Posers: Baked Baked Plush


Product Discussion

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Firebeetle wrote:
Marijuana, like any drug, is evil. It ruins lives, that's evil.

Car accidents ruin lives, sir; are automobiles therefore indisputably evil, by your definition? Do you walk everywhere? Cancer ruins lives, but it's not "evil," it's a disease. If everything with the potential to ruin lives is "evil," then very few things are not evil, and we're left with a very small world indeed.

I avoid illegal drugs because I value my brain, and because they're illegal. But I love my morning cup of coffee, and for you or anyone else to take it away from me because caffeine is a drug (and therefore "evil") would be totally uncalled-for. In this case, though, you're not just denying people their cup of coffee: you would seemingly deny them their 1st amendment right to speak out in favor of coffee as well. That's not how things work in the U.S. Possessing or selling marijuana is a crime, but simply speaking in favor of its legalization is not, no matter how much you may want it to be.

Scarab Sages

underling wrote:


Get over yourself and recognize that your cause (about the doll) is silly. Move on, and bother some other folks.

I just wanted to be clear that by 'move on' I meant to another topic. The statement was a little ambiguous.

Liberty's Edge

Kirth Gersen wrote:
...But I love my morning cup of coffee, and for you or anyone else to take it away from me because caffeine is a drug (and therefore "evil") would be totally uncalled-for...

If my unadulterated, naturally caffeinated coffee becomes illegal, I will resign my commission (along with half the officers in the entire US Armed Forces) and throw my entire life into the production and sell of high-quality black market coffee.

(If you could see me as I wrote that, you would have noticed I cross my arms at the end, my head tilts up in a haughty holier-than-thou sneer of disdain, and, of course, there's the obligatory sniff-hmmmph!...)


I just browsed this thread again, looked at the pic, and besides from the product description (what all this fuss is about)
the puppet looks quite cute

Liberty's Edge

Firebeetle wrote:
Marijuana, like any drug, is evil.

Well, my headache is way more evil than Tylenol, so I shall continue to take it. And when my Knees flair up from a 7-years-ago bad night landing in Jump School, I will take my 1600mg of Motrin, because the evil pain is eviler than the evil drug... ;-)

RPG Superstar 2009 Top 16

Here's the odd thing; I find it disconcerting that nowhere in this thread is one mention of how the doll is clearly ripping off the Flying Spaghetti Monster's Pastafarian culture. The gall, I say. The GALL!

Scarab Sages

NChance wrote:
Here's the odd thing; I find it disconcerting that nowhere in this thread is one mention of how the doll is clearly ripping off the Flying Spaghetti Monster's Pastafarian culture. The gall, I say. The GALL!

I wanted to keep religion out of this discussion. ;)

(I was touched by his noodley appendage)


underling wrote:
(I was touched by his noodley appendage)

Ramen.


Aubrey the Malformed wrote:
BeneathTheEarth wrote:
Completely false.The Taliban eradicated poppy cultivation and banned opium in afghanistan.With the decline in power and influence that the Taliban has over the region opium has made a come back as Afghanistans number one export.The Taliban dont trade in opium, get your facts straight before you state them as fact.

Helmand province, where Taleban influence is very high, is one of the centres of opium production. The Taleban certainly discouraged the production of opium for a time, when they were in charge, to look noble and so on. But they have no particular problem with its cultivation as it isn't expressly forbidden by the Koran. As it is the only real cash crop that is available to the farmers around there they are inclined to grow it. But you are exceptionally naive if you think the Taleban and al Qaeda are simply going to ignore such a massive potential source of income on their doorstep - how exactly do you think the Taleban get their money: goat herding? Sure, I bet the Taleban are not the only players in the market - virtually all the leaders in the country and those surrounding probably have their fingers in that particular opiate pie. But with British soldiers fighting in that particular area, we hear a lot about what goes on down there in the news.

EDIT: I think most of us have probably laid out our stalls on this one, and the thread is getting very hijacked from a basic discussion of whether a doll is in good taste to broader issues on drugs, which few of us (including me) are terribly qualified to discuss beyond personal experience.

Fair enough and id like to say my post came off a little more aggressive than i intended, or atleast rereading it it seems so to me.However, just because the news says something is so doesnt make it true.Though i have no "inside" information to share so i concede the point.Conversations like this one are the reason i dont visit off-topic sections of message boards usually.

Paizo Employee Sales Associate

BeneathTheEarth wrote:
Conversations like this one are the reason i dont visit off-topic sections of message boards usually.

Actually, the conversations on our Off Topic boards are usually much funnier than this.

Just sayin'

-cos


Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Andrew Turner wrote:
Firebeetle wrote:
Marijuana, like any drug, is evil.
Well, my headache is way more evil than Tylenol, so I shall continue to take it. And when my Knees flair up from a 7-years-ago bad night landing in Jump School, I will take my 1600mg of Motrin, because the evil pain is eviler than the evil drug... ;-)

/shamelessly off topic

Mr. Turner! I didn't realize I had a fellow paratrooper here! I *also* had a bad night landing in Jump School--or, I should say, a bad PLF--but it was probably about two years before you. I was in Delta Company, Class 34-98. Yeah, Fort Benning sucks in July.

But anyway, I, for one, do not begrudge you your Motrin, Airborne.

/quasi on topic

To the OP:
I used to be certified as an EMT, and back then we considered oxygen to be a "drug." Does that mean oxygen is e-vil? (As in, the Fru-its of the De-vil?)


Cosmo wrote:
BeneathTheEarth wrote:
Conversations like this one are the reason i dont visit off-topic sections of message boards usually.

Actually, the conversations on our Off Topic boards are usually much funnier than this.

Just sayin'

-cos

Slips Cosmo $20

BRAWK!

The Exchange

BeneathTheEarth wrote:
Fair enough and id like to say my post came off a little more aggressive than i intended, or atleast rereading it it seems so to me.However, just because the news says something is so doesnt make it true.Though i have no "inside" information to share so i concede the point.Conversations like this one are the reason i dont visit off-topic sections of message boards usually.

