Luurv it!!
Wow! What an unfortunate page break!
It ended up ok. I think I did surprise them that he was a useful NPC, and they were all like, "stay back stay back it's undead", and he's like "not in my graveyard! Sarenrae says git!"
I totally blew making a certain noble look like a tool though. Two of the characters were raised very poor, so him running around with menservants carrying his gear was novel to them. I apparently don't play creepy well. Moving on!
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You know, I think *almost* every group thinks Aldern's a tool. Useplanb's. Mine. Gluttony's. Only RidingBulls's group had any use for him.
I think he's *supposed* to be disliked as a useless fop. Otherwise why would 90% of all gaming groups respond to him that way?
My group didn't see him as a useless fop. They ignored him except for the money he offered, and then ignored him again. What happened afterward? Icing. ^_^
The group ninja Knowledge (Local)'ed Aldern as soon as he invited them to the boar hunt, rolled super high and found out about his haunted mansion. He was suspicious of him the entire time, and then when we started book 2, they would not leave the room while I was prepping and saw the map that said "Foxglove Manor." I was pretty agitated that session.
My first group hasn't expressed any particular opinion on Aldern Foxglove, but they did enjoy the boar hunt with him. He has since de-camped for other places, and - on a _totally_ unrelated note :) - the dwarven bard is now missing his portable battering ram. We have a serious case of envy here ... :) The bard was the one PC who didn't get knocked down to -hp at any point during the hunt. (The mean GM - me - used a dire board instead of a regular one.)
My second group has only just completed the first set of combats, and have yet to live the high life of "big damn heroes" in Sandpoint. However, one PC (a swashbuckler-like character) did express an interest in pursuing the social connection with Aldern.
In both cases, I'm looking forward to future developments. *cue GM laughter* :)
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Kairos: If you've not finished Foxglove Manor yet, you could pull a twist.
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My group didn't find Aldern "useless" - more like an eccentric coward. He was cowering behind a barrel during the goblin attack and he wasn't very helpful during the boar hunt - when a second boar showed up, he withdrew from the fight. He made up for it by funding a big party at the Rusty Dragon. At the time they found him just another interesting local (but they didn't ask too many questions either - a confrontation between Ameiko and her father, some drama with the daughter of a local shopkeeper and the arrival of a well known ranger distracted them.)
Of course I have departed subtly from the AP as written. Sometime after Aldern left town but before the group headed out to Thistletop, they received a "summons" from Madame Mvashti (one of the players is Varisian.) This gave me a chance to talk about Sandpoint's origins and introduce the trouble with prophesy (Age of Lost Omens, etc.) She wanted to check out the "new heroes" and ask them to leverage their new friendship to ask Aldern about his missing wife... He left town before they had a chance to follow up on that and then Glassworks and Thistletop became their focus.
I also have changed the obsession structure - none of the pc's really fit the bill, I wasn't at all confident I could pull it off and I didn't think my players would find it interesting. And if I ever so much as hinted some of their gear was missing, they'd obsess over that to the exclusion of everything else. I've changed the obsession to a hatred of Sandpoint, so his notes target the Mayor and other leaders in town (such as the head of the carpenters guild who couldn't/refused to force anyone to work on fixing his house.) He blames Sandpoint for his current predicament, forcing him into a deal with the Seven and even the death of his wife. I'll have to change a couple haunts in the manor but otherwise it should work. Indeed the pc's are the only people he doesn't hate - they actually saved him. That's why he avoids them while hunting greed sacrifices and initially will plead for them to save him before His Lordship loses out to the Skinsaw Man. It also never made sense to me for Hemlock to turn the investigation over to the pc's when they are directly implicated in the crime even if with an obvious frame job. It still doesn't make much sense for Hemlock to abdicate to the pc's but at least this way it's not completely insane.
Should I let the Portal of Greed's mechanism be discernible by detect secret doors?
Yes. Detect Secret Door text (Core, p. 268.)
"The amount of information revealed depends on how long you study a particular area or subject.
