Eldritch "energy"


3.5/d20/OGL


I would like a little feed back on a question that arose at our gaming table last night. Our group is playing Expedition to Castle Ravenloft and in Strahd's castle we ran across a trio of warlocks. The cleric proceeded to cast "protection from energy 12:eldritch" on the paladin. This was not allowed by the DM because a warlock's eldritch blast, although it is described as being a magical "energy" on page 7 CAr, is not one of the five energies listed under the protection from energy spell description on page 266 of the PHB.
Having played a warlock previously I have seen this type of question come up before about the warlock. It seems there are quite a few grey areas regarding his abilities. I was wondering if a few of you could shed some light or share your experiences.

Thanks Mucho

Bandit of LV

Scarab Sages

BanditofLV wrote:
...a warlock's eldritch blast, although it is described as being a magical "energy" on page 7 CAr, is not one of the five energies listed under the protection from energy spell description on page 266 of the PHB.

The DM is quite right, the spell used does not protect vs the warlock's energy.

The warlock's energy blast is 'munchkin-power' from the Dimension of Cheese.
Having said that, there is no reason the DM could not rule retroactively to allow exactly that choice.

The major problem with adding any new class, or magic system (such as the 'Psionics are Different' variant) to an existing game, is that it will not mesh with the rules previously being used.
If the warlock had been introduced in the PHB, then the core spells could possibly have been altered to include 'eldritch' energy in the list of possible resistances, or a separate spell could have been included to specifically resist it, much like shield protects against force effects.

Such a spell may exist in Complete Arcane, or the Spell Compendium, but unless all players and the DM are using those books, and have the time to read them, the game will be skewed in favour of the new class/magic system. The warlock must be balanced by effects which negate his powers, just as surely as the wizard. You cannot cherry-pick single elements from any source, without causing lots of grief to the players or the game.

Dark Archive RPG Superstar 2013 Top 32

The warlock's eldritch blast is pure magical energy and cannot be protected against with resistance spells. The same thing is true for half of the energy involved in a flamestrike spell (half is fire, half is 'raw magical energy'). It simply cannot be protected against by conventional means.


I agree with you that there is a problem with the fact that a new pc class and abilities have been added to the core rules and that those same core rules have not been completely updated to incorprate that fact. Once again the challenge still remains that not only are the "Complete" set of books widely accepted at the majority of gaming tables, but also that an NPC such as a warlock is being used in a WotC product such as Expedition to Castle Ravenloft. I would not compare psionics, rarely used if ever in a WotC product, to the eldritch blast.
So going forward is there a way to protect, shield, or negate the attacks of a warlocks blast? Should it's "magical energy" be recognized as a true energy?

Thanks Mucho,

Bandit of LV


Now there is a good arguement Fatespinner. I am looking for a reason why. The fact that some people don't like the class or the rules does not satisfy, but I do like your reasoning.

Thanks Mucho

Bandit of LV

Scarab Sages

There's no problem with the warlock or his eldritch blast. Sure, they seem powerful early on, but falter greatly in later levels against actual casters.

That said, there's no way to block other 'vanilla' magical damage, why should there be for the warlocks? Disintegrate, Finger of Death, Magic Missile. Sure, they may offer saves, but in terms of the damage taken, think of the Warlock's blast in the same vein.

All in all, it's not worth worrying about. Even a regular warrior can easily out damage the Warlock, and they have a lot more hit points as well.

Scarab Sages

BanditofLV wrote:

Now there is a good arguement Fatespinner. I am looking for a reason why. The fact that some people don't like the class or the rules does not satisfy, but I do like your reasoning.

Thanks Mucho

Bandit of LV

The reason why is simple. Resist energy protects against: "This abjuration grants a creature limited protection from damage of whichever one of five energy types you select: acid, cold, electricity, fire, or sonic. "

As none of those five types are listed with Eldritch Blast, it is none of them. Really, any 'typeless' magic damage is magic 'energy'. It's just another way to describe it.


Karui Kage wrote:
That said, there's no way to block other 'vanilla' magical damage, why should there be for the warlocks? Disintegrate, Finger of Death, Magic Missile. Sure, they may offer saves, but in terms of the damage taken, think of the Warlock's blast in the same vein.

Death ward protects against finger of death, and shield or a brooch of shielding negates magic missile damage. In a campaign featuring a lot of warlocks, in the long term some wizard sooner or later will research a protection from eldritch blast spell. There's no such thing as a "this is super-powerful ultra-damage that is impossible to negate no matter how many things you try because it's just better than everything in the entire universe." I agree 100% that protection from energy doesn't work... but that doesn't mean that NOTHING ever can.

Scarab Sages

Kirth Gersen wrote:
In a campaign featuring a lot of warlocks, in the long term some wizard sooner or later will research a protection from eldritch blast spell. There's no such thing as a "this is super-powerful ultra-damage that is impossible to negate no matter how many things you try because it's just better than everything in the entire universe." I agree 100% that protection from energy doesn't work... but that doesn't mean that NOTHING ever can.