Yeah, no problem. This one has got a lot of people surprisingly riled up, including me. An emotive issue, I guess.

Contributor

Aubrey the Malformed wrote:


Dear me, tone is difficult to get on the boards, isn't it?

I was simply being facetious, since we strayed on to organised crime.

Ha! My bad Aubrey! Many apologies. :-)


Andrew Turner wrote:

Ahh... My previous life as a High School English teacher rears again.

"Good and evil we know in the field of this world grow up together almost inseparably; and the knowledge of good is so involved and interwoven with the knowledge of evil, and in so many cunning resemblances hardly to be discerned, that those confused seeds which were imposed upon Psyche as an incessant labour to cull out and sort asunder, were not more intermixed. It was from out the rind of one apple tasted that the knowledge of good and evil, as two twins cleaving together, leaped forth into the world. And perhaps this is that doom which Adam fell into of knowing good and evil, that is to say of knowing good by evil."

Please, Censors of the World, read John Milton's Areopagitica, or at least read the Spark/Cliff Notes...

Censorship, oh please.

When you were a teacher, you couldn't show certain movies (say "Pink Floyd's The Wall"), because they were not appropriate. There have been Supreme Court cases about such, you would lose your job and not a soul would say "censorship"

Your local library doesn't carry Playboy, or Penthouse, or Maxim, or High Times. It's not appropriate. Neither does your supermarket, or Wal-Mart. If they did, patrons would complain they don't want to shop someplace where Playboy or High Times is sold. The manager might say "but we have it behind the counter, and only adults could buy" People would still be well within their rights to exercise their power as a consumer and say no. This is not censorship, this is taking control of the place where your money is spent. We are not just open wallets, we are people who have the right to influence what is sold where we spend our money. We the consumers have the power, but only if we exercise it.

I work at a movie theater on weekends, if we decided to show porn every Saturday night at midnight, admitting only adults, we would be broke inside a week. People would simply stop coming. This is not censorship, it's consumer action to let the merchant, who is providing the community a service, what the public wants. Capitalism is not a moral good onto itself, it must serves the needs and interests of the community. Marijuana, an illegal drug, does not serve the needs or interests of the law-abiding community. Hence we do not support it.

Drugs and RPGs, on those rare occasions they meet, have a terrible history that has stigmatized the game. Wade Dallas Egbert III Chris Pritchard, Rodrick Justin Farrell . . .all these cases had drug associations. As a community, we should say no. Period.


Kirth Gersen wrote:
Firebeetle wrote:
Marijuana, like any drug, is evil. It ruins lives, that's evil.

Car accidents ruin lives, sir; are automobiles therefore indisputably evil, by your definition? Do you walk everywhere? Cancer ruins lives, but it's not "evil," it's a disease. If everything with the potential to ruin lives is "evil," then very few things are not evil, and we're left with a very small world indeed.

I avoid illegal drugs because I value my brain, and because they're illegal. But I love my morning cup of coffee, and for you or anyone else to take it away from me because caffeine is a drug (and therefore "evil") would be totally uncalled-for. In this case, though, you're not just denying people their cup of coffee: you would seemingly deny them their 1st amendment right to speak out in favor of coffee as well. That's not how things work in the U.S. Possessing or selling marijuana is a crime, but simply speaking in favor of its legalization is not, no matter how much you may want it to be.

Get over yourself. I'm talking specifically about marijuana, an illegal and illicit drug. Not car accidents, or caffeine, or Japanese pornography. Straw man arguments are a fallacy, let's stuff them away shall we?

I'm talking about supporing a drug lifestyle, which is done by selling obviously drug related items. The doll and the Fluxx game are the gamer equivalent of a hat or belt buckle with a marijuana leaf on them. The primary customers for these will be drug users. Paizo is about supporting the gamer lifestyle, not the drug lifestyle.

You say you value your brain so you don't use drugs. Don't you value the brains of your fellow gamers? I do, for what we do is social and not individual. You can say, "let them choose" but letting someone choose a mind-altering, addictive, chemical is not a good choice under any circumstance. We cannot stop people from choosing, but we can sure as hell let them know it is not acceptable. In fact, that's ultimately all we can do.


Sean, Minister of KtSP wrote:


Oh, get OVER yourself already.

Your way of looking at the world is not the only way to look at it. Your anecdotes are not the only anecdotes (and I know I can match anecdote for anecdote, showing that marijuana use is completely benign).

Your (nothing but) anecdotal evidence is disingenuous emotional manipulation, trying to make your case by telling us the most awful stories you can think of, so we react aghast, in horror.

I appreciate your strong feeling on the subject, as clearly it is something close to your heart, but you have provided nothing, not one tiny iota of evidence showing even the most minor correlation (let alone actual causation) between Paizo selling these products and any possible increase in the societal acceptance of drug use.

Do you even know how many of these products Paizo has sold through the website?

Frankly, since every single person who has come in this thread (mostly to oppose your silly boycott, which seems to be starting as soon as you're done using the Paizo boards) has expressed an extreme disinterest in both this plush doll and the stupid card game, I would be very surprised if Paizo has sold any at all.

You say all marijuana use is evil? Evil is a really strong word. Perhaps the reason for your zealotry (something I disdain no matter what its cause) is that you have strong religious beliefs on the subject? Satan is twirling his moustache somewhere and laughing evilly every time someone lights up a joint somewhere? If religion is, in fact, the cause of...

My anecdotes are testimony of a bonded, certified state employee who has served well over a thousand students in my career, as has my wife (a different student body) and my daughter has served hundreds of clients. My anecdotes are the testimony of dedicated, college educated public servants who are privy to information that the common citizen is not, we see the stories that others do not see. Serving an at risk population (or addicts in my daughter's case) we have seen many die in accidents and murders, serve serious jail time (including two lifers), raped, abused, or just plain drop off the list of law-abiding society.

You're right, my way of looking at things isn't the only way. Many people agree with the position that it is in allowing a civil tolerance of marijuana that allows its use to grow.

