Sandpoint is amazing


Rise of the Runelords

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Selk wrote:
Speaking of forcing a change of viewpoint, what do you think of calling in the National Guard to allow black children to attend white schools in the 1960s? I think of it as a harsh education.

What do you think of forcing children to be bused for an hour both ways in order for force integration instead of allowing them to attend their local school? Is that "harsh education" as well?


pres man wrote:
What do you think of forcing children to be bused for an hour both ways in order for force integration instead of allowing them to attend their local school? Is that "harsh education" as well?

Not if their local school is totally substandard and fails to provide them with an education sufficient to allow them to be a part of society outside of their neighborhood. That's like kicking out someone's teeth and then shooting him for mumbling.

Sovereign Court

Nope. I think that's unfortunate. It's not very progressiveif children and their parents have no choice which public school they attend. I'd be pretty upset. Of course, I also think it's unfortunate that the quality and financial backing of the school can be determined by the racial makeup of the neighborhood surrounding it.

I suppose I'd also be a pissed parent if I knew my child's education was going to be poor because I was poor and there were no spaces in the better schools because they were filled by the students of richer parents who could afford to live closer. I'd probably think "Public education my ass. This is just a subsidized gated community."

I guess I'm ambivalent. It's a tough situation. When you have kids you're not thinking about what's best for the community - you're thinking about what's best for your kid.

Paizo Employee Chief Technical Officer

I lost track of the discussion. There's forced bussing in Sandpoint now?


Selk wrote:
...but I think you're too respectful of other people's opinions regardless of their quality. Certainly they're allowed to have them, but it seems like you're advocating a system of case by case epiphany as a system of social change.

Well, because I'm just one person, I feel that I can only really try to change the minds of others on a case by case basis. I'll let the politicians and organizations like PETA push awareness of their causes and viewpoints.

In talking on an individual-basis though, I don't necessarily respect the content of everyone's opinions per se, it just helps to respect their entitlement to them in order to try to figure out why others think what they think. If I understand why, I can better argue against it, instead of just saying, "Well, you're obviously just an idiot, good luck with that." Although I could always do that if I think arguing is pointless. ;)

I guess it all depends on what you mean by force. If an idea is really bad, most of the time a person can't help get riled up about it. I don't blame 'em so much. I understand the need to fight. For instance, I don't look back at the Civil War and cry foul. I'm glad the victors forced their idea on everyone. But that's a much higher scale than just me, though. On a personal level, if the other person seems reasonable enough (as in not just shouting out epithets), I try to debate first. Since on some forums I usually have that option, I don't see the need to try to force anything. Besides since people can just ignore what they want... I might as well try honey over vinegar to catch some flies.

As for thet 1960s thing, I'd have to read more about it. They always glossed over the last several decades in my history classes. :/

Shallow attempt to get back to topic:
Sandpoint is amazing! It could use more gnomes to use ghost sound to fool goblins into thinking there's dog barking in an alley... where there's really just lava. Okay, maybe something more realistic. Barrels of acid.


Vic Wertz wrote:
I lost track of the discussion. There's forced bussing in Sandpoint now?

Of course. It happened a few years back when the Shoanti folks were forced to accept half-orcs into their schools. Of course everyone still makes fun of halflings because they ride the "short horses".

Sovereign Court

Fair enough. I'd have to work myself into a lather to find an angle of argument against that post.

----

So...Sandpoint. Awesome! I plan to set my next blockbuster musical there. A kind of Sweeny Todd meets Gremlins with a dash of Carmen. I think I'll call it Karzoug Get Your Gun!

Dark Archive Bella Sara Charter Superscriber

Vic Wertz wrote:
I lost track of the discussion. There's forced bussing in Sandpoint now?

You tell us. James has been hinting that Pathfinder volume 2 will involve bussing, the control of weapons in the city of Magnimar, and civil unrest resulting from an unpopular war waged to secure magical fuel in the distant desert kingdom of Qari.

Volume 3 has me really irritated, what with that lawful good paladin who kills illegal immigrants. I just can't see how that would be lawful or good.


pres man wrote:
Yeah, one of the biggest "what the ...?" moments I had was when I read that Aldern Foxglove was acting frightened when a 1st level goblin was attacking his dog. The only thing I can think of, is that he was unarmed at the time, though not having at least a dagger seems a bit unbelievable for me.

Trying to yank this thread back on topic (although it is now difficult to tell exactly what the topic of this thread is), I also found this strange. Aldern could whoopp them Goblins, (and give the Pcs a good run for their money as well). In such a well constructed, and thought out adventure, I found this over sight strange.

