Print On Demand


Paizo General Discussion

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Tranquilis wrote:
Elves of Golarian Pathfinder Companion is going for $105.00 used on Amazon.

Wow! I'll sell mine to anyone who wants it for $50.

Grand Lodge

Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
BigDTBone wrote:
Tranquilis wrote:
Elves of Golarian Pathfinder Companion is going for $105.00 used on Amazon.
Wow! I'll sell mine to anyone who wants it for $50.

Pricing algorithms run amuck.

-Skeld


Skeld wrote:
BigDTBone wrote:
Tranquilis wrote:
Elves of Golarian Pathfinder Companion is going for $105.00 used on Amazon.
Wow! I'll sell mine to anyone who wants it for $50.

Pricing algorithms run amuck.

-Skeld

So you're saying you want to buy it? :)

Grand Lodge

Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
BigDTBone wrote:
Skeld wrote:
BigDTBone wrote:
Tranquilis wrote:
Elves of Golarian Pathfinder Companion is going for $105.00 used on Amazon.
Wow! I'll sell mine to anyone who wants it for $50.

Pricing algorithms run amuck.

-Skeld

So you're saying you want to buy it? :)

Lol. Nope, sorry. I still have my subscription copy. ;)

-Skeld

Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber
Mark Moreland wrote:
Obviously I don't work for Paizo,

I love how the forum software updates post headers and leads to amusing situations like this post. :)


Cpt_kirstov wrote:
Avonthalonus wrote:

Print on Demand is the future. There's really no financial reason for Paizo not to be offering it. It's almost like making YouTube videos; anyone who can make a pdf can publish a book. All the Paizo pdfs are done already, they could republish them instantly. It really is a one click solution. If I recall correctly, the main impediment for Paizo to republish out of print works is the cost of another print run. Non-issue for print on demand, you print only as many copies as are actually purchased.

The only trick would be finding a publisher that offers POD with the kind of high-quality color that we've come to expect from Paizo, but there are already several online companies offering many color solutions and that automatically distribute to Amazon too.

Even if the POD cost is high because of ink cost and all the middlemen involved, if someone wants to pay $60 for an Adventure Path reprint, why not let them? It's win-win all the way.

Financial reasons:

1) None of them offer the print and paper quality paizo requires (in one of the panels at Gencon, I think it was Wes who talks about this)

2) They use different formatting/layout than the printer in China, therefore graphic designers and editors would have to layout twice as many products a month plus do previous products that the majority of the audience has already and won't want.

3) Because of number 2, you'd need to be guaranteed enough revenue to justify at least 3-4 more jobs. And since most of the product that would be POD is sold out, you cannot do that on the limited audience that is left.

Points 2) & 3) are legitimate. I concede those. Point 1) is not. The quality is there now.


Vic Wertz wrote:
Honestly, my suggest to folks who want printed copies of our PDFs—find a local service bureau, and ask them to print and bind your PDF. That way, you're in control of your own personal balancing act between quality and cost, and we don't have to stand behind a product that's both too expensive and not good enough for our standards.

Dear Vic Wertz,

The above statement is huge. It comes from four years ago, so I want to ask officially and on record:

Does this mean that if a customer already owns the PDF for an out-of-print work from Paizo, that they have the company's permission to print a single copy for personal use using whatever means they prefer, including POD websites like LULU, so long as they do not sell it or make it publicly available, and have only one physical copy at a time (in case the one they made gets destroyed)?

Thank you for your response.


Avonthalonus wrote:
Vic Wertz wrote:
Honestly, my suggest to folks who want printed copies of our PDFs—find a local service bureau, and ask them to print and bind your PDF. That way, you're in control of your own personal balancing act between quality and cost, and we don't have to stand behind a product that's both too expensive and not good enough for our standards.

Dear Vic Wertz,

The above statement is huge. It comes from four years ago, so I want to ask officially and on record:

Does this mean that if a customer already owns the PDF for an out-of-print work from Paizo, that they have the company's permission to print a single copy for personal use using whatever means they prefer, including POD websites like LULU, so long as they do not sell it or make it publicly available, and have only one physical copy at a time (in case the one they made gets destroyed)?

Thank you for your response.

I found the permission statement on the FAQ. Forgive me I am new to the forums. Please disregard my question as it has already been answered last year.

For others reading, the permission statement can be found here:

http://paizo.com/paizo/faq#v5748eaic9r2z

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Friendly Free Legal Advice. Otherwise Worth Hard $$$:

I'd read carefully the Terms of Service of Lulu (or any other PoD service for that matter) to make sure you don't accidentally bring a bucket of pain and legal costs upon yourself.


Looks like "no".

I'm not a lawyer (or a strangely helpful sentient bag of devouring) and not speaking on behalf of Paizo, but if you scroll up from that...