1st Round: Presence or absence of secret doors.
2nd Round: Number of secret doors and the location of each. If an aura is outside your line of sight, then you discern its direction but not its exact location.
Each Additional Round: The mechanism or trigger for one particular secret portal closely examined by you."
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I've just started running Burnt Offerings (Anniversary Edition), and I'm having difficulties envisaging Ezakien Tobyn. He was meant to be a cleric of Desna, a CG goddess of fun, freedom and luck, and was well loved by everyone in Sandpoint.
However, he seems to have behaved like a complete dick to his adopted daughter, in a way that I would describe as very Lawful and anti-freedom, showing no compassion when she gets pregnant and forcing her to behave in a way that more fits a highly moralising religion.
The players have pretty much decided that he was nasty (they started questioning Naulia's 'death' as soon as Tobyn's remains were stolen, and on hearing the story, decided that she had burnt the church in revenge against her nasty father and was probably now behind the new events), and I have a lot of trouble disagreeing with their conclusions (they've now just captured Tsuto and his notes, so their suspicions have been confirmed).
Has anyone come up with a reason for why Tobyn behaved like he did, that is consistent with him being a cleric of Desna? It doesn't really affect the game, but I'd like to settle things in my mind.
Thanks,
Sam.
There aren't any good answers here - at least that I have found. Some people are better at their profession than at their personal lives. Some people are better ministers than parents. Could be that being a good priest of Desna did not help him be a good father to a daughter. But we should also acknowledge we only have tidbits of information. The AP's narrative and her diary paint only one side of the story. Nualia appears to have been bullied or harassed but we don't know how often this occurred, we don't know what kind of person Nualia was before fleeing (given how she ends up, she may not have been that pleasant to be around) and we don't know that Tobyn knew the level of harassment she was enduring. Sadly, parents often don't know. Only a couple incidents of poor treatment are described but we don't know how frequent other incidents were. Could be those were the only examples and while they may have indelibly marked her, most people in her life may have been completely unaware. We don't know why Tobyn isolated her during the pregnancy - could be he was trying to protect her and it could be he was trying to pressure her into revealing the father. (Which is not to say those are great reasons.)
To complete my cop-out answer, you'll need to decide for yourself why Tobyn behaved as he did based on how you want your pc's to react to Nualia and how you believe being a cleric of a particular diety drives your behavior on a personal level and daily basis. Tobyn isn't critical the rest of the AP so your answer is really about the kind of story you want to tell.
My pc's came to much the same conclusion as yours - they started an investigation into Nualia after Tobyn's bones were stolen and they pieced together the pregnancy and childbirth stories by digging around and making successful diplomacy checks (aided by their "hero" status and that one of them was a Cleric of Saranrae who trained at the temple in Sandpoint.) I did not dissuade them from their assessment of Tobyn since it was consistent with the facts they possessed. Their sympathy for Nualia (to the limited extent they had any) was erased as they discovered how completely she embraced Lamashtu (and that she was nuttier than a fruitcake.)
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Latrecis, are you actually playing in my group? *grins* We must have very similar players...
As to your question, Samuel Penn:
I see him as an embittered (grumpy old) man and far removed from daily, normal down-to-earth life; he's a scholar: theory, books, religion, philosphising--that's his world.
Nualia was his "once in a life time project"; sent to him by his goddess and he was given the assignment to groom her for priesthood and send her to Windsong Abbey (my musings, dunno if supported by "canon").
And over time... everything falls apart:
His ward, at first not accepted as a divine exemplar but mocked at by mere children, then she expresses reluctance, even aversion of being sent to Windsong, rebels at the thought of being brought up by him, a priest of Desna, and finally she's "soiled" by pregnancy.
Think about it, if my assumption about Tobyn are true, this will confuse/shock him mightily.
An analysis by him of what went wrong might look like this:
A) Did Desna fail (in choosing him as foster parent, or Nualia as her "chosen")? Unthinkable.
