Dislikers of science fiction in Pathfinder beware - there are aficionados in the ranks! I personally love a little Sci-Fi in the background, and was heartened by James Sutters' confessional - how about you?
My home brewed adventures generally include some science fiction twist - as a 'believable' explanation for magic, including some Asimov-style transducing-lobes beneath those pointy-ears. I have even made spells require 'DUST' to function, the metallic powder of dying stars that has a colour with no name. I usually suggest that Humans were recent arrivals from some crashed ship, and hint that they were also the original terraformers and experimenters responsible for all the biodiversity and magic-wielding races on the planet today. How else can humans interbreed with Orcs and Elves?
But the major point is to make it a background element - something that can just as easily be replaced by the more arcane and mysterious for those who don't like it. A rocket ship of wood and stone, covered with runes and powered by eldritch fire is only a wizard's tower until a PC activates it and a DM likes the idea of a short flight. So while I'm excited about James’ new module and Golarion's Moon - I hope the Sci-Fi remains magically blended and creatively optional. You know what I mean?
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The thing I liked the most about Gene Wolfe's "Book of the New Sun" was it's blend of science and magic. While I'm not sure do I want any science fiction in my D&D game, I think that, in right and careful dosage, this can make game interesting. While I'm not really into idea of human space colonist or genetically produced humanoid variations, I liked your ideas of wizard's tower/rocket and weird magical dust. :-)
Gene Wolfe's "Book of the New Sun"Ah, my favorite fiction of all time. I think that it was ALL science, but the story was told from the viewpoint of someone that didn't know what he was looking at. But I could be wrong. Either way, I'm adding my vote for more science.
I've read "The Wizard Knight" by Gene Wolfe and quite enjoyed it. Is "Book of the New Sun" superior to this?
I hate to seem obtuse, but where is there information about a new module by James about Golarion's moon? This is news to me. :-(
And I also hope they handle this very delicately. While I liked Spelljammer, I definitely do not like Sci Fi in my Fantasy.* They are two great tastes that do not taste great together. Like, say, pizza and mint chocolate chip ice cream.
*Spelljammer involved ships in space, granted, but there was no attempt at robots or laser beams, no distopian society, no dungeonpunk chic, not even an attempt at advanced technology. It was all magic. And the ships looked like sailing ships (for the most part).
I hate to seem obtuse, but where is there information about a new module by James about Golarion's moon? This is news to me. :-(
And I also hope they handle this very delicately. While I liked Spelljammer, I definitely do not like Sci Fi in my Fantasy.* They are two great tastes that do not taste great together. Like, say, pizza and mint chocolate chip ice cream.
*Spelljammer involved ships in space, granted, but there was no attempt at robots or laser beams, no distopian society, no dungeonpunk chic, not even an attempt at advanced technology. It was all magic. And the ships looks like sailing ships (for the most part).
It was mentioned toward the end of yesterday's blog entry.
It was mentioned toward the end of yesterday's blog entry.
Ahh, thank you!
While I liked Spelljammer, I definitely do not like Sci Fi in my Fantasy.Rest assured, there are six editors and designers in Paizo's R&D who want to keep Golarion a fantasy world. ;)
If the total number of editor's and designers in Paizo R&D is seven or higher . . . ::Evil eye::
Thanks for the response, guys. I always find this an interesting topic for discussion! My own inspiration came from a graphic novel called Thorgal by Rasinski and Van Hamme- regrettably only in French and Dutch. Great art and a wonderful Medieval world full of Norse myth and a boy who happens to have fallen to earth. Less regretably, I speak a little of both and grew up in Quebec, the only part in North America, until recently to my knowledge, where European graphic novels were popular.
And the balance should be about right: One Sci-Fi enthusiast in a Group of Seven!
Cheers
If the total number of editor's and designers in Paizo R&D is seven or higher . . . ::Evil eye::Seven there are.
Jason Bulmahn, James Jacobs, Mike McArtor, Erik Mona, F. Wesley Schneider, James Lafond Sutter, and Jeremy Walker.