I was just going to reduce his levels a bit, I can't see any reason he needs 7 hit dice, I think I'll just drop the rogue levels, it makes perfect sense for an aristocrat to be terrified of a group of Goblins.


mevers wrote:

Trying to yank this thread back on topic (although it is now difficult to tell exactly what the topic of this thread is), I also found this strange. Aldern could whoopp them Goblins, (and give the Pcs a good run for their money as well). In such a well constructed, and thought out adventure, I found this over sight strange. I was just going to reduce his levels a bit, I can't see any reason he needs 7 hit dice, I think I'll just drop the rogue levels, it makes perfect sense for an aristocrat to be terrified of a group of Goblins.

Don't be too quick to assume that there's something wrong with Aldern's write-up. If you read through some of the other threads, you pick up that he's got weird issues going on, which get fully fleshed out in Pathfinder 2. And it's important that the PCs meet him now. You could always assume he's "sandbagging" his fight with the goblins.

I don't figure a 5 against one fight is a lock for him either. I don't think hunting dogs are trained for helping rogues in mass melee. Sniffing out game and barking, yes. Setting up the flanking? Not so much.


Michael F wrote:

Don't be too quick to assume that there's something wrong with Aldern's write-up. If you read through some of the other threads, you pick up that he's got weird issues going on, which get fully fleshed out in Pathfinder 2. And it's important that the PCs meet him now. You could always assume he's "sandbagging" his fight with the goblins.

I don't figure a 5 against one fight is a lock for him either. I don't think hunting dogs are trained for helping rogues in mass melee. Sniffing out game and barking, yes. Setting up the flanking? Not so much.

Yeah, I know he has got "issues" going on, and plays a big part in the next chapter (which i am looking forward to), but he could whip those Goblins. He is at least a CR5 (and that's being generous), while all the goblins are only an EL3, hardly seems like a fair fight. Add in his hunting dog, which I would say is a riding dog, and it is no wonder the Goblins are cowering.

I just am not seeing why he would be scared of a few goblins, especially as he is a hunter. He does have 3 levels of rogue, which at least implies some adventuring experience.

I suppose my question really is, are the 3 levels of rogue all that important? Or can I safely drop them? Cause if you drop the rogue levels, it makes much more sense.

Paizo Employee Creative Director

He's gonna need and want them rogue levels in Pathfinder 2. He's also got his reasons for being "distracted" in that scene in Burnt Offerings. In any event, if the PCs never learn what levels he has, then it doesn't really matter. In all honesty, his stats shouldn't ever come in to play in Burnt Offerings anyway.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Pawns, Rulebook Subscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
mevers wrote:
Michael F wrote:

Don't be too quick to assume that there's something wrong with Aldern's write-up. If you read through some of the other threads, you pick up that he's got weird issues going on, which get fully fleshed out in Pathfinder 2. And it's important that the PCs meet him now. You could always assume he's "sandbagging" his fight with the goblins.

I don't figure a 5 against one fight is a lock for him either. I don't think hunting dogs are trained for helping rogues in mass melee. Sniffing out game and barking, yes. Setting up the flanking? Not so much.

Yeah, I know he has got "issues" going on, and plays a big part in the next chapter (which i am looking forward to), but he could whip those Goblins. He is at least a CR5 (and that's being generous), while all the goblins are only an EL3, hardly seems like a fair fight. Add in his hunting dog, which I would say is a riding dog, and it is no wonder the Goblins are cowering.

I just am not seeing why he would be scared of a few goblins, especially as he is a hunter. He does have 3 levels of rogue, which at least implies some adventuring experience.

I suppose my question really is, are the 3 levels of rogue all that important? Or can I safely drop them? Cause if you drop the rogue levels, it makes much more sense.

I sketched out some stats for him - not horribly combat focused, but not completely useless either - and then ran the combat to see how he'd do. He's unarmored and only carrying a masterwork dagger, so perhaps its not terribly surprising that he killed exactly one goblin, and didn't even last four full rounds.

Stats I used for him behind the spoiler cut:

Spoiler:
Aldern Foxglove
CN aristocrat 4/rogue 3
Medium humanoid (human)
Init +2
Languages Common, Elven, Goblin
Senses Listen +8, Spot +8
=======================================
AC 12 (touch 12, flat-footed 10)
hp 25 (7 HD)
Fort +3, Ref +6, Will +6
=======================================
Spd 30 ft (6 squares)
Melee +8 mwk dagger (1d4/19-20)
Ranged +8 mwk dagger (1d4/19-20)
Base Atk +5; Grp +5
Combat Options sneak attack +2d6
Combat Gear none
=======================================
Str 10, Dex 15, Con 8, Int 14, Wis 12, Cha 14
SQ Trap sense +1, trapfinding
Feats Great Fortitude, Toughness, Track, Weapon Finesse
Skills Balance +5, Bluff +9, Climb +3, Diplomacy +11, Disable Device +5, Handle Animal +9, Hide +5, Jump +3, Knowledge (local) +5, Knowledge (nobility and royalty) +5, Listen +8, Move Silently +5, Open Lock +5, Ride +11, Search +5, Spot +8, Survival +8, Tumble +5
Equipment mwk dagger, 50 gp


Shisumo wrote:
I sketched out some stats for him - not horribly combat focused, but not completely useless either - and then ran the combat to see how he'd do. He's unarmored and only carrying a masterwork dagger, so perhaps its not terribly surprising that he killed exactly one goblin, and didn't even last four full rounds.

