is the PCs that need the Runeforge to craft weapons of power that will provide them with protections against Karzoug's Transmutation magics and an extra benefit to fight them.

I know they need to make a weapon to beat him. I just couldn't remember if he had a specific purpose in seeking it out, or just the general "What power can I get from this?"

As I said, this was a potential Divination question, so I'm just trying to be over-prepared.

The only reference I could find was early in Book 4 (p. 186 AE) - "The runelord did not divulge to Mokmurian details beyond hints that Xaliasa had something to do with a place called “Runeforge.” Karzoug did make clear, however, that Mokmurian should reduce the site to nothing more than dust and ashes."

My take is that Karzoug doesn't need to know where Runeforge is, he (along with the other Runelords) built it. And now that the other Runelords are gone, the balance of power that kept him out is gone. What he's after is keeping everyone else out. Somehow, before it all fell apart, Karzoug learned that Xaliasa had discovered the path to Runeforge. He wants to keep anyone else from learning it. Why? Because his enemies might learn about/acquire dominant weapons and they might learn about the Eye of Avarice. This last bit is an inference only - the Sins of the Saviors doesn't provide any information about the Eye to be found in Runeforge (that I recall) but the AP does call out that Runeforge is where all the Runelords' preservation methods were developed and Karzoug can't know what information or records may be left behind.


wertyou2 wrote:
Has anyone thought about giving Jordimandus some of the feats that boost Summon Monster (e.g. Augment Summonings, Expanded Summon Monster, Superior Summoning)? Because it seems strange to me that a conjuration focused wizard with a battle strategy primarily focused on summoning monsters doesn't even have Augment Summoning.

Just a note: other than Augment Summoning, the other feats were published after the Core Rulebook. Curiously, Augment Summoning was a 3.5 feat (for which RotRL was originally published) so not sure why he doesn't have that one...

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion Subscriber
Latrecis wrote:
wertyou2 wrote:
Has anyone thought about giving Jordimandus some of the feats that boost Summon Monster (e.g. Augment Summonings, Expanded Summon Monster, Superior Summoning)? Because it seems strange to me that a conjuration focused wizard with a battle strategy primarily focused on summoning monsters doesn't even have Augment Summoning.
Just a note: other than Augment Summoning, the other feats were published after the Core Rulebook. Curiously, Augment Summoning was a 3.5 feat (for which RotRL was originally published) so not sure why he doesn't have that one...

Note that Jordimandus does not appear in the original version - he's exclusive to the AE.

As for why he doesn't have Augment Summoning, hard to say. It could just be an oversight. It may have been intentional. It keeps his power level down, which can be a goal with the APs; additionally, Augment Summoning adds work by requiring altered statblocks for monsters, whereas his summons can come right out of a Bestiary (reducing the potential workload for GMs). Maybe it was deemed unnecessary. His tactics imply that his summons are just there to be a wall; while Augment Summoning adds some hp, it might not have been a high priority.

I believe James Jacobs wrote this encounter specifically for the AE; you could try asking him. ^_^


Kalindlara wrote:
Latrecis wrote:
wertyou2 wrote:
Has anyone thought about giving Jordimandus some of the feats that boost Summon Monster (e.g. Augment Summonings, Expanded Summon Monster, Superior Summoning)? Because it seems strange to me that a conjuration focused wizard with a battle strategy primarily focused on summoning monsters doesn't even have Augment Summoning.
Just a note: other than Augment Summoning, the other feats were published after the Core Rulebook. Curiously, Augment Summoning was a 3.5 feat (for which RotRL was originally published) so not sure why he doesn't have that one...

Note that Jordimandus does not appear in the original version - he's exclusive to the AE.

As for why he doesn't have Augment Summoning, hard to say. It could just be an oversight. It may have been intentional. It keeps his power level down, which can be a goal with the APs; additionally, Augment Summoning adds work by requiring altered statblocks for monsters, whereas his summons can come right out of a Bestiary (reducing the potential workload for GMs). Maybe it was deemed unnecessary. His tactics imply that his summons are just there to be a wall; while Augment Summoning adds some hp, it might not have been a high priority.