Yes, evil. Let's use another useless anecdote about a student from my first year. An amazingly smart child who always behaved and did the right thing. Her family used marijuana extensively. The year prior to mine, she had to have her head shaved to eliminate the head lice. When she was removed from her home, no food was found for her or her younger siblings. She was diminuative for her age. She was often sent home due to head lice, or kept home to babysit when her mother was tripping. Once, she came to school in a jacket that reeked of marijuana. Mom was put into jail in the second quarter, and she went to live with her aunt and uncle, the latter raping her repeatedly. He went to jail for years but returned to the very same home. You know, that kid deserved a chance, but thanks to marijuana she never got it. That's evil, any way you cut it.

I should get over myself? You should wake up.

I am glad to see we have another attempt at a personal attack, glad I'm getting through so well. My religion is now on trial, since I'm obviously a religious fanatic or something. I'm not, I'm a Presbyterian, we are an incredibly mellow bunch. Mr. Rodgers was a Presbyterian, we have the same amount of religious fervor in our church as he did on his show, which is to say not at all. I can't remember the word "drug" or even "devil" being mentioned in the last ten years. We are much more concerned with world hunger and poverty, using "feed and clothe" missions vs. "come to Jesus" missions. Sorry, the only zealots you'll find in this debate are the drug users.


Sean, Minister of KtSP wrote:
Firebeetle wrote:
Marijuana is not as immediately destructive as other drugs, as I've stated. Consequences are often secondary,such as the mother in my prior example, too stoned to parent but buys the gun her son wants, perhaps thinking defense against other users who would steal from her. It's all fun and games until someone's brains are shot out. Even if this horrible event did not occur, her son had extreme problems coping with absolutely anything do to his mother's use and utter lack of guidance.

You know, the more details you reveal about this story, the more it sounds completely made up. Another fiction.

Guns do NOT come sold with bullets already in them. Either the mother or the son had to have put the bullet in there. I know accidental shootings like this happen now and again, but the rate is actually pretty low (since most gun owners are responsible, take gun safety courses, and make everybody in the house do the same).

More importantly, even if this did really happen? I suspect it would have played out exactly the same if there was no marijuana use in the poor kid's family at all. You don't say the kid who shot his friend was using marijuana, just his mother. So what was the idiot kid's excuse for pointing a real gun, loaded or not, at his friend's face and pulling the trigger?

Idiocy and irresponsible gun ownership was the cause of that accident (if it even really happened, which I doubt), not marijuana.

You listen up and you listen good. I work 12 hours a day serving these kids. I go to their homes when their parents are too stoned to come to the conference. I make sure they have clothes when no one is providing them at home. I hotline their parents when they are being abused. I have had things thrown at my house, my car almost set on fire, obscene phones calls, and a death threat against my family because my family and I advocate for these kids when no one else will. I would never, ever, dishonor their memory with a made up or exaggerated story. FERPA will not allow me to give a name, but I can give you the number of the local library if you want to go digging through some micro fices of the local paper. A search of Clinton, MO in the Mo State Trooper database on sex offenders will turn up some of the villains I've spoken of.

You say: This would have happened anyway? What sort of argument is that?!

This is what that kid needed from Mom to prevent this from happening. Marijuana blocks it every time.

1.) Actual parenting, including consequences for actions- Mom is too stoned and too paranoid about getting into trouble to give consequences or seek parenting support. Result- child is immature, irresponsible, and does not consider consequences.
2.) Purchase of a gun- Drug users frequently have guns to protect themselves from theft, a common part of the drug-using culture. Having her son, getting quite large, with a gun was quite a good choice for a drug user. Having an immature and thoughtless child with a gun makes no sense to a non-drug using parent.
3.) Supervision- Here's the big one. Drug using parents are supervised by their kids, not the other way around. That is, until the children join the family activity and become users themselves. In this case, no supervision was to be had as the child had a gun. Again, Mom was stoned.

Marijuana = no chance for the kid. The prosecutor agreed. Mom was charged, not the kid.


Can't we all just get along?


Former cop here. Thanks for telling the truth, firebeetle. I've seen what pot can do in my own life (pre-getting-my-head-on-straight) and in my small rural town. It's a shame some people refuse to see the truth for what it is.


Nicolas Logue wrote:
Firebeetle wrote:


“To each his own” In this response you legitimize drug use, you say, “some adults choose that, and that is OK.” I disagree.

We aren’t talking about a matter of taste here, we are talking about illegal drug use that is detrimental to our society and your company is making a profit from it. I’m going to try to summarize your response, please let me know if I’ve got it wrong. Since I’m dealing with inference here it’s tricky.

“Adults may choose to use illegal drugs if they want to. As a merchant, I can sell them merchandise that supports their drug lifestyle and profit from it, regardless of the social harm illegal drugs and their users cause.”

What, ma’am, is incorrect about this statement or do I have it right?

You obviously feel really strongly about this issue Firebettle, and I respect that. I have never used illegal drugs in my life and have seen many a friend go down a bad road thanks to marijuana or other narcotics. I feel you. However I think you are grossly over-reacting here.

This doll is the first in a line called "Posers." This doll as a product does not say to me: "YEAH! USE MARIJUANA!" It says, marijuana is for posers (which is a word young people are very familar with and really don't want to be), and the doll looks ridiculous. I don't think this product celebrates marijuana culture, I think is comments on it.

Paizo does not sell any products that celebrate drug culture. They don't sell bongs, or other paraphenalia. Maybe this doll stuck a bad chord with you immediately and that's a fair reaction, however you might want to reconsider the product's design and name. As a Poser, it's obviously not trumpeting pot-smokers as "cool" or something to aspire to.

It's great to exercise your dollar vote by boycotting irresponsible companies, however I can't think of a more responsible one than Paizo. It's dangerous ground when we start punishing or berating companies or anyone for touching on subjects that have such a high impact on our...

I am normally not a big fan of your posts, but I have to say that was probably one of the best ones on this board by anyone and it captured my own feelings on the subject perfectly - certainly better than I would of done myself - thanks.

Dark Archive

Firebeetle wrote:
My anecdotes are testimony of a bonded, certified state employee

I can find twelve certified state employees down at my local DMV. I can't even trust them to accurately tell me what documentation I'll need to renew my driver's license.