The Magnificent Seven, you might call us. ;D
Or the Seven Runelords of Sin eh? ;-)
RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32
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Or the Seven Runelords of Sin eh? ;-)
If the total number of editor's and designers in Paizo R&D is seven or higher . . . ::Evil eye::Seven there are.
Jason Bulmahn, James Jacobs, Mike McArtor, Erik Mona, F. Wesley Schneider, James Lafond Sutter, and Jeremy Walker.
The Magnificent Seven, you might call us. ;D
Shouldn't have brought that up, now... which one's the Runelord of Lust?
I say Mike "McLovin'" McArtor, that sexy beast ;P
I personally love a little Sci-Fi in the background, and was heartened by James Sutters' confessional - how about you?
I'm not too big on the sci-fi angle if it's truly hard sci-fi. Sci-fantasy is okay, but only in small measures. For instance, I am excited to see that they've got plans for Golarion's moon. I've always thought that a magical gateway from a medieval fantasy world that projects onto a habitable moon would make for a nice extension into a new landscape for adventurers to explore. But if it's Spelljammer with ships-in-SPAAAAACE...then, no. I wouldn't be a fan of that. Same for magical lightrail systems or other industrialized magical inventions. That's why I'm also tentative and anxious about the amount of gunpowder that might get introduced down the road, too.
So, to repeat, if the campaign setting can give me decent magical explanations for why the moon is within reach...say, something like a magical Stargate or gates in general...then I'm in. Anything too techy or sci-fi beyond that...and I'm out...or I'm cutting it out to replace with something more to my liking.
Just my two-cents,
--Neil
Seven there are.
Jason Bulmahn, James Jacobs, Mike McArtor, Erik Mona, F. Wesley Schneider, James Lafond Sutter, and Jeremy Walker.
Just for the sake of avoiding confusion, my we call you John Mike Mcartor, Jeffrey Erik Mona, and J. F. Wesley Schneider?
Contributor
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I'm not too big on the sci-fi angle if it's truly hard sci-fi. Sci-fantasy is okay, but only in small measures. For instance, I am excited to see that they've got plans for Golarion's moon. I've always thought that a magical gateway from a medieval fantasy world that projects onto a habitable moon would make for a nice extension into a new landscape for adventurers to explore. But if it's Spelljammer with ships-in-SPAAAAACE...then, no. I wouldn't be a fan of that. Same for magical lightrail systems or other industrialized magical inventions. That's why I'm also tentative and anxious about the amount of gunpowder that might get introduced down the road, too.
So, to repeat, if the campaign setting can give me decent magical explanations for why the moon is within reach...say, something like a magical Stargate or gates in general...then I'm in. Anything too techy or sci-fi beyond that...and I'm out...or I'm cutting it out to replace with something more to my liking.
Just my two-cents,
--Neil
I am 90% certain that the only way to get to Golarion's moons and neighboring planets will be via magic. And no magic flying ships. Probably portals, but that hasn't been fully decided yet.
I am 90% certain that the only way to get to Golarion's moons and neighboring planets will be via magic. And no magic flying ships. Probably portals, but that hasn't been fully decided yet.
Are you kidding? As Sea Wyvern's Wake can attest, travel to a strange new place can be half the fun of going. I (glumly) accepted the teleport option of traveling from Magepoint to the Spire in Age of Worms 'cause I know there's a space shortage. But if you're going to have the PCs travel to some place really unique like the moon (!!) I think it deserves more attention than just 'you walk thru a portal'.
I'll take a flying ship over a teleport arch any day of the week.
I'll take a flying ship over a teleport arch any day of the week.
Me too. Which might seem hypocritical of me, given my aversion to sci fi in fantasy, but I guess the way I see it is, I can accept ships in a fantasy setting and I can accept magic in a fantasy setting, therefore I have no problem with ships that are magical--so long as they still pretty much look like sailing ships. I don't like robots and trains, for example, because they don't have any, non-anachronistic, analog.
