Not to mention that WotC can bring some serious pressure on Paizo if they really wanted to. WotC could sell to distributers at a discount as long as they don't carry Paizo products. Plus there are other dirty anti-competition practices that other companies have done in the past that could be enough to pressure Paizo to tell out to WotC (for less then their initial offering).
Granted, stuff like that is illegal, but by the time the courts act the smaller company usually either out of business or has sold out by then.
I also purchased a delightful game from Firefly Games, "Faery's Tale," that my daughter and her friends (and wife) adore.
I just ordered Faery’s Tale. My soon to be five year old has expressed an interest in ‘playing pretend’. She also loves fairies.
Role playing games. Bringing fathers and daughters closer since 2008.
Contributor
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I also purchased a delightful game from Firefly Games, "Faery's Tale," that my daughter and her friends (and wife) adore. That game helps me remember what roleplaying was all about when I was wide-eyed at the first magic sword my character found!
I just ordered Faery’s Tale. My soon to be five year old has expressed an interest in ‘playing pretend’. She also loves fairies.
Role playing games. Bringing fathers and daughters closer since 2008.
Funny. I was just having the same thoughts... which is why I ran the search for "Faery's Tale" on the message boards... which led me here. This thread has prompted me to reflect on things. I apologize for the long post that follows, but I hope it adds something to the discussion.
I'm involved in the Pathfinder Playtest and am thoroughly enjoying being a part of this new venture. However, I am also on the verge of introducing my 6yo twin daughters to RPGs via Firefly Games' "Faery's Tale" game. I have begun to realize that most of the discussion about the Pathfinder rules pulls me farther and farther away from what I have always truly loved about roleplaying... the storytelling.
I have spent so much time and energy thinking and arguing (in the positive sense of that word) about whether an ability is balanced or a skill adequately simulates a particular concept that I've almost forgotten what was great about RPGs when I first started. I'm also realizing that many of us "gamers" are doing the same thing.
I've been playing pen & paper RPGs for 21 years (with most of that time spent solely on D&D--starting with 2nd Edition after a brief foray into a little-known system based on the Darksword Trilogy by Weiss & Hickman). My memories of those early days are of learning the basics of the rules and using them to tell fantastic stories about characters who grew and developed. They were extensions of my friends and me, and through them we explored broad concepts of morality, honor, and bravery...facing world-changing challenges just because we could.
As I got older and went off to college, I met people who have become greats in the RPG industry. I won't bother to name-drop, but I will say that Blacksburg, Virginia produced a cluster of roleplaying game notables in the early- to mid-1990s and I got the opportunity to game with some awesome people and playtest some really cool games in their early stages. I even got into writing for RPGs like Earthdawn and almost got a Necroscope supplement published by West End Games (I wrote it, but the company was faltering at the time, and the book never made it to first edits). All of the stuff I wrote was more about "fluff" than "crunch" as it's described now. (I detest those terms, but that's the vernacular, I suppose.)
It wasn't until 3rd Edition rolled in that I really started looking at rules and mechanics within the game. Part of that reason was that the new edition (and the prevalence of message boards and Internet culture) really made it easy to see how rules are written and for people to have an input into the way their favorite games worked. On top of that, since the rules are presumably based on facts and numbers, it seemed possible to actually have a discussion online about the "best" way to write a particular rule. It has taken me a long time--and the happy coincidence of finding "Faery's Tale"--to finally realize and, more importantly, accept that the "perfect rule" doesn't exist.
Nor should it, in my opinion. It seems to me that the "perfect rule" would fit the situation in question unerringly and require no thought--no creative intervention--on the part of the gamemaster or the player. At that point, I can imagine setting up a computer to play a game against itself and simply read the transcript of the adventure once the calculations are complete. It would be technically correct and may even be "realistic," but it would have no soul.
In reading the 96-page "Faery's Tale Deluxe" PDF that describes the entire world, I realized that in many cases while running these games, I will have to "make up" the effect of a particular ability. I will actually have to listen to my players (my wife and daughters in this instance) and figure out how to shape the outcome, based on their descriptions, to advance the story and add to their enjoyment of the game, as well as my own. I will not be able to simply say, "According to the 'rules as written', you can't do that with your pixie dust. You'll have to try something else" That thought made me kind of nervous, and I started to wonder why.