Firebeetle wrote:
My anecdotes are the testimony of dedicated, college educated public servants

I remember an episode of SpongeBob Squarepants where one of Plankton's devious plots failed. As he was booted from the Krusty Krab back to the Chum Bucket, he screamed, "I went to collleeeeeeeeeeege!"

Silly potheads. No respect for the diploma. :/

Firebeetle wrote:
who are privy to information that the common citizen is not, we see the stories that others do not see. Serving an at risk population

So 'common citizens' have never been exposed to or experienced addiction, and are therefore not qualified to discuss it. Oooook!

Of particular interest is the 'serving an at risk population' bit.

Imagine if you were in customer service, and left work every day thoroughly convinced that every person with a cell phone spent four hours a day arguing over a five cent surcharge on their bill.

Or a person working collections for a utility company insisted that everyone who used natural gas was a deadbeat with $1500.00 in past due charges.

That's totally absurd, right?

Firebeetle wrote:
we have seen many die in accidents and murders, serve serious jail time (including two lifers), raped, abused, or just plain drop off the list of law-abiding society.

....and because you witnessed these horrible things, marijuana is psychotic that utterly compels its users to perform these heinous acts.

Firebeetle wrote:
Let's use another useless anecdote about a student from my first year.

It is, and let's not.

Unfortunately, her parents were losers, and copious smoking of marijuana did not suddenly (or even progressively) make them grossly incompetent. The fact that her mom or dad's brother was also a pile of crap may get that state-certified spider sense tingling about another problem, one perhaps leading back to the grandparents.

Firebeetle wrote:
I'm a Presbyterian, we are an incredibly mellow bunch. Mr. Rodgers was a Presbyterian,

And that dude was high about 95% of the time he was taping. Don't even try to say otherwise... Land of Make Believe, Trolley, magic pictures in the 'real' realm of the show....

Lady Fairchild was a straight-up coke FIEND, too. And the guy running the tiny rocking chair factory, sitting around all day... never saw him make ONE chair he didn't lounge around in. And the glasses, c'mon... playing the glaucoma card to try and get away with the ol "medicinal use" excuse.


bubbagump wrote:
Former cop here. Thanks for telling the truth, firebeetle. I've seen what pot can do in my own life (pre-getting-my-head-on-straight) and in my small rural town. It's a shame some people refuse to see the truth for what it is.

Thank you sir. It is much appreciated.


Nicolas Logue wrote:

This doll is the first in a line called "Posers." This doll as a product does not say to me: "YEAH! USE MARIJUANA!" It says, marijuana is for posers (which is a word young people are very familar with and really don't want to be), and the doll looks ridiculous. I don't think this product celebrates marijuana culture, I think is comments on it.

My sentiments exactly. (Phrased better by Nic Logue, though. :) )


Firebug, I too have seen what pot did in my own life, and to a certain extent agree with you. I'm not going to list off points where I disagree because I respect what you do and don't wish to get into a spat. Many of your generalizations have already been soundly refuted. Your anecdotes sadden me terribly.

Nevertheless, I have something to say to you. My opinion is that you are coming dangerously close (ED-I'm being way too nice here) to scapegoating marijuana when a lot of the problems you are talking about are familial, personal, and societal and are only aggravated by weed (just as they could be by alcohol). They are not caused by pot and I know this because I know far more people who have not been destroyed by this drug than those who have.

Also, I think your world view is suffering as a result of your work. I know that suffering from a pronounced negative world view is common among jobs such as grief counselors, police officers, social workers and crime reporters. The world of drugs is not the way you are seeing it any more than it is the way I personally saw it, and thus the things you say on these boards seem reactionary and extreme to some of us here who have different stories.

I could go on for days telling you stories about pot that do not involve people ruining their lives, some of which are quite droll, then roll out some stories of grief that results from cigarette smoking and alcohol, and construct my own narrative of evil that is quite contradictory to your own. You are not in here talking to a bunch of crack-heads who need to be saved from ourselves: a lot of us are pretty stable and intelligent people and your raging against weed is misplaced. Also, marijuana is NOT illegal for all of us, we are not all Americans. Please consider your audience here.

As a humanist, I thank you for the work you do. But I also think you really need to step back and look at yourself, how you are directing your anger, and where you are directing it because of these terrible things that you see in your life.


*You find yourselves riding into town just after dusk. Tired from your adventures, the warm glow of a hearth fire shines through the windows at an establishment named "Paizo's Rest" is a welcome sight. A stout halfling greets you at the door.*

"Hail high and well met road-weary travelers! My name is Paizo, and I'm the proprietor of this fine inn. I can tell by your dress that you're adventurers and crusaders of the noblest caliber. We have warm rooms, hot food, and cold drinks awaiting inside, if you'll simply dismount and follow me inside I'll make ready... What's that? Ho ho ho! No, sadly our rooms can't accommodate your mounts. You'll have to leave them in the sta... Yes, I realize that they're 'special' mounts. I can tell that by how tall they are, but beasts of burden aren't allowed inside and... Wait, what? Bring a table out to the stables? Well, I guess if that's... Huh? No, I'm not going to stack two tables so you eat while astride your horses. Just simply dismount! ... What? Why? Are you under some sort of curse that compels you to remain seated upon that tall equine of yours? 'You just like being there'? Gods, trinkets, and furry feet, you're stubborn! There's no reason to stay up there. Just simply hop off your high horses and come inside. ... FINE! Go find room and board somewhere else! Addled-brained adventurers! 'I won't come down off my high horse for some halfling', indeed!"

*He slams the door behind him as walks back into the inn.*

...

*You guys encounter a gazebo...*


Firebeetle wrote:
Kirth Gersen wrote:
Firebeetle wrote:
Marijuana, like any drug, is evil.
I love my morning cup of coffee, and for you or anyone else to take it away from me because caffeine is a drug (and therefore "evil") would be totally uncalled-for.
Get over yourself. I'm talking specifically about marijuana, an illegal and illicit drug. Not car accidents, or caffeine, or Japanese pornography. Straw man arguments are a fallacy, let's stuff them away shall we?

