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Just heard this from my local Living Greyhawk group. Thoughts???
http://theminiaturespage.com/news/519193/
Wizards of the Coast writes:
August 16, 2007 (Renton, WA) – Whether you storm a mad wizard's tower every week or haven't delved into a dungeon since you had a mullet and a mean pair of parachute pants, one thing is certain - millions of D&D players worldwide have anticipated the coming of 4th Edition for many years. Today, Wizards of the Coast confirms that the new edition will launch in May 2008 with the release of the D&D Player's Handbook. A pop culture icon, Dungeons & Dragons is the #1 tabletop roleplaying game in the world, and is revered by legions of gamers of all ages.
The 4th Edition Dungeons & Dragons game includes elements familiar to current D&D players, including illust rated rulebooks and pre- painted plastic miniatures. Also releasing next year will be new web- based tools and online community forums through the brand-new Dungeons & Dragons Insider (D&D Insider) digital offering. D&D Insider lowers the barriers of entry for new players while simultaneously offering the depth of play that appeals to veteran players.
The 4th Edition rules emphasize faster game play, offer exciting new character options, and reduce the amount of "prep time" needed to run the game. D&D Insider includes a character creator that lets players design and equip their D&D characters, dungeon- and adventure-building tools for Dungeon Masters, online magazine content, and a digital game table that lets you play 24/7 on the internet — the perfect option for anyone who can't find time to get together.
"We've been gathering player feedback for eight years," said Bill Slavicsek, R&D Dire ctor of Roleplaying and Miniatures Games at Wizards of the Coast. "Fourth Edition streamlines parts of the D&D game that are too complex, while enhancing the overall play experience. At its heart, it's still a tabletop game experience. However, D&D Insider makes it easier for players to create characters, run their games, and interact with the rest of the D&D community."
Wizards of the Coast will release two 4th Edition preview books in December and January — Wizards Presents: Classes and Races and Wizards Presents: Worlds and Monsters. The first live demos of 4th Edition will happen at the D&D Experience gaming convention in Washington D.C. in February 2008. The full scope of 4th Edition books, miniatures, and adventures will be available in the spring and summer of 2008.
Since its first release in 1974, the fantasy roleplaying game Dungeons & Dragons has taken millions of players on imaginary adventures of epic scale. Today, D&D is universally regarded as the original game that created the roleplaying game category, and the inspiration for generations of game designers. D&D is enjoyed by millions of players worldwide, while countless more remember it with fond nostalgia.
Millions of gamers have anticipated the release of $th edition for years? WTF?! I don't want there to be 4e. And, judging from the sentiments on the 4dventure thread neither do many other people. Presumptios bastards. I hope those in high places at Wizards burn in hell.
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Heh, they claim to be streamlining the system for faster play. Methinks they've taken a clue from White Wolf's new World of Darkness line and realized "Hey! Lots of complicated rules bog the game down!"
I'll take a look at it before I start buying it. I'll probably put it off for at least a few months (unlike the new WoD, which I put off for years) to make sure that it looks like something I'll stick with, but in the end... yeah, I'll probably buy it. I have to say, though, that I won't be terribly thrilled about it.
Well, it's finally happened... I don't wanna be one of those whiny "WoC sucks" people, but if the shoe fits...
WoC has now officially become Games Workshop. D&D is now becoming a miniatures based tabletop game that needs constant "revisions" every few years or so "in response to gamer's demands." Just who are these gamers anyway? I don't know too many people who are saying that current D&D sucks, our hundreds of $$$ of books and materials need to be completely scrapped, Dungeon and Dragon magazines needed to die in order to make way for ambiguous "online digital" formats and that we need dozens of crappy plastic miniatures to completely change the game.
Don't get me wrong, change is often good and keeps things fresh, but change for the sake of change (read: $$$) is not good. In fact, it's a slap in the face and an insult. If I want to do tabletop miniatures, I can play WH Fantasy or 40K (and buy new rules every 2 years or so - $$$), I don't need it here... I dont enjoy spending $500 or more on books only to have them be officially defunct after only 5 years. Yes, they can still be used and, yes, people still play AD&D 2nd, but come on, that's such a small minority. To have no support for your product = death. Period.