I believe James Jacobs wrote this encounter specifically for the AE; you could try asking him. ^_^

But...he's like...James Jacobs and stuff. He's got James Jacobs-y things to do.


Latrecis wrote:
Fromper wrote:
Tangent101 wrote:

@Fromper: Karzoug isn't looking for anything in the Runeforge. He just wants to find its location so when he breaks free, his people can seize it and anything of use within it.

It is the PCs that need the Runeforge to craft weapons of power that will provide them with protections against Karzoug's Transmutation magics and an extra benefit to fight them.

I know they need to make a weapon to beat him. I just couldn't remember if he had a specific purpose in seeking it out, or just the general "What power can I get from this?"

As I said, this was a potential Divination question, so I'm just trying to be over-prepared.

The only reference I could find was early in Book 4 (p. 186 AE) - "The runelord did not divulge to Mokmurian details beyond hints that Xaliasa had something to do with a place called “Runeforge.” Karzoug did make clear, however, that Mokmurian should reduce the site to nothing more than dust and ashes."

My take is that Karzoug doesn't need to know where Runeforge is, he (along with the other Runelords) built it. And now that the other Runelords are gone, the balance of power that kept him out is gone. What he's after is keeping everyone else out. Somehow, before it all fell apart, Karzoug learned that Xaliasa had discovered the path to Runeforge. He wants to keep anyone else from learning it. Why? Because his enemies might learn about/acquire dominant weapons and they might learn about the Eye of Avarice. This last bit is an inference only - the Sins of the Saviors doesn't provide any information about the Eye to be found in Runeforge (that I recall) but the AP does call out that Runeforge is where all the Runelords' preservation methods were developed and Karzoug can't know what information or records may be left behind.

I don't have the book in front of me, but I'm pretty sure the books in the Mithral Mage's library include some details about how Karzoug survived Earthfall.

But Latrecis is correct. Karzoug doesn't want to find Runeforge, he wants to prevent the PCs (or anyone else who might oppose him) from gaining access to it, as it would both give them access to knowledge about him (as well as the other Runelords) and a way to create Dominant Weapons.

Silver Crusade

Yeah, that's pretty much what I told them. They did the divinations in last night's session. I'll post the rhyming answer I gave them when I get home and have my notes in front of me. But I basically said Karzoug was just looking for Runeforge for more power in general, and to make sure his enemies hadn't found it.

They intentionally teleported to Rimeskull in the morning, knowing that something special happens at dusk. After examining the head stones, they decided to go check out the cave, despite Scribbler's rhyme saying they should get the keys first. So I had fun with the elementals using Awesome Blow to throw them off the stairs. It was an easy enough fight, but the elementals did manage to throw every party member except the winged oracle off the stairs for 30 feet of falling damage (on top of the normal slam damage).

So here's the question: Would that fight wake the white dragon? It's supposed to be the extremely loud and unfamiliar sound of the stone heads' magic being activated that wakes him. I'm not sure if the sounds of a relatively normal fight outside the cave would be enough to do it.

That's where we left off last night, so I have time to decide. From the comments as they were leaving, I think they may have decided that climbing the stairs without the keys was a mistake. They seem to think that doing things in the right order would have prevented the elemental attack, which is ironic given that they're wrong, but the sihedron medallions they could have used for that are in one of their handy haversacks. So they might back down and not continue to the cave immediately.


I would assume the fight would probably wake up Freezemaw, but with it happening right outside his front door, he'd probably hole up somewhere hidden in his lair (probably near the icy slide of doom so he can attack any intruders while they're trying to save their companions from slipping off the cliff) rather than emerge directly into the invaders without knowing what he's up against.

If the party turns back around and goes to get the keys, then the noise would definitely get his attention and he'd come up to investigate as per his tactics in the AP.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook Subscriber

Roll for a Perception check, factoring in the distance and the fact the dragon is sleeping.

Silver Crusade

CFet wrote:

Under Arkryst's tactics it indicates that he

"makes either a flyby tail slap or a bite so that he can snatch an opponent, carry it aloft, breathe on it, and drop it from at least 200 feet up onto the rocks below"

If he doesn't have the feat snatch, how was he intended to accomplish this?