After thinking about it some more, I came roughly to the same conclusion. He is unarmored, which makes a BIG difference. I think my biggest gripe was the description of him cowering. I think I'll just change it to have him surrounded by the 4 Goblins, with them all circling each other, with no one wanting to make the first move. Then as the PCs arrive, the leader kills his dog, and the PCs come in and save the day.

The Exchange RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32

Sebastian wrote:
Vic Wertz wrote:
I lost track of the discussion. There's forced bussing in Sandpoint now?

You tell us. James has been hinting that Pathfinder volume 2 will involve bussing, the control of weapons in the city of Magnimar, and civil unrest resulting from an unpopular war waged to secure magical fuel in the distant desert kingdom of Qari.

Volume 3 has me really irritated, what with that lawful good paladin who kills illegal immigrants. I just can't see how that would be lawful or good.

It could be: the immigrants are trying to take advantage of the fact that Magnimarians are whiny and refuse to do the most menial jobs unless they are "suitably" compensated for it, which means that prices are driven up for basic needs, thus the citizens then complain again, and the wages go up, and the prices for necessities go up again...

In any case, they're surely Chaotic, because they have no respect for the hoops that citizens have to jump through, and, surely, it's not a Good thing that these outsiders can get away with it. So, he might still be Lawful Good.

And besides, Qari had it coming, with their SMDs. A*$!@@@s just buried the books and scrolls so that the UM couldn't find them.

Liberty's Edge

mevers wrote:
Shisumo wrote:
I sketched out some stats for him - not horribly combat focused, but not completely useless either - and then ran the combat to see how he'd do. He's unarmored and only carrying a masterwork dagger, so perhaps its not terribly surprising that he killed exactly one goblin, and didn't even last four full rounds.
After thinking about it some more, I came roughly to the same conclusion. He is unarmored, which makes a BIG difference. I think my biggest gripe was the description of him cowering. I think I'll just change it to have him surrounded by the 4 Goblins, with them all circling each other, with no one wanting to make the first move. Then as the PCs arrive, the leader kills his dog, and the PCs come in and save the day.

There's also the possibility that Aldern is a bit sloshed after drinking a few at the inn and/or has no weapon on him (it's still up in his room). I don't care how many levels you have--if you're beset by psychotic, razor-wielding muppets while being without weapons or armor, chances are you might do a bit o' cowering yourself.


I do not see what is so amazing about Sandpoint; it is ok, but nothing special; I just dont get why you guys are so jazzed up about it unless you are starved for a little imagination. It is ok, surely, but why do you guys think it is all cookies and cream?


Valegrim wrote:
I do not see what is so amazing about Sandpoint; it is ok, but nothing special; I just dont get why you guys are so jazzed up about it unless you are starved for a little imagination. It is ok, surely, but why do you guys think it is all cookies and cream?

Dude: You can't say that on this thread!

You have to agree that you like Sandpoint and THEN start your socio-political diatribe. Rules are Rules. ;^)


Valegrim wrote:
I do not see what is so amazing about Sandpoint; it is ok, but nothing special; I just dont get why you guys are so jazzed up about it unless you are starved for a little imagination. It is ok, surely, but why do you guys think it is all cookies and cream?

Pure envy from everyone who doesn't actually live in California.


Valegrim wrote:
I do not see what is so amazing about Sandpoint; it is ok, but nothing special; I just dont get why you guys are so jazzed up about it unless you are starved for a little imagination. It is ok, surely, but why do you guys think it is all cookies and cream?

I wasn't going to be the one to break everyone else's love for the setting, but I'm siding with Valegrim. The bar was set very high with Diamond Lake and I'm not finding enough in Sandpoint to reach that height.

With some name changes, I plan on importing a good chunk of Diamond Lake into Sandpoint: The Emporium, The Able Carter Coaching Inn, Tidwoad's Jewelry (and gnomish boarding house), Allustan, and so on. There's still miles of gameplay left in these locations and nothing in Sandpoint seemed to match that level of character.


Michael F wrote:
Fletch wrote:

The big thing keeping me from falling in love with Sandpoint as much of you have is that I can’t get my brain around the number of PC levels there are living in this town. Barbarian bouncers, Paladin brewers, Rogue bartenders, etc. And multiple levels of these classes each. It seems like the only person without a PC class level is the poor sod what got his face eaten.

I tried to justify it to myself by rationalizing it as a frontier town filled with adventurous settlers, but I can’t factor that in to the hero worship the PCs are supposed to experience after slaying a few goblins.