D&D used to be about imagination, a good DM, players who were about the fantasy. Now it seems to be getting dumbed down to "little kid level" (no offense to little kids intended) in order to create a new target audience and sell miniatures as well as new books...
And, if you think I'm just some idiot ranting away because he hates change, think again. Look at what WoC did to Paizo and the magazines. Look at how many "revisions" D&D went through in the 26 years before WoC as opposed to how many in the 8 years with them. Equal folks, equal. And suppose we buy into this 4th edition? How are we supposed to believe that in 2010 4.5 won't be coming? and 5th edition in 2012? Sounds like a long time, but not really if you think about it. After all WoC is basically GW, and you have only to look at them to see what they've done to their game and shudder as we wait for it to happen to D&D...
Trying to be my usual optimistic self and finding it very, very hard...
Heh, they claim to be streamlining the system for faster play. Methinks they've taken a clue from White Wolf's new World of Darkness line and realized "Hey! Lots of complicated rules bog the game down!"
WOD rules are easy indeed but we quited playing cause combat took way to long.
(at least in the vampire: the masquerade and Werewolf:apocolypse time)I stay for 3,5 for sure. as i said in another post: maybe i borrow some stuff as houserules if it works better.
but 3.5 for the upcoming years for me.
2nd edition also stayed for lots o years.
thats my 2 coppers.
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WOD rules are easy indeed but we quited playing cause combat took way to long.
(at least in the vampire: the masquerade and Werewolf:apocolypse time)
Oh, I agree. I was talking about the NEW WoD (Requiem, Forsaken, Awakening, etc.). It's 800000000 times easier now, and combat is often resolved in 6 dice rolls or less.
Oh, I agree. I was talking about the NEW WoD (Requiem, Forsaken, Awakening, etc.). It's 800000000 times easier now, and combat is often resolved in 6 dice rolls or less.
Ok thats quite an improvement then.
(no 5 rolls or so to confirm the hit :)(roll to hit then dodge for target. then target makes armor soaks and after that fortitude rolls to see if you wounded
PFFFF
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Your attack and damage rolls are now combined, and defense/dodge/armor is just subtracted from attacker's die pool. The success target number is now 8+ (on a d10) and difficulty is expressed by penalties to the die pool, not by altering the target number. And botches can only occur if you're reduced to zero dice and decide to roll a 'desperation die' anyway. And there are no powers that give you multiple actions now: celerity is a bonus to defense and initiative.
It's much better.
Anyway, about D&D 4e, doom doom doom.
Groan!
Are they serious! It took all I could muster to drag my group kicking and screaming into the 3.0/3.5 era.
Not cool man, not cool.
And another thing! Streamline the rules?? They said the EXACT same thing when 3.0 came out! And for about two years it WAS faster. Then they began selling you a bunch of "expansions" and "complete" books and things began to bog down again as my players had to look everything up again and again. Gah!
I am not going to change to 4E. I have been thinking about this a lot of time, and I suddendly realized that I simply don't have the time and energy to switch to a new edition. I am 35. I have to work hard for a living. I have a newborn and a non-gamer wife. And I gather with my friends to game...once every two months. It took us around three years to fully enjoy 3.5, and before of that, it took nearly one year to learn 3.0 from AD&D. No. It's enough for me. I'll keep on playing 3.5. I have rules and supplements and adventures to game for 30 more years. I don't need 4E. I won't buy 4E.
And I am not even slightly interested in D&D Insider. I love and will always love Dungeon and Dragon Magazines.
daedel, el azote.
I'm now thanking WotC (or at least cursing them somewhat less fervently. I still hate them for what they've done with D&D). I've been looking on Amazon.com and the price of all the D&D books ave plummeted. Player's Guide to Eberron: $6.83, Shadows of the Last War: $0.97, Tome of Magic $7.20, Complete Adventurer $7.00.
I am actually cursing them, as I recently bought a bunch of books.If I'd waited just a bit longer, I could have gotten them CHEAP.
I am actually cursing them, as I recently bought a bunch of books.If I'd waited just a bit longer, I could have gotten them CHEAP.
Well, yes, there is that. But there're a lt of D&D books I've wanted and I'll be able to get them much cheaper. I'm trying to look on the bright side (for once) and you're not helping! Must Concentrate on remaining mildly optimistic...