EDIT: It appears that this text was a remnant of moving to the anniversary edition as the original stat block indicates he has the feat snatch.

Could a dev verify if he is indeed still intended to have Snatch?

Just came here wondering the same thing. I've decided to just trade out feats, so that his tactics stay intact. It's not like he was going to use Improved Sunder anyway. Why would a dragon even want that? They would never destroy their loot!

Since it says he attacks random opponents, I'm going to roll randomly and have him do this on a fly by bite attack. It'll be fun to see what happens if he grabs the flame oracle that can activate flaming wings.


I did exactly this. The wizard was snatched up and ONE POINT of initiative ahead of the cold breath/drop into the lake combo when he managed to teleport (Getaway, actually) out.

Of course, he went to Magnimar and left the rest of the party there while he went shopping...


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook Subscriber

My group is currently discussing building a steam-powered "device" for Mistress Delvahine.

This is taking as long as combat, mind you. ^^;;


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I did some searching but did not find much so any insight or reference would be helpful...

How does the Revelation Quill work? Specifically how does the contact other plane function work?

"Once per week, the user may use the quill in the same way to cast contact other plane instead, asking up to 10 questions of the mysterious intellect that guides the revelation quill."

Does the user have to be a caster? With Contact Other Plane on their spell list?

Is the user subject to the risks of Contact Other Plane? (Int and Cha fall to 8 and loss of arcane spell casting) Can they just have the fighter use the quill; the fighter who wouldn't care about the ability change or loss of spell casting abilities he doesn't have?

I assume the power behind the Quill is the Peacock Spirit - what outer plane level is the Peacock Spirit? According to the Core Rulebook that sets the DC for avoiding consequences, the duration of the consequences and the accuracy of the answers.


Latrecis wrote:

I did some searching but did not find much so any insight or reference would be helpful...

How does the Revelation Quill work? Specifically how does the contact other plane function work?

"Once per week, the user may use the quill in the same way to cast contact other plane instead, asking up to 10 questions of the mysterious intellect that guides the revelation quill."

Does the user have to be a caster? With Contact Other Plane on their spell list?

Is the user subject to the risks of Contact Other Plane? (Int and Cha fall to 8 and loss of arcane spell casting) Can they just have the fighter use the quill; the fighter who wouldn't care about the ability change or loss of spell casting abilities he doesn't have?

I assume the power behind the Quill is the Peacock Spirit - what outer plane level is the Peacock Spirit? According to the Core Rulebook that sets the DC for avoiding consequences, the duration of the consequences and the accuracy of the answers.

It's not a spell activation/trigger item, so I wouldn't think the user has to be a caster. The Peacock Spirit has never been well defined, but it seems that it was one of the most powerful deities of Thassilonian faith (to the point of being worshiped by one of the Runelords), so it'd make sense to list it as "Outer Plane, major deity." Just my 2 cents though.

Silver Crusade

But I thought the Peacock Spirit was dead.


Fromper wrote:
But I thought the Peacock Spirit was dead.

I can only go by the description of the item itself (AE p.422): "The few revelation quills that remain today continue to function, drawing their revelations, it is said, from the Peacock Spirit itself."

The black monk and his harpy minions also seem to draw power from the Peacock Spirit. I can't recall them off hand but I think there are other references in the AP to the Peacock Spirit and its surviving influence.

The god is no longer widely worshipped (worshipped at all?) on Golarion but I don't know that means it's dead...

Silver Crusade

Just because a god is dead, it doesn't mean the magic they created before their death doesn't live on.

I just double checked, and the Peacock Spirit is listed in the "dead deities" section of Inner Sea Gods.


Geralt_Bialy_Wilk wrote:

Got a question about Runeforged Weapons. There's that part about "A wielder who is considered sinful or virtuous with the same type of sin/virtue as a runeforged weapon he wields[..]".

How should I connect the 7 runforged enchantments with 7 sins? There are two sin components to each weapons - so every weapon is actually two types of sin, or does the weapon gives a bonus to character that is sinful with a quality the weapon actually oppose (which would be silly...)?

Can we please get an answer to this question?

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Fromper wrote:

Just because a god is dead, it doesn't mean the magic they created before their death doesn't live on.