That raises three questions:

1. What type of defense should the spell eldritch protection offer?

2. What level should the spell be?

3. Why is this in Pathfinder General Discussion?

Scarab Sages

Kirth Gersen wrote:
Karui Kage wrote:
That said, there's no way to block other 'vanilla' magical damage, why should there be for the warlocks? Disintegrate, Finger of Death, Magic Missile. Sure, they may offer saves, but in terms of the damage taken, think of the Warlock's blast in the same vein.
Death ward protects against finger of death, and shield or a brooch of shielding negates magic missile damage. In a campaign featuring a lot of warlocks, in the long term some wizard sooner or later will research a protection from eldritch blast spell. There's no such thing as a "this is super-powerful ultra-damage that is impossible to negate no matter how many things you try because it's just better than everything in the entire universe." I agree 100% that protection from energy doesn't work... but that doesn't mean that NOTHING ever can.

Sorry, I guess I phrased that improperly. I wasn't trying to say that those specific spells couldn't be blocked, just that there was nothing that blocked 'vanilla' magical damage in general (not specific spells), except for maybe one of those rings that can absorb spell levels, that could work for a time.

Scarab Sages

Ungoded wrote:


3. Why is this in Pathfinder General Discussion?

Very good question.


Eldritch blast is a spell-like ability and, if I recall correctly, has a spell-level equivalent (which can change based on any eldritch essence invocation used with it). As such, it could potentially be blocked by globe of invulnerability and similar magic. Don't have my Complete Arcane here at work to verify, though...

EDIT: Ah, found the errata clarifying spell-level...

"An eldritch blast is the equivalent of a 1st-level spell. If you apply a blast shape or eldritch essence invocation to your eldritch blast (see page 130), your eldritch blast uses the level equivalent of the shape or essence."

So, lesser globe of invulnerability is enough to block an eldrith blast with no blast shape or eldritch essence invocation applied. Any other magic that blocks spell-like abilities could likewise apply (bastion of good from BoED for instance). Spell resistance also applies (and one might make an argument that spell immunity could thus be used against an eldritch blast).

Dark Archive Contributor

It's far better to think of the Warlock as a spell-flavoured archer than a true Arcane caster. If the Archer uses +1 arrows, there aren't a lot of ways to block it. Same with Eldritch Blast.


Well, except the archer is actually going to be more successful in situations where magic might fail. Facing an iron golem, for instance. The golem's immunity to magic shuts down eldritch blast entirely.

Of course, the warlock doesn't run out of ammo...


erian_7 wrote:

Well, except the archer is actually going to be more successful in situations where magic might fail. Facing an iron golem, for instance. The golem's immunity to magic shuts down eldritch blast entirely.

Of course, the warlock doesn't run out of ammo...

Yeah, and how many adamantine arrows does your typical archer carry?


Ungoded wrote:
1. What type of defense should the spell eldritch protection offer?

Good questions. Probably a simple reduction in damage, comparable to resist energy or protection from energy. Actually, isn't there a spell in Spell Compendium or somewhere that protects against force damage? I'd look that one up and use it as a model.

Ungoded wrote:
2. What level should the spell be?

See above. Protecting against eldritch blast is kind of like protecting from force damage, so the level could be comparable, if the effects are.

Ungoded wrote:
3. Why is this in Pathfinder General Discussion?

That's a VERY good question. I haven't the least idea in the world, I assure you.


Kirth Gersen wrote:
erian_7 wrote:

Well, except the archer is actually going to be more successful in situations where magic might fail. Facing an iron golem, for instance. The golem's immunity to magic shuts down eldritch blast entirely.

Of course, the warlock doesn't run out of ammo...

Yeah, and how many adamantine arrows does your typical archer carry?

When I play an archer, at least 20 (and 20 silver, 20 cold iron)...


erian_7 wrote:
When I play an archer, at least 20 (and 20 silver, 20 cold iron)...

Obviously your DM doesn't keep track of bulk (or noise of all that rattling...), unless you've got the ever-popular quiver of Ehlonna!


Kirth Gersen wrote:
erian_7 wrote:
When I play an archer, at least 20 (and 20 silver, 20 cold iron)...
Obviously your DM doesn't keep track of bulk (or noise of all that rattling...), unless you've got the ever-popular quiver of Ehlonna!

Now what kind of archer wouldn't have the "efficient quiver" (to properly genericize the name)?!? I mean come one, you've got slots for your extra bows when the inevitable sunder attempt succeeds, plus storage for ammo, plus a back-up spot or two for spears/javelins. All for the low, low price of 1,800 gold! Throw in a handy haversack and you can carry bundles of arrows (with the tips capped so as not to puncture, of course) quietly and without encumberance.

Now of course we're going far afield from the original question, so back to task. It's easy enough to block an eldritch blast already once the party hits 7th level. Making a spell that specifically blocks just that energy attack--I'd place that at level 2 (if absorbing a certain amount of damage) or 3 (if totally blocking damage).


erian_7 wrote:
Now what kind of archer wouldn't have the "efficient quiver" (to properly genericize the name)?!? I mean come one, you've got slots for your extra bows when the inevitable sunder attempt succeeds, plus storage for ammo, plus a back-up spot or two for spears/javelins.