“That was amazing the way you faced down that goblin,” said the baker as he kneaded his lump of dough. “I haven’t seen courage like that since my wife fought off that dragon turtle that tried beaching here last year.”

There are other, minor things that I’ll be adjusting as per normal for any DM taking a published setting, but the townsfolk’s class levels will all be getting a major overhaul.

I'm not sure if the NPC levels are out of wack, I would have to check the recomended levels for a town of 1,200 in the DMG, but overall they seem okay to me. I don't think the sheriff or the bouncers or the jewler's guards could be expected do their jobs in a town that size without a few levels.

That being said, the grocer with 7 levels of commoner got a raised eyebrow from me.

I do see your point that it seems a bit strange that a party of 1st level PCs would be able to make such an impressive showing of fighting some goblins that they would suddenly be famous in town. Because "everyone" is supposed to at the ceremony and there are a number of NPCs with better levels than the players.

I think it's a case of being in the right place at the right time. 15 minutes of fame and all that. The other folks with level just didn't manage to grab any spotlight. Crappy initiative rolls, I suppose. And a lot of the folks with character classes are "retired", so maybe they have age penalties to their...

When I review an average between the city guide in the DMGII and Cityscape I take the average residential district for a small town and get: population 450 to include 1 Barbarian, 3 Bards, 4 Clerics, 1 Druid, 9 Fighters, 1 Monk, 1 Paladin, 4 Psionicists, 1 Ranger, 9 Rogues, 2 Sorcerers, 4 Wizards, 4 Adepts, 4 Aristocrats, 333 Commoners, 25 Experts, and 40 Warriors all with an average character class level ranging between 1 and 6 (some higher than that). However, if you build every city on this design, it might feel bland. The trick is to make a starting town small enough to make the PC's stand out quickly but big enough to provide more character and options of exploration. Does this mean, that according to two books, that Sandpoint must suffer if it doesn't adhere to them?

There's then two other factors: how many are retired, and what happened where. In the adventure it does mention soldiers/ guards rounding up goblins, but they are *expected* to do so. Davelin of the Goblin Squash Stables may have been out there killing goblins, but everyone in town expects him to with all of those ears and a pickled Goblin leader at hos stables. By contrast the PC's are just starting out and come from the masses as an ordinary example of citizenry that took a stand right alongside those trained and prepared to face such a threat. They didn't *have* to do anything. Since only Father Zantus is mentioned as being in the area *and* being relegated to undertaking actions to heal the injured in front of the flashy new Cathedral, it's that 15 minutes of fame. Maybe the other PC classed NPC's are still active, but what are they doing to attract/ compete for attention away from the PC's? Even if there were other notable adventurers and tales to be had, would that really take away from witnessing ordinary people rising to the occasion?

That's why after a week, the townsfolk might begin to forget about the PC's depending upon their actions. If the PC's remain vigilantly active in the public eye, then their rep will linger.

I think part of why Sandpoint is amazing is what I mentioned in my first post on page one. I enjoyed the dynamic of a simple town, uncrowded by PC classes, but yet had an element of the cosmopolitan and aura of openness. The mirror at the gate was a nice symbol of that. I don't think every town should be stuffed to the brim with shiny adventure hooks and epic villains. In essence it's a town that's got some fat cut out of it although it's still far enough away from being a one-trick-pony kind of backwater town. I find that refreshing.

I'd also think that if you wanted to tweak it, go ahead. If the setting isn't your cup of tea, then do something else.


Adventure Path Charter Subscriber

I think it is amazing that no one in this thread has mentioned that bit about the goblin coming out of the closet!. Tell me that's not a metaphor!

Yep, Sandpoint really is amazing.

Sovereign Court

It's generally considered bad form to eat someone's face off on your way out of the closet. No parade for you Mr. Goblin!


hmm; look you guys; there are 10 basic logical errors and you are making them and making yourselves look like neophytes with little to say of value; just answer the question and stop attacking me as an individual; why do you think Sandpoint is so amazing; in my opinion it is rather bland; back up your claim that it is amazing with some thought and creativity and perhaps some facts.

RPG Superstar 2013 Top 8

Valegrim wrote:
hmm; look you guys; there are 10 basic logical errors and you are making them and making yourselves look like neophytes with little to say of value; just answer the question and stop attacking me as an individual; why do you think Sandpoint is so amazing; in my opinion it is rather bland; back up your claim that it is amazing with some thought and creativity and perhaps some facts.

Eesh. I haven't seen anyone attacking you as an individual, and yet you call all of Sandpoint's supporters "neophytes"? Bad form.

Anyhow. Why is Sandpoint so well liked? I have a theory.

It's Saltmarsh redux.