Ah, the infallible latter-day fallback for someone whose position has crumbled; the ever-popular shout of "straw man!" Let's examine one of mine. Caffeine is a drug. It is physically and psychologically addictive, causing physical withdrawal systems when withheld from a habitual user. It is "mind-altering" insofar as alertness is heightened, and IQ test results can indicate as much as a 20-point difference depending on the presence or absence of the drug in one's system. It is aggressively pushed on a hapless populace in the form of "energy drinks" and to children in the form of sweet, milkshake-like "mochaccinos." Indeed, it fits ALL of your definitions for marijuana with the sole exception that it is legal, and marijuana is not.

So the straw man in this case is stuffed with bricks. I support the right of people to choose to use caffeine, despite all of the above. And in this case, Paizo isn't even pushing the caffeine itself (to continue the comparison), but something rather more along the lines of the equivalent of a T-shirt with the chemical symbol for caffeine on it (which are freely sold at the local mall). I also notice that your "scathing rebuttal" lacked any reference to the fact that, even if caffeine were illegal, in the U.S. I could still wear that same T-shirt. And that's the crux of the argument here: one can be anti-marijuana, but still support the rights of people on both sides to debate the issue freely. The basis of your posts is that, because you provide anecdotal correlations between marijuana and depravity, that no-one on the pro-legalization side should be permitted to espouse that view in a public forum.

Lastly, I might mention that "get over yourself" in reference to me is hardly appropriate, insofar as you're the one on the soapbox. I myself am undecided as to where I stand on the legalization issue, but I am committed to a society where censorship is minimal. (By the way, if we're looking for "straw men," your previous argument regarding Maxim's absence in public libraries is a prime candidate--Paizo is not publically-funded with tax dollars).


I just had a lot of reading to do to catch up on this thread, and first I'd like to say that it's nice to see people on both sides (and the places in between) stand up for what they believe. That gives me some hope when sometimes I don't see people care about much besides their clothes and catching a movie the next weekend.

That being said, I'm a little disturbed by some of the reactions. I can understand people being offended by Firebeetle's stance, but it's not like it isn't obvious that he's working really, really hard with something very serious and basically good and it's clearly affecting his stance on the issue.

I'm okay with him being a "zealot" about something if it's a result of caring too much. He's not out shooting anyone or actually affecting any of our rights or being a terrorist or mafia hitman. He's just a guy who needs to vent because he's tough enough to do some hard work that needs doing. That'd wear me down worse than it has him.

If you don't like his soap box, move on. Sounds like he's doing a lot of good in the real world; doesn't mean we have to like him or listen to him here. I haven't seen anyone swayed by his opinion to not buy from Paizo because of a doll, and it doesn't really make me mad that his opinion differs from mine or that he's wrong about some stuff, or even that he won't buy from Paizo anymore. I dig that he cares, though, and I for sure wouldn't ever want to add to the burdens of someone out there trying to do some good.


Sean, Minister of KtSP wrote:
You say all marijuana use is evil? Evil is a really strong word. Perhaps the reason for your zealotry (something I disdain no matter what its cause) is that you have strong religious beliefs on the subject? Satan is twirling his moustache somewhere and laughing evilly every time someone lights up a joint somewhere? If religion is, in fact, the cause of...

I think this post particularly needs to be commented on before I move on, though.

First of all, not everyone who stands up for something in a real way and not just on messageboards does so because they're "religious". There was pretty much no reason to bring this into the discussion, as Firebeetle never mentioned a religious word (and evil is hardly a religious-only idea).

Second, I'm pretty sure you're on target as far as offending people who are religious/spiritual, too. Not everyone who believes in God and Satan assume he's behind marijuana, or even that marijuana is expressly bad.

Again, just to play the devil's advocate, as it were, you did a fair bit of berating in using ideas like "spin" and "emotional manipulation", then tossed in Satan twirling his moustache and using things like "silly boycott", and seemingly in defense of you being offended. Seems ironic on a few levels.


Kyr wrote:
Nicolas Logue wrote:
Kyr wrote:


I am normally not a big fan of your posts, but I have to say that was probably one of the best ones on this board by anyone and it captured my own feelings on the subject perfectly - certainly better than I would of done myself - thanks.

One last oddity: seriously, someone is not a big fan of Logue's posts?


Riskbreaker wrote:
I dig that he cares, though, and I for sure wouldn't ever want to add to the burdens of someone out there trying to do some good.

Nothing wrong with trying to do good, and he has the absolute right to get his message across. But Prohibition was well-intentioned, and I think so was McCarthy. I think what got people riled up was the initial post:

Firebeetle wrote:
I really hope I can spend money on Paizo products again. Send this doll back to the manufacturer now.

He can boycott if he likes, of course, but to peremptorily command Paizo to discontinue the sale of the item--as if the company and everyone else on the thread were his personal lackeys, subject to his opinion in all things--well, that was a bit hard to swallow. I respect his right to speak his mind, but I don't grant him the right to tell everyone else what to do.

That said, I'd very much like to see some well-reasoned arguments against marijuana use here-- ones that respect the difference between correspondence and causality, for example, and which rely on research and scientific evidence rather than rhetoric and anecdotes.

Oh, and one final observation: that doll is really lame. I wouldn't wonder that any purchases of it they've actually had (if any) have been spurred by the free advertising provided by the controversy on thread. Otherwise, it would probably have been pulled by now due to sheer lack of interest.


Kirth Gersen wrote:
Riskbreaker wrote:
I dig that he cares, though, and I for sure wouldn't ever want to add to the burdens of someone out there trying to do some good.

Nothing wrong with trying to do good, and he has the absolute right to get his message across. But Prohibition was well-intentioned, and I think so was McCarthy. I think what got people riled up was the initial post:

Firebeetle wrote:
I really hope I can spend money on Paizo products again. Send this doll back to the manufacturer now.

He can boycott if he likes, of course, but to peremptorily command Paizo to discontinue the sale of the item--as if the company and everyone else on the thread were his personal lackeys, subject to his opinion in all things--well, that was a bit hard to swallow. I respect his right to speak his mind, but I don't grant him the right to tell everyone else what to do.

