I had a great Saudi barber for a while, who was very upset. Apparently, in Middle Eastern countries, being a barber is a very respected male profession. Now, he's moved to the states, and everybody thinks he's gay because of his job.
I had a great Saudi barber for a while, who was very upset. Apparently, in Middle Eastern countries, being a barber is a very respected male profession. Now, he's moved to the states, and everybody thinks he's gay because of his job.
Lots of barber shops around here (Northern California) have non-gay male barbers. I haven't heard that they get much attention with anyone thinking they're gay.
Lots of barber shops around here (Northern California) have non-gay male barbers. I haven't heard that they get much attention with anyone thinking they're gay.
Yes, but as Sebastian likes to point out, have you play-tested your theory?
Lots of barber shops around here (Northern California) have non-gay male barbers. I haven't heard that they get much attention with anyone thinking they're gay.Yes, but as Sebastian likes to point out, have you play-tested your theory?
Did my post get deleted or something? I don't see it there any more, even though I see this reply.
Anyway, yeah, some of them are married and stuff, and one of them (that I know of) is gay. I guess I just didn't get where the original poster of the barber thing was coming from.
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act as quick and dirty characters for players to do whatever with.lol I'm not even going to comment on where my mind went with this. As for making Valeros gay/bi, why not? Just imagine him and the other 3 sitting at a bar, looking around, and discussing the same prospects...
::shrug:: Maybe.
You know, IMHO, I pictured Valeros and Seoni as one "couple" and Meri and Kyra as another "couple". Not even romantic, just two eople who I would readily associate with one another. Val and Seoni are friends and collegues, and Meri and Kyra have a sort of "Laurel and Hardy" thing going on, where Meri does something stupid, and Kyra has to deal with it.
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act as quick and dirty characters for players to do whatever with.lol I'm not even going to comment on where my mind went with this. As for making Valeros gay/bi, why not? Just imagine him and the other 3 sitting at a bar, looking around, and discussing the same prospects...::shrug:: Maybe.
You know, IMHO, I pictured Valeros and Seoni as one "couple" and Meri and Kyra as another "couple". Not even romantic, just two eople who I would readily associate with one another. Val and Seoni are friends and collegues, and Meri and Kyra have a sort of "Laurel and Hardy" thing going on, where Meri does something stupid, and Kyra has to deal with it.
That's cool. I had no intention of my post being taken seriously :) I like how you have them paired up though and got me thinking if anyone else has consciously or unconsciously came up with relations based on the order we found out more about them, but that would be a topic for a different thread.
I guess I just didn't get where the original poster of the barber thing was coming from.
Fort Hood, Texas.
I guess I just didn't get where the original poster of the barber thing was coming from.Fort Hood, Texas.
Ha, well, there it is then!
I guess I just didn't get where the original poster of the barber thing was coming from.
Well....
You responded to my comment, but I was only relaying a story about a Saudi barber I knew, in response to Sect's comment about Kuwati barbers.
And I was only relaying the story to illustrate cultural differences.
Yes, people bothered my poor Saudi barber about being gay, because that's the stereotype we have in this country. I'm not saying the sterotype is valid, or that I believe it, or that I do or do not know male barbers and stylists who are gay, I was just relaying a story to illustrate cultural differences in perceptions about a particular profession.
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You know, IMHO, I pictured Valeros and Seoni as one "couple" and Meri and Kyra as another "couple". Not even romantic, just two eople who I would readily associate with one another. Val and Seoni are friends and collegues, and Meri and Kyra have a sort of "Laurel and Hardy" thing going on, where Meri does something stupid, and Kyra has to deal with it.
See, I pictured Valeros as straight--and completely sexually frustrated. The way I see it, Merisiel sees him as a brother. Kyra and he have been (very platonic) friends for a long time (he doesn't think of her in the romantic fashion, plus her crusader aspect is little difficult to get past). Seoni, would be a prospect, but between cultural differences, her mysticism, bizzare personality traits, etc. he can't figure her out--or decide if he should even try. Hitting on barmaid never works either because either he get guilt trips from the girls or the barmaids think he's a complete playboy with his own harem and won't give him the time of day. Sometimes having a gaggle of female friends is a real detriment to one's sex life.
You know, I think there's a difference in perception between a barber and a "stylist".