B) Did he fail? Surely not.
C) Did Sandpoint fail? Might be... Reaction: multiply efforts in preaching Desna's way to the community (and Nualia, too!)
D) Did his ward fail? ... must be the case as all other possibilities are wrong or too elusive...
I think, he opted for C): indoctrination! (Repent your sins, Nualia, prove your worth..., etc.).
He's totally blind and insensitive to what Nualia needs: a loving, caring (foster) parent unreceptive to what she might actually want: making her own decisions.
Ruyan.
Also, Tobyn may have been NG instead of CG. The core rules allow a cleric to be one alignment step off the deity's base alignment.
... Did JJ decide that the deity/cleric alignment relationship worked any differently in Golarion?
In Golarion, Clerics who aren't the same alignment as their deity aren't very good Clerics. They should be the same alignment.
I don't know if this is his extension or just my own, but only PCs should be a step away, and as outliers.
thats not true kairos, clerics on golarion have same alignment rules for cleric as else where NPC or PC. Shattered Star has a NPC LN cleric of zon-kuthon
Alright, I would just like to point out the word "should" in my statement and "I don't know if this is his extension or just my own." In the latter case, I'm not necessarily wrong.
The rules for Clerics in the CRB are world neutral and JJ is pretty adamant that Clerics *should* be the same alignment, but couldn't get enough support for the CRB change from 3.5. And there are always exceptions, especially if its important for the story they want to tell.
So since Burnt Offerings was written by James Jacobs, I'm pretty sure he'll match alignment.
Edit: Just realized I'm confusing "Clerics must follow a deity" with "Match deity's alignment." Pretty sure he just said he prefers them to match alignment.
honestly, considering its a dead NPC that is never seen or fought and is just there as exposition, i don't think he thought that far down the road:)
and for the record i've known plenty of church officials and ministers be super nice and everything to everyone else then dump a load of s&!+ on their wives and kids when the flock isn't around.
and for the record i've known plenty of church officials and ministers be super nice and everything to everyone else then dump a load of s@** on their wives and kids when the flock isn't around.
I'd appreciate if you didn't make generalities like that. I know "plenty" who aren't like that.
I do as well, my dad being one of them, a minister and all, he married my wife and i, coolest guy in the world IMO:)
but yes i have known plenty that have been real pieces of work.
i wasnt out to offend just to point out that alignments of dead npcs is highly subjective if it isnt outright stated.
and i see how my earlier post came off as combative, sorry that wasnt my intent either:)
Oh, thanks, I appreciate that. I try not to be too combative as well and apologize for getting worked up.
Its all good:) what i was trying to say i guess, is you can be good person at heart and still have moments of weakness, fear, possessiveness, etc. and when you are the person that gets everyone's problems unloaded unto but really have no one you personally can go to, then those feeling are exacerbated and build up, and tragically then projected onto those that you have a private relationship with, such as wife and kids.
so while he might've been CG, helped homeless people, etc. he was still human with faults that he couldnt really show in public.
Fleshed out with that kind of detail, I definitely agree with you.
I'm reposting this here, I believe it's more appropriate and maybe someone else will find it useful =)
My party:
Argos - halfling bard dawnflower dervish (currently level 4)
Barbel - half elf ranger with longbow (currently level 3)
Gimmistramo - gnome pyromaniac sorcerer (currently level 4)
Roff - dwarf crusader cleric (currently level 4)
A little briefing on how the run on Thistletop went so far:
First day they went with Shalelu through the briars maze. They defeated all the goblins, included Gogmurt and Tangletooth. They rested on the forest.
The next session started with only two players, Argos and Gimmistramo, with Shalelu, and Roff starting a bit later. They killed the commandos and the dogs from outside the fort, and cleaned it, except from the throne room.
The following session the entire party + Shalelu defeated Ripnugget and the rest, and decided to bring the chief alive to Sandpoint to interrogate him. They rested in town.