Lulu Legaleeze:

3. Content

In the event that you post or upload to the Site in compliance with Section 2, or otherwise submit to or through Lulu as part of your use of the Site, any materials including, without limitation, text, photographs and other images, graphics, videos, visuals, sounds, data, files, links and other materials (collectively, “Content”), you will retain ownership of such Content. You hereby grant us and our designees a worldwide, non-exclusive, sub-licensable (through multiple tiers), assignable, royalty-free (except as otherwise agreed during the online publishing process) right to use, reproduce, distribute (through multiple tiers) and publicly display such Content, solely in connection with the Site. Should you decide to limit the access to and distribution of your Content, we will use commercially reasonable means to prevent such access and distribution. However, we cannot guarantee that these means will work all of the time.

... it seems relatively clear that Lulu is probably not the best option as you are not the IP owner.

In fact (looking around a bit), most print-on-demand online publishers assume that anyone using their services are the content owners and generally have a minimum print run of about two dozen. Your best bet is probably to find a local print shop and explain to them that you have a limited license from the IP owner to print a single copy of some of their works in .pdf. Most small print shops will be much more likely to work with you in the hopes for repeat business than the larger POD places online such as Lulu, who are targeting a different customer base than what you are looking for.

-TimD

EDIT: Ninja'd by the sentient bag itself by 25 seconds!


Ok, well that's that. I didn't check if they were protected. I emailed Vic Wertz earlier the question to see if they would be ok with it, but since Lulu is not going to let you print it anyway because of the electronic protection, it's not gonna be possible even if I get permission.

Thanks.

P.S. My apologies to Vic, I had no idea what a service bureau was, I thought it was some vague term. But it does mean something very specific.


Interestingly enough, in civilized countries you can't actually agree to dispense rights you do not have. Contracts that have clauses which are not legally binding aren't valid. If I were to enter into an agreement to purchase a house with the understanding that in return for $X I own the house plus half of the neighbor's house, it is my problem when I start taking things from the house next door. I can pursue breach-of-contract proceedings and/or fraud, but I can't (legally) take stuff from next door.

Similarly, a PoD service that has ToS which include acquisition or usage of materials a customer submits puts them in the position of assuming they have rights they do not. They are no less in violation of Paizo's copyright than any other infringer because they did not do due diligence to ensure that you - the customer - had the authority to release extended rights to them. In the end, they have your money, you have your printed copy, and any use they make of Paizo's materials are illegal. If they are subsequently send a C&D or DMCA takedown notice by Paizo and don't like it, they would have to pursue similar breach-of-contract litigation with you - the customer - for misrepresenting that you had rights you don't. Two words: as if.

What Gorbacz is pointing out is that you are legally liable for the risk that such a thing entails. The PoD vendor could elect to take you to court for (imagined) loss from not being allowed to jerk Paizo around. That's pretty likely to be down in small-claims-court conditions, but there is still a non-zero risk involved. If a psychotic PoD company decided to spend massive quantities denying Paizo their C&D/DMCA takedown, they wouldn't be unreasonable to try to pass that expense along to you - the customer.

Really, the point is that while the risk is low, the potential consequence is high. And dealing with loser PoD companies that even ask to any any rights whatsoever beyond the single printing requested is encouraging really, really horrible people to continue being really, really horrible.

Paizo Glitterati Robot

Removed a few posts and replies. Let's leave personal jabs out of this thread please.


I received an answer from Vic today. For what it's worth, he says they have no problem with customers using Lulu to print their personal copy.

That said, if a pdf is password protected, it might simply be automatically rejected as per Lulu's FAQ; I don't know, I haven't tried.


Avonthalonus wrote:

I received an answer from Vic today. For what it's worth, he says they have no problem with customers using Lulu to print their personal copy.

That said, if a pdf is password protected, it might simply be automatically rejected as per Lulu's FAQ; I don't know, I haven't tried.

I have never used Lulu, I use local copy shops to print out my stuff.

However, password protected?

I don't think any of the PDF's I've ever gotten from Paizo have been password protected.

They all are watermarked (and have my name on them in the PDF)...but I don't think I've ever had to ever enter a password to look at any of them.


GreyWolfLord wrote:
Avonthalonus wrote:

I received an answer from Vic today. For what it's worth, he says they have no problem with customers using Lulu to print their personal copy.

That said, if a pdf is password protected, it might simply be automatically rejected as per Lulu's FAQ; I don't know, I haven't tried.

I have never used Lulu, I use local copy shops to print out my stuff.

However, password protected?

I don't think any of the PDF's I've ever gotten from Paizo have been password protected.

They all are watermarked (and have my name on them in the PDF)...but I don't think I've ever had to ever enter a password to look at any of them.

If you open one in full acrobat and start poking around you'll find the password protection pretty quick. :) If you're just using reader you'll probably never notice it.