I just double checked, and the Peacock Spirit is listed in the "dead deities" section of Inner Sea Gods.

Just what Xanderghul would want you to believe...


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook Subscriber

I would assume that a person who had the Lust vice (or Love virtue), and a person who has the Pride vice (or Humility virtue) would count as having the attribute needed for the weapon in question.

Of course, you could always go full ball and instead have it work for someone who is Generous. ;)


I'm running this chapter to give the normal DM a break from running the campaign, and we just finished Chapter 4. While it may turn out different in our next session seeing as we were rushing to finish up when it happened, as of right now Mokmurian is alive and is not going to be fought by us (and I'm not saying that because he D. Doored, I'm saying it because the DM sent me the altered statblock with the note "here's his statblock in case you want to throw him at the party during your chapter). From the cursory reading I've done of the campaign so far to get myself up to speed on the plot, it seems like he was supposed to die for both pacing and plot reasons (although the plot reasons I can easily work around; as far as I know it doesn't extend much past "he was the last soul needed".)

The scene where the heroes finally get a personal glimpse of Karzoug (even if through Mokmurian) makes his death more meaningful than just "another villain," seeing as he hasn't been encountered nor had much known presence until this chapter, as well as giving a cool semi-climax to the first four chapters. Plus, it ties into the things Karzoug says when he animates the statue, but that last part is fairly inconsequential seeing as I can just change what he says.

Because of this, I'm thinking on how I can use him throughout Chapter 5. From what I can gather (correct me if I'm wrong) he was taking stones from the Hellstorm Flumes so he could use Stone Tell to find out where The Scribbler, and by extension Runeforge is. I don't see why he would stop in this quest, so when the party returns to Sandpoint (either due to a sending from Father Zantus or of their own volition) I'm thinking about Mokmurian having recently arrived there as well, and with a retinue of stone giants and Lamias, If I could figure out the timing it'd be cool (I think) to have the fight climax with the formation of the sinkhole (maybe even during the fight if I want to complicate things). For this to work, I'd probably need a reason for Mokmurian to be above ground instead of taking the tunnels along the beach to his destination of Xaliasa since there's no where to really fight a bunch of large sized creatures below ground that isn't part of the sinkhole. Past that, I'm having trouble thinking of where else I'd want to put him in the chapter save for having him trail the party into Runeforge and then making an alliance with one of the denizens (which admittedly does have it's possibilities).

The problem with putting him in Sandpoint as the first fight of this chapter is that it feels like a weird bump in pacing to go from final fight, to resting/researching, to all of a sudden "final" fight again. However, if I put him later I feel like that might have it's own problems with how it interacts with the timing of when they fight the Karzoug statue (especially considering the modular order they can tackle Runeforge in). I could just leave him out and let the regular DM utilize him in Chapter 6, but that just feels like the fight will lose it's "oomph" by then (if that makes any sense).

Thoughts? Suggestions?


I'd say it depends on how much was done around Jorgenfist. If they went in and left relatively unnoticed, then he would likely continue or even accelerate his plans, marching his giant army down into the lowlands unless someone were to stop him.

Otherwise, if his army was routed somehow and he managed to escape:
Mokmo is a transmutation specialist, who could use spells like Alter Self or Polymorph to infiltrate Sandpoint/the sinkhole.

Further, it could be possible that he found the location to Runeforge through some other means, and is found there studying the stones, possibly making new friends on the way.
In either of these cases, you may want to consider leveling him a bit before throwing him at the party.

Akso, IIRC, it wasn't necessarily his soul that caused the boom, just the many souls sent to their deaths by the PCs.


They killed almost everything in Jorgenfist. The only things still alive are the redcaps, Conna, and a few stone giants. Most of the surrounding camps don't exist anymore either, due to roleplaying, stealth, dominate person, etc.

I do like the infiltration idea, I didn't even think about that.

Problem is that then there's a dragon and a Mokmurian/allies to deal with. Although if he made his way into Runeforge along with the dragon (perhaps he enchanted it with the help of a lamia? It'd have to be a fairly powerful one to successfully control an ancient dragon, like a matriarch or something.) it would probably lead to some fun possibilities. At the very least I could see the party's response to an abandoned dragon's lair. The question still is where in Runeforge I'd put them.