It didn't take much time before I realized that I've been spending an awful lot of time in the comfortable realm of D&D where the rules cover nearly every situation. If you don't have a skill, you make an ability check. If you don't have a particular ability, you can't achieve a desired effect. There's some creative problem solving involved in figuring out which of your abilities you can use to accomplish a task, but that's still falling within the structure of the rules. Everything is regimented, doled out in "fair" portions, to ensure that one character doesn't have an unfair advantage over another...and when I say "advantage" I'm almost always talking about an advantage in combat.
The problem is that the kinds of stories I told with my friends two decades ago (and still reminisce about) were almost never advanced during combat. The story progressed and the characters evolved during long nights in a darkened room or sitting out on a patio holding discussions in-character about the problems those characters faced. Occasionally, someone would act in a way that required dice to be rolled, but most of the story was told without any dice at all. Looking at the games I'm running now and that I have run since 3rd Edition came out, they've mostly been governed by dice rolls...not by the unbridled creativity of the gamemaster and players.
Don't get me wrong. I loved D&D 3.5, and I'm having a blast with the Pathfinder RPG rules. Paizo is going in a great direction, and I'm more than happy to go with them. On the other hand, everything I'm reading about 4.0 leads me to believe that D&D is becoming less of a roleplaying game and more of a strategy and tactics game. To me, it's been on that road since 2000. I suppose it makes a kind of karmic sense, seeing as how it started off as a strategic simulations game. I'm just realizing at age 35 that I've always loved the creative storytelling part of RPGs more than the strategy and tactics side of them. That's not true for everyone who plays the game...but it is true for many of us.
The ambiguity of the rules in "Faery's Tale" encourages the cooperative storytelling that is the very heart of the hobby for me. It revives that sense of shared experience with the people around you and of creating something memorable. I know that my skills of thinking creatively on my feet as the "Narrator" and coming up with ad lib complications and resolutions are a bit rusty, but I'm very much looking forward to using those parts of my brain again...especially since it means sharing my love of the hobby with my wife and daughters.
And now that I've reflected on what I truly love about RPGs, I've realized that it isn't the Pathfinder rules that drew me further into the Paizo fold, either...it was the world of Golarion. From the moment I read "Hollow's Last Hope," "Crown of the Kobold King," and "Burnt Offerings," something about this new world evoked the wonder and mystery that game settings had for me when I first started playing. I've been hooked ever since. I want to play Pathfinder because I want to tell stories in that setting, not because the Pathfinder rules are superior to any other rules system. The fact that I can contribute to the rules development, and I don't have to re-learn D&D (again) to make use of more Golarion "stuff" in my games (and, thus, keep giving them my money) is of benefit to both Paizo and me.
So, to prove that I haven't wandered wildly off of the thread's topic, I'll sum up with this. I don't think that the changes coming out of WotC have so much converted me as they have reverted me. I am finally coming back to what I believe is the heart of RPGs and looking at "gaming" from the viewpoint of cooperative storytelling, rather than one of group tactics. In that respect, the Hasbro/WotC team has really given me something of great value, even though they won't make any money off of me in the future. I've thrown in my lot with Paizo and will be with them for as long as they keep up the fantastic work they're doing now. I'm looking forward to all the great stories yet to come, and to sharing my love of gaming with my girls...no matter what kind of dice we're rolling.
Well put, Paris Crenshaw.
I think there's more of us who feel that way out there than you might think!
And that's why I love Paizo/Pathfinder so much. Sure they're going by a (realtively) rules-heavy system, but they still have no problem inspiring my creativity to run a FUN game, one where you can abide by the RAW and still create epic, memorable, character-driven moments.
We just started RotRL, and I'm really hamming it up with Aldern Foxgolove, trying to make him memorable, but in a "He's not really important" kinda way. Wait until they hit "Skinsaw Murders..." 8)
Paris, you might be interested in Prose Descriptive Quality (PDQ) systems such as Truth and Justice and Sorcerer of Zo. I would argue they are even more rules light than Faery’s Tale.
Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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Paris, you might be interested in Prose Descriptive Quality (PDQ) systems such as Truth and Justice and Sorcerer of Zo. I would argue they are even more rules light than Faery’s Tale.
Oh god. You're back.
Heya CourtFool, I've missed you. Good to see you back on the boards. How go the Hero edition wars?