Well, not exactly. But it's got a similar amount of detail to Saltmarsh. Like that place, Sandpoint manages to combine being friendly and having people to care about and have lots of potential for adventures. And on top of that, from what the authors have been saying, Sandpoint is going to stay relevant throughout the campaign, being a place that the characters can keep coming back to for roleplaying opportunities, friendships, romances, etc.

What about the other cities that Paizo's put a similar amount of detail into? None of them have had the same combination of friendly, lasting and adventure-hooky, with the possible exception of Cauldron. Cauldron, however, had a very exotic setting, which is a turn-off for a lot of GMs. Diamond Lake was exciting, yes, but a hellhole - the adventure hooks mostly had to do with "let's get out of this dump". Sasserine was a nice place, but the Savage Tide leaves it in module 3 and never looks back. Alhaster, Exag, the Styes and Scuttlecove are all nightmares of one stripe or another, from Communist capitals to gruesome and ghoulish burgs straight out of China Mieville.

Now, about those romances... The open acknowledgement of romance potential in Sandpoint (and all the sex, abortion and homosexuality that made this thread so long in the first place) is fresh and exciting from a published game product. Sex is a taboo topic in all official D&D materials that don't have "MATURE CONTENT" on a little sticker on the cover. It's refreshing to have published material that treats the subject in a fair, adult manner.

Sandpoint is a ready made user-and-PC-friendly town with plenty of adventure and roleplaying opportunity in an industry in which such things are rare. That's reason enough to be in favor of it.


I just finished reading up the entire description of every location in Sandpoint. Congrats on a great home town setting! And I am especially greatful for the inclusion of characters of varying sexual orientations in a tasteful manner. As a gay D&D player, I can tell you it's about time to see such characters presented much as they are in real life, ordinary members of society, who are capable of being good, or not good, like anyone else, rather than always presented as outcasts or deviants. Kudos to Paizo!

Liberty's Edge

Valegrim wrote:
I do not see what is so amazing about Sandpoint; it is ok, but nothing special; I just dont get why you guys are so jazzed up about it unless you are starved for a little imagination. It is ok, surely, but why do you guys think it is all cookies and cream?

So, by “starved for a little imagination” do you mean that we guys don’t typically expect that town in a published RPG adventure to feel like it exists beyond said adventure, or that it feels like a real, living/breathing, dynamic community, or that it doesn’t stoop to using gimmicky fantasy-isms (like magic-powered windmills, or whatever) to make it seem interesting on the surface while having nothing beyond that? Because, if so, then yeah–some of us are starving to see that in published materials more often.

Valegrim wrote:
hmm; look you guys; there are 10 basic logical errors and you are making them and making yourselves look like neophytes with little to say of value; just answer the question and stop attacking me as an individual; why do you think Sandpoint is so amazing; in my opinion it is rather bland; back up your claim that it is amazing with some thought and creativity and perhaps some facts.

Either you’re trying to achieve sublime irony or you’re being a hypocrite. Your choice.


ok; obviously you guys have nothing to say and nothing to back up the so called amazing comment and I dont feel like going back through your comments and teaching you the difference. Sandpoint is not amazing; it only takes an amazing gm to bring a world to life regardless of the setting. I wont be checking this thread again so dont bother reply to my comment; continue with your fanboy club; had hoped someone would tell why they thought Sandpoint was amazing, but that is obviously to much for you guys at this time.


Your zipper is down Vale.

Oh, you're not coming back... oh well.


Still don't have first Pathfinder Book :(

I also gave up reading this thread about 5 pages ago (except for the insulting bits). While Valegrim might be being a tad harsh about the place being bland, you can congratulate a setting into the ground.

Liberty's Edge

Valegrim wrote:
ok; obviously you guys have nothing to say and nothing to back up the so called amazing comment and I dont feel like going back through your comments and teaching you the difference. Sandpoint is not amazing; it only takes an amazing gm to bring a world to life regardless of the setting. I wont be checking this thread again so dont bother reply to my comment; continue with your fanboy club; had hoped someone would tell why they thought Sandpoint was amazing, but that is obviously to much for you guys at this time.

How To Be A Troll, by Valegrin

Step 1: Not only must you disagree with the popular opinion, but you must also be condescending about it.

Step 2: Should anyone respond to support their opinion you must completely ignore their argument.

Step 3: In addition, you must call their response a personal attack and be a hypocrite by calling them names.

Step 4: Attempt to act smug and superior (but fail miserably because you're a hypocrite).

Step 5: Declare at least one person a "fanboy."

Step 6: Tell people not to reply be cause you say not going to check the thread again.

Step 7: Respond--even though you said you wouldn't--because someone decides to reply to you anyway.


Did you ride the short buss to school, Azzy? You are obviously completely ignorant of the facts and therefore not worthy of reading further. Why must you resort to blatant name calling and attacks you pasty-skinned mamma's boy? When you graduate highschool and mature above the personal slander you can step to me. You are nothing more than a lemming and a fanboy. I am done with this thread. Don't bother posting further attacks as I will not read them.