You can still find straight-up (literally) barber shops with the swirly pole thing outside and a bunch of dog-eared penthouses lying around for reading material. Do folks wonder about how those guys roll? Not so much. And then there's that movie with Ice Cube.
But if a guy works at a Salon where actual females show up, boom, the sterotype kicks in.
See, I pictured Valeros as straight--and completely sexually frustrated. The way I see it, Merisiel sees him as a brother. Kyra and he have been (very platonic) friends for a long time (he doesn't think of her in the romantic fashion, plus her crusader aspect is little difficult to get past). Seoni, would be a prospect, but between cultural differences, her mysticism, bizzare personality traits, etc. he can't figure her out--or decide if he should even try. Hitting on barmaid never works either because either he get guilt trips from the girls or the barmaids think he's a complete playboy with his own harem and won't give him the time of day. Sometimes having a gaggle of female friends is a real detriment to one's sex life.
Who's to say that it's always going to be this group of four iconics grouped together? Once all of them have been released, Paizo might mix and match the groups depending on whatever whims they choose. Val might not always be paired up with three women.
But, I guess for the course of RotRL . . . I like it.
See, I pictured Valeros as straight--and completely sexually frustrated. The way I see it, Merisiel sees him as a brother. Kyra and he have been (very platonic) friends for a long time (he doesn't think of her in the romantic fashion, plus her crusader aspect is little difficult to get past). Seoni, would be a prospect, but between cultural differences, her mysticism, bizzare personality traits, etc. he can't figure her out--or decide if he should even try. Hitting on barmaid never works either because either he get guilt trips from the girls or the barmaids think he's a complete playboy with his own harem and won't give him the time of day. Sometimes having a gaggle of female friends is a real detriment to one's sex life.Who's to say that it's always going to be this group of four iconics grouped together? Once all of them have been released, Paizo might mix and match the groups depending on whatever whims they choose. Val might not always be paired up with three women.
But, I guess for the course of RotRL . . . I like it.
There are also four iconics so far, but six covers that need making. They could do Karzoug, but that still leaves one cover wanting (plus they used Karz on the alternate volume one). Maybe more will be coming sooner rather than later?
I just wanted to throw in my two cents and not create another topic. From the moment I found out Paizo was losing Dragon and Dungeon, there were mixed emotions. While it was confirmed that the two great magazines would still be around was good news, Paizo had done such an amazing job with them that I wanted them to continue until....well forever. But I eagerly anticipated Pathfinder. Im glad that I was not disappointed. Pathfinder continue's a proud Paizo tradition of quality written material and art. I cant wait to run players through RotRL. As for the questionable content of gay NPC's and goblin eating children, all I have to say is that I leave it in Paizo's capable hands. I for one will continue to shell out money cause, frankly, its good stuff. Keep up the great work. Oh ya....just cause you guys aren't working on Dungeon anymore doesn't let anyone off the hook. Someone still owes me an updated (3.5 not this 4.0 crap) version of the Lost City.
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Are we even talking about Sandpoint anymore? I mean, we STARTED with Sandpoint, got into a huge debate about right of life and the morality of homosexuality for about four pages, then transitioned into homosexual characters, then burst out with a random discussion about barbers, and now talking about the iconics. Man, what?!
goblin eating children
Man, it's crazy the things kids will put in their mouths!
Are we even talking about Sandpoint anymore?
Just goes to show you how amazing Sandpoint is.
It is so amazing it can handle all of these topic changes. ;-)
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O_O Wow what a thread! I wish I would have found it earlier! I do want to say thought that Sandpoint is AWESOME. I really appreciate the fact that Paizo realizes that the "vulnerable" and "impressionable" youth are not the ones who will be shelling out the cash for this product! KUDOS TO YOU ALL PAIZO. I had high expectations for Pathfinder and they have been exceeded! Keep up the good work!
Are we even talking about Sandpoint anymore?Just goes to show you how amazing Sandpoint is.
Didn't I cover that about three pages ago? :P
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Going by that yardstick, anyone in the world is assuredly neutral. Face it, each lifestyle choice is considered amoral or controversial in some fringe of the world.
Defining whether a person is good or evil should be made without consideration of their personal lifestyle choices. This can not be disputed. People who make choices outside of what society historically views as acceptable can operate within society in the good or evil ways irregardless of their personal choices as they pertain to relationships or their values.