12 seconds after the "launch," and i think the WOtC website has already chashed!
Bwa ah ah ah ah !
-Skeld
Lol. I noticed that. Tee hee. Yep, boy am I sure looking forward to WOTC bringing us the miracles of modern technology...
How have I gamed all these years without that kind of support?
*only owns the three core books*
heheheheheh
HHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAMAAMUAAAHAHAHA
Hehehhohohehoeh...
Millions of gamers have anticipated the release of $th edition for years? WTF?!
Heh. Nice typo on the $th edition.
^^^^^
Freudian typo?? Hrm......
Im not buying 4th edition unless it has tabletop holograms, like the millennium falcon.
Then my advice to you is to never play DnD with a wookie. Wookies are known for pulling arms out of peoples sockets. ;)
You ARE wise.*only owns the three core books*
heheheheheh
HHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAMAAMUAAAHAHAHA
Hehehhohohehoeh...
I also only own the three core books.
I AM cheep. ;)
I agree with many of the posters on this thread.. Although I've read some supporters of 4E in the 4dventures thread as well..
Personally, I am a little peeved for another edition... And I don't appreciate the propaganda about how great 4E is going to be from WOTC.. Don't sit there and tell me after I've invested hundreds of dollars in 3.5 and tell that 4E is going to be quicker, simplified, more enjoyable.. We've eliminated the rules that bog you down... and the blurb goes on and on... TELL ME WHAT EXACTLY WHAT YOU'RE CHANGING!! Enough of the flowery BS, tell me what the changes are..
AND what about Pathfinder? How soon will they be following with the upgrade.... And then of course all of the dozens of 3.5 books for the D&D campaign settings will either be rendered obsolete or perhaps there'll be a section of upgrades, like they have in books regarding State Laws... In every book they have a slit in the back so you can insert the latest laws ... This is getting ridiculous... Every 2-4 years there's going to be a D&D upgrade!? 3.0, 3.5, 4.0, 4.0 Reloaded, 4.5...5.0.. So I imagine in about the year 2020 .. We'll be up to er.. 5.5 or 6?
What WOTC ought to do is set up an exchange program.. Allow us to trade in our 3.5 editions for a discount (at the very least) for 4.0... And then by the time all that mess settles.. It will be time for 4.5...
The wizards site seems to be working now, just a little sluggish...but I find it interesting that there are several apparently 3.5 edition scheduled releases well past May 2008...at least, according to Amazon...
I'll have to go find those.
My group just converted from 3.0 to 3.5 this past year. The 2nd ed. to 3.0 conversion wasn't a hard sell, but the 3.0/3.5 conversion was tough because we didn't want to go out and buy new rulebooks when we hadn't played with the 3.0 books enough to wear them out. I passed the word along earlier today and got the normal cynicism, but our DM hasn't replied yet, and given his volatile, paranoid, hyperbole-laden nature it'll be a doozie . . . getting us to upgrade will be tough. In addition to trade value for 3.5 books, they'll have to throw in free custom miniatures (we've just started using them to help out in combat, and we're happy with them) and probably a few ancient heirlooms of alien civilizations to convert us with any speed. I wouldn't mind more streamlined rules if there was an ironclad guarantee that they wouldn't get cluttered up again later.
Hah! I made a funny!
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I am not going to change to 4E. I have been thinking about this a lot of time, and I suddendly realized that I simply don't have the time and energy to switch to a new edition. I am 35. I have to work hard for a living. I have a newborn and a non-gamer wife. And I gather with my friends to game...once every two months. It took us around three years to fully enjoy 3.5, and before of that, it took nearly one year to learn 3.0 from AD&D. No. It's enough for me. I'll keep on playing 3.5. I have rules and supplements and adventures to game for 30 more years. I don't need 4E. I won't buy 4E.
And I am not even slightly interested in D&D Insider. I love and will always love Dungeon and Dragon Magazines.
daedel, el azote.
Amen to that Brother!
You will all come over to the dark side eventually (or you won't ;-).
.
Hah! I made a funny!
Yes- you did- and I appreciate it.. : P
I'm not happy about a 4th edition. But my complaint isn't that they released one, rather that they released one this soon AFTER BLATANTLY LYING ABOUT IT'S DEVELOPMENT SCHEDULE.