But flying ships are pretty cool, IMO. And it would seem logical to me that if ships are good for traveling great distances from one land to another, why not a flying ship to go to the moon? Of course, I suppose there's nothing to prevent a DM from doing that on his own...
Then you and Sutter probably have a lot to commiserate about. :D
Hey now! I buy your books which pays your salary. That means you work for me, right?
I'm with Kevlar and Fletch on this trip to the moon ... an arcane ship is the way to go. Fortunately, the good folks at Pathfinder create such good adventures, I think it will be easy to change an magic arch to an arcane ship in my own campaign, and vice versa for others. That's half the fun of being a DM ... making it your own!
That being said, in terms of appearance, I'm a fan of huge, rock-like monoliths covered in runes, over a wooden ship with cloth sails heading on through the stratosphere. That Steve Prescot picture of the Creation Forge in Eberron, or Christophe Vacher's floating mountains are what I have in mind.
Cheers
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I am 90% certain that the only way to get to Golarion's moons and neighboring planets will be via magic.Well, if it worked for John Carter of Mars...
I keep saying this...
BARSOOM, BARSOOM, BARSOOM... (See now you've got me yelling)
I do not know what it would take to get the rights to produce the Barsoom setting for an adventure path but it would be sooooooo cool...
I have wanted for years to put the stats together for Green Martians. With 3.5 it will be easier than with previous versions and some of those Green Martian Barbarians would be great. Most everyone is a Warrior, or a Barbarian. Probably many have a bit of rogue thrown in.
Let's start a revolution for the Red planet to be John Carter's Red Planet. The other planet I do nto care about as much...
Is there anybody out there???
I'm with Kevlar and Fletch on this trip to the moon ... an arcane ship is the way to go.
Cheers
Um, minor nitpick, but it's Kel-var, a proper (albeit made up) name, not Kev-lar, the stuff they use to make bullet-resistant vests.
But it is good to see that others agree! Not being a fan of Eberron I haven't seen the Steve Prescot picture you mention, but it sounds cool.
Proper and made up, originally by Tolkien. :) "Kelvar" is Elvish for "animal life" (as opposed to Olvar, plants).
And if this were a democracy I'd cast a vote for arcane ships, but it ain't, so I can't. All I can do is state that if they were handled well they'd be awesome.
(For the record, I loved the concept of Spelljammer, but I think it was mishandled in a number of ways. The setting was weirdly flavorless, as opposed to the drowning-in-flavor Planescape; everything since then has had more or less the right amount of spice. Many of the monsters, worlds, and perils were very poorly thought out and absurd or setting-breaking. And so on. It could be done right, though, and you guys have a damn good record so far...)
Chief Creative Officer, Publisher
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In addition to the moon, which has a very interesting story behind it, two additional inhabited worlds loom large on the horizons of Golarion. The green planet, which I'm currently calling Castrovel, is covered with swamps and forests and weird gaseous seas. The red planet doesn't have a name yet, but it will use Edgar Rice Burroughs and Otis Adelbert Kline's Mars novels as a basis in the same way Golarion proper is based on pulp sword and sorcery. Psionics will certainly be common on Castrovel, and perhaps on the red planet as well.
It will be possible to travel there by thought, or on some sort of beam, or whatever. Each of these worlds will certainly include airships, but it remains to be seen whether or not you can take a trip between worlds on them.
We plan to publish at least one GameMastery Module on each of these worlds, and if there is a genuine audience for this type of play I could be very easily convinced to schedule more and larger products in this vein.
By the way, if readers are generally interested in "sword and planet" stories a la Edgar Rice Burroughs's Mars and Venus novels, I highly recommend Michael Moorcock's City of the Beast, which is a direct homage to Burroughs. Robert E. Howard's Almuric, a classic of the genre from the creator of Conan the Barbarian. Both are early releases in our new Planet Stories line of science fiction and fantasy trade paperbacks. We are really excited to bring these classic works back into print, and I'm really hoping Paizo readers give the line a chance.
Thanks!
--Erik
Flying ships. Ewwwwww. Spelljammer. Nooooooooooooooooooooo!