And if you're dating Paris Hilton, she'll fit neatly into one of the javelin spots as well.


Kirth Gersen wrote:
And if you're dating Paris Hilton, she'll fit neatly into one of the javelin spots as well.

:^D

I don't know if I'd consider that a benefit or a curse, though...


erian_7 wrote:


I don't know if I'd consider that a benefit or a curse, though...

She's like that -1 sword you just can't get rid of without a remove curse spell (Sebastian pointed out that break enchantment won't work). Even if you send her to jail, she's out in a few days, so I doubt even an imprisonmentspell would be of much help.

Shadow Lodge

erian_7 wrote:
Now of course we're going far afield from the original question, so back to task. It's easy enough to block an eldritch blast already once the party hits 7th level. Making a spell that specifically blocks just that energy attack--I'd place that at level 2 (if absorbing a certain amount of damage) or 3 (if totally blocking damage).

By that level, most warlocks have taken one of the blast powers that alter the damage caused to elemental damage of some kind (especially as they usually have secondary effects).

I really don't think that you need to actually create a spell just to specifically combat eldritch blast. Mage armor will help against it (I think it still counts towards your AC on a touch attack), and having a good touch AC in general would help...


PsionicFox wrote:

By that level, most warlocks have taken one of the blast powers that alter the damage caused to elemental damage of some kind (especially as they usually have secondary effects).

I really don't think that you need to actually create a spell just to specifically combat eldritch blast. Mage armor will help against it (I think it still counts towards your AC on a touch attack), and having a good touch AC in general would help...

If they convert the blast to any of the elemental types, existing spells will block it readily enough.

You are correct that a higher Touch AC is a good way to defeat eldritch blast, but mage armor won't help. It provides an Armor bonus to AC, which doesn't count vs. touch attacks. Shield likewise provides a bonus type that doesn't help Touch AC. You'll need to boost Dodge, Deflection, or some of the odder ones (Insight, Luck, Sacred). Armor, Shield, and Natural Armor bonuses never apply vs. Touch attacks, nor do any Enhancement bonuses related to these three types.

I agree that a spell specifically to defeat eldritch blast is likely a bit too focused, at least for my tastes, as it'd be an almost wasted spell for most games (only useful when a warlock shows up, and even then they can bypass the spell using an eldritch essence invocation). However, if warlocks are a prominent opponent in a campaign, I could see how such a spell would evolve.

Scarab Sages

erian_7 wrote:
You are correct that a higher Touch AC is a good way to defeat eldritch blast, but mage armor won't help. It provides an Armor bonus to AC, which doesn't count vs. touch attacks.

It is a Force effect, and the bonus it provides counts against incorporeal touch attacks. Not useful vs. Eldritch Blast.


Isn't it OBVIOUS why this is in the Pathfinder disscusion thread??? I rolled a 1 on my spot check and put it here by mistake. :)

Bandit of LV

Paizo Employee Senior Software Developer

Moved thread to D&D forum. You can always email me at webmaster@paizo.com if you need a thread moved.

Scarab Sages

BanditofLV wrote:
I agree with you that there is a problem with the fact that a new pc class and abilities have been added to the core rules and that those same core rules have not been completely updated to incorprate that fact... ...I would not compare psionics, rarely used if ever in a WotC product, to the eldritch blast.

Just to be clear, it's not psionics that are the problem, per se, since from my (admittedly short) glance, the powers would seem to mostly be effective only on the caster or a small number of opponents.

The problem arises when using the rule variant "Psionics are Different", which proposes that magic cannot affect, or protect against psionics, and vice versa.

Although many might say it's fair, since it cuts both ways, in practice, a group of PCs or NPCs which include a psionic character will dominate an opposing group that does not (even one of higher average level), since it is always possible for the psionic character to be given anti-magic protection by a friendly wizard or cleric, whereas his opponents would need a psionic ally to protect themselves against him, assuming this were even possible, since, as stated before, many of the beneficial effects would seem to be 'caster-only'.

The Expanded Psionics Handbook does recognise these problems, and warns that any game using this variant should be prepared to see the psionic PCs have a disproportionate effect on the campaign.
Such a rule would only really make sense in a campaign where the psionic characters and monsters are the beachhead for an otherworldly invasion, or the newly-rediscovered remnants of a long-lost civilisation. For a campaign with any other premise, it inconcievable that no steps would be taken, by wizards guilds and temples, to research this new power source, and how it can be harnessed or nullified.

So, that is the sense in which I compared psionics to warlocks, that if one assumes such classes are known of, then one cannot justify there being no attempt to protect against them, and a DM should allow anti-eldritch zones, dispels, suppression fields, rays, etc AND/OR allow a backdated revision of existing spells, such as resist energy to include a sixth energy type.

Community / Forums / Gamer Life / Gaming / D&D / 3.5/d20/OGL / Eldritch "energy" All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.
Recent threads in 3.5/d20/OGL