I was looking at the Frenzied Berserker class. I liked it by looking at it, but I have never played one. However, I have heard some bad things about this class, with the word munchkin usually involved.
Does anyone have any experience with the Frenzied Berserker?
I will say I did have a powergasum when I saw that Frenzy and Rage stack, however you do get all the penalties to.
Fizz
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The description in CW is a little unclear, too. In one place, it implies that Inspire Frenzy affects all willing allies (sounds voluntary), then in the example PC stats, it says that IF affect all allies who fail a DC17 Will save (sounds involuntary).
I'd say play one, but ensure your allies have a wand of Sleep handy. Or a big rubber mallet.
This is one of the few things I absolutely loathe and will not permit into my games under any circumstance. They have made an appearance in my games before, and that's what drove in the last nail on their coffin, so far as I'm concerned.
Barbarians are already the best melee damage dealers of any class in the PHB. But wait! Here, have some more awesomeness. For free! Oh, I'm sorry, it's not completely free. You'll have to pay the price and make the horrible sacrifice of making very intelligent feat choices.
Bleh!
Beyond its being overpowered (and, oh gods, is it overpowered!), it's completely awkward. Your armor class falls to abysmal levels, but who cares? Almost any attack which has to interact with AC won't make a bit of difference. You can't die! Except, that you're almost guaranteed to take enough damage that you are in severe risk of death as soon as you come out of the frenzy/rage. Gee, that's fun; using my primary ability involves an extremely high chance of me dying within two minutes!
Oh, and let's not forget the horrid potential of this class when it comes to the rest of the party. Considering that frenzied berserkers don't have total control over their rage, let's say they fight some kobolds in a random encounter and roll a 1 on that save to resist going into frenzy. Well, someone in the party likely just died or came very close to it. All of a sudden, the berserker cleaves through the rest of the kobolds, and then, with no other threat, charges the wizard and kills him, too.
Of course, once you're in the raging frenzy (which you'd probably only activate both abilities willingly), you get a pretty nice bonus to Will saves, so actually coming out of it isn't too hard, which thens makes the supposedly balancing factor of putting the rest of your party at risk of death by your hands (which is a terrible and stupid idea for "balance") not even that likely of an outcome. Escpecially since anyone taking this route is likely to get a fairly decent cloak of resistance (as if all adventurers didn't do that all ready), which just makes their Will saves that much higher.
Oh, and let's not forget inspire frenzy. The only thing I can even begin to say towards that is "WTF?"
No, the frenzied berserker is a terrible PrC and should be avoided and disallowed at all times.
RPG Superstar 2013 Top 32
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Rage and Frenzy aren't the big problem with this PrC. The real problem is the Supreme Cleave and Supreme Power Attack. With a two-handed weapon, the 30-Strength-having Frenzied Berzerker is capable of taking a -5 to hit in exchange for a +20 to damage. And, if he kills someone, he may take a 5-foot-step to continue Cleaving through, potentially walking his way through ranks of enemies.
Combine the Supreme Power Attack with Leap Attack (feat in the Complete Warrior) and you've got some seriously disgusting damage output. A -5 penalty translates into +30 damage!!!!!!
They can be really broken. Case in point: A red dragon lunges out of a pool of lava and breathes on the party. Next round, berserker rages, does over 100 points of damage to dragon. Dragon retreats into pool, frenzied berserker jumps in. Dragon drags berserker under surface. The cleric then wanted to use a stone shape to make a platform that would lift the dragon and berserker out of the pool, so we had an hour long discussion about engenieering such a bridge. Anyway, dragon and berserker are lifted out of pool, cleric then casts a wall of stone with a hole in it so he could heal the berserker. At this point the berserker is at about -150 hp. Next round, the cleric heals, brings berserker out of negatives, dragon knocks him back down to around -100 with a full attack. Berserker kills dragon, cleric heals him again, and then retreats with fly while berserker smashes through wall of stone and hacks at the ground. This happened in one of my campagains, and immeadeately after, frenzied berserkers became permenantly banned for my group.