Teleport arch. SG-1. Ok.
Just no Golarion at the center with the sun orbiting and none of this crystal sphere stuff. God I beg you! I implore you!
Red Planet, green planet, swords and sorcery. That sounds furiously cool.
(ED: astronomers on Golarion must have an interesting job. Anyway, I'm glad you all have some literary foundations to your world building, that should keep the fluff out)
Erik, you've just become my latest shordurpersav. :)
And I know you're not publishing this, but let me take a moment to recommend the Kregen novels by Alan Burt Akers. Some of the best planetary romance since Burroughs.
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In addition to the moon, which has a very interesting story behind it, two additional inhabited worlds loom large on the horizons of Golarion. The green planet, which I'm currently calling Castrovel, is covered with swamps and forests and weird gaseous seas.
So, like Venus in old pulp SF tales? :-)
The red planet doesn't have a name yet, but it will use Edgar Rice Burroughs and Otis Adelbert Kline's Mars novels as a basis in the same way Golarion proper is based on pulp sword and sorcery.
W00+!
People actually forget how much sword & sorcery contains this weird pseudo-science stuff. In "Tales of the Dying Earth" matemathics is considered the ultimate magic for manipulating the universe. In Clark Ashton Smith's stories some characters travel all the way to moons of Saturn. In Leigh Brackett's stories magic is nothing more then science in disguise and Science fiction and sword & sorcery walk hand in hand.
As I wrote earlier, I'm still not sure how much science do I actually want in my D&D but, if introduced carefully and with some restraint, it could give a whole new dimension to campaign setting. Or it could be a critical fail. I don't know.
Anyway, you guys are totally experienced in establishing flavor, so just keep on the good work. :-)
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On the vein of magical travel... I've always liked the idea of airships. Spelljammer annoyed me, though - a sailing ship with an atmosphere envelope was too severe a disruption for me to do anything but laugh at.
Really, I like the idea of a conduit of sorts - like a short-lived transient plane that vastly accelerates the travel of those inside it, but which places a time limit on how long you can be in it before it collapses back into the void between planes. Like the Plane of Mirrors if it had a timer before it imploded and ceased to work.
That said, and in reference to the other topics, I have to say I am quite intrigued by the moon and the two other worlds. They certainly sound like a good place to terrorize my players...
Who, me? A Killer GM? No, I do believe that goes to some of the folks posting those campaign journals... I'm just a firm believer in Darwinian Selection for PCs.
I'm completely happy with a splash of sci-fi in my fantasy. I don't understand why it's such anathema to certain fantasy fans to even remotely suggest the existence of pseudo-scientific things occuring in their games. I'm all for flying ships with magical engines breaching the atmosphere of Golarion and sailing to one of these other worlds, or gates that can teleport creatures to these locales (indeed, I have created campaign material around such things).
I like the new novella releases Eric. In fact I was overjoyed to see the C. L. Moore stuff. Jirel of Joiry is one of the sexiest red-haired warlord's out there (she makes Red Sonja look like a little girl by comparison)!
I also love the thought of an ERB inspired world. Makes me rankle slightly that you aren't opening up the Gamemastery line to other freelance writers yet (of which I am but a humble average representative).
In addition to the moon, which has a very interesting story behind it, two additional inhabited worlds loom large on the horizons of Golarion.
You know, the thing I like about the approach you guys are taking with your world-building is that it's really more like multiple world-building projects. Essentially, we're getting Golarion, its moon, Castrovel, and another unnamed red planet. That's like 3-1/2 campaign settings all in one!
It will be possible to travel there by thought, or on some sort of beam, or whatever. Each of these worlds will certainly include airships, but it remains to be seen whether or not you can take a trip between worlds on them.
Airships have never been something I looked for...or enjoyed...in medieval fantasy campaign settings. But it seems like that topic almost always gets explored eventually. It will be interesting to see how you guys spin it. My only concern is that it be kept very, very...did I say very?...limited in scope. Possibly even a "forgotten" technology in most places across these worlds. Basically, I wouldn't want to see an Expedition to the Barrier Peaks-type of adventure in every corner of Golarion's solar system.