If I bring him back, do you think I should still have Karzoug possess him upon death?


Did the pc's encounter Mokmurian? Do they even know he exists? How did they take out everything in and around Jorgenfist but not the BBEG?

Karzoug essentially kills Mokmurian (in the scripted ending) because the stone giant failed. So it's not clear why he wouldn't do that anyway - the loss of Jorgenfist and the giant army is a setback regardless of how many greedy souls may have powered the runewell. Karzoug strikes me as not particularly tolerant of failure.

The death scene is more important than you seem to think - how else can the pc's learn about Karzoug? Until that moment everything that has happened could be blamed on Mokmurian not a rising Runelord. Without the motivation of Karzoug why would the pc's be all that focused on Runeforge? They don't need to go there to defeat Mokmurian (assuming they know who he is.)

How could Mokmurian get to Sandpoint before the pc's? What have the pc's been up to instead?

Keep in mind - 1) as scripted it's impossible to find Runeforge without the Scribbler. There's no research Mokmurian could perform to find it; and 2) Karzoug has no interest in having Mokmurian look for it - Karzoug already knows how to get there - he (along with the other Runelords) built it! He didn't want Mokmurian looking for it, he wanted Mokmurian looking for the Scribbler to prevent anyone else from finding it.

So it seems to me Karzoug would either recall Mokmurian to Xin Shalast (making him available in Book 6) or send him off to take out the Scribbler. I'd suggest having him arrive in Sandpoint after the pc's enter the sink hole. He sneaks past the guards or forces his way in - Hemlock and his crew certainly can't hold him off. He then starts unleashing more chaos (if that's possible) in Lamashtu's temple. He tries to kill the Scribbler first and the pc's second (but he doesn't pass up a good shot if there is one.) You can even use the Karzoug death scene if/when he dies. I'd also avoid giving him minions - a) makes the combat even harder and b) having him solo calls out his desperation - all his allies at Jorgenfist are lost and if he doesn't succeed here, Karzoug is going to take him out.


We did encounter Mokmurian, we just didn't kill him. To reiterate, someone else DM'd the first 4 chapters of the campaign, I'm just doing it for this chapter. Up until this point I've been a player. The previous DM just had Mokmurian teleport away (the spell list and statblock was changed to account for an increased party size, I don't think he normally has teleport, only dimensional door) when he was close to dying. It wasn't my decision, but if I was DMing the fight I would have let him die so the death scene would have played out as intended.

The good news is that we already know that he's raising Karzoug, thanks to my witch dominating and questioning Lokansir, so at least it's not required to have the death scene for the plot to progress.

We finished the last session right as Mokmurian teleported away, so it's yet to be seen what the party does now. They might stick around for research, they might pop on down to Sandpoint, I honestly don't know at this stage in the game. I'm just trying to come up with some possible ideas.

I'd rather have him show up and die now as opposed to in book 6 to keep the death scene near to where it's supposed to be in the story, so I might go with your idea and have him show up in the temple. As to him bringing allies, we're in an 8 man party, and it took one full round from the hasted bloodrager before he decided to teleport away, so if he's alone he'll have to show up during the fight with The Scribbler or with the Glabrezu (or the one with both of them, depending on how that dungeon plays out). Otherwise, he's mincemeat in such a small dungeon with no reinforcements (this is partially why I was thinking about having the fight aboveground in Sandpoint). It probably wasn't going to be much, really only a stone giant or two from Jorgenfist that wasn't killed.


I have a question why in the updated version did they change the type of demon in the Hall of Testing away from the Shemhazian Demon to a Glabrezu Demon?


Joey Virtue wrote:
I have a question why in the updated version did they change the type of demon in the Hall of Testing away from the Shemhazian Demon to a Glabrezu Demon?

Considering the the 3 CR difference, perhaps they felt the Shemhazian was too difficult an encounter there.

For my own game (though this 5E, so CRs and the meanings of CRs are different) I replaced the Glabrezu in the Hall of Testing with a pair of Erinyes for my 6 PC group. I didn't want to open and end the chapter with a similar fight (ie Azlanti Human Spellcaster with Glabrezu backup.)