And, if he kills someone, he may take a 5-foot-step to continue Cleaving through, potentially walking his way through ranks of enemies.
This is actually incorrect. The frenzied berserker can only make one five foot step in any given round regardless of why they made it, so they can't wade through ranks of enemies. So if they take a five foot step to kill off a bunch of guys after a cleave, they can't take another. If they take a five foot step before killing anyone, they can't take another.
And they /can/ be killed. They simply ignore HP loss until the rage ends. And disintegrate is specifically listed as having normal effect - IE, if they take enough damage that they'd be slain, they're nothing but a pile of dust. So hey, there's an easy kill. Wait until the FB is in the negatives, then hit him with a disintegrate. He's dust no matter what. :)
These guys have a high damage output, but the cost is that they're really vulnerable to any enemy with some brains about them. Calm Emotions or any spell that could potentially end the rage, any spell that kills them outright, /tactics/... all work against the FB.
And...
Why is a red dragon going toe to toe with a warrior? Blind arrogance? Fly, spew fire at the guy, throw down some spells. While the FB was in the lava, was he ever at risk of drowning (they can't breathe molten rock, you know)? Did you impose the penalties for being underwater (he's trying to sling a weapon in something that's at best runny as water, and at worst thick as sludge)? Did you dish out damage to his items? Did the dragon get total concealment since the FB couldn't actually /see/ in molten lava?
Also, Saern, I'm curious. I don't recall whether you ever mentioned seeing the class in play. What's your own personal experience with them? (I'm honestly curious, not trying to be a jerk)
Oh, and let's not forget inspire frenzy. The only thing I can even begin to say towards that is "WTF?"
Aw c'mon, it's just the basic frenzy. It's not like he inspires deathless frenzy or any of the improvements in his allies. IMO, this ability is great for a FB with a few low level underlings (ala Leadership). Or, say, for the BBEG of a particular encounter - The Orc Warlord the party is trying to put an end to, for example.
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Also, Saern, I'm curious. I don't recall whether you ever mentioned seeing the class in play. What's your own personal experience with them? (I'm honestly curious, not trying to be a jerk)
He mentioned in the first sentence of his post...
They have made an appearance in my games before, and that's what drove in the last nail on their coffin, so far as I'm concerned.
I'm not sure calm emotions would actually be that effective against a frenzied berserker. For starters, it's a 2nd level spell which is going to be used against something of around 8th+ level. Secondly, it requires concentration, after which time (or if said concentration is broken), the frenzy returns. Third, anyone going into frenzied berserker is likely going to try to boost their Will save to gain as much control (hah!) over their frenzy as possible. Combine this with the fact that frenzied berserkers are designed for barbarians (which means both that they are likely to have a higher Wisdom than a fighter and get another +2 bonus on Will saves from rage), and it dovetails nicely with the first point to make calm emotions and similar effects a risky tactic. Finally, one might assume a BBEG would try to use calm emotions or something similar to kill a frenzied berserker by dropping him out of frenzy, but that would require the DM to provide his villains with rather mechanical and metagame knowledge about a relatively obscure type of warrior.
Disintegrate is always a good thing for enemies to have; however, it can have some difficulty taking down even a normal barbarian or fighter, and frenzied berserkers are that much tougher. Furthermore, an intelligent enemy (such as one who has access to this spell) is likely aware that it's weakest against brutes like barbarians and fighters. Even when they are weak, the disintigrate is likely to do a whole lot less against such characters than other spells in their arsenal (see: fireball). Unfortunately, fireball isn't going to stop a frenzied berserker anymore than a greatsword to the brain (as crazy as that sounds). Not quite as much metagaming on the foe's part, but still close to the line.
Be prepared to have one really POed DM and eventually some equally POed players. I know from personal experience that FBs are supposed to be restricted to NPCs, and then only against the most insane powergamer PCs.
My advice: do yourself a favor and play a barbarian, not a BARBARIAN!!!!!!!!