In addition, I'll share the vision of what I hoped would find its way into the Pathfinder-verse from a world-hopping perspective. To me, it's all about planar traveling. If the outer and inner planes exist -- and apparently they do on Golarion -- then I'd expect them to also exist or have entry/exit points from these other celestial bodies. So, crossing from one physical world to another might just be an exercise in plane-traveling from Golarion to an outer plane...searching for another gateway out of that plane...and it just happens to take you into Castrovel, the moon, or the red planet.
To me, this approach allows for that "journey" aspect of getting from point-A to point-B -- or more specifically, from planet-A to planet-B. It also sets up the potential for extra-planar conflicts cutting off some of these "trade" routes between worlds...and even isolating one of the planets entirely until a new planar "trasfer point" can be located. There would be outposts, way-lodges, transfer stations, and connection hubs dotting the planes for those with the skill and knowledge to find and use them. Some of them might even shift and move such that you have to enter the Nine Hells to reach the red planet one week, but you have to cross Limbo to find your way back next month. And so on...
I think that would work really well for all types of gamers. And I actually proposed a campaign setting very much along these lines during Wizards open-call a few years back. Obviously, I didn't make the top-three. But I still like that idea a lot. It even reminds me very much of that hallway in the Queen of the Demonweb Pits where different doorways looked out upon other worlds.
So that's something like what I envision when you guys talk about crossing from Golarion to the moon, or another planet, and so on. To me, airships or starships aren't "fantasy" enough for me...or it just starts to run counter to the traditional medieval setting that most gamers prefer. But, since those same gamers have always accepted planar travel...and even look forward to an occasional foray into the Abyss or elsewhere...then, why not use that as the "launching pad" for extra-terrestrial journies, too? I think it would get maximum acceptance from players and GMs that way...
Just my two-cents,
--Neil
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In addition to the moon, which has a very interesting story behind it, two additional inhabited worlds loom large on the horizons of Golarion. The green planet, which I'm currently calling Castrovel, is covered with swamps and forests and weird gaseous seas. The red planet doesn't have a name yet, but it will use Edgar Rice Burroughs and Otis Adelbert Kline's Mars novels as a basis in the same way Golarion proper is based on pulp sword and sorcery. Psionics will certainly be common on Castrovel, and perhaps on the red planet as well.
It will be possible to travel there by thought, or on some sort of beam, or whatever. Each of these worlds will certainly include airships, but it remains to be seen whether or not you can take a trip between worlds on them.
We plan to publish at least one GameMastery Module on each of these worlds, and if there is a genuine audience for this type of play I could be very easily convinced to schedule more and larger products in this vein.
By the way, if readers are generally interested in "sword and planet" stories a la Edgar Rice Burroughs's Mars and Venus novels, I highly recommend Michael Moorcock's City of the Beast, which is a direct homage to Burroughs. Robert E. Howard's Almuric, a classic of the genre from the creator of Conan the Barbarian. Both are early releases in our new Planet Stories line of science fiction and fantasy trade paperbacks. We are really excited to bring these classic works back into print, and I'm really hoping Paizo readers give the line a chance.
Thanks!
--Erik
Erik - You Rock.
By the way I have already ordered all the Planet Story Books you have on the site and will order others as they become available. This should be a subscription too... I'd sign up.
I am so looking forward to a Burroughs influenced Red Planet.
I may have missed it in previous threads but what does Golarian's moon look like in the night sky? Is it a dull blue, a bright white, or a black orb with sparkles of red from 10,001 volcanos. Also, what do the people of Golarion call the moon? Is it just the moon or does it have a more "fantastic" name?
Proper and made up, originally by Tolkien. :) "Kelvar" is Elvish for "animal life" (as opposed to Olvar, plants).
Yeah. I actually came up with it independently, only to learn later that Professor Tolkien had come up with the same word a few decades earlier. Ah well. I should have read the appendices sooner.