Thanks, Sebastian. I did not think anyone noticed. I have no idea how the Hero edition wars are going. I have been rather absent from those boards as well. I took a break from all forums as I was feeling under-appreciated.
When everyone tells you that you are a horse’s arse, it is time to consider the possibility that one of them may be correct.
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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Thanks, Sebastian. I did not think anyone noticed. I have no idea how the Hero edition wars are going. I have been rather absent from those boards as well. I took a break from all forums as I was feeling under-appreciated.
When everyone tells you that you are a horse’s arse, it is time to consider the possibility that one of them may be correct.
If I took a break everytime someone called me a horse's arse, I'd never post. Being something of a non-partisan when it comes to the Great D&D Edition War III, your posts inject some much needed perspective into the debates. Or, to say it so plainly that even a fan of Hero can understand it,* I appreciate your posts. I'm glad you're back and hope you'll stick around.
* ;-)
I want to play Gamma World.
See, this is exactly what I've been telling my players for months now. "C'mon guys, let's break out some Gamma World. It'll be fun!" They all just sit there and look at me, some make faces, and then someone quickly changes the subject.
Bastards. Why is there no love for post-apocalyptic science fantasy any more?
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I want to play Gamma World.See, this is exactly what I've been telling my players for months now. "C'mon guys, let's break out some Gamma World. It'll be fun!" They all just sit there and look at me, some make faces, and then someone quickly changes the subject.
Bastards. Why is there no love for post-apocalyptic science fantasy any more?
Oh I dunno perhaps because we're on the verge of living it? }; )
At $4.56 gas here in CA I'm already living the Road Warrior lifestyle.
I want to play Gamma World.See, this is exactly what I've been telling my players for months now. "C'mon guys, let's break out some Gamma World. It'll be fun!" They all just sit there and look at me, some make faces, and then someone quickly changes the subject.
Bastards. Why is there no love for post-apocalyptic science fantasy any more?
Oh I dunno perhaps because we're on the verge of living it? }; )
At $4.56 gas here in CA I'm already living the Road Warrior lifestyle.
No worries mate. Gas around here is around 8$ a gallon. And we are still alive.
I appreciate your posts. I'm glad you're back and hope you'll stick around.
What have you done with the real Sebastian?
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I want to play Gamma World.See, this is exactly what I've been telling my players for months now. "C'mon guys, let's break out some Gamma World. It'll be fun!" They all just sit there and look at me, some make faces, and then someone quickly changes the subject.
Bastards. Why is there no love for post-apocalyptic science fantasy any more?
Gamma World's badass.
So tell me, how does WOTC and 4th edition suck the life out of my enjoyment when I would stick with 3.5 anyway? Anyone else feeling this way?
Eileen, my muse, say it isn't so! Perhaps the Fatal Five have slipped you a drug that induces apathy.
But seriously, it all comes down to the DM. The right adventure hook and storyteller will bring you back to us.
Gamma World's badass.
My days of taking you seriously are certainly coming to a middle.
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No worries mate. Gas around here is around 8$ a gallon. And we are still alive.I want to play Gamma World.See, this is exactly what I've been telling my players for months now. "C'mon guys, let's break out some Gamma World. It'll be fun!" They all just sit there and look at me, some make faces, and then someone quickly changes the subject.
Bastards. Why is there no love for post-apocalyptic science fantasy any more?
Oh I dunno perhaps because we're on the verge of living it? }; )
At $4.56 gas here in CA I'm already living the Road Warrior lifestyle.
Ah well you have good rail and public transportation systems. }: P
Ours are a joke. Besides it's not the total price, it's the sudden upswing in it that hurts.Anyway ya gamma world rocks. I've got every edition myself. After the Bomb is great as well.
So tell me, how does WOTC and 4th edition suck the life out of my enjoyment when I would stick with 3.5 anyway? Anyone else feeling this way?Eileen, my muse, say it isn't so! Perhaps the Fatal Five have slipped you a drug that induces apathy.
But seriously, it all comes down to the DM. The right adventure hook and storyteller will bring you back to us.
Well, I have been working as steadily as possible on my Legion game. It is difficult to decide at what point I have enough mechanics developed where the game is somewhat functionable. I'm pretty much to that point now where I'm pushing to play. As for D&D, well, I can pretty much handle one game at a time. So if it is gaming (in general) you speak of, then I am back. If it is D&D you have in mind, I guess I'm still on vacation. Though I must say I have mellowed out considerably since I wrote the original statement above. I could go back and enjoy 3.5 with Greyhawk at this point, with no ill will.