An ultimately evil person will pursue their goals in the same way an ultimately good person will. Their processes and motivations will be similar, but their actions and their chosen path will be vastly different. Good Cleric -- I want to save your soul to please my deity. Evil Cleric -- I want to take your soul to please my deity. Their motivations are the same, but the consequences of their actions will be different.
The qualifier of Law, Chaos and Neutral should be considered though. These identify a person's relationship with the society in which they live. One could say, well that means that one's Lawfulness or Chaotic ness will change as they enter and leave various societies will it not? The difference is the choice of the person. A person chooses to be Lawful, Chaotic or Neutral. Good and evil is more of a core belief and some might argue not necessarily a choice. You can not help the way you are "wired" but you can choose your actions. You actions are what outwardly define you. Your motivations may never be known or understood.
That is where the distinction should be made for those NPC who choose a lifestyle outside the norm of their community. Or at least a lifestyle that is viewed that way.
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I hate to interrupt to ask a real question, but... (ok, I don't, really)
If Sandpoint has 1200 inhabitants, and there's 59 numbered locations, not all of which are dwellings, where does everyone live? I'm assuming that almost all of the shops have living quarters above/behind them, but that still leaves a lot of unnamed people who have to live somewhere. Can I assume there are buildings not on the map, or are all of the non-numbered buildings dual family homes? There's roughly 100 of those unnumbered buildings.
That may seem unnecessary, but I'm trying to get a feel for the place. Is it a sparsely populated small town, or more crowded? Are there a lot of people on the streets, kids playing in the streets, etc?
Also, a couple key merchants that I think are missing: a potter and a tinker, and also a well. Where does everyone get their water? What do they put it in, and who repairs things the blacksmith doesn't? What about a dairy?
James, I do believe the answer to many of your questions are "outlying farms".
Yes and no, we were told the 1200 population does not include the farmlands, and I don't think the townsfolk go that far for water. The tinker and potter could be out there though, though I mostly put those out as suggestions for things to add to the town in the future.
If Sandpoint has 1200 inhabitants, and there's 59 numbered locations, not all of which are dwellings, where does everyone live? I'm assuming that almost all of the shops have living quarters above/behind them, but that still leaves a lot of unnamed people who have to live somewhere. Can I assume there are buildings not on the map, or are all of the non-numbered buildings dual family homes? There's roughly 100 of those unnumbered buildings. Also, a couple key merchants that I think are missing: a potter and a tinker, and also a well. Where does everyone get their water? What do they put it in, and who repairs things the blacksmith doesn't? What about a dairy?
The dairy we can safely relegate to the farms, I think. A potter, tinker, and cooper would be key town inhabitants, and your questions about living spaces are good ones... surely there aren't 8-10 people living in each building?
I don't have my copy in front of me; I'll have to look when I get home. Maybe we can make useful suggestions for which of the non-numbered buildings have the tinker's shop, etc. and maybe where the well is.
The dairy we can safely relegate to the farms, I think. A potter, tinker, and cooper would be key town inhabitants, and your questions about living spaces are good ones... surely there aren't 8-10 people living in each building?
I don't have my copy in front of me; I'll have to look when I get home. Maybe we can make useful suggestions for which of the non-numbered buildings have the tinker's shop, etc. and maybe where the well is.
Most inns would have their own well located somewhere on the premises. The stables and major production places too (glass works, brewery etc.)
Also, the noble houses would account for maybe 30(+) people each to staff them (cooks, maids etc.).
Creative Director
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I hate to interrupt to ask a real question, but... (ok, I don't, really)
If Sandpoint has 1200 inhabitants, and there's 59 numbered locations, not all of which are dwellings, where does everyone live? I'm assuming that almost all of the shops have living quarters above/behind them, but that still leaves a lot of unnamed people who have to live somewhere. Can I assume there are buildings not on the map, or are all of the non-numbered buildings dual family homes? There's roughly 100 of those unnumbered buildings.
That may seem unnecessary, but I'm trying to get a feel for the place. Is it a sparsely populated small town, or more crowded? Are there a lot of people on the streets, kids playing in the streets, etc?
Also, a couple key merchants that I think are missing: a potter and a tinker, and also a well. Where does everyone get their water? What do they put it in, and who repairs things the blacksmith doesn't? What about a dairy?