Xellan I'm not sure that I understand your argument.
These guys have a high damage output, but the cost is that they're really vulnerable to any enemy with some brains about them.
As Searn said the high intelligence enemies would likely try to use conventional tactics of dealing with barbarians, at least at first (good luck with them lasting long enough to realize their mistake).
Calm Emotions or any spell that could potentially end the rage, any spell that kills them outright,
It kills them if they are already below -10. They have a LOT of hit points and nothing lasts very long in melee with them so that in and of itself is a large hurdle before one could even attempt a tactic with relatively low chances of success and requiring suspiciously intimate knowledge of a characters class abilities.
/tactics/... all work against the FB.
I don't see how tactics are any more severe a deterrent to a FB than they are to any other class or monster. In fact, PC's are famous for using tactics to overcome specific weaknesses and make sure the character in question gets to do their job. Fly and Mind Blank have always been really popular choices for boosting Melee warriors and they do no less for a frenzied berserker.
I've played alongside frenzied berserkers and seen how much power they are capeable of bringing to bear. Put a frenzied berzerker and a normal fighter in the same party and see if the fighter still has a chance of making an impact in combat. Any melee monster that can even challenge the berserker would be a death sentance to the fighter (and likely to many other party members). A monster that challenges the fighter would be a puddle at his feet as soon as the berzerker had his first turn.
In the game we played everyone lived in fear of the Berserker. Lots of spells in the casters arsenal were designed to deter or escape the berserker, rather that fight enemies. And yes, because of the massive boost to str that berserkers get in combination with rage and frenzy the frenzied berzerker could charge and kill the weakest member of the party at full hit points easily with his massive to hit bonus. If he managed to get a critical (with his keen falcion) and another party member happened to be within reach, thats two (or more) dead party members in one round (and he still can keep going if he keeps failing saves). God help you if he still has haste on him when he goes psycho.
Frenzied Berserker gets hit with a poison dart trap for one damage and isn't effected by the poison (naturally). The only targets of his Frenzy happen to be the party members following behind him, foolishly relying on their so called "friend" for protection rather than mindless and unprovoked murder.
The Berserker gets no significant weaknesses to balance their incredible class benefits (a.k.a. doubling the damage output of a standard barbarian).
The "weakness" is a possible death sentance to allies! That's the equivalent to making a PrC for sorcerers that maximizes all your spells damage so long as one or more of your allies will take damage from it.
The "weakness" is a possible death sentance to allies! That's the equivalent to making a PrC for sorcerers that maximizes all your spells damage so long as one or more of your allies will take damage from it.
Ha. I can't help but wonder how many people would take that PrC. "Who cares about my party/minions/hired soldiers? Did you see the size of that fireball!?!"
But then again, I generally loathe spellcasting...
As for the FB, yeah. Ban it. A friend of mine made a Duskblade/Fighter who had the frenzy ablility (<-- DM allowed it for PC flavor/background purposes. Heck, I was the one that originally pointed him at the frenzy ability when he was fleshing out the char... Hindsight is 20/20 afterall). It was "balanced out" by having him roll % everytime he attacked/recieved damage to see if he'd frenzy. He couldn't do it at will, but it always happened anyway.
Needless to say, he's a powergamer. (But judging by the reaction I got from everyone about my Assassin build in another thread, I powergame as well...) Everyone in our group is pretty much used to him and his chars, but this PC of his really irked me inside...
-Kurocyn
Also, Saern, I'm curious. I don't recall whether you ever mentioned seeing the class in play. What's your own personal experience with them? (I'm honestly curious, not trying to be a jerk)He mentioned in the first sentence of his post...
They have made an appearance in my games before, and that's what drove in the last nail on their coffin, so far as I'm concerned.
Doh. Thanks. I somehow missed that part. It still leaves me curious about the actual details, any particular incidents that stand out in his mind, that sort of thing.
I've never had anyone play one of them in any game I've ran or played in, so I have no personal experiences to draw on. I see their strengths, but I don't see anything about the class that would make me shy away from it out of hand.