Yet another session: they returned to Thistletop (without Shalelu), defeated the two ghouls that turned up as random encounter, and went to the island. I locked the outer door, added commandos to the towers, and got Bruthazmus shooting arrows from the tower to the half elf, and then to go inside to warn Lyrie and Tsuto (who is still alive). They killed the goblins, got inside, killed Lyrie rather quickly (in part because I forgot to use mirror image *facepalm*) and defeated Tsuto and tied him. Lyrie still managed to complicate their lives a bit: the cleric got -4 to her STR and a sundered hammer, heh.
The ranger missed (again) the following session: the rest defeated the tentamort, 2 yeth hounds, the four wives and allied with Orik. They called the guards (they told the Sheriff to send three of his men after them after a while) to babysit them while they sleep (yes, INSIDE Thistletop) and locked themselves inside the prison.
So, right now I have three, possibly four players, with a cleric that basically can't do any damage, but totally rested. They won't bring Orik nor the guards with them (and I won't allow it). On the other corner I have Nualia, Bruthazmus and a yeth hound.
I want the fight to be tough, but I do not want to TPK them. I was thinking to maximize everyone's HP, maybe adding another yeth hound. Maybe Nualia will be expecting them in the deck, with Bruthazmus coming a few rounds later on a surprise attack from the back.
What do you think, guys? Any suggestion, thought, advice is welcomed.
Thank you very much!!!
Cheers,
Nyn
Guys, another question, this time regarding Nualia's attack. Let's say that the first round she decides to make a full round attack with sword + claw. She has Fury of the Abyss, divine favor, ferocious attack and uses Power attack. Is this correct?
+1 bastard sword +11 (1d10 + 8/19-20)
Attack: +3 cleric BAB, +2 fighter BAB, +2 FotA, +3 STR, +1 divine favour
Dmg: +3 STR, +2 ferocious strike, +2 FotA, +1 divine favour
claw +6 (1d6 +8)
Attack: +3 cleric BAB, +2 fighter BAB, +2 FotA, +3 STR, +1 divine favour, -5 secondary attack
Dmg: +3 STR, +2 ferocious strike, +2 FotA, +1 divine favour
If I'm not mistaken, her ferocious strike must be activated before she attacks (and if she misses it's lost), so I believe a much wiser strategy would be use it only with her sword, to take full advantage of the power. But I apply the bonus here anyway because I'm only trying to understand the stat block.
Thank you!!!!
Cheers,
Nyn
EDIT: She doesn't qualify to Power Attack, so I eliminated it, and corrected the enhancement bonus that doesn't stack (FotA+magic sword)
I did the same thing. But my players decided to stay in the door frame and not move, so it was pointless u.u
Weapon Focus gives her a +1 to her attack, so +12 to hit with the Bastard Sword.
As Nualia's claw is a secondary attack, wouldn't the damage only get +1 from STR? So, 1d6+6?
@RMcD, I've been using this compiled errata document. Last updated on May 23.
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Fty0tllqWqNzwxlKtD-2zSIAAzAqlpjzIrvroxY zjTs/edit#
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#1: Welcome to the forums! Congratulations on choosing the "best" section of them all! :-P
#2: Allow me to waste 20 hours of your life: linky
More seriously, you are in absolutely the right place, but you're going to find that there's a certain time commitment to finding the information you need.
- The "Community Created Stuff" thread is solid gold, but it's 800 posts.
- There are multiple REALLY good campaign journals running: Running Bull (and Tomi, of course), Useplanb's, Gluttony's (OK, on rare occasions), mine (heh heh), and others. They help show how other GMs handled situations you might run into. I had the misfortune to pass most of my fellow GMs, but I still love seeing how other GMs handle events.
- If you have a specific question, ask right here. There are several of us whose jobs are low-key enough that we monitor the threads on an hourly basis and can offer advice/insight as to what we would do in such a situation.
- Have fun! If you post to the rules/advice forums, you'll get endless arguments. If you post to off-topic discussions, you're on your own. Here in the Rise of the Runelords section, you'll find a friendly, supportive community that really wants you to run a fantastic game.