There's a lot more buildings in Sandpoint than the 59 numbered locations. The non-numbered buildings are all homes, and several of them (particularly downtown) are tenemants with more than one family living inside. If there's about 160 or so buildings in all, that indicates an average of 7.5 people per building. The noble houses to the south each have staffs of servants and cooks and butlers and all that; there's probably at least a dozen to two dozen people living in each of those four buildings (counting the noble families themselves).
There are a few tenements down on the waterfront as well; these are pretty packed with fishermen, laborers, transients, and the like. I didn't mark them on the map because they're pretty boring, but I figured these buildings have a dozen or two dozen folk living in them as well. They and the noble houses are what brings the average up to 7.5, since most homes that house one family have probably 4-5 people living inside.
An average family in Sandpoint is probably a mom, a dad, a few kids, and maybe a grandma and a grandpa. There's obviously houses in town that have only a few folks living in them, but most of them are also numbered locations. I wouldn't get too obsessed with how many people live where, but Sandpoint is certainly a crowded and vibrant city. It's pretty much THE happening place on the Lost Coast, after all!
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Also, a couple key merchants that I think are missing: a potter and a tinker, and also a well. Where does everyone get their water? What do they put it in, and who repairs things the blacksmith doesn't? What about a dairy?
There is no potter or tinker in town. Pottery gets imported from Magnimar, and is sold at any number of the stores or markets. There's also traveling tinkers who come to town weekly to fix things and do tinker stuff.
As for water... Sandpoint has a LOT of rainfall. Rainbarrels are all over the place to collect and store water (and to catch and drown the odd goblin). Additional water comes from the Turandarok River, or even Boggy Creek.
There are lots of dairy farms in the surrounding hinterlands, along with farms that do crops or other stuff.
Those barrels for rain had to come from somewhere, sure, but there's currently no cooper operating in town. At least, no established cooper. The carpenters can do some barrel work in a pinch, but like pottery and tinkers, the majority of the barrels Sandpoint uses are purchased from merchants and traders from Magnimar.
Looking at the map from the PDF, the potter needs access to a lot of water, so maybe along the river between buildings 14 and 25? The cooper would want to be close to the mill, which I can't remember the # of offhand...
I'm now thinking that the garrison would have its own well, and probably the glassworks. For town wells, maybe in the square outside the cathedral, and possible at Festival and Bishop street? Two wells isn't enough for a town this size, so there's probably others.
I wouldn't get too obsessed with how many people live where, but Sandpoint is certainly a crowded and vibrant city. It's pretty much THE happening place on the Lost Coast, after all!
Exactly the impression I was getting, thank you, that's the image I had in my mind.
I read your post after my other, I'll, um, forget that a cooper or potter ever existed. Even if I think one should move there real soon.
Sooner or later I'll remember that '=' in the quote tag, too.
As for water... Sandpoint has a LOT of rainfall. Rainbarrels are all over the place to collect and store water (and to catch and drown the odd goblin). Additional water comes from the Turandarok River, or even Boggy Creek.
Wouldn't the Turandarok be very brackish, at least at this point near town? Also, rain barrels are good for supplemental water, but are you saying it rains every day, or, at least, 1 or 2 inches every other day? There would still have to be cisterns, I would think. Maybe a well or two?
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As for water... Sandpoint has a LOT of rainfall. Rainbarrels are all over the place to collect and store water (and to catch and drown the odd goblin). Additional water comes from the Turandarok River, or even Boggy Creek.Wouldn't the Turandarok be very brackish, at least at this point near town? Also, rain barrels are good for supplemental water, but are you saying it rains every day, or, at least, 1 or 2 inches every other day? There would still have to be cisterns, I would think. Maybe a well or two?
The Turandarok might be... but that's what that road leading west over the river along the south bank is for; leads up to a point not far off the map where it's drinkable.
There's certainly wells (most of which double as cisterns) in town here and there, though—they're just not marked on the map. And keep in mind that in D&D land, clerics can cast purify water all the time. That's probably one of the public works that the acolytes at the cathedral (of which there are many) do quite often. And those rain barrels DO serve backup duty as small cisterns during the non-wet season.
The big thing keeping me from falling in love with Sandpoint as much of you have is that I can’t get my brain around the number of PC levels there are living in this town. Barbarian bouncers, Paladin brewers, Rogue bartenders, etc. And multiple levels of these classes each. It seems like the only person without a PC class level is the poor sod what got his face eaten.