Constant True Sight and Dispel Magic at will is my guess. He's a non-combatant "referree" to make sure it's a fair fight!

Silver Crusade

Couple of Runeforge questions:

1. Has any worked out gp values for the spellbooks they'll find? My group won't use them (no wizards), so I just need to know what they're worth when the group sells them. If I have to spend time doing the math myself, I will, but I was hoping someone else may already have done it.

2. About the sins and virtues, it says that any PC aligned with a sin gets a bonus in that area and penalties in the two opposing areas. I have two PCs that I've decided aren't sinful enough to be tied to a sin, but they have virtues that I'd associate them with. Should I just give them the virtue penalty in the one area tied to the sin that's opposite of their virtue?


Fromper wrote:

Couple of Runeforge questions:

1. Has any worked out gp values for the spellbooks they'll find? My group won't use them (no wizards), so I just need to know what they're worth when the group sells them. If I have to spend time doing the math myself, I will, but I was hoping someone else may already have done it.

2. About the sins and virtues, it says that any PC aligned with a sin gets a bonus in that area and penalties in the two opposing areas. I have two PCs that I've decided aren't sinful enough to be tied to a sin, but they have virtues that I'd associate them with. Should I just give them the virtue penalty in the one area tied to the sin that's opposite of their virtue?

For #1, I found this thread:

Spellbooks

For #2, my understanding is that only sinful natures matter: "In Runeforge, only a character’s most sinful aspect matters—if she has 5 or more points in multiple sins, the one in which she has the most points is the one that matters for determining bonuses and penalties in that dungeon." AE, p. 416. So if a character has fewer than 5 sin points all the sins (which could include virtue points for some) he/she takes no penalties in any area.

Now if you wanted to get creative, you could assume it's the distance from zero that matters. In this interpretation, Thassilonian magic is indifferent to whether you are sinful or virtuous - the Runelords just happened to fall to sin (perhaps because it's easier?) So you could rule that whether they have more than 5 sin points or more than 5 virtue points in a particular characteristic, they take the penalty in the opposed areas.

Or you could go the way you suggested - sin is good, virtue is bad. So if you have more than 5 points in a particular virtue, you take the penalty in the area of the associated sin.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook Subscriber

I'd been thinking about this.

My thought is that the Runeforged weapons work equally well for someone who is Sinful or who is Virtuous. Sin Magic started out as Virtue Magic. So the Runeforge will see someone who is Virtuous as having the same type of "magic" aspect as someone who is Sinful. Both in beneficial and in baneful ways.


Combination Lock for the Vaults of Greed

My players are on the cusp of entering Runeforge, and I'm changing things up a little. I want to replace the trap and secret door at the end of the hall leading from the Runeforge hub to the Vaults of Greed. I want to put a heavy door right at the end of the hall with a puzzle/riddle-based combination lock, but I can't seem to get my ideas for this to coalesce.

I want to stay away from a language-based riddle, given that any script on the door will be in Thassilonian, not English. And I don't want this puzzle to be a one-roll task. I want to get the players thinking together to solve it.

Here's a list of things I've been thinking of including:

Spoiler:

1. Some sort of presentation of a selection of precious metals, such as on a dial, or centered in a circle around a lever like a clock.

2. Something to do with the theme of transmutation, such as relates to the studies of alchemy done during various periods of Earth history.

3. Somehow work in the process of literally turning lead into gold, with a potentially unusual interpretation of the word "turn," such as turning a dial.

4. Somehow put this together in such a way that there is an obvious solution (such as pressing buttons for various precious metals in order of value), which triggers a trap; A subtle but still logical solution (such as matching a precious metal with its alchemical symbol), which triggers a different trap; and a Moon Logic solution of some kind (such as replacing lead with gold) which actually unlocks the door.

I've tried working out a way to use the Latin names for the common metals, such as Aurum for gold, Plumbum for lead, and so forth, as well as using alchemical symbols for the metals, but I've yet to come up with a sensible means of relating them to one another.

I've even tried using the element symbols to spell out different words such as "SHALAST" or "ALCHEMY" and so forth, but I'm afraid my brain isn't up to the challenge.