Welcome!
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No! Don't click on that link, Taddels! We'll lose you forever!!!
Seriously, though, go ahead and read it - NobodysHome's thread is a blast. It's also quite long, but an entertaining read. The clarifications threads are also useful, but like most of the worthwhile stuff on this board, you're going to have to do a lot of digging.
Onto your real questions!
If you can only find three players, then you'll probably need to give them some help. If one of the players feels up to it, they could play a second character, but I find that usually means there's two PCs with half-personalities. A better plan is one that I'm sure NH will second: a GMPC. Have the party make up characters as they will, and you end up playing a fourth character. It's a little harder on you, but you're already playing a bunch of people - what's one more?
Introducing new PCs is always a question. Sometimes it's easy. "As you're heading towards Thistletop, you hear the sounds of battle up ahead. Someone comes rushing down the road to you." Hey, it's the new player with his PC, and he's trying to get some help, since some goblins just jumped him, and they're on his tail! Sometimes it's harder though. "So, there you are, in Foxglove Manor..." Times like those, it might be easier to have them come in a few sessions later. If this happens, and you need suggestions, then we'd definitely be able to help brainstorm.
Roleplaying's tricky, especially if you have new players. (I'm assuming new players, since you asked about encouraging RP.) One thing I can suggest is to use the campaign traits - it gets the players thinking about Sandpoint and how their characters could interact with several of its citizens. Get them invested in the world, and they'll start asking questions about it. Questions are good, it means they're interested in where things could be going. And if you don't know an answer, don't be afraid to make something up! Don't worry about canon for the most part. As long as you get the broad strokes, you can flub a minor detail here and there, and the players will never be the wiser.
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Since NobodysHome set the bar high, I'll try to be helpful and clue you in on an ancient GM secret: if you would like your players to role-play, do it yourself. If you start speaking as the NPC's, there's a chance your players will play along.
If you meant -how do I get the players to start making decisions and taking actions like their characters would: let the system work for you. Use the Players Guide to the AP (free download) and the campaign traits to suggest things about the pc's background. Ask the players to make up something about their character - where they are from or why they became a <blank> in the first place? If they want to write up backgrounds, great but 1 or 2 phrases will do to start. And if they're not sure, let them start without but encourage them to add detail as they play and encounter Sandpoint for the first time. The trick is to not pressure them into performing but instead give them a chance to take their imagination out for a drive. And don't stymie them with your own preconceptions - if they have what seems like an outlandish idea, don't nix it right away instead play off it, see how you could use it or morph it into something that works for you. And always ask yourself the question - what would it harm to let the half-orc barbarian know how to read elvish even if his Int and class skills don't align? If its a blatant munchkin retcon so he can use the magical bastard sword they just found, then no but if he was captured as a teen by elves and kept "imprisoned" for three years while they tried to reform him, just roll with it. Other GM secret: it's their story too.
I need to figure out how to do multiple +1's on a post. Latrecis is dead-on.
If you are foolish enough to follow my link, you'll see page after page of character background. That was all me.
The paladin had the most robust background: "She's a drow who was rescued as a baby by a paladin of Sarenrae and raised as a paladin."
Seriously. It was a few sentences more than that. The sorcerer's entire background story for me was, "I don't know. Make something up!"
So when Latrecis says, "A phrase or two," that's really all you need to start building visceral, real PCs who can interact with a visceral, real world.
EDIT: And stop calling us "ancient"! We're "well-aged". Like cheese. Or wine. Or rotted meat...
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Technically the reference was to the age of the secret, not the age of the GM's. Though if the shoe fits...
And given you revealed on another recent thread just how long you've been at this (longer than I have but not by much) the shoe looks pretty comfy ;)
Dot
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I did a GMPC myself, but within only 3 sessions I gave up that idea and asked one of my players to play that NPC. He will play his PC the way he did, and in the background he will play my former GMPC. I'll find this a lot easier and he will only have to do technical stuff with her (level up, combats...). I won't ask him to actually role play this NPC, and I'll be able to focus on the game and all the aspects regarding it.