I tried to justify it to myself by rationalizing it as a frontier town filled with adventurous settlers, but I can’t factor that in to the hero worship the PCs are supposed to experience after slaying a few goblins.
“That was amazing the way you faced down that goblin,” said the baker as he kneaded his lump of dough. “I haven’t seen courage like that since my wife fought off that dragon turtle that tried beaching here last year.”
There are other, minor things that I’ll be adjusting as per normal for any DM taking a published setting, but the townsfolk’s class levels will all be getting a major overhaul.
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I've encountered this problem in many modules. When the NPCs have put adventuring behind them, I downgrade their hit points and base to-hit values. They keep their skills and saves as a matter of flavor, but I don't want them overshadowing the combat mien of the leathery player characters. Otherwise every town would just erupt in Kung Fu Hustle antics.
Unless...Kung Fu Hustle: Sandpoint is what Paizo is secretly hoping for ;)
The big thing keeping me from falling in love with Sandpoint as much of you have is that I can’t get my brain around the number of PC levels there are living in this town. Barbarian bouncers, Paladin brewers, Rogue bartenders, etc. And multiple levels of these classes each. It seems like the only person without a PC class level is the poor sod what got his face eaten.
I tried to justify it to myself by rationalizing it as a frontier town filled with adventurous settlers, but I can’t factor that in to the hero worship the PCs are supposed to experience after slaying a few goblins.
“That was amazing the way you faced down that goblin,” said the baker as he kneaded his lump of dough. “I haven’t seen courage like that since my wife fought off that dragon turtle that tried beaching here last year.”
There are other, minor things that I’ll be adjusting as per normal for any DM taking a published setting, but the townsfolk’s class levels will all be getting a major overhaul.
I'm not sure if the NPC levels are out of wack, I would have to check the recomended levels for a town of 1,200 in the DMG, but overall they seem okay to me. I don't think the sheriff or the bouncers or the jewler's guards could be expected do their jobs in a town that size without a few levels.
That being said, the grocer with 7 levels of commoner got a raised eyebrow from me.
I do see your point that it seems a bit strange that a party of 1st level PCs would be able to make such an impressive showing of fighting some goblins that they would suddenly be famous in town. Because "everyone" is supposed to at the ceremony and there are a number of NPCs with better levels than the players.
I think it's a case of being in the right place at the right time. 15 minutes of fame and all that. The other folks with level just didn't manage to grab any spotlight. Crappy initiative rolls, I suppose. And a lot of the folks with character classes are "retired", so maybe they have age penalties to their stats and are just generally content to let the "next generation" handle things. "I'm too old for this $h!t, etc."
There's a current example you could look at: that scottish guy who helped out when the terrorist tried to blow up a car at the airport. From what I read, he didn't do anything super-human, about on par with cops, firemen or bystanders who help out at fires and car accidents, etc. But he's internationally famous; they had him show up for a 9/11 ceremony in NYC.
The big thing keeping me from falling in love with Sandpoint as much of you have is that I can’t get my brain around the number of PC levels there are living in this town. ...
Yeah, one of the biggest "what the ...?" moments I had was when I read that Aldern Foxglove was acting frightened when a 1st level goblin was attacking his dog. The only thing I can think of, is that he was unarmed at the time, though not having at least a dagger seems a bit unbelievable for me.
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NPCs, being mostly reasonable, will respond to threatening situations with a realistic fear of pain. PCs, being mostly unreasonable, do not fear pain and will engage situations in unrealistic, yet heroic, ways. Adventures would be pretty boring if they didn't.
Give an angry monkey a cleaver and most NPCs will run away from it, even if they have 20 hit points. It's a frikin' monkey! With a cleaver! PCs will engage it.
Pathfinder, and to a greater extent, all of GameMastery, takes the view that our readers are older than 13 years old and unprejudiced. If that's not the case or anyone is uncomfortable with that, Highlights magazine has been doing some bang-up work in the last 51 years (Goofus and Gallant and the animal search are still my favorites), they’ll do you right.
I love seeing things like this. "You don't agree with me, so you're 12." In this case it translates, "You don't agree with my progressive lack of bigotry, so I'll use bigotry on you."