Well stated. I guess I just got over the initial bit pretty quick, as I bet the Paizo people did without much more thought.

Kirth Gersen wrote:


That said, I'd very much like to see some well-reasoned arguments against marijuana use here-- ones that respect the difference between correspondence and causality, for example, and which rely on research and scientific evidence rather than rhetoric and anecdotes.

Sadly, I'm not in a position to argue. I generally find myself in a minority in such debates, in that I don't have enough knowledge to present facts and I don't have enough evidence from other sources to choose a side.

However, I will say that if everyone cared about their neighbors, friends and family and themselves in a much more sincere, selfless and corn-ball way (think Pay it Forward, if you caught that one), issues like this would iron themselves out. So I'd rather fight for the whole love thy neighbor cause instead of getting confused by all the other hyper-complex issues in this world.


Riskbreaker wrote:
However, I will say that if everyone cared about their neighbors, friends and family and themselves in a much more sincere, selfless and corn-ball way (think Pay it Forward, if you caught that one), issues like this would iron themselves out. So I'd rather fight for the whole love thy neighbor cause instead of getting confused by all the other hyper-complex issues in this world.

I can definitely respect that, Riskbreaker. I think a lot of evil is done when people place causes ahead of the people those causes are supposed to be serving.

Liberty's Edge

The sad irony of this whole thread, for me anyway, is that it directly draws attention to the stupid doll. I personally would've never even been aware of it if it weren't for this thread. It's like Gene Simmons says: "there's no such thing as bad publicity."


Kirth Gersen wrote:
Oh, and one final observation: that doll is really lame. I wouldn't wonder that any purchases of it they've actually had (if any) have been spurred by the free advertising provided by the controversy on thread. Otherwise, it would probably have been pulled by now due to sheer lack of interest.
Heathansson wrote:
The sad irony of this whole thread, for me anyway, is that it directly draws attention to the stupid doll. I personally would've never even been aware of it if it weren't for this thread. It's like Gene Simmons says: "there's no such thing as bad publicity."

Time machine again, dude.

Liberty's Edge

Sorry, dude.

Paizo Employee Managing Developer

Dude.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Companion, Maps, Pathfinder Accessories, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Charter Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Aubrey the Malformed wrote:
I forgot to mention the crime committed to fund illegal drug use.

The real solution is to legalize the drugs (or maybe just some of the much more benign ones like marijuana (Oh no! Devil weed!) and hallucinogens (can any sane, reasonable, and educated person who has done their research, ignoring superstition and legend, explain to me why I shouldn't be able to just walk into a store here in the States and buy a bottle of absinthe?) and all those problems you mentioned will start to go away. Not entirely (legalizing the sale of illicit drugs is as likely to end terrorism as would, I don't know, wasting billions of dollars and human lives waging a war on it), but it would be a good start. Besides, it's not like there's a narcotic out there that's any more damaging or lethal than alcohol or Bacon, Egg, and Cheese Croissan'wiches.


On the one hand, I am rather enjoying the free and mostly intelligent discourse over this product. On the other, I am mildly annoyed with some of the more... heated attempts of people on both sides of this discussion to defend their posistions.

No one denies that drugs, or cigarettes, or alcohol are bad. Even those who use any of the above know this. Legalization or not, people will continue to use these products. Witness the poster who, however jokingly, said they would grow and sell black market coffee, should caffeine be outlawed (while the statement was made in jest, you know that it would happen). Now, some say that perhaps the "allure" of it being a societal taboo won't be a draw into drug use among young people if it were legal. In my experience, though, people who get into drug use aren't doing it as any sort of "rebellion"... that idea seems more than antiquated these days.

Mind you, I am in no way a professional, or anyone with any sort of certification or degree. I am merely a well read individual, who has made some unfortunate choices in the past. But, to my experience, most drug use seems to occur as misguided attempts at some sort of coping mechanism by individuals who perceive, on some level, that their lives are varied degrees of unpleasant or difficult or miserable. Your mileage may vary, but in most cases cited here, drug use was present, but there were other underlying factors involved that haven't been discussed. To lay the blame entirely on the drugs is akin to the statements and theories in the 80s that placed suicides by young people in the hands of roleplaying games and various music genres.

Reminder, I am not a credited scientist or physician, and I do not mean to devalue any one person's profession, or life experiences. I am not, at this time, a user of any sort of drug. I do not condone or approve of drug use amongst my friends - in so much as, if they chooe to use it, they not use it around me. I have seen people who were both in the "I use it, and nothing happened to me" camp (who, outside of their drug use led normal, unassuming, law-abiding lives - as many of my friends). I have also seen drugs motivate some scary life choices (breaking and entering, theft, assault, and even a 12 year old who was trading their body for and performing sexual favors to obtain drugs).

Personal attacks, and attacks against one's property - these I do not value as supports to one's arguments. Sadly, these things will happen anytime you have a segment of the population who disagrees with ideas you may be expressing. To illustrate, years ago, when I was in high school, a student publically admitted to being gay. He was promptly beaten, and his house burned down. Such attacks, to me, demonstrate more humanity's sometimes inability to have a more reasoned discourse, and may be rooted in either some sort of primal nature, or whatever causes some persons to believe that violence is an acceptable solution to one's problems.

But, we can sit around throwing anecdotes and statistics all day. Unfortunately, anecdotes are drawn from our own experiences. And mine are different than yours. Such is life. As for statistics, the problem with statistics is that, once you torture them long enough, they will admit to anything. The American government says unemployment is at an all time low. Congratulations! More people are working now, then were working last year. Now, let's ask the question: How many of those people are underemployed? Sure, they're working, but are they actually supporting themselves?

OK, I have gone on long enough. I will, hopefully not have anything further to say here, but will continue to read the thread, as it in turns amuses and annoys me. I like that. Oh, random fun fact, and wildly off topic, who here has read that caffeine is actually a poison? A self defense mechanism by the plants that produce it to kill other plants that may be trying to grow in the soil they are growing in. Sadly, these same plants are not immune to their own posion, and eventually kill themselves when caffeine levels in the soil become too high even for them. I can't prove or disprove this, but I think it's funny.