@NobodysHome : I'll read your thread about your campaign, it will be a lot of fun I'm sure ! :) I also started Tomi's, but took a break. I should restart his also very soon.
I really like the youtube videos also (is it my turn yet)...
@RMcD, I've been using this compiled errata document. Last updated on May 23.
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Fty0tllqWqNzwxlKtD-2zSIAAzAqlpjzIrvroxY zjTs/edit#
The link unfortunately doesn't work. Does anyone know of another source of errata compiled from this thread?
I found the link here:
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2oj6e&page=6?Rise-of-the-Runelords-Annivers ary-Edition-Errata#261
I have a technical question. Please remember I'm new to pathfinder :)
I prepare for when the pcs will go to thistletop and I see Grogmurt, the druid goblin, has a wand of produce flame. I've read about wands and I wonder : How is Grogmurt able to use that wand ?
1- He doesn't have the spell Produce Flame
2- He doesn't have the use magic device skill (at least 1 rank would be necessary to make the DC 20 check)...
Do I miss something ?
I have a technical question. Please remember I'm new to pathfinder :)
I prepare for when the pcs will go to thistletop and I see Grogmurt, the druid goblin, has a wand of produce flame. I've read about wands and I wonder : How is Grogmurt able to use that wand ?
1- He doesn't have the spell Produce Flame
2- He doesn't have the use magic device skill (at least 1 rank would be necessary to make the DC 20 check)...Do I miss something ?
Yes; #1 is a common misconception.
He doesn't have to HAVE the spell, he has to be capable of casting it.
Since Produce Flame is a druid spell, he could cast it if he spent the time to prepare it.
Therefore, he's allowed to use a wand of Produce Flame, even if he has not prepared that particular spell for the day.
(A better example is that a 6th-level sorcerer could use a wand of Fireball even if he or she did not select the spell, simply because he or she COULD HAVE selected the spell when he or she got to 6th level...)
From the PRD:
Wands use the spell trigger activation method. This is under Magic Items/Wands in the CRB.
Spell trigger activation is similar to spell completion, but it's even simpler. No gestures or spell finishing is needed, just a special knowledge of spellcasting that an appropriate character would know, and a single word that must be spoken. Spell trigger items can be used by anyone whose class can cast the corresponding spell. This is the case even for a character who can't actually cast spells, such as a 3rd-level paladin. The user must still determine what spell is stored in the item before she can activate it. Activating a spell trigger item is a standard action and does not provoke attacks of opportunity. This is on the general Magic Items page in the CRB.
I would add that the user of a wand has to know or figure out what the trigger word is. It should probably not be a word the user might use in normal conversation. See the discussion of "command words" on the Magic Items page in the CRB. :-)
Use Magic Device is, generally speaking, a skill for classes who are not normally trained (as part of their class training) in using the device in question. Fighters or Barbarians for example.
So in the example of the 6th-level sorcerer, if he was at 5th level instead, then he would have to use the magic device skill because he would not be able (at that level) to cast that spell ?
So in the example of the 6th-level sorcerer, if he was at 5th level instead, then he would have to use the magic device skill because he would not be able (at that level) to cast that spell ?
No; Ed corrected me. Even though a 3rd-level paladin can't cast spells, he can use a wand for any spell on his spell list.
I was incorrect in my statement that there's a level requirement.
Ed's quote is much better:
"anyone whose class can cast the corresponding spell".
So a 1st-level wizard can use a wand to cast a 4th-level wizard spell, no problemo.
oh ok, thanks ! :)
Speaking of wands, can PCs spellcraft a wand usage? I'm thinking of the Goblin Warchanter with the silent image wand in the throne room. A little more effective if the PC's don't know he cast an illusion. I ask because I believe spellcraft requires you to either see the somatic components or hear the verbal components, and a wand would presumably cut out both.