Yay. Mutant plants.
Gamma World's badass.I want to play Gamma World.See, this is exactly what I've been telling my players for months now. "C'mon guys, let's break out some Gamma World. It'll be fun!" They all just sit there and look at me, some make faces, and then someone quickly changes the subject.
Bastards. Why is there no love for post-apocalyptic science fantasy any more?
Heathansson, I love Gamma Worlds. The Mutations, the radiation, the black ray guns. Any second edition or even forth edition player's at Paizo. Hey, I'll even take a d20 Future variant if I can.
Why the hatin!
Your praise is reason enough.
Hey thats me! I'm itching to try WoD Forsaken and ShadowRun 4e. Any other suggestions. Has their been a spy/espionage game since "Top Secret"?
Honestly, I do not think 4e will tank. I remember how upset people were over 3.5. I just hope to steal a few of those disgruntled gamers.
I haven't played Top Secret since I was about 11. It was the first RPG that I ever played.
I haven't played Top Secret since I was about 11. It was the first RPG that I ever played.Hey thats me! I'm itching to try WoD Forsaken and ShadowRun 4e. Any other suggestions. Has their been a spy/espionage game since "Top Secret"?
Honestly, I do not think 4e will tank. I remember how upset people were over 3.5. I just hope to steal a few of those disgruntled gamers.
Top Secret/S.I. came out in 1987. The next closest thing is probably the d20 spyraft system as for as espionage goes. I have a Top Secret/S.I. thread around on other games.
Norris is watching.
Have you heard the song "Ultimate Showdown of Ultimate Destiny"? That's what I think of Chuck Noris.
I haven't played Top Secret since I was about 11. It was the first RPG that I ever played.Hey thats me! I'm itching to try WoD Forsaken and ShadowRun 4e. Any other suggestions. Has their been a spy/espionage game since "Top Secret"?
Honestly, I do not think 4e will tank. I remember how upset people were over 3.5. I just hope to steal a few of those disgruntled gamers.
I want to play Gamma World.See, this is exactly what I've been telling my players for months now. "C'mon guys, let's break out some Gamma World. It'll be fun!" They all just sit there and look at me, some make faces, and then someone quickly changes the subject.
Bastards. Why is there no love for post-apocalyptic science fantasy any more?
Oh I dunno perhaps because we're on the verge of living it? }; )
At $4.56 gas here in CA I'm already living the Road Warrior lifestyle.
Where are you getting $4.56 a gallon at in California? I paid $4.69 a gallon yesterday. This sucks.
It's 4.29 here in Las Vegas. I feel special.
It's 4.29 here in Las Vegas. I feel special.
$3.92 here in Texas
I think regular is around $3.95 or something right now. Diesel on the other hand...
4e is the reason for gas prices. WotC is in bed with OPEC.
So tell me, how does WOTC and 4th edition suck the life out of my enjoyment when I would stick with 3.5 anyway? Anyone else feeling this way?
Sadly, yes. My gaming group split down the middle. Half are now trying out 4e and have been scornful of those of us not wishing to give up 3.5. It's led to a lot of ill-feeling - so much so that I suspect I'll continue reading Pathfinder products but not playing them...
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Sadly, yes. My gaming group split down the middle. Half are now trying out 4e and have been scornful of those of us not wishing to give up 3.5. It's led to a lot of ill-feeling - so much so that I suspect I'll continue reading Pathfinder products but not playing them...
That's unfortunate...I'd dump my players if they strayed (hear that rclifton?)! If you live in far N Texas let me know!
Long live Pathfinder!
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So tell me, how does WOTC and 4th edition suck the life out of my enjoyment when I would stick with 3.5 anyway? Anyone else feeling this way?
Eileen - if you're still following this thread, please allow me to suggest a few things to relieve you of the sick gut-wrenching 4e feelings you've been having. Many of us were so sickened by 4e and all the associated consumer-nasty propaganda statements against 3.5 wotc were making, that we felt like you - like the life was sucked out of us, that is, frustrated or full of desire to give up all of it and not play either.
I really do understand how you felt, a lot of us do. And its normal. As DMMcCoy said, I think its a phase you go through...