Just want to throw in (probably has been mentioned) that the only thing that makes marijuana bad is that it's illegal.

If you get drunk (a perfectly legal thing, technically), you are both becoming out of your head (as marijuana would do) and dangerous (as marijuana might do).

So the only difference is that marijuana is illegal. There are plenty of legal things that can get you into as bad a state as weed will.


Just wanted to throw in that the argument that because one thing is legal and just as bad/worse than marijuana means marijuana is not really bad is not an argument at all. Law isn't about bad vs. good, which is what we are discussing here; law is about order vs. chaos, a different subject entirely.

What is "evil" (I use the word because it has been used to describe marijuana in this discussion) is not inherantly unlawful (see lawful evil as a D&D alignment for reference), just as what is "good" is not always legal (see Emancipation Proclamation, women's suffrage, civil rights).

We're not necessarily in the middle of a golden age where everything legal right now is good and everything illegal right now is wrong (see gay marriage, abortion, aggressive action against nonaggressive country/s). Those individual subjects are essentially on massive islands of their own, and thus require an entirely different discussion each.

I believe the original poster intended to imply that marijuana use is wrong, and just because he didn't also directly state that he believes alcohol abuse and abuse of over-the-counter drugs is wrong doesn't mean he doesn't believe it. Although he does use legality as a backup to his arguments, that's a gray area in a lot of ways (medicinal use, legality in countries besides his own, etc).

As a final note, errors such as the legality argument on the part of anyone does not also falsify the rest of that person's arguments. Just don't make an erroneous argument your entire argument.


Hey guys, I used to be a regular toker, anyways, firebeetle, no matter how many things you have seen or done, it is not the drug, it is the person. And if you still think its the Reefer madness is making these pepole do horrible things, it's thier fault, I've never seen someone have a join stuck in thier mouth, lit, and get kicked in the gut so they inhale.


Riskbreaker wrote:


That being said, I'm a little disturbed by some of the reactions. I can understand people being offended by Firebeetle's stance, but it's not like it isn't obvious that he's working really, really hard with something very serious and basically good and it's clearly affecting his stance on the issue.

I'm okay with him being a "zealot" about something if it's a result of caring too much. He's not out shooting anyone or actually affecting any of our rights or being a terrorist or mafia hitman. He's just a guy who needs to vent because he's tough enough to do some hard work that needs doing. That'd wear me down worse than it has him.

If you don't like his soap box, move on. Sounds like he's doing a lot of good in the real world; doesn't mean we have to like him or listen to him here. I haven't seen anyone swayed by his opinion to not buy from Paizo because of a doll, and it doesn't really make me mad that his opinion differs from mine or that he's wrong about some stuff, or even that he won't buy from Paizo anymore. I dig that he cares, though, and I for sure wouldn't ever want to add to the burdens of someone out there trying to do some good.

Thank you Riskbreaker. I really appreciate your comments. They made my day.


pullups wrote:
Hey guys, I used to be a regular toker, anyways, firebeetle, no matter how many things you have seen or done, it is not the drug, it is the person. And if you still think its the Reefer madness is making these pepole do horrible things, it's thier fault, I've never seen someone have a join stuck in thier mouth, lit, and get kicked in the gut so they inhale.

As I've said, drug use is a choice. The choice to use an illegal drug, such a marijuana, is to make a choice that is detrimental to our society. In short, the consequences are more than just yourself, it affects all of us. Thus, we do not tolerate the message that drug use is OK.

How many times to I have to say this? How many times do I have to restate this?


Firebeetle wrote:
How many times to I have to say this? How many times do I have to restate this?

Restating is obviously not effective; indeed, it seems to quickly be rallying people to the opposite cause from the one you espouse. Unless that was you're purpose, I'd again suggest that a few well-reasoned arguments against marijuana use--ones that respect the difference between correspondence and causality, for example, and which rely on research and scientific evidence rather than rhetoric and anecdotes-- would doubtless be of vastly more use to your cause than merely telling people what to do. Likewise, appealing to people's reason-- instead of simply commanding them and assuming they'll obey--might work wonders.


Canada Tokes

The above report says that Canada tokes 4 times more than the world average. While we have our fair share of problems I think if drugs were the sole or even partial cause for the degradation of society then with 16% of our 15 – 64 year old population smoking pot shouldn’t I be living in a country tearing itself to pieces?

UN Report mentioned in article

Cannabis specific details in UN Report

That being said I don’t think drug abuse is even remotely positive. By abuse I mean daily smoking or perhaps 2 or 3 times a week. Once every other weekend I consider leisure. There is a fine line between abuse and leisure and unfortunately it is hard to identify except by the suffering you cause yourself or others once you have stepped over it.

As for being a gateway drug, I’m not sure. The CBC report says we have a higher than average use of Cocaine at 2.6%. But our heroin, ecstasy, and amphetamines are below the world average. I realize you can’t draw valid conclusions from the stats; but the irregularity would seem to me to at least suggest that drawing a connection between marijuana and hard drugs doesn’t pan out with the usage stats.

As far as crime and marijuana go here is a line from the UN report on cannabis.

“…cannabis production in Canada is important it remains
significantly lower than in the USA or in Mexico.
Canada is, however, an important source country for
high THC cannabis consumed and trafficked into the
USA. Such cannabis production in Canada is controlled
by Asian crime groups (often ethnic Chinese and Vietnamese).
Some of these groups are thought to have relocated
their indoor activities into the US17Pacific
Northwest and to California18, in order to avoid tightened
border controls.”

That’s on page 7 of the cannabis specific report. So if your smoking killer BC bud there is a chance you are supporting crime.

As for the issue at hand, I don’t mind Paizo selling the doll in question. Whether your addicted to marijuana or your addicted to whiskey you have an addictive personality. There are ways to deal with that personality. 12 step groups offer one solution. There are others, psychology, RAND corporation classes, pills (yeah you can get pills to help with addiction, go figure). I have my preference. It works for me. What I’m saying is unless we not only outlaw but eradicate every mind altering substance on the planet people with addictive personalities are going to get their fix and in so doing harm themselves and others. I think the better solution is addressing the need to ‘escape’.