I can totally appreciate that some people might not like airships or airships that can travel to different worlds, but I dig it. Down the road when they introduce more info about the moon and other worlds, maybe the whole airship thing could be presented as an optional rule or set of rules and presented so that those who like it can run with it and those who detest it can easily omit it from their own games. Just a thought.
And to try to explain why some of us don't like sci fi in our fantasy, all I can do is admit that there is not logic to it. It is just a matter of taste. Why do I like fish and chips but not like lemon chicken? Just personal taste, I guess.
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Chief Creative Officer, Publisher
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By the way I have already ordered all the Planet Story Books you have on the site and will order others as they become available. This should be a subscription too... I'd sign up.
We should have Planet Stories subscriptions set up in the next few months. There are a few kinks left in the Pathfinder shipping process we need to iron out first, but once that's done we'll be putting more effort into setting up more subscription products.
--Erik
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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In addition to the moon, which has a very interesting story behind it, two additional inhabited worlds loom large on the horizons of Golarion. The green planet, which I'm currently calling Castrovel, is covered with swamps and forests and weird gaseous seas. The red planet doesn't have a name yet, but it will use Edgar Rice Burroughs and Otis Adelbert Kline's Mars novels as a basis in the same way Golarion proper is based on pulp sword and sorcery. Psionics will certainly be common on Castrovel, and perhaps on the red planet as well.
On behalf of the hardcore spelljammer fan, let me just say, don't forget the giff.
As a hardcore Paizo fan, let me just say, f$@& the giff, this stuff sounds terrific and I can't wait to see a product set on one of these worlds.
I'll take a flying ship over a teleport arch any day of the week.
I tend to feel the same way. I have used small magical boats (based on the sand skiff from Star Wars) in a number of games. I also have a fondness form cloud castles (Thanks to some excellent adventures in some of the early issues of Dungeon).
I even did a take on magical tech that amounted to a small cloud keep controlled by a pylon (for those of you that old enough to remember the orginal Land of the Lost.)
My group got a kick out of the reference.
For me, science always seems to creep into my fantasy because fantasy worlds borrow so many of our own natural laws and then lay magic on top of them. In my mind, if we can assume gravity is the same, and physics works the same way, and air is still filled with molecules that move in understandable ways... why hasn't someone with an intelligence of 35 figured out how to build a glider, at least, particularly with magic to aid in the construction? Now I'm not saying I always want to play an Eberron-style high-magic campaign... that's not really what D&D's about for me... but I tend to think of magical effects in terms of principles and equations and how they interact with and tweak the established natural laws. As a result, it's easy for me to stray into overly "modern" or scientific explanations of why something works the way it does, even if the effect I'm going for is a perfectly acceptable D&D one. For instance, there's nothing weird about the way a gecko sticks to walls, but try getting the van der Waal's force into Pathfinder... :)
Add to that the simple fact that if the universe looks remotely like our own, steam engines will work. There's no way around it. If heated gases don't expand, you have a world that we probably couldn't even perceive with human senses, never mind live in. (I find S.M. Stirling's "Dies the Fire" unreadable because he somehow arranges to deactivate electricity, gunpowder, and steam technology. I could accept the first and maybe the second, but not the third.)
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I also have a fondness form cloud castles (Thanks to some excellent adventures in some of the early issues of Dungeon).
In the setting I've created, there is an entire floating city. A remnant of a lost age when the gods still roamed the earth, its inhabitants have long since died. However, it floats amongst the clouds (unknown to even the most learned scholars) due to the ancient, divine magics that rested it from the ground after a great, apocalyptic war.
It was more important to the backstory of the setting than a place to for the PCs to adventure--it was a complete DM conceit. :D
I even did a take on magical tech that amounted to a small cloud keep controlled by a pylon (for those of you that old enough to remember the orginal Land of the Lost.)
Oh, I remember. It certainly influenced my penchant for putting weird, ancient civilizations into my campaigns. However, the sleestak were so much scarier when I was a kid. :)