(I need a little help with Step 7. Heathy?)

Dark Archive Bella Sara Charter Superscriber

CourtFool wrote:

Did you ride the short buss to school, Azzy? You are obviously completely ignorant of the facts and therefore not worthy of reading further. Why must you resort to blatant name calling and attacks you pasty-skinned mamma's boy? When you graduate highschool and mature above the personal slander you can step to me. You are nothing more than a lemming and a fanboy. I am done with this thread. Don't bother posting further attacks as I will not read them.

(I need a little help with Step 7. Heathy?)

Some people would be offended by troll-ish posts. Not me, I'm just saying that not everyone agrees with what you've expressed. I don't actually have any beliefs with regard to the matter.

But, there's really no way you can be a lawful goood troll. Being a troll requires harming innocent feelings. Some people say they aren't feelings, but that's intellectually dishonest and those people are morons.

Not me though. I'm smart and not a troll.


Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Rulebook Subscriber

What is it about this thread? A decisive 'conversation' about the concept of homosexuality,then a valid discussion of Paizo's cutest employees, and now a war about the merits of complimenting someone's work in an RPG supplement? And do I even need to bring up the plight of the poor, ignored, and ultimately sad fate of the ninja?

Pity the ninja, for in this thread of utmost political importance, the ninja again falls to the wayside. It sickens me, truly and deeply, in places that abut my very soul, in a manner that pricks, nay, caustically sears my very being, my very faith in the world in which we live.

My heart grows heavy, and my hands grow weary in the defense of the ninja . . . too great are the highly intelligent arguments that grace this thread, and my poor ability to persuade readers to cogitate on the plight of the ninja is not forceful enough, not strong enough, to overcome massive pillars of thought that have been erected here.

And with that I resign from this discussion, and like a lonely, sad ninja I fade into the shadows that haunt all the nowheres that linger between the here and the somewhere else.


Sebastian wrote:
Not me though. I'm smart and not a troll.

I said I am not posting in this thread anymore! I said good day!

(Should I insult again, or is this good?)

Liberty's Edge

CourtFool wrote:

Did you ride the short buss to school, Azzy? You are obviously completely ignorant of the facts and therefore not worthy of reading further. Why must you resort to blatant name calling and attacks you pasty-skinned mamma's boy? When you graduate highschool and mature above the personal slander you can step to me. You are nothing more than a lemming and a fanboy. I am done with this thread. Don't bother posting further attacks as I will not read them.

(I need a little help with Step 7. Heathy?)

Very nice, I applaud. :)

CourtFool wrote:

I said I am not posting in this thread anymore! I said good day!

(Should I insult again, or is this good?)

More insults = more better. You can never hurl enough insults. ;)


Valegrim wrote:
ok; obviously you guys have nothing to say and nothing to back up the so called amazing comment and I dont feel like going back through your comments and teaching you the difference. Sandpoint is not amazing; it only takes an amazing gm to bring a world to life regardless of the setting. I wont be checking this thread again so dont bother reply to my comment; continue with your fanboy club; had hoped someone would tell why they thought Sandpoint was amazing, but that is obviously to much for you guys at this time.

I thought I was very clear twice on why *I* thought Sandpoint was amazing for *me.* I gave specific reasons, but ultimately it has nothing to do with logic as much as my personal feelings, and I don't need to justify feelings nor persuade anyone else. I think it's impossible for anyone to find every city mesmerizing, and it's okay to dislike a city. Since this isn't a homebrew game but an adventure path, it's understood that a city will be fleshed out for me regardless if I happen to enjoy it or not. Why buy an adventure path only to read that it takes place in a city that I need to erect and flesh out? That would defeat the purpose in my opinion. If the city that is presented needs seasoning, or if it's felt it needs to be discarded outright for any reason, that's a matter of personal DM discretion everyone has a right to do. If I wanted complete homebrew, I wouldn't subscribe to Pathfinder. If you don't like it, unsubscribe, but mentioning that anyone who does enjoy Pathfinder is a fanboy would be lame since I'm sure there must be women playing as well. I'm an absolutely proud fan of Pathfinder.


Thou art as loathsome as a toad.


DarkArt wrote:


I thought I was very clear twice on why *I* thought Sandpoint was amazing for *me.* I gave specific reasons, but ...

ok; some comments elsewhere prompted me to come back; Darkart; I appreciate your input and your comments, I just dont see it as amazing and dont mean to include you in comments for such as Azzy as he seems to be off on his own agenda. I certainly can tell the difference between someone who gives honest opinions like yourself and someone who says something like; how dare you ask the question of what is amazing on our thread. it is unfortunate that you felt grouped in that manner and I apologize, but I didnt really want to single anyone out or such as that.