Because I've appreciated all of your previous posts, here I've written some suggestions of ways to help dissolve your negative feelings about 3.5:
1. Start drawing maps of a new campaign area
2. We know you love Greyhawk - get ready to start a campaign there
3. Find some chapters in your 3.5 collection you've never read, and read them!
4. Find a really good FLGS that still sells 1st, 2nd, and third edition and peruse the materials for nastalgia's sake
5. Form a group of like-minded players and start telling them about what PAIZO is doing with 3.5
6. Start developing new aspects to your 3.5 playing or DMing style such as collecting figures to use in game, or starting a token making craft with monster pictures and 1" magnets, or find some free 1" square art and print and piece together some game mats
7. Make up new characters using Jason's Alpha3 ruleset. (Eileen, you could make these for a Greyhawk game!)
8. Surf the web (renderocity.com, deviant art.com, other Web sites) for inspiring pictures to jar some story or character ideas
9. Plan a ride to a local Renaissance Faire or Gaming Convention (take a friend)
10. Write a letter to the PAIZO staff telling them what you love and sharing your suggestions for making PRPG the game you want to play. Conversely, take great pleasure in avoiding all things wotc., especially avoiding purchasing 4e.
Hope that helps.
If all else fails, as someone once said on these boards: Take two Gamemastery products and call me in the morning.
So tell me, how does WOTC and 4th edition suck the life out of my enjoyment when I would stick with 3.5 anyway? Anyone else feeling this way?Eileen - if you're still following this thread, please allow me to suggest a few things to relieve you of the sick gut-wrenching 4e feelings you've been having. Many of us were so sickened by 4e and all the associated consumer-nasty propaganda statements against 3.5 wotc were making, that we felt like you - like the life was sucked out of us, that is, frustrated or full of desire to give up all of it and not play either.
I really do understand how you felt, a lot of us do. And its normal. As DMMcCoy said, I think its a phase you go through...
Because I've appreciated all of your previous posts, here I've written some suggestions of ways to help dissolve your negative feelings about 3.5:
1. Start drawing maps of a new campaign area
2. We know you love Greyhawk - get ready to start a campaign there
3. Find some chapters in your 3.5 collection you've never read, and read them!
4. Find a really good FLGS that still sells 1st, 2nd, and third edition and peruse the materials for nastalgia's sake
5. Form a group of like-minded players and start telling them about what PAIZO is doing with 3.5
6. Start developing new aspects to your 3.5 playing or DMing style such as collecting figures to use in game, or starting a token making craft with monster pictures and 1" magnets, or find some free 1" square art and print and piece together some game mats
7. Make up new characters using Jason's Alpha3 ruleset. (Eileen, you could make these for a Greyhawk game!)
8. Surf the web (renderocity.com, deviant art.com, other Web sites) for inspiring pictures to jar some story or character ideas
9. Plan a ride to a local Renaissance Faire or Gaming Convention (take a friend)
10. Write a letter to the PAIZO staff telling them what you love and sharing your suggestions for making PRPG the game you want to play. Conversely, take great pleasure in...
Thank you for the post Pax Veritas, I really do appreciate it when people come along and can say I understand or I've been there. It is good to know your not always alone. I haven't started up with D&D again primarly because since the post you referenced, I have been putting my RPG energy into a new and worthy project. It might not be D&D but it is RPG.
Your list of motivations is excellent and I do believe I have worked through most the negativity I allowed as a result of yet another new and dramatically different game which currently is being entitled D&D. I have gotten back to the point where I can pick up a D&D book and play without feeling frustrated, angered, or any other negativity. I made my purchases, I will in time go back to playing and be ok with it. I will be attending the Renaissance Fair towards Labor Day, I go every year (one of these years I have to dress up). Greyhawk is the only way I go and my love for that is unswerving. I do cringe with the idea of WOTC touching it though. I would rather see it linger on then get a WOTC make over. Much thanks for you kind words. I may not post as frequent as I previously had but I'm always here and reading posts for those who have something kind or fun to say.
It's 4.29 here in Las Vegas. I feel special.$3.92 here in Texas
That's because Texas has its own refineries. Cheaper to produce, cheaper to ship.
It is good to know your not always alone.
You are most definitely not alone. I went through that phase and to a degree, I still am. But I know I am not alone.