GreyWolfLord wrote:
Avonthalonus wrote:

I received an answer from Vic today. For what it's worth, he says they have no problem with customers using Lulu to print their personal copy.

That said, if a pdf is password protected, it might simply be automatically rejected as per Lulu's FAQ; I don't know, I haven't tried.

I have never used Lulu, I use local copy shops to print out my stuff.

However, password protected?

I don't think any of the PDF's I've ever gotten from Paizo have been password protected.

They all are watermarked (and have my name on them in the PDF)...but I don't think I've ever had to ever enter a password to look at any of them.

You don't need to know the password to read it. But if you start changing the properties of the document, trying to extract things, etc. in a full pdf editor you will get a pop-up asking you for the password. There are many customizable security settings of varying degrees based on what the author wants to allow the reader to be able to do. In this case the security settings allow printing, so when you print it you won't be asked for the password either.


I don't normally go poking around the PDFs, I just have them to read and run stuff off of, so if there's password protection beyond that, I wouldn't know.

Luckily, there's nothing there that stops the printing of a hardcopy fi one wanted it, and nothing stopping me from reading it, so I don't really have any problems with it.

What type of stuff would you do with the PDF beyond running your game from it (and printing off a hardcopy if you wanted to run it that way) that would warrant you running into passworded stuff or something anyways?


GreyWolfLord wrote:

I don't normally go poking around the PDFs, I just have them to read and run stuff off of, so if there's password protection beyond that, I wouldn't know.

Luckily, there's nothing there that stops the printing of a hardcopy fi one wanted it, and nothing stopping me from reading it, so I don't really have any problems with it.

What type of stuff would you do with the PDF beyond running your game from it (and printing off a hardcopy if you wanted to run it that way) that would warrant you running into passworded stuff or something anyways?

Generally, artwork extraction. Or cutting pages out (or in, if you need a bestiary entry for example), basically any kind of editing.

President, Jon Brazer Enterprises

Well, if Paizo ever went POD, it would be a heck of alot easier to get them print books. Right now, I have to upload it to DriveThruRPG, test print it, make revisions, repeat until I'm happy, then order copies and ship to Paizo.

I don't mind doing the order test copies twice (once for DriveThru and once for Paizo) if it means I don't have to guess how good a book is going to be and have copies shipped to Paizo. If they can print copies themselves (or partner with a company to handle that for them), I'd upload files right away.

Liberty's Edge

BigDTBone wrote:

Generally, artwork extraction. Or cutting pages out (or in, if you need a bestiary entry for example), basically any kind of editing.

You can extract artwork. I haven't tried pulling out individual pages other than copying text to a word processor.

Paizo Employee Chief Technical Officer

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BigDTBone wrote:
Vic Wertz wrote:
Tinkergoth wrote:
Steve Geddes wrote:

How does it work, exactly? Do you just upload a PDF and they post you a printed copy?

Or do you need to tinker with the file(s) a bit?
From what I understand, the files given to the company are the same ones that would go to the printer when ordering a batch of books. They just keep them on file and print as required. I could be over simplifying it, but that's the way it was explained to me. So whatever format normal printers would want the files in, it'd be the same deal.
I can't speak for service bureaus that print one-shot PDFs for customers, but on a professional level, all printers, including PoD printers, require you to provide files made specifically for them, taking into account their particular printer's requirements for things like trim, bleed, creep, dot gain, total ink coverage, and the like.
Gosh, are TIC and dot gain really issues you guys are dealing with? The papers you guys use should be handling well over 300% TIC and coated paper basically got invented to combat dot gain. I hope your printers aren't giving you issues with these specs. I really hope apprehension over these issues aren't keeping you guy from pursuing domestic POD services.

We don't actually have to *think* about those specs—printers usually provide a pre-made setting file that we use when we output a print-ready PDF for them. (For all I know, they set the dot gain at 0 these days.) But it does mean that we can't just take the file we made to target an offset press in China and send it to a PoD printer in the US. At best, you need a new setting file, and at worst, you need to adjust your page sizes and bleeds.


Vic Wertz wrote:
We don't actually have to *think* about those specs—printers usually provide a pre-made setting file that we use when we output a print-ready PDF for them. (For all I know, they set the dot gain at 0 these days.) But it does mean that we can't just take the file we made to target an offset press in China and send it to a PoD printer in the US. At best, you need a new setting file, and at worst, you need to adjust your page sizes and bleeds.

DriveThru use Lighting Source. And Lightning Source claim on this page that they do "Traditional Print Services • Offset Print Runs" and have the ability to switch seamlessly from digital printing to offset printing.

I wonder if Lightning Source have worked out how to go the other way yet.

DriveThru RPG seems to be leaping ahead with this technology. (And WotC seems to be doing their best to help DriveThru get ahead of Paizo.)

I was hoping that Paizo would be the company taking the lead on this several years back.

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