Any suggestions?

Silver Crusade

Thanks for the responses to my questions. That link to the spellbook thread is great. My PCs don't need the spellbooks, so I just need to know the values for loot purposes, so having something like that saves me time on figuring that out.

I think for my sin-less PCs, I'll just have them not get any benefit or penalty in any area of Runeforge. Neither of them is particularly focused on any one type of virtue, though they were bordering on zeal, but it's probably not worth worrying about. The other 3 party members are sinful enough to keep things interesting - they hit two different sins (pride and wrath), but that means all three of them have sloth (conjuration) as an opposition sin, which should make that area interesting.

Silver Crusade

Another Runeforge question.

I'm prepping the Pride area, and it seems to me that the Mirrors of Opposition could be stupidly easy to beat if the PCs make a knowledge: arcana check to know what they are. They have hardness 1, 5 HP, and breaking them eliminates the PC clones.

So is there any reason the party archer couldn't simply fire two arrows in each direction using Rapid Shot and Deadly Aim and end the fight in the first round as long as he doesn't roll natural 1s to hit on 3 out of his 4 shots?


Hmmm, since the mirror item description says that destroying the mirrors ends the duplicates, that's a strategy that would work. IF the ranger knows which mirror to shoot. The description of the I1 hallway says it's lined floor to ceiling with mirrors. The AP map shows the DM where the magical ones are located, but that doesn't mean it's obvious to the pc's.

Someone with detect magic running could spot them and point them out. Note: it's not a knowledge: arcana check, it's a Spellcraft check to id a magic item and its properties (DC 30 - 15 + caster level of 15 = 30) And it takes 3 rounds to do it. (Spellcraft Unchained modifies that time with sufficient ranks.)

I'd also rule that unless someone makes that Spellcraft check, they have no idea the hardness and hp are low and the "get rid of duplicates" feature even even exists. Unless of course someone in the party has actually made one or otherwise has deep familiarity with such an item (DM discretion how a player would demonstrate such background.)

Silver Crusade

I just assumed the duplicates would "walk out" of the mirrors, so it would be obvious where they came from.

As for spellcraft vs knowledge (arcana), it's a spellcraft check to identify a magic item while casting Detect Magic. But just knowing about magic, ie knowing that Mirrors of Opposition exist and this is what they do, would usually just be a knowledge check. That doesn't confirm that these are necessarily that specific type of item, but it's a reasonable guess.


Fromper wrote:

I just assumed the duplicates would "walk out" of the mirrors, so it would be obvious where they came from.

As for spellcraft vs knowledge (arcana), it's a spellcraft check to identify a magic item while casting Detect Magic. But just knowing about magic, ie knowing that Mirrors of Opposition exist and this is what they do, would usually just be a knowledge check. That doesn't confirm that these are necessarily that specific type of item, but it's a reasonable guess.

Well...

Knowledge Arcana: "Arcana (ancient mysteries, magic traditions, arcane symbols, constructs, dragons, magical beasts)" Core Rulebook, p.99

Spellcraft: "Spellcraft is used whenever your knowledge and skill of the technical art of casting a spell or crafting a magic item comes into question. This skill is also used to identify the properties of magic items in your possession through the use of spells such as detect magic and identify." Core Rulebook, p. 106.

I hate being some crazy rules-lawyer guy but I don't see any reference to magic items in Knowledge Arcana but see Spellcraft explicitly tied to magic item properties.

Using knowledge-arcana to know generally that a thing like a mirror of opposition exists seems fine but that's not what is needed to suggest or inform the tactic you suggested. To know to do that involves knowing that they are fragile and that destroying them makes the duplicates go away. That knowledge seems very specific to the details of exactly how the mirrors work. (Of course, default player behavior - when in doubt, smash - might suffice.)

Exactly how the images appear is not defined in the item description or AP, so you can have them emerge visibly from the mirrors. I'm kind of a <rhymes with trick> DM, so I'll likely have the images just appear, perhaps in a position notably inconvenient for the targeted pc. My justification for this approach is that these are 92000 gp magic items with the explicit purpose to harm the target. That should be hard to counter, not easy.

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