Other variations on this include presuming low IQ scores, attacking race or creed, or any other form of hypocritical, unveiled bigotry. "You don't agree with me? Well, that because you're just a _________!" Though usually only ageism and high-IQ-elitism is acceptable on forums.
As for that as well as this entire controversy: Agendas shmegendas... could it be that everyone selfishly desires their own personal point of views to be shared by everyone? This very fact makes Sandpoint very conducive of roleplaying!
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So speaking out against bigotry makes someone a bigot? That's a neat, disingenuous and diffusive trick. Perhaps we can extend it to all matters of perceived injustice: those who act with violence against those who do violence are hypocrites, and those who act against racism are infringing upon peoples' personal beliefs, and those who support women's suffrage are infringing upon the right of the family to decide their politics as one entity.
I rather like your argument. It handily frames all previous fights for civil rights as infringments upon the precious conceit of other people's opinions.
/rant
Pathfinder, and to a greater extent, all of GameMastery, takes the view that our readers are older than 13 years old and unprejudiced. If that's not the case or anyone is uncomfortable with that, Highlights magazine has been doing some bang-up work in the last 51 years (Goofus and Gallant and the animal search are still my favorites), they’ll do you right.I love seeing things like this. "You don't agree with me, so you're 12." In this case it translates, "You don't agree with my progressive lack of bigotry, so I'll use bigotry on you."
I'm pretty sure Wes was just pointing out that Pathfinder is geared toward people over the age of 13, so therefore PG-13 material is appropriate. He was saying that if you feel that you or someone you know should not be exposed to such material, that Highlights magazine is a great alternative. I don't think he was trying to insult anyone. And he certainly wasn't saying that if you don't agree with him, you are 12. He was merely pointing out that the material was appropriate for who they were trying to reach.
First off, let me just say that I am very impressed by Pathfinder, so far. I expected nothing else from the fine folks here and you can count on me as a subscriber as long as I can afford it.
I love Sandpoint, the NPC's and the adventure. There is something undeniably classic about this adventure. I can't wait to run it, if time permits. The town is well fleshed out and would dovetail nicely with any campaign in a pinch. I love the imagery of this coastal town and hope it doesn't get destroyed in later chapters. I already feel close to many of the inhabitants.
I very much like the return to roots that this campaign arc represents in so many ways and applaud the artistry of the folks involved in creating it to no end. Yay Paizo!
One "quick" chime in on the homosexuality/etc debate propagated in the earlier posts.
First off I agree with the poster who pointed out the longstanding tradition of midwifery involving both prophylactic and abortive birth control. The reason it wasn't widely spoken of is that it was mostly a private matter involving women. The ancient Egyptians had dozens of methods of birth control and any women from any walk of life were permitted and encouraged to avail themselves of them, particularly in cases where an unwanted pregnancy could jeopardize a marriage or familial relation. Only prohibited by a power hungry church (I am criticizing the business, not the religion, btw) who wanted to relieve women of many of their inconvenient freedoms, it becomes more of an issue of law or chaos than good or evil.
Similarly homosexuality is a difficult bailiwick. No matter how you look at it, whether you "approve" or "disapprove", you have to admit that there have been "evil" and "good" gay folks throughout history. Being gay doesn't determine your moral outlook.
Again, it is a matter of law or chaos. Is homosexuality strictly prohibited in your culture? Then being homosexual, especially outwardly and openly evinces the rejection of a law you feel to be ethically unsound. It doesn't make you evil...In that case the only lawful act would be to leave that society and find one where it was accepted.
I find it impossible to accept the notion that a god who loved us enough to create and sustain us in spite of our hubris and disdain for his/her works would arbitrarily damn you to hades because of bedfellows. Or bedding fellows.
Just one obnoxiously long poster's opinion.
-Syl
Being alive just means that they are some organism, in this case a parasite.
Just a small point of contention...
It's not a parasite. The definition of parasite is not consistent with what that organism is.New Feats
General Parasite
Prerequisite: Must be an organism that lives on or in an organism of another species, known as the host.
Benefit: You obtains nutriment from the body of the host.
Normal: You obtain nutriment by just plain killing and/or devouring things... unless you're a plant that isn't a trap for bugs.
Humanoid Parasite
Prerequisite: Must be a person who does not give any useful or proper return for aid, as one who lives on the hospitality of others.