One significant problem I have with the class is that the frenzy essentially takes control of the character out of the player's hands. They can't end the frenzy voluntarily, they risk entering it involuntarily, and they /have/ to attack their friends or bystanders if no enemies are around. That's the part that really turns me off.
Another problem I see with the FB is that it tends to make combat less about the group working as a team, and puts the focus on the FB. The party healer will have to be mindful of the FB's hit points. One of the spellcasters will need a spell prepped at all times to end the frenzy. /Everybody/ has to be ready to run when the time comes. I can see a group of characters (and players) getting sick of that after a while.
The 'can't die' aspect of the deathless frenzy doesn't bother me mostly because I just can't see myself throwing many encounters at a party where the enemy damage output is in the stratosphere (except maybe in epic levels). The above example of the FB being at -150 doesn't strike me as something that would (or should, anyway) be a regular occurrence.
So... I'd be interested in hearing more personal accounts of how a FB stomped all over an encounter.
And, I just wanted to add: Disintegrate is an excellent kill spell no matter who you wield it against. Even if the save is made, if the 5d6 is enough to reduce the target to less than 0 HP, they're entirely disintegrated. So if you use it against a FB in the negatives, it's an auto-kill. Poof. Dust. (Same goes for any character on the verge of dying)
So... I'd be interested in hearing more personal accounts of how a FB...
Well there was the time my player's FB went toe to toe with a bone ooze. The entire combat was the FB's turn, but that mostly because it was so easy to hit the ooze that the FB was able to Power Attack for everything and hit it all four times.
Later on I put him underwater and that seemed to slow his killing although.
(But judging by the reaction I got from everyone about my Assassin build in another thread, I powergame as well...)
Speaking of which, you're welcome for all the work I posted on options for your familiar...
I have been considering FB for a L20 Barbarian I am playing, but the non-lethal damage and will save or possibly attack party members has kept me from commiting to it. For most players I think the chance of attacking another group member is deterent enough.
From a GM perspective I had one guy play one in a high level game, dwarf barbarian/battlerager/frenzied. The character was by far very impressive, but I think the fighters and dervish actually did more damage still. That character did lose control and attack a party member (happened to be an NPC) and nearly killed her. That made the elf bladesinger and dervish very upset. The berserker was weak from getting clobbered by a mirilith voulnerable. In the end they only had to threaten him because he came out of the frenzy in 1 round. Too bad he attacked the groups only cleric, so he recieved no healing from then on.
I would probably allow the class again if a player wanted it, but I would warn the player that the character will likely have a glorious but short career.
...Speaking of which, you're welcome for all the work I posted on options for your familiar...
Sorry about that. After Paizo used its Swallow Whole ability and ate 2 responses in a row, I just gave up. Nevertheless, thank you for the help.
-Kurocyn
After Paizo used its Swallow Whole ability and ate 2 responses in a row, I just gave up. Nevertheless, thank you for the help.
Yeah, it sucks when you're about to rescue your posts from cyberspace, only to find that "muscular action" has mysteriously closed the hole! Anyway, for some reason I take perverse pleasure in finding ways of cobbling together unique, flexible ideas out of the finite, rigid rules.
...for some reason I take perverse pleasure in finding ways of cobbling together unique, flexible ideas out of the finite, rigid rules.
You're not alone, I do as well. ^ ^
-Kurocyn
A new player to my group just created this type of character (with a little help from me). I had thought that the character would (as some have said above) have a "glorious but short" career and then the player would move on.
Just a reccomendation, do not allow this PrC in larger parties like mine. The extra attacks generated by the extra party members has been enough to end combat in the first or second round, long before the FB has had time to calm down. The result, "hey you guys look like enemies!". The resultant combat takes FAR longer than the actual combat encounter with the bad guys. After just one gaming session, I realised that my campaign will grind to a halt if I allow this to go on much longer. The character is FUN, but forces the other players to be constantly watching their backs, and that was not my intention when I started this campaign.
just my two coppers,
-Roth