I made purchases based on those lies. That doesn't make me a happy customer.
- Ashavan
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I'm not happy about a 4th edition. But my complaint isn't that they released one, rather that they released one this soon AFTER BLATANTLY LYING ABOUT IT'S DEVELOPMENT SCHEDULE.
I made purchases based on those lies. That doesn't make me a happy customer.
- Ashavan
Thats my problem too Ash, after spending all this money on 3.5 how to I quantify buy a new edition to my wife :X much less teaching her a new one :X
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Reading between the lines of their schedule, you could see it coming (less and less "crunchy supplements" coming up, because the people who actually know how to write core rules are pulled for other projects, general drop in editing and QA since - you guessed it - it won't matter for very long.
I must say i am quite critical of the new edition. I dropped out of both WoD and Exalted because the revisions dumbed down the system to a joke, and generally did little to enhance play other than making it 5% faster.
I like a certain complexity. I play D&D not exclusively, but also as a tactical game. Dropping this aspect of the game does not enhance, it diminishes the experience for me.
The tighter integration of the miniatures line seems to imply just that. The miniatures rules are in essence simplified and streamlined versions of the main rules. If this is the yardstick by which to measure the "streamlining", i am not impressed. The quotes about games talking about their character builds also leave a stale taste, it sounds like there is a very limited number of these to go around, without the freedom and flexibility to create unusual combinations.
As for the tight integration between DI and D&D, i will refrain from saying much. It might be an improvement, if you like having a laptop on your gaming table. I personally find them intensely disruptive and annoying, and outright banned them.
As for the "mucho $$$" arguments, i am somewhat sympathetic, but think they miss the core of the issue. Those people who like buying supplements would probably have spend that money on "Complete Zealot", the indispensable third book about all things divine caster. What really is a bit fishy is that those into "core only" would have to buy another "core three". Okay, you can't directly fit "feat X, spell Y and PrC Z" into 4th edition, but unless my very worst nightmares come true, it should not be too hard converting between the editions.
If there had to be a new edition, i would hope for a "3.6", where some minor tweaks (Immediate and Swift actions in Core, re-balancing clerics and druids vs arcane casters, and casters vs non casters) are done, but the core mechanics remain mostly intact. They are good ones, and really do not need much tinkering with.
The people who bring us CCGs now bring us CB(ook)Gs. Big Surprise.
They've been releasing 2-4 $30+ books a month, and now want us to start over. Big Surprise.
I'm disgusted. What are they doing now? Dumbing it down? Making it even more complicated? Who knows. Who cares?
I've played D&D for 21 years now. I haven't been nearly this disgruntled since they took away demons and devils to appease the media. I'm sick of it; the constant glut of books that cost a fortune, more and more classes and outrageous feats to compete with WoW, their scheme to get us to buy far more minis than we need by making them a blind box purchase. And this, this blatant call for even more of our income on new rules...forget it. Just forget it. If they expect they can take the things we love (Dungeon/Dragon mags) and flush 'em, then pull this hard sell - they can just find new customers.
I hope this doesn't affect Pathfinder anytime soon; at least not for the first two arcs (which are, I assume, written already and using current edt rules).
Crap on this. I'm out.
I am thrilled. This will finally be the straw breaking the camel's back that allows me to convince people to play other games. Thanks for the converts, WotC.
As another said before, this looks like a good time to try another game. I'm disgusted.
Why is Deadlands and even old Torg or Shadowrun sounding like sweet bliss right now?
The only thing that even made me pick up my ears is "streamlined combat."
For my group, 3.5 has been a morass of slowness in combat.
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The wizards site seems to be working now, just a little sluggish...but I find it interesting that there are several apparently 3.5 edition scheduled releases well past May 2008...at least, according to Amazon...I'll have to go find those.
I'm wrong; it's books through March 08 (Stormreach for Eberron)
I know nothing about 4th ed. other than what I've read here. My concern, apart from the obvious monetary ones, is that fact that as I've gotten used to 3.5 I find that I just throw out or modify rules that don't work for my group. But if I'm paying this much money I'd rather have a complicated system that I can pare down to meet my needs, rather than some simplified system that requires me to MAKE more rules....