Benefit: You don't have to pay for food, shelter, clothing or luxuries.
Normal: You have a job.
Special: This feat automatically applies to all babies & children and most teenagers & college students. If the DM rules that an embyro or fetus is a person, then they automatically gain this feat... but then they're a person... so...
Greek Parasite
Prerequisite: Must be a Greek person, must provide amusing or impudent conversation, flattering remarks, etc.
Benefit: You receive free meals.
Special: Boys with a mentor receive this feat for free... and I guess everyone's OK with that...
I'm pretty sure Wes was just pointing out that Pathfinder is geared toward people over the age of 13, so therefore PG-13 material is appropriate. He was saying that if you feel that you or someone you know should not be exposed to such material, that Highlights magazine is a great alternative. I don't think he was trying to insult anyone. And he certainly wasn't saying that if you don't agree with him, you are 12. He was merely pointing out that the material was appropriate for who they were trying to reach.
Perhaps. If this is the case I apologize... otherwise :P on all y'all! <scoots away>
It's a frikin' monkey! With a cleaver! PCs will engage it.
Do you recommend marquise or princess for cleaver wielding monkeys?
So speaking out against bigotry makes someone a bigot?
Wow. You totally took what I said in the worst possible way.
Try to understand my point and not the one you just ascribed to me. You don't stop bigotry by attacking with bigotry; you can't stop hatred with hatred. Hate only begets more hate. Being rude or insulting doesn't help anything. All you do is alienate the person you're attacking.
This isn't just to say "play nice." Using insults and bluntness could lead to a bullheaded reluctancy to change viewpoints. An intelligent argument wasn't used but rather a unneccessary blow to the person's ego... all in an attempt to force the change of viewpoint. It's intellectual bullying.
In understanding that all of us want our views shared, we should be more understanding of the human that expresses them instead of thinking we're any better than them. We're all the same, in that we all want our viewpoints to be the best most truthy ones ever! I'm not saying that a bad or hateful viewpoint should be respected at all... I'm saying the person should be respected and you can respect that person by arguing against their viewpoint reasonably and tactfully.
Maybe I'm guilty myself of misinterpretation. To me, it certainly sounded like the person was reducing people who "can't handle" the homosexuality or abortion issues down to children. If not, again, I apologize, but if so, he was segregating the other person into a group that I took to mean that he thinks should be scorned as idiots who can't read anything above Highlights. This act is not in agreement with me.
In understanding that all of us want our views shared, we should be more understanding of the human that expresses them instead of thinking we're any better than them. We're all the same, in that we all want our viewpoints to be the best most truthy ones ever! I'm not saying that a bad or hateful viewpoint should be respected at all... I'm saying the person should be respected and you can respect that person by arguing against their viewpoint reasonably and tactfully.
I totally agree with you, as I think arguments reduced to name-calling and badmouthing techniques are not in anyway helpful, and reflect poorly more on the character of the one doing the insulting than the person being insulted.
Maybe I'm guilty myself of misinterpretation.
And you get major points from me for admitting the possibility of your own error. While I agree that there have definitely been posts in this thread resembling what you are talking about, I really do think this wasn't one of them. Based on Wes's posts in general, I don't think he is the type to engage in that type behavior (aside from the occasional snarky comments we are all guilty of at times). Plus his comments should be viewed in the context that the subject of Pathfinder's intended audience has come up quite a bit in this thread, and as an editor of said publication he would be one to address that.
In short, I agree with you mostly, and I appreciate your willingness to look at your own possible misunderstandings. That takes character.
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My response was a little strong. I'm sorry for that Michael.
I do understand what you're saying -- as much as anyone can claim to understand when they're not in agreement -- but I think you're too respectful of other people's opinions regardless of their quality. Certainly they're allowed to have them, but it seems like you're advocating a system of case by case epiphany as a system of social change. I can't think of any civil liberties that have been achieved by an enlightened acquiescence of their detractors (not a huge fan of the word, but it'll work here). It requires a little fight, and perhaps some intellectual bullying.
Speaking of forcing a change of viewpoint, what do you think of calling in the National Guard to allow black children to attend white schools in the 1960s? I think of it as a harsh education.
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I'm a little alarmed that I wrote that first paragraph, but there you go. I guess I'm becoming more militant in my old age.