I just dont see Sandpoint as amazing; certainly it is an acceptable adventure and took some work, but amazing? Lasting reputation is nothing new; is in the UA as a suggestion, it is interesting that this is one of you high points. I thought back when Greyhawk was first released it was amazing; but it was a first; I thought when Tarantis and the City State of the Invicible Overlord were released, they were amazing and exhaustive. If you read several of the other posts that people have about Sandpoint, you will see there is a lot of questions; for example; what is all the smuggling about, what are they smuggling; and why. Another is about the dieties; they give names about many dieties then only have a few in the adventure and very little information about any of them; compare that to Forgotten Realms for instance. There are a lot of holes; keeping this in mind; I am curious why those of you who think Sandpoint is amazing is and what you are using as a measure.

Liberty's Edge

As the first to claim Sandpoint is amazing I must chime in.

It is amazing. I've seen quite a few cities, and it is better than

Cauldron (Shackled City Adventure Path)
Diamond Lake (Age of Worms AP)
Sasserine (Savage Tide AP)
Freeport (The Everquest d20 city)
Ptolus (Monte Cook - This is an example of 'too much')
Saltmarsh (DMG 2)
And every example city in Cityscape.

Not saying they aren't all good cities, but Sandpoint = better. The NPCs are more lively and interesting the locations are just great (the brothel, the church, the old light). And the 'melting pot' atmosphere mixed in with some racial tensions, it's like a little New York City.

Dark Archive Bella Sara Charter Superscriber

Valegrim wrote:


ok; some comments elsewhere prompted me to come back; Darkart; I appreciate your input and your comments, I just dont see it as amazing and dont mean to include you in comments for such as Azzy as he seems to be off on his own agenda. I certainly can tell the difference between someone who gives honest opinions like yourself and someone who says something like; how dare you ask the question of what is amazing on our thread. it is unfortunate that you felt grouped in that manner and I apologize, but I didnt really want to single anyone out or such as that.

Did someone soak your semi-colon key in LSD? Take a look at the thread again. It goes something like this:

You: I don't really like Sandpoint much.
Michael F: Joking response.
Kirth Gerson: Joking response.
Fletch: I agree, I don't like Sandpoint.
DarkArt: Here's why I like Sandpoint.
Kelvar Silvermace: Joking response to something on the thread from a couple pages ago.
Selk: Response to Kelvar Silvermace.
You: Everyone is a meany and your arguments are teh dumb.

Then you get a couple responses about how you were an ass for your post (because you were) and then we get back to joking. Prior to your "quit attacking me" post, not one attacking post had been directed your way.

Seriously, reread the thread and get some perspective.


I never said I didnt like Sandpoint; and my comments do not say that anywhere; I just wonder why people think it is amazing and am now a bit curious why some people want to comment that I ever implied I dont like it. No biggie to me; I really dont care; was just wondering if someone saw something in Sandpoint that I missed, but I guess not. Peeps can get as nasty as they want; I really dont care am just wondering what is so great about it and ignore the other stuff and only respond to you Sebastion as I respect your opinions though I know we rarely agree.


Interesting, are not most of these Dragon or Dungeon supplements rather than stand alone features? I subscribed to both Dragon and Dungeon, but wouldnt expect a few pages in a magazine to equal the work from a single release that focuses on the topic.

Coridan wrote:

As the first to claim Sandpoint is amazing I must chime in.

It is amazing. I've seen quite a few cities, and it is better than

Cauldron (Shackled City Adventure Path)
Diamond Lake (Age of Worms AP)
Sasserine (Savage Tide AP)
Freeport (The Everquest d20 city)
Ptolus (Monte Cook - This is an example of 'too much')
Saltmarsh (DMG 2)
And every example city in Cityscape.

Not saying they aren't all good cities, but Sandpoint = better. The NPCs are more lively and interesting the locations are just great (the brothel, the church, the old light). And the 'melting pot' atmosphere mixed in with some racial tensions, it's like a little New York City.


As far as Sandpoint not being amazing due to some swiss cheese holes, I can understand that perspective. Even in a fleshed out setting like Dark Sun, I recall being infuriated with reference to places that had nothing more than the name (I still enjoyed Dark Sun itself very much). I think many question some have had, though, such as the smuggling question, are actually answered in the 1st Pathfinder if read thoroughly (passing spot checks while doing so; the answer appeared in the fatman's feedbag entry). I think an important decision was made by the staff, noted in another thread, to start the campaign setting piece by piece and en media res instead of first putting out, say, a campaign booklet with all such info but without any adventures. I can see detractors, but this little taste of the world is enough to let me make the decision to continue subscribing with Pathfinder. Perhaps if I had players that routinely broke out of bounds, meta-gamed, or otherwise gave me a hard time, I might personally feel differently, but Sandpoint remains beautiful to me.