I can’t quote a source for this and I’m not sure even if I could the validity of it. Anyway supposedly 10% of the human population has an addictive personality. This may be way low or way high. My point is not everyone has such a personality and denying them access, to drugs, in order to ‘save’ those who do have an addictive personality seems wrong to me. The substance is not the problem it is a symptom of the problem, which is often insecurity, lack of focus, and feelings of being alone to name a few. Taking away the drugs while allowing the addictive person to cope does not fix them. The problem is much deeper than any substance can go.

I say legalize drugs, address the social problems it creates and improve the lives of those people who do become addicted. In a way falling down the rabbit hole is a blessing (if you manage to claw your way back up). You discover more about yourself and your personality than you ever would had you simply lived your life suffering from feelings of anxiety, rage, insecurity, hopelessness et al.

Liam


MaxSlasher26 wrote:

Just want to throw in (probably has been mentioned) that the only thing that makes marijuana bad is that it's illegal.

If you get drunk (a perfectly legal thing, technically), you are both becoming out of your head (as marijuana would do) and dangerous (as marijuana might do).

So the only difference is that marijuana is illegal. There are plenty of legal things that can get you into as bad a state as weed will.

I've hit upon this as well. Basic fallacy. Your argument is alcohol is legal, marijuana is illegal. Both are bad. Marijuana should therefore be legal. Non Sequitor. Legal or not, marijuana is still bad.

I'm not discussing alcohol. Yes, it's bad. So is smoking. They are the three gateway drugs. Each must be fought in a different way. I'm discussing marijuana on this thread. No alcohol, smoking, caffeine, ammodium AD, aspirin, Tylenol, or otherwise.


Kirth Gersen wrote:
Firebeetle wrote:
Kirth Gersen wrote:
Firebeetle wrote:
Marijuana, like any drug, is evil.
I love my morning cup of coffee, and for you or anyone else to take it away from me because caffeine is a drug (and therefore "evil") would be totally uncalled-for.
Get over yourself. I'm talking specifically about marijuana, an illegal and illicit drug. Not car accidents, or caffeine, or Japanese pornography. Straw man arguments are a fallacy, let's stuff them away shall we?

Ah, the infallible latter-day fallback for someone whose position has crumbled; the ever-popular shout of "straw man!" Let's examine one of mine. Caffeine is a drug. It is physically and psychologically addictive, causing physical withdrawal systems when withheld from a habitual user. It is "mind-altering" insofar as alertness is heightened, and IQ test results can indicate as much as a 20-point difference depending on the presence or absence of the drug in one's system. It is aggressively pushed on a hapless populace in the form of "energy drinks" and to children in the form of sweet, milkshake-like "mochaccinos." Indeed, it fits ALL of your definitions for marijuana with the sole exception that it is legal, and marijuana is not.

So the straw man in this case is stuffed with bricks.

Let's see. Your statement is that caffeine is a drug as bad as marijuana. Your straw man isn't full of bricks, I suspect it's full of grass. . .


Firebeetle wrote:
Let's see. Your statement is that caffeine is a drug as bad as marijuana. Your straw man isn't full of bricks, I suspect it's full of grass...

By your previous logic, it should be considered so; I don't. But OK, if now you too are allowing that some drugs are in fact worse than others, we're making progress in the right direction. The next step is to figure out why, given the rates of crystal meth use in the U.S.--especially among at-risk youth--you're on a crusade against marijuana instead. A reason people can accept (none of this "gateway" nonsense; more teens than ever, by recent surveys, are starting with meth and only then, if ever, trying marijuana) would be a useful starting point for further dialogue. Yes, I know the doll here has a marijuana theme, but cough syrup sold elsewhere is both more prevailant and, when made into meth, vastly more harmful. If you can show me evidence that you're combating that as well, I'll give you all the credit in the world. Until then, I'm still not really clear what you're up to here.


I've had a lot of requests for research. I'm in the middle of researching for my Ed Specialist thesis, so my progress here is slow but forthcoming. I actually a research guy, but find anecdotes are more powerful rhetoric for most.

I thought it was perfectly clear, but I'll make it clear. I'm talking about illegal drug use, obviously marijuana use in particular. I am not discussing legal drugs. Yes, I agree alcohol and smoking are very, very bad. We've certainly lost kids to alcohol too. That is another topic. I apologize deeply for any confusion because I didn't put "illegal" or "illicit" EVERY SINGLE TIME.

Yes, I'm telling Paizo what to sell and what not to sell. Ownership is not a moral good by itself. This store serves our community, note that verb SERVES. We, the customer, have every right to dictate how our community will be served. We do not have to accept our lot like little lambs and spend our money dutifully regardless of how we feel. I was hoping for more support, but working without support is something I'm used to and I'm already working on other strategies.

I must ask Ms. Stevens how you would feel if your employees bought this doll or played Stoner Fluxx on their breaks? Would she feel so comfortable about this merchandise then? Would it factor into their evaluations? Does Paizo have a drug policy Ms. Stevens? Is drug use grounds for termination at Paizo?

Finally, I'm not saying terrible things would not happen without drug use. I am saying that drugs are that contributing factor that can only be overcome by sheer force of will. For those who don't deal with addicts, drugs become as important to them as food, water, or air. They do anything for that drug. Some people would still do terrible things, but I know many kids whose lives would have been better if they or their parents were not users. I know a boy scout who would still be alive, a valedictorian candidate who wouldn't be in jail now instead (dealing marijuana at school, user kept his numbers on his cell phone), a young man who would not be haunted by the memory of shooting his best friend in a moment of supreme stupidity.

You are D&D players for Pete's sake! Do you fail to fight the orcs just because they'll be reanimated as zombies? Do you stop the dungeon crawl because you know you're not high enough level to beat the dragon? No! You do what you can. You keep chipping away at that evil with the full knowledge that no matter how hard you try, you'll never get it all.

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