I'd suggest as one scenario to hold off from running the Pathfinder until more issues have been produced, as more cities and gods, etc. are introduced and fleshed out. For some of the encounters in Pathfinder 1, it likewise suggests that the timetables can be delayed/ are optional should a DM wish to wait for Pathfinder 2 (for story development) and/ or for the party to rise to an appropriate level. I'm personally keen on getting the Pathfinder Gazateer in January to have some more of the bigger picture in one convenient book. My current player so far has been completely satisfied with the story as presented. I have not had to come up with anything except now in regards to the printing of Pathfinder #2 since we're close to wrapping up this one.


Valegrim, as the third poster to this thread, I want to say you need to lighten up a bit!

It seems like you just don't like poor Coridan's choice of the word "Amazing" as the title for the thread. You think that Sandpoint is okay, but Amazing is too strong of a word.

As DarkArt points out, it's not that the setting is perfect.

But a lot of folks have found things they like about the town, so we come here "to do our fanboy thing". Which is kind of what forums are for.

I'v been playing D&D for decades, but I haven't been a DM much. My friends convinced me to step up and subscribe to Pathfinder. So I don't have a "DM's-eye view" of a lot of the other towns mentioned on the thread.

But I am looking forward to playing because I think that plenty of information has been provided to me so that I will have an easy time setting the scene for my players.

But in my opinion, the best part of this thread is how much staying power it has. It keeps veering into politics, and then someone cracks a joke, or tries to get back on topic, and then politics again. I keep coming back for the politics, actually. I think the "I like it too!" comments are actually in the minority. That cracks me up.

So, anyway, don't get caught up with the word "amazing" and just relax and enjoy one of the longest threads on the board.

Oh, and before I forget: Ninja!


Michael F wrote:

...just relax and enjoy one of the longest threads on the board.

Hehe. One of the longest?

Try this one: Three word game.


Valegrim wrote:
I never said I didnt like Sandpoint; and my comments do not say that anywhere; I just wonder why people think it is amazing and am now a bit curious why some people want to comment that I ever implied I dont like it.

[Begin English rant] I like Sandpoint, but not the term "amazing," because it means something other than what my wife's 16-year-old sister thinks it does (variously, "cool," "nifty," "fun," or "yummy"--as in "We're going to the beach? That would be amazing!" It might be fun, but not "amazing"). "Amazing" would imply that we are amazed--that we can't believe it. We can. James Jacobs gave us Scuttlecove and Sasserine and so forth; he's got a lot of cool ideas. [/end English rant]

I like the setting because the mundane, historical, and geographical details mesh in a manner that produces a place with a bit more internal consistency than is normally the case. It's complete enough that we know what's where (we're not just looking at a big map and saying, "Well, anything could be there"), and we've got an excellent idea of "who's who" in the place, and we've got all kinds of nifty gossip--some tangentially or not at all related to the AP, but all of it consistent with the history, location, and inhabitants.

At the sime time, it's open-ended enough that we can set our own adventures there without feeling like we're violating canon.

I've always used homebrew worlds--I went so far as to substitute places in my homebrew world for Diamond Lake, the Free City, and Alhaster when I ran the Age of Worms. But reading over Sandpoint, I actually felt like I wanted to keep it where it is, and try using James' campaign setting instead of mine. I don't have that feeling usually.


AMAZING
Causing great and sudden wonderment. Astonishing. Overwhelm someone with surprise. Tremendously impress someone. One can certainly be amazed if something unbelievable is achieved.

As you guys have said, I really don't feel AMAZED by Sandpoint either, but I do find it to be a superior setting. But then I don't object to the raving appreciation at all, understanding it to be the sort of hyperbole people usually fall into when they find something superior and want to tell everyone else how much they love it.

Can we start a new thread-jack now?

Dark Archive Bella Sara Charter Superscriber

Valegrim wrote:
I never said I didnt like Sandpoint; and my comments do not say that anywhere; I just wonder why people think it is amazing and am now a bit curious why some people want to comment that I ever implied I dont like it. No biggie to me; I really dont care; was just wondering if someone saw something in Sandpoint that I missed, but I guess not. Peeps can get as nasty as they want; I really dont care am just wondering what is so great about it and ignore the other stuff and only respond to you Sebastion as I respect your opinions though I know we rarely agree.

Damnit. I'm a sucker for praise, and now I feel bad for giving you a hard time.

I didn't have a problem with the content of your original post - it surprised me because I had been riding high on this Sandpoint is really cool vibe and you brought up some good points. I just didn't see (and still don't see) how you got so defensive so quickly given the responses given. Maybe it's just that you weren't in the same vibe as the poster who said "you can't say anything negative in this thread." However, I really think he was joking, and did not mean to actually shut you down for disagreeing.

Anyway, I'll quit disecting posts because it can get ridiculous fast. I just wasn't sure what got you so angry so fast in the posts that followed yours. You generally operate at your own Valegrim pace, semi-colons and all, and your reaction here was not what I would have expected generally